Anti Boon Ball Meta Discussion

There is something wrong when over half a zerg raid is a support position. I think it is time to take off the training wheels of this new meta. Cloud around and snipe, snipe and more snipe. I tested it last night on my SB, works really well. Just need about 10ish high damage, and some high mobile specs and then just start sniping all the squishes. While the zergs are watching each other it's really easy to make this happen, just wait for the push then go for it. Apparently this current zerg can't make it, cant survive without at least 50% + of them being healbot support specs. I could be wrong about the kill order, but it seems that if you snipe the necros (barrier/well bots) (sorry necro mains, it'll be better in the end though)then it allows the other zerg to win really easy, since only one side has the corrupt, after that just move on to the scrappers and then Im not to sure, its usually doesn't take long after the first few go, mostly clean up after that. All ideas on ending the boon ball/ training wheels meta are welcome. Roamers will be incredible at this approach and also think of all the free bags. =)

You kill the revs first. Then necros. Then the rest will fall.

It's frowned upon but you can focus the commander too

Yeah, I don't think sniping commanders is a good thing for wvw, but sniping the necros first seemed to work very well.

@Crazy.6029 said:Yeah, I don't think sniping commanders is a good thing for wvw, but sniping the necros first seemed to work very well.

If ur toon is fast, the backline or stragglers are good targets too.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:Yeah, I don't think sniping commanders is a good thing for wvw, but sniping the necros first seemed to work very well.

Yeah, but what I'm really talking about is making the zerg crumble by having a few people just pick a few key classes. It works, did it last night for a couple of hours on reset, cant do it alone but takes 3-4 soulb and then some others roamer types. We just focused necros first mostly reapers now and then went for the scappers after and it was a crumble every time. Just gotta wait for the push. There was about 8ish of us clouding around doing it. It works. Without the corrupts they cant stop the other zergs now with the boon ball meta.

Its not really that simple. A proper solid boonball is nearly impervious to clouders due to permastab, constant healing, constant cleansing and reflects. To cloud them down you need at least 2x the numbers - which is kind of hard if its a thicc 70 man borderzerg.

Not to mention you need good people that know how to avoid the ball, while at the same time bringing lots of CC and especially pulls to break through stab and pull out voulnerable targets, plus enough of AoE to keep them suppressed.

On top of that you also need an enemy commander working "with" you, abandoning stragglers and not recognising the threat of the cloud before its too late and his numbers start to drop.

It works, sure - its always worked, we started using clouding ages ago when we needed to beat ye olde combo stack guilds. It just requires a level of independant player skill and awareness thats rarely there, due to the constant zerg indoctrination.

@"Crazy.6029" said:There is something wrong when over half a zerg raid is a support position. I think it is time to take off the training wheels of this new meta. Cloud around and snipe, snipe and more snipe. I tested it last night on my SB, works really well. Just need about 10ish high damage, and some high mobile specs and then just start sniping all the squishes. While the zergs are watching each other it's really easy to make this happen, just wait for the push then go for it. Apparently this current zerg can't make it, cant survive without at least 50% + of them being healbot support specs. I could be wrong about the kill order, but it seems that if you snipe the necros (barrier/well bots) (sorry necro mains, it'll be better in the end though)then it allows the other zerg to win really easy, since only one side has the corrupt, after that just move on to the scrappers and then Im not to sure, its usually doesn't take long after the first few go, mostly clean up after that. All ideas on ending the boon ball/ training wheels meta are welcome. Roamers will be incredible at this approach and also think of all the free bags. =)You talk about an entire group of players using "training wheels" when you are playing Longbow Ranger?Your post is nothing but hypothetical.If you think you have some kind of next-level zergbusting strat, where is your video?Where are your screenshots with Arc up?Your number 1 target got erased from the meta this week and your number 2 nullifies you with a toolbelt skill....and you don't even realize it.

By all means, let's hear more about how just sniping from max range on Longbow Rangers is going to end the current meta when you can't even get most of them to hide their minis.

Getting them down is not a problem, finishing off is.With warclaw stomp gone, you can chip away at downed hp but most heal back up.

they generally need to turn down the boon spam & overstacking quite a bit

A pick squad isn't anything new. Nor is it clouding. A good pick squad can certainly change the course of a fight. I dont just mean pickoff the commander either. Although it can derail a fight you usually get less kills as the squad will just bail. Targeting squishys and the back line are what a pick squad does best. Hit and run tactics to avoid the ball. Force regroups by pressuring the back line or tail.

