[Suggestion] A reveal skill for thieves

Hey everyone,I am a 4k hours thief main WvW main and I have the (somewhat reasonable) suggestion that thieves should have a skill to reveal others in sPvP and WvW.The main focus is the not so rare thief vs. thief matchup.

The reason is simple: Everyone knows how thief duels often end up. It's a competition about openers and many thieves stick to tiring stealth stacking.If thieves had a ranged skill that puts the reveal debuff on the enemy, thief duels would get way more interesting. In sPvP as well as WvW thieves are often the counter to other thieves only because they are the only ones to keep up with their mobility (ofc there are enough other counters in duels).I think this would help to reduce the incentive to play stealth camping builds (Deadeye still has their anti-reveal elite but that's its purpose), it adds a "skillful" component to stealth fights and overall balances out the stealth mechanic.

By no means should the duration of the reveal be too long nor should the cooldown be too short. It would be just nice to have some counter to stealth as a thief other than deliberately getting hit during stealth stacking in a smoke field. Also I don't think other classes would suffer from this addition.

I think Signet of Shadows, Distracting Daggers, any of the poisons or one of the preparations could be appropriate candidates for this change.I'd like to hear your opinions.

Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.

that on the other hand would be a bit extreme. the aim of my suggestion was, that it is actually realisable.. but if it was sarcasm... then jokes on you.

I always thought that thief should have a reveal skill.

Honestly I thought it would be a good thing for Rending Shade to apply bonus reveal on targets with no boons.

But there are a lot of balance questions that come up with being able to apply reveal. So if we did get it there might be space to give reveal to a preparation rather than a trait.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.

That's far too much. Imagine you need to spike a teamfight in sPvP and you get auto-revealed from behind two walls because enemy Thief just either ported in or was somehow present, so no more stabby stab for you and your teammates.

Unless by see "see all stealthed characters" you didn't mean an actual reveal but a visible target that only the thief can see.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.

I like this idea alot but it doesn't make much sense.Invisibility isn't like stepping into another plain, but just removing themselves from sight.

I think it would be better for Stealthed characters see each other within 300 radius instead.Think of it like 2 people trying to hide in the same area at once during hide and seek and they just awkwardly stare at each other.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 @"Yasai.3549" Seems like your stealth "solution" would just cause thieves to have mandatory mirror matches with a profession specific minigame of thief tag before they can actually participate in anything else. I was never a fan of having a class just to "counter itself".

@Sobx.1758 said:@Sir Vincent III.1286 @"Yasai.3549" Seems like your stealth "solution" would just cause thieves to have mandatory mirror matches with a profession specific minigame of thief tag before they can actually participate in anything else. I was never a fan of having a class just to "counter itself".

Nah it isn't a stealth solution more than transforming Thief to be their own counter.We don't know if Anet is gonna even nerf Stealth or find a solution for it, it would be nice to simply make the one class that abuses it solve the problem on its own.

Since the direction of these nerfs seem to be pushing team comps into a pseudo "trinity" sort of fashion, why not just double down on it?Popular builds right now feature Bunker FB for support, a Necro for DPS, maybe a SB to boon rip and CC people, might as well force both teams to field a Thief to do Thief things.

Everyone knows the true solution to Stealth is to make it cost 1 gold per second :^)

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:@Sir Vincent III.1286 @Yasai.3549 Seems like your stealth "solution" would just cause thieves to have mandatory mirror matches with a profession specific minigame of thief tag before they can actually participate in anything else. I was never a fan of having a class just to "counter itself".

I disagree, I always thought that making a class just to counter itself makes no sense at all. Seriously, what's the point here? If the class is so strong that it needs the counter so badly then doubling down on having that same class countering itself is illogical to me. If stealth mechanic is too strong (it isn't), then make changes to the mechanic itself. I still think the only problem with stealth is the duration (possibility of making it perma or near perma) and that's what we should aim at, not "just negate stealth altogether or get kittened LUL".

Since the direction of these nerfs seem to be pushing team comps into a pseudo "trinity" sort of fashion, why not just double down on it?Popular builds right now feature Bunker FB for support, a Necro for DPS, maybe a SB to boon rip and CC people, might as well force both teams to field a Thief to do Thief things.

Because as far as I'm concerned having 3 viable classes in a given mode isn't a desired state in the first place. "Doubling down" on something that's inherently bad for the game doesn't seem to be reasonable.

