Downstate in WvW: a list of pros and cons — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Downstate in WvW: a list of pros and cons

Let's make a short list of pros and cons of downstate in WvW. I'll start with mine, but feel encouraged to add you own points (as long as you give constructive reasoning for them - "We also had downstate" is not constructive, not is "Downstate sucks" or "Everything would be better without downstate"):

Pro:

  • Downstate adds the ability to rally (avoiding being defeated) if you or you allies can defeat another enemy swift enough, adding another layer of complexity/strategy to the battle.
  • Downstate is used in PvE & PvP, so removing it might confuse newer WvW players that come freshly from PvE & PvP.
  • Downstate reduces the amount of downtime (no pun intended) as downed players can still use skills or rally, quickly returning to the fight, while defeated players need to use the nearest WP and run back (unless resurrected)

Cons:

  • Downstate turns large-scale battles into "winner takes all" as downed players of the winning side will rally when the losing side is defeated. This prevents a stronger side from suffering attrition (i.e. losing parts of its members), thus encouraging blobbing (as even a narrow defeat to another group will have next no impact on that group, as most of their downed players will rally)
  • Downstate affects small-scale combats negatively; in e.g. a 2 vs 2 situation with one downed player on each side, the first side that manages to defeat their downed opponent gains significant advantage, as their down player rallies, turning the fight into 2 vs 1.
  • Downstate turns NPC allies into a liability, as enemy downed players can rally upon a NPC ally's death (be it caused by conditions or downed-skills on the player). You having allies should not be an advantage to your opponent.

Comments

  • CharonXeno.4869CharonXeno.4869 Member ✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    You make an excellent point - I somewhat saw downstate and rallying as a package deal here:
    If rallying (though the defeat of another enemy) were to be removed all of the points in the "cons" section would be negated (as well as the first and partially the second "pro" point) while the remainder of the downstate ability would be retained. The downstate skills might need to examined on their interactions if rallying were no longer possible in WvW (e.g. the warrior's "Vengeance" skill).

    Of course I'm only trying to gather ideas and pro/con points here - ANet's willingness to listen to WvW players is legendary (as in some people might have read about it somewhere, but no-one has encountered it in recent memory), but maybe a Dev will silently look at it and see an idea that they think would be worth a try (shhhh.... you don't need to mention you read about here in the forum... just say you were under the shower when it came to you or something)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:
    If rallying (though the defeat of another enemy) were to be removed all of the points in the "cons" section would be negated (as well as the first and partially the second "pro" point) while the remainder of the downstate ability would be retained.

    Well, on the second pro point Anet has already split WvW/PvE/sPvP so much they are unrecognisable to each other for actual combat. Any confusion is negligable.

    For the first point, yes and no. For zerging, basicly no deeper tactics is involved. Rallying is often pure dumb luck based on tagging and your zerg pushing recklessly. In smallscale, its very different and yes one rally can win a fight - sometimes you have to make a choice between stomping or ressing when 2 people are downed and seconds matter. That particular tactical aspect would be lost.

    But as I said, its a compromise for the overall health of the combat mechanics. To me its acceptable because it also adds tactical challenges both in zerging and smallscale. No rallying mean you have to res the downed and determining when to do that, who should do that, how you need to handle the enemies and what skills you need to sacrifice for it isnt always easy. If you got 1 downed and kill an enemy... you still got 1 downed. Downstate would no longer be "I'll just lie here and wait for a kill".

    For zerging in particular, lots of downed means more people alive that have to make a choice whether to disengage and res or keep going, no "well they probably get up anyway" mentality anymore. I'm sure most commanders will hate such a change. I dont care.

    TL;DR it adds tactical challenges without sacrificing the deeper complexity downstate offer. Coincidentally its also incredibly easy for Anet to do as it require zero changes to downstate itself, they could flip the switch today if they wanted. Whether you can argue more needs to be done (res speed, hp, penalty timers, etc) is a seperate matter that requires more detailing, only talking rallying here.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't understand these cons.

    Winner takes all - it doesn't force you to blob, it forces you to win. I don't understand why playing good and being better should be punishing. Sure you'll win 50v30 easier than XvX, but downstate wont affect that much since better side will win almost always (and why does it even matter if you managed to kill 5 of them or 15 of them if you lost anyway?). Not to mention that fights end almost instantly with no downstate which is extremely boring since you spend more time on buffing than fighting.

    Small scale - same like saying that you went 2v2, killed one and now it's 1v2 so the 1 has disadvantage. You played your game better and you killed your enemy faster. Downstate changes nothing in your example (unless those 2 got downed at the exact same time, which is almost never going to happen). Whether you insta killed a player or you got him in downstate, you're still managing your cooldowns and combos the same, downed body is just easier to target and makes your aoe fields 5 times more useful since they do full effect.