It's a shame that you poisoned your own thread with those negative remarks against how other people play.

It seems like you can't lift the discussion out of that now, even if there actually is some merit to the discussion.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:It's a shame that you poisoned your own thread with those negative remarks against how other people play.

It seems like you can't lift the discussion out of that now, even if there actually is some merit to the discussion.

Wonderful attempt at derailment, but it is off topic. Can you contribute or do you have an opinion on how to counter this boon ball meta?

@Crazy.6029 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:It's a shame that you poisoned your own thread with those negative remarks against how other people play.

It seems like you can't lift the discussion out of that now, even if there actually is some merit to the discussion.

It's exactly what I'm saying. There are many ways to counter a tanky meta and among them is excelling at focused damage and that is possible to do from range. However, your bad attitude is not going to make people want to discuss it with you.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAw6lNwuYbMNWKO+LvPdA-zVRYBKGWMpBKBbnlIOjA-w

i theorycrafted this bomba build a while ago but never really got to try it out in an organized team.team comp: 1 quickness fb, 2 spb, 2 holo bombas. 2 teams of this could do some serious damage but you gotta hit them when they don't know you're there via stealth and ambush tactics. the key is actually to spread your bomb out since any squishies hit by nade barrage + shrapnel nade, PBM, and mine field + throw mine + holo 3/ 4 could all potentially one shot. make sure to spread bleeds with spb and fb too since that 15% crit chance is good and follow around the holo with a bubble to deny boons. ofc if one holo is spreading out their bomb you gotta make sure the other holos are too or else you get overlap which means you're hitting downs. this method is ideal when the enemy is stationary.

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAw6lNwuYbMNWKO+LvPdA-zVRYBKGWMpBKBbnlIOjA-w

i theorycrafted this bomba build a while ago but never really got to try it out in an organized team.team comp: 1 quickness fb, 2 spb, 2 holo bombas. 2 teams of this could do some serious damage but you gotta hit them when they don't know you're there via stealth and ambush tactics. the key is actually to spread your bomb out since any squishies hit by nade barrage + shrapnel nade, PBM, and mine field + throw mine (plus some extra) could all potentially one shot. make sure to spread bleeds with spb and fb too since that 15% crit chance is good and follow around the holo with a bubble to deny boons. ofc if one holo is spreading out their bomb you gotta make sure the other holos are too or else you get overlap which means you're hitting downs. this method is ideal when the enemy is stationary.

I definitely think it could work with more than just ranged classes, but you are absolutely right, they have to be distracted. Only way we were able to pull it off was because the enemy boon ball was just tunneling on our own zerg, which they have to do, because if the would focus us then the risk getting rolled by our own zerg. I did notice that sometimes we would hit the boon wall ourselves and not be able to drop them before the push through, but even then they were already damaged to the point that they went down as soon our zerg rolled over them. I think a lot of it has to do with the timing and distance between the 2 zergs. I think tonight Ill try a different spec to target first and see what happens.

i would love to see a 2 fb 2 temp 6 vault (or dps scrap) comp tagging along with main zerg lol. i find it kinda strange that there aren't many 10 mans tagging along. for some reason they call it nut hugging which is retarded, i mean if you don't have the numbers what the fuck are you gonna do? not play? a good 10 man of any yolo dps comp can make a big difference.

hell if your zerg is facing superior numbers then try to recruit 2+ 10 mans who are down to coordinate and zerg bust. dunno why but its always been zerg em down with 50% more numbers or run away.

When I bump into a large fight and I'm going to cover a small group or squad from a larger composition I feel like taking down Guardians and Firebrands takes some pressure off of our groups. Then I try to pull some revs and necros but I try to stay low profile and feel things out all the way through. If I cause panic too soon I might pop all the nukes and I don't know how well our groups react or if losing one or two can tank the whole fight in a few seconds so I have to read what kind of pace our side can maintain. I try to move, gesture, and alert to targets in a way that tells our groups to be ready to bounce and recover fast if we get blasted by something while at the same time cleaning up any opportunities I opened up to keep the other side from recovering. Sometimes though it feels like your side is knocking out all the right stuff and all the sudden you turn around from chasing off some ranger and you're melting with like 20 others.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:i would love to see a 2 fb 2 temp 6 vault (or dps scrap) comp tagging along with main zerg lol. i find it kinda strange that there aren't many 10 mans tagging along. for some reason they call it nut hugging which is kitten, i mean if you don't have the numbers what the kitten are you gonna do? not play? a good 10 man of any yolo dps comp can make a big difference.

hell if your zerg is facing superior numbers then try to recruit 2+ 10 mans who are down to coordinate and zerg bust. dunno why but its always been zerg em down with 50% more numbers or run away.