Everyone knows the true solution to Stealth is to make it cost 1 gold per second :^)

^_^Nerf the 1% pls

I'm actually fine with thief not having a reveal tbh. Sure, thief vs thief is pretty much decided on openers, but stealth traps and tricks are still a thing in WvW, and most PvP thieves don't stealth for that long anyways.

That said, I'm only ok with it as long as mesmers don't get reveal. If they get it, thief for sure ought to have it too.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.

You won't get revealed. Revealed is deleted from the game at this point. Only the enemy Thief can see you (and as a Thief you can see them), but you're still in stealth. So if they have no Thief, you're good at sneaking in undetected.

@Sobx.1758 said:@Sir Vincent III.1286 @"Yasai.3549" Seems like your stealth "solution" would just cause thieves to have mandatory mirror matches with a profession specific minigame of thief tag before they can actually participate in anything else. I was never a fan of having a class just to "counter itself".

Spellbreaker, for example, can participate in this with their Sight beyond sight, but instead of applying Revealed, they can simply see anyone stealthed, either transparent or shadowy form.

It gives a counter against stealth but does not shutdown the whole Shadow Arts traitline.

The bottom line is, Thief will have the innate ability to see all things hidden which includes (and not limited to) stealth, traps, and preparations. Thief should also have the ability to disarm traps and preparations by pressing the interact button.

Thief is already the counter to thief.

I don't think that bringing more thieves with cheesy mobility to counter the cheesy 90% stealth uptime of other thieves is a great idea.

• What would you achieve with a reveal on teef besides the fact that deadeye with anti reveal will become more common?!
• If only thieves could see other thieves in stealth, that would be the most stupid thing the game has ever seen. Not a single class has such an advantage over another class (or the same class in this case).

Yeah it's weird that other classes have access to reveal but the thief doesn't. Maybe revealed can be added to Scorpion Wire?

@Valar Dotalis.6409 said:Yeah it's weird that other classes have access to reveal but the thief doesn't. Maybe revealed can be added to Scorpion Wire?

Adding reveal to a targeted skill that's not even a tethered skill seems counter intuitive.

Thief is already a counter to other thieves. Adding reveal would be just a solution for lazy thieves.

Btw, people need to stop making complaints regarding stealth coming for WvW.This is just stupid. What is the player on stealth doing that contributes for the game mode? Is he killing players? Scouting? Taking down gates?

"Oh but the thief running away on stealth is annoying". No one cares if player X or Y is annoying. Unless the player on stealth can take down a tower by himself no one should care about what you are doing. And if thieve are really killing lords by themselves using stealth, the one that needs a revealed skill are the NPCs, not other thieves.

Better yet, we shouldn't be able to stealth as frequently as we currently can anyway. Reveal skills wouldn't even need to be in the game at that point.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.The bottom line is, Thief will have the innate ability to see all things hidden which includes (and not limited to) stealth, traps, and preparations. Thief should also have the ability to disarm traps and preparations by pressing the interact button.

This is the way. Even if it requires a Grandmaster trait in Shadow Arts to balance it out.

I also advocate for the ability for a Thief to "hide in plain sight" by remaining motionless for several seconds.

And to go all out, I would suggest that striking a Stealthed target should grant/extend Stealth to the striker, not causing the striker to be Revealed. Thus leading to long, epic duels in Stealth where only the actual participants can see each other.

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.The bottom line is, Thief will have the innate ability to see all things hidden which includes (and not limited to) stealth, traps, and preparations. Thief should also have the ability to disarm traps and preparations by pressing the interact button.

It actually isn't. If there's a problem here, then this doesn't solve it in the slightest. Having a class needed to counter itself is pretty stupid in the first place.And If there's a need to tone down a mechanic, then toning it down removing it for one class out of 9 is not a solution in the slightest.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.The bottom line is, Thief will have the innate ability to see all things hidden which includes (and not limited to) stealth, traps, and preparations. Thief should also have the ability to disarm traps and preparations by pressing the interact button.

Revealed is problematic, removing it solves that problem.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.The bottom line is, Thief will have the innate ability to see all things hidden which includes (and not limited to) stealth, traps, and preparations. Thief should also have the ability to disarm traps and preparations by pressing the interact button.

That's not what he quoted and as you can see he picked different parts from different posts not including the ones he didn't want. Not that "spellbreaker for example can participate in stealth games by equipping the skill" changes a lot here for me.