    I can see the issue with rallying on npc's, but there's also advantage for you. Npcs spam cc and blinds like crazy and can actually block or negate some damage if you position properly. It also forces enemy to damage npcs over you so they can get a chance to rally. Builds which mostly rely on single target damage will get rekt by npcs even without your help.

    The only issue I can dee with downstate is amount of rallies, but as long as enemy can affect you from 2k range without even touching you (no icd on retal, auras spamming perma burn and chill on you, 10 second long guard reflects that randomly put 3k burns on you because a critter farted in that direction etc) rally should stay the same way it is. Passive boon/damage/condi/debuff etc applications need to be removed, otherwise you're just being punished for hitting multiple people with multiple skills without them even doing anything (or in the best case using just a single skill).

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  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    Do you know why Downstate is a popular debated topic?

    It is because there is no GvG.

    if and When GvG is in place, Downstate will become very important - because how does 1 guild wins a GvG , i would think when your team is all dead , and that the last guy standing from X guild's guild will be the winning team something like that.

    Currently people just want to snipe other players to get more bags, bags is the sole purpose for most WvW players, there is no purpose of rezzing your teammate or what for, just run back if you double down is often heard. So, until GvG is in place this is gonna be debate to death, and before that happens

    DOWNSTATE STAYS. end of story.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    Con:

    • It wastes my time.

    Downstate reduces the amount of downtime (no pun intended) as downed players can still use skills or rally, quickly returning to the fight, while defeated players need to use the nearest WP and run back (unless resurrected)

    What? The opposite is true. Most encounters let you bleed out for a minute or bait a rez and spike the rezzing guy too. Most of the time the fastest way to get back into the fight is to re-log into the game, which takes 5 clicks and 2x 5s of loading screens.

    And in general: how about not dying in the first place?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    And in general: how about not dying in the first place?

    Its not often the final punchline of a post is against the post itself.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    Hello, let's see if we can clear some things up:

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:
    Pro:

    • Downstate adds the ability to rally (avoiding being defeated) if you or you allies can defeat another enemy swift enough, adding another layer of complexity/strategy to the battle.

    When people talk about downstate adding complexity it is very unlikely that they are talking about rally. They rather tend to talk about how things like hand-ressing, stealth-saves, port-saves, flash-stomps, control-wars and downcleave-wars around downed players add mechanical and tactical dimensions to the game. This goes from both a defensive and offensive perspective. Good groups may purposely leave a downed player as bait for downcleaves or they may move a downed opponent into a postion that is favourable to themselves and unfavourable to their opponent to bait out cooldowns or force choices and risks taken that may result in more downed players.

    Cons:

    • Downstate turns large-scale battles into "winner takes all" as downed players of the winning side will rally when the losing side is defeated. This prevents a stronger side from suffering attrition (i.e. losing parts of its members), thus encouraging blobbing (as even a narrow defeat to another group will have next no impact on that group, as most of their downed players will rally)

    Luckily, as noted above, things are far more complex than that. Yes, there is an inherent problem with Rally that cause snowball effects and as a result end large-scale fights quicker. However, the events leading up to that point tend to be pretty decisive anyway. Most fights today snowball from initial kills before any commitment has been made (which ironically is often mitigated by the fact that downstate and down-supportive abilities exist) and any scenario where pushes turn into rally wars are less common than they were in the past. Either way though, I don't think there are many people on these forums who advocate for Rally to stay. I think most of us would be happy with rally going away to let the tactical dimensions and layers against snowballing remain while the actual snowballing from Rally can go.

    • Downstate affects small-scale combats negatively; in e.g. a 2 vs 2 situation with one downed player on each side, the first side that manages to defeat their downed opponent gains significant advantage, as their down player rallies, turning the fight into 2 vs 1.

    This differs wildly between different classes even if we limit the discussion to 1vX or 2vX. Downstate affects classes like Thieves and Warriors entirely differently. It also affects classes on different roles differently because even in a 2vX scenario it would be eligable to play support or any class/build that has downstate-supportive abilities even if a player on them may not have built into a full support role (eg., it may be a power Engi). That is why you often see players on typical gank classes complain about downstate. They play builds and in ways where they have trouble converting downs to stomps or downcleaves. However, that is balance and that is also why you never really see any well-regarded players on any of these builds complain about downstate, promote no-downstate or suggest nerfs to the things that add tactical variety surrounding downstate. That is also why these complaints almost exclusively come from inexperienced or mediocre players on Thief, GS Mesmer and LB Ranger.

    • Downstate turns NPC allies into a liability, as enemy downed players can rally upon a NPC ally's death (be it caused by conditions or downed-skills on the player). You having allies should not be an advantage to your opponent.