There's this too

1 mercy fb or tempest or Chrono or mercy warrior. Then 4 souldbeasts or 2 soul beasts 1 vine druid and 1 bomb engi. This way you got stealth too :3

I think a raid squad of 10 can do enough bs to harass the enemy

I mean we face mag a lot and they rain clouds on us. The way we counter it is to stick to the walls towers etc as not to be overrun at all sides.

It's just that some meta builds are so paper that it's hard to defend the squishes unless they add a little bit of defensive gear on.

Also the cloud lost a bit of strength because of the mount stomp loss. But I think a good banner warrior can probably do the job

Rangers and thieves randomly sniping the stragglers rarely do any impact to a battle.

Unless you do a second tag and actually do coordinated spikes , then you can do some real damage.

Maybe it's time to take the little kids toys aka SB and Thief away after they took away the toys of the necros?

The thing that I dislike the most about this Boon Ball meta, isn't just the fact that it promotes lazy game play by encouraging zergs to stack over half the raid with heal/boon bots and they can run around forever without being in any danger unless the come across another boon ball, but it seems like by doing this they are turning WvW in to Eotm. Nerf siege damage, make little resistance to flip objectives, buff boon ball squads so that big boon squads run around with very little danger, nerf boon rip/corrupt class to ensure long live the boon ball. So, basically, just run around forever flipping stuff without very much resistance unless other boon ball, just Ktrain and mow over smaller groups. Have they nerfed the walls yet or removed them? Maybe they should and just put a big bridge connecting the maps up to eotm. This might very well be the very lowest amount of effort needed to play without dying in wvw since its creation. If Anet wanted to nerf scourge then fine, but then buff the spell breaker up to at least keep the "I have the most boons so I win" meta in check.

@"Crazy.6029" said:The thing that I dislike the most about this Boon Ball meta, isn't just the fact that it promotes lazy game play by encouraging zergs to stack over half the raid with heal/boon bots and they can run around forever without being in any danger unless the come across another boon ball, but it seems like by doing this they are turning WvW in to Eotm. Nerf siege damage, make little resistance to flip objectives, buff boon ball squads so that big boon squads run around with very little danger, nerf boon rip/corrupt class to ensure long live the boon ball. So, basically, just run around forever flipping stuff without very much resistance unless other boon ball, just Ktrain and mow over smaller groups. Have they nerfed the walls yet or removed them? Maybe they should and just put a big bridge connecting the maps up to eotm. This might very well be the very lowest amount of effort needed to play without dying in wvw since its creation. If Anet wanted to nerf scourge then fine, but then buff the spell breaker up to at least keep the "I have the most boons so I win" meta in check.

The game play isn't lazy. It's a cohesive group of people with synergistic builds cooperating together. Getting rid of boons won't make your tiny group suddenly able to fight the big group, it'll just make the big group feel like there's no reason to run together.

The end result of that isn't a bunch of small groups. It's nobody plays at all.

Setting that aside it's perfectly feasible for a similar number of players to beat a 'boon balled' zerg whilst operating in separate smaller units. It simply requires higher level tactics and communication than most players are willing to put the effort in towards because... there's no reward for doing so.

@gebrechen.5643 said:Maybe it's time to take the little kids toys aka SB and Thief away after they took away the toys of the necros?

Maybe they'll finally remove necro in PvE too then ^^

@God.2708 said:

@"Crazy.6029" said:The thing that I dislike the most about this Boon Ball meta, isn't just the fact that it promotes lazy game play by encouraging zergs to stack over half the raid with heal/boon bots and they can run around forever without being in any danger unless the come across another boon ball, but it seems like by doing this they are turning WvW in to Eotm. Nerf siege damage, make little resistance to flip objectives, buff boon ball squads so that big boon squads run around with very little danger, nerf boon rip/corrupt class to ensure long live the boon ball. So, basically, just run around forever flipping stuff without very much resistance unless other boon ball, just Ktrain and mow over smaller groups. Have they nerfed the walls yet or removed them? Maybe they should and just put a big bridge connecting the maps up to eotm. This might very well be the very lowest amount of effort needed to play without dying in wvw since its creation. If Anet wanted to nerf scourge then fine, but then buff the spell breaker up to at least keep the "I have the most boons so I win" meta in check.