And If there's a need to tone down a mechanic, then

toning it down

removing it for

one class out of 9

is not a solution in the slightest

No, not really. To both of these statements :DBasically this thread and your proposed changes are suggesting that stealth is too strong and need a counter. What you're proposing here doesn't solve the potential problem, thief still will be balanced with stealth in mind, except this time the stealth will be stronger against classes/buidls without "former reveal" and nullified against builds with "former reveal". Also consistently nullified against other thiefs. This is by far not a solution to anything, that's just making stealth mechanic more polarized depending on what you play.Solving a problem would be making the mechanic more consistent as a whole instead of picking "you either have x and you win or you don't and you lose" route. Your solution doesn't balance the mechanic, it just decides who can participate and who can't.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Enough creating mechanics around Revealed and just let Thieves see all stealth characters within 900 range. No need for Revealed whatsoever.The bottom line is, Thief will have the innate ability to see all things hidden which includes (and not limited to) stealth, traps, and preparations. Thief should also have the ability to disarm traps and preparations by pressing the interact button.

And If there's a need to tone down a mechanic, then

toning it down

removing it for

one class out of 9

is not a solution in the slightest

Revealed has a fundamental problematic function: Shuts down the whole Shadow Arts trait line by preventing re-stealth for a certain amount of time.

I don't see stealth too strong at all and I don't want any counter to it. Detecting/seeing hidden/stealth is not a counter, it's just a tool -- Revealed is a counter and a very hard and debilitating one too. I don't want it and have always been against it or any ideas that uses Revealed as a foundation.

Abolishing Revealed is the first step. Second, give Thieves the innate ability (no traits needed) to see/detect all hidden within 900 range.

Stacking stealth will not matter since other Thief and those profession that has tools to see/detect hidden will see/detect them without shutting down the whole Shadow Arts trait line. Using stealth attacks will simply drop the stealth.

Now if you're concern about those professions without stealth detecting tools, then that will be the profession's problem that the Devs need to address.

In fact, I don't really care if every professions has a stealth detecting tools as long as it doesn't shuts downs my whole Shadow Arts trait line. Flickering shadows will activate in stealth instead of when revealed.

Changes has to support the Shadow Arts, not suppress it.

Having permastealth and asking for reveal? Enough of that.

@"Sobx.1758" said:It actually isn't. If there's a problem here, then this doesn't solve it in the slightest. Having a class needed to counter itself is pretty stupid in the first place.And If there's a need to tone down a mechanic, then toning it down removing it for one class out of 9 is not a solution in the slightest.

Not sure which mechanic you're referring to. As for the Thief and its Stealth, it needs to be amped up instead of toned down.

Right now, the Thief hardly needs another Thief to counter it. Other professions can shut it down pretty well as far as combat goes (even without Reveal skills). And so what if it can see invisible enemies? It's not a hard threat to even visible enemies, so being able to see them in Stealth is hardly going to make it more of a threat to them... except to other Thieves (for example, a Sword/Pistol or Staff Thief would become more of a threat against a Dagger/Pistol or Rifle Thief).

The main issue is that the Thief is not the Master of Shadows as it should be. Not only should it have more baseline access to Stealth (F3 function for every Thief), but it should also have more control over and benefits from Stealth. Right now, it's one of the only professions that has absolutely no professional ability to Reveal others from Stealth. Even more so, it can't even Reveal itself on demand without either damaging something or exploiting Death's Judgment/Shadow Refuge. That's just silly.

The Thief is thematically supposed to be the undisputed King of Stealth. For it to not have every bit as much control over it as others have, that's just bad design. Others may hold some "aces and random cards here and there," but the Thief should have ownership of a "full deck." If Mesmers and Engineers want to play around in Stealth, that's fine... but they would be playing in the Thief's realm. Don't swim underwater if you don't want to get eaten by sharks.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I don't see stealth too strong at all and I don't want any counter to it. Detecting/seeing hidden/stealth is not a counter, it's just a tool -- Revealed is a counter and a very hard and debilitating one too. I don't want it and have always been against it or any ideas that uses Revealed as a foundation.......In fact, I don't really care if every professions has a stealth detecting tools as long as it doesn't shuts downs my whole Shadow Arts trait line.

Exactly this. It's bad enough that the entire Shadow Arts traitline is all but useless on-point in Conquest. What really is the Thief's advantage in PvP anyway? Mobility doesn't help one bit if there's nowhere to go because your team can't handle a 5v4.5 match. At least giving the Thief more advantage (or removing the disadvantages) when it comes to Stealth may provide a more useful role for it. It may not make it more lethal, but at least it could stop being as vulnerable. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.