    If you fight around friendly NPC allies, not only will they be as much of a disruption for the opponent as they are a risk for rally, but if you fight around friendly NPC allies you are also enjoying a bunch of other advantages from objective-based buffs to the ability to reset into safe zones. It could easily be argued that the ability to rally off an NPC is a balance against tower-hugging ganks. This ties into the point above as there are many players opting to play builds streamlined into creating downs around objectives while they retain the ability to port into the objective if they're losing or fight from the objective. Objectives already offer a bunch of very powerful advantages and neither do such behaviour need more encouragement nore are enough people realizing just how powerful it is to purposely stage fights from objectives and in the hands of good players that does not need to become even more powerful. To repeat what was said above though, I don't think anyone has really strong feelings for Rally to stay, it's just prudent to broaden the discussion and let you see balance in a larger light than just getting snubbed out of a close duel or gank because some Necro life-leeched up off an NPC.

  • ShadowCatz.8437ShadowCatz.8437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    And in general: how about not dying in the first place?

    "Dying" would mean that you didn't have any downstate at all in WvW. Right now player first go into a downstate and then either get stomped or you die when your HP gets down to zero. The real issue here seem to be that player that only want fast bags rather want to die fast to get back into fight then get locked into a rather slow downstate and NOT get stomped (bleed out). When main focus is only on fast bags then downstate are just an annoying state, but for other purposes it can be used for strategical group play (as it is rather worthless to get into downstate if you are solo player or in a PUG where you don't have anybody that want to take that risk of getting killed by someone passing by).

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should remove downed state and ressing inside enemy objectives. Killing enemy doesn't mean anything when blob just ress him. If you die ypu should run back from spawn.

    Low quality trolling since launch
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  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @ShadowCatz.8437 said:
    @KrHome.1920 said:

    And in general: how about not dying in the first place?

    "Dying" would mean that you didn't have any downstate at all in WvW. Right now player first go into a downstate and then either get stomped or you die when your HP gets down to zero. The real issue here seem to be that player that only want fast bags rather want to die fast to get back into fight then get locked into a rather slow downstate and NOT get stomped (bleed out). When main focus is only on fast bags then downstate are just an annoying state, but for other purposes it can be used for strategical group play (as it is rather worthless to get into downstate if you are solo player or in a PUG where you don't have anybody that want to take that risk of getting killed by someone passing by).

    Downstate is not a useful element in WvW, because WvW is not balanced in terms of what the encounters look like. Downstate is totally fine in sPvP. In WvW it is a mechanic, that shifts the chances of winning to the bigger group, as it complicates kills for the smaller group and adds an element of snowballing for the bigger group.

    90% of the time I end up in downstate, because I am outnumbered. Why should I bother further taking part of this specific fight in downstate? I am outnumbered and locked in a useless mechanic on the floor that has basically only the purpose of postponing my inevitable defeat. It's pointless and a waste of time.

    If you die in the bigger group, then you are carried by downstate, while you should not need it in the first place, because you are already favored in that fight. That's what I am talking about, when I say "How about not dying in the first place?". If you are dying in the smaller group, then downstate just wastes your time.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @ShadowCatz.8437 said:
    @KrHome.1920 said:

    And in general: how about not dying in the first place?

    "Dying" would mean that you didn't have any downstate at all in WvW. Right now player first go into a downstate and then either get stomped or you die when your HP gets down to zero. The real issue here seem to be that player that only want fast bags rather want to die fast to get back into fight then get locked into a rather slow downstate and NOT get stomped (bleed out). When main focus is only on fast bags then downstate are just an annoying state, but for other purposes it can be used for strategical group play (as it is rather worthless to get into downstate if you are solo player or in a PUG where you don't have anybody that want to take that risk of getting killed by someone passing by).

    Downstate is not a useful element in WvW, because WvW is not balanced in terms of what the encounters look like. Downstate is totally fine in sPvP. In WvW it is a mechanic, that shifts the chances of winning to the bigger group, as it complicates kills for the smaller group and adds an element of snowballing for the bigger group.

    90% of the time I end up in downstate, because I am outnumbered. Why should I bother further taking part of this specific fight in downstate? I am outnumbered and locked in a useless mechanic on the floor that has basically only the purpose of postponing my inevitable defeat. It's pointless and a waste of time.

    If you die in the bigger group, then you are carried by downstate, while you should not need it in the first place, because you are already favored in that fight. That's what I am talking about, when I say "How about not dying in the first place?". If you are dying in the smaller group, then downstate just wastes your time.

    So basicly what you are saying is that downstate can be improved with a "give up" mechanic that speeds up the death (other games have something similar, such as BF series).