You will still see big groups just for the simple reason of mitigating damage with more people around, this is how it was before boons and conditions became the main parts of combat since HoT. When you actually had to stack in water fields to blast for heals, and when pick teams were actually a thing killing players who didn't have 100% uptime on protection and stability.

As it is right now small groups don't stand a chance to take down big organized boon balls, I've seen a number of them utterly fail multiple times when trying to, I mean even before the damage nerf patch they at least had a chance to spike kill people, now that's gone and their last patch should have been balancing the other side, but guess they were too busy trying to figure out how to balance fix/break necros at the same time.

The game is over stacked with support and healing, boon spamming is one of the biggest reasons for this. Purity of purpose was one of the dumbest things added to the game without proper limitations, because anet never bothers to think ahead of potential situations, but then again everything is run by their pve department. Why do we have like 6 classes than can run full support, but only like 2-3 stripping classes?

Nerfing the other side of corruption and stripping makes it worse, they've already done this by nerfing winds multiple times and now scourge target caps. Barely anyone wants to play a bubble warrior, barely anyone wants to play mesmer which you can get some strips and cc's from, and now scourges converting back to reaper or core or another class altogether. Can't even get a quick mount stomp in to erase downs, cause nerf, and they have 30+ friends for insta res. There needs to be more boon denials like winds, and corruption in the game, spread to more classes than just warrior and necro, but oh noes that would promote pirate shipping and we certainly can't be bothered to go around red circles.

The game play is lazy, when you stack more support and just rely on that to walk right through everything (not even synergised when you tell random pugs to just log on their fb or scrapper), a situation where you shouldn't dare to walk/stand over it, less chances your screw ups like out of position or using wrong skill at wrong time actually screw you up because boons are constantly covering you. Lets even mention the fact that these balls run 1-3 dragon banners to easily make up for the damage to carry more support, while running the same 1-3 banner into them wouldn't hurt as much.

Then the zerglings come in here complaining about siege and defenses getting in the way, nerf all those so it gets even easier on them.It's utterly stupid how much the game snowballs situations in favor of bigger numbers, and it will never be fixed.

@XenesisII.1540 said:

You will still see big groups just for the simple reason of mitigating damage with more people around, this is how it was before boons and conditions became the main parts of combat since HoT. When you actually had to stack in water fields to blast for heals, and when pick teams were actually a thing killing players who didn't have 100% uptime on protection and stability....Then the zerglings come in here complaining about siege and defenses getting in the way, nerf all those so it gets even easier on them.It's utterly stupid how much the game snowballs situations in favor of bigger numbers, and it will never be fixed.

Highlighted for your convenience.

Setting that aside it's perfectly feasible for a similar number of players to beat a 'boon balled' zerg whilst operating in separate smaller units. It simply requires higher level tactics and communication than most players are willing to put the effort in towards because... there's no reward for doing so.

I really don't understand anyone who comes in and says 'The big group killed my small group'. What were you expecting to happen? Win with an inferior force? That makes a lot of sense, I don't even know how you would go about doing that. Nobody has given a solid workable solution to that. No siege doesn't work. Big groups can use siege too. No banners don't work. Big groups can use banners too. No mount stomps don't work. Big groups can use mount stomps too.

I get it is frustrating when there is a giant 75 man zerg in your EBG keep and you have 15 people on because its a dead server and you want to people to be able to respawn massacre the group slowly while the one remaining PPT warrior in the game repairs your walls and runs supply. But more realistically if you want to win 15v75 you need to be 15x better than your opponent. They are playing a different game from you, one where the only thing that matters is the ability to kill what's in front of them, and of course the best way to do that is to have as many people around killing as possible.

There are merits to having a healthy discussion around encouraging groups to split up, IE having multiple important and rewarding objectives at once. There is very very little merit in trying to come up with ways to fix 'boon balling' via class balance or asymmetric tools of war. There is no such fix. If Anet is not going to bother attempting the former, then they should work to make WvW as pleasant as possible for groups that want to just K-train around into each other in a glorious massacre of lag.