    No arguments from me there.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    The fundamental flaw is that it rewards numbers in a fight. Whenever no downstate week comes around large zergs are often whittled down when they extend beyond their WPs by smaller groups which allows for far more strategy other than win with a bigger/better comp group. In small scale fighting, skill becomes paramount as we routinely see a couple guys wreck twice or more their numbers. The downstate is a good thing in PvE but it straight sucks in WvW.

    Another huge con of the downstate is that it is absurdly unbalanced. Rangers in the water are nigh unkillable in some builds without several players hitting them since there is no underwater stomp. Mesmers are often more dangerous with Confusion when they are downed. Eles able to overplay thanks to doors and misting back into the group. If they are going to stick to the downstate, players need to instantly die in the water and they should remove/normalize all the downstate skills in WvW.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:
    Let's make a short list of pros and cons of downstate in WvW. I'll start with mine, but feel encouraged to add you own points (as long as you give constructive reasoning for them - "We also had downstate" is not constructive, not is "Downstate sucks" or "Everything would be better without downstate"):

    Pro:

    • Downstate adds the ability to rally (avoiding being defeated) if you or you allies can defeat another enemy swift enough, adding another layer of complexity/strategy to the battle.
    • Downstate is used in PvE & PvP, so removing it might confuse newer WvW players that come freshly from PvE & PvP.
    • Downstate reduces the amount of downtime (no pun intended) as downed players can still use skills or rally, quickly returning to the fight, while defeated players need to use the nearest WP and run back (unless resurrected)

    Cons:

    • Downstate turns large-scale battles into "winner takes all" as downed players of the winning side will rally when the losing side is defeated. This prevents a stronger side from suffering attrition (i.e. losing parts of its members), thus encouraging blobbing (as even a narrow defeat to another group will have next no impact on that group, as most of their downed players will rally)
    • Downstate affects small-scale combats negatively; in e.g. a 2 vs 2 situation with one downed player on each side, the first side that manages to defeat their downed opponent gains significant advantage, as their down player rallies, turning the fight into 2 vs 1.
    • Downstate turns NPC allies into a liability, as enemy downed players can rally upon a NPC ally's death (be it caused by conditions or downed-skills on the player). You having allies should not be an advantage to your opponent.

    I would add to yours that:

    Pros:

    • Downstate does allow for tactical play, put some in rez mode to reduce their numbers or try and create a bomb point to drop more
    • Its fun to spike people

    Cons:

    • Multiple people rezing means numbers will have an advantage
    • It does no good to risk spiking someone to move them to defeated state since the winning side can just revive their defeated if they win
    • Spiking and cleaving have the same result but one is more challenging to do than the other
    • Discourages smaller groups from attacking larger ones if there is nothing to gain by it thereby discouraging fights

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  • Downed state is just dumb. Just remove it completely from the game and rebalance base health by +20% across all classes.

    Why would i ever want to use the stupid downed state skills (which i can't change or substantially improve) when i could be using my normal class skills (you know, the ones i actually specced to use) until death?

    DS is easily the worst POS game mechanic of any game i've ever played. 8 years on and still more than half of all players hate it, and most of the other half are scared to remove it only because they're not thinking about the other changes that would accompany the removal of downed state, like more HP, less burst specs, replacement skills/traits etc.

    Very very few players actually like DS.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not sure what people will think of this but what if :

    Combat Rally removed.
    In combat Res speed in WvW is standardized to "Death res" speed. (Meaning, it will defaulted to the slow res speed akin to ressing a defeated player)
    Bandage works per normal, and downed players can res themselves faster.

    Finished players through a Finisher, cannot be Ressed at all and will be automatically revived at a nearest Waypoint.
    Bled out players (or killed) can be ressed and their bodies will sit on the field for 5 minutes, as per normal.

    Can now Res defeated players in combat.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Just logging my opinion. Downstate I am not fussed about. Rally should go in WvW.

    Rallying just feels like you cheated someone or they cheated you. Who will miss rally-wars? Maybe some will...

    The downstate should have an added return to spawn button, 'back to wp". Tagging opponents treat that respawn/wp as a received kill / bag as usual. It is simple, less hassle to program. Less hassle for the old engine. Less hassle for the central systems already copying with boon / no-boon strip/convert ping-pong.

    It also stops players sitting down next to players bleeding out after a battle... Not that I have seen diamond level players doing this to low rank ones... If downed they just wp and off they go again...

    Or when in downstate you can sit there and wait for friendlies to res you. Then they have a a risk / reward choice to make to get their side up... part of the fun when attackers can start a fresh battle or other friendlies are waiting on attackers leaping in to take advantage. An on and on... so yes more gameplay...

    I know that folks have strong opinions about Downstate. Fair enough. But downstate is separate from rally for me.