Crazy Braham and Primordus Theory (SPOILERS) — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Crazy Braham and Primordus Theory (SPOILERS)

As we play through the story, Braham correctly senses two powerful destroyer minions before they appear, this is so strange that the commander asks him about it after Metrica Province is saved, and while Braham said he didn't know, I began developing a theory. DISCLAIMER: I don't think this is actually gonna happen, I just think it'd be pretty cool to think about. What if Braham is going to become Primordus' champion? Think about it, as I said before he can already seem to sense them for some reason (though I do realize it probably has nothing to do with Primo himself) this could be considered a connection. Braham is also confirmed to be the norn of prophecy where him and Jormag are to kill one another, wouldn't it be poetic justice that the champion of Primordus is the one to fell the ice dragon? It's also pretty clear that Braham is obsessed with taking down Jormag (rightfully so I might add). He's also shown to go off the deep end before, after Eir died he became almost hateful of the commander and went against his friends, what if he does so again? And for the thing that made me think this could actually happen, is the title of the episode, "Champions". Right now it seems odd to call it Champions if they are only two at the moment, being Ryland and the Commander, the title makes much more sense if there's a third one, Primordus'. Final note: Braham becoming the fire dragon's champion would destroy our spirits, and what is Primordus, if not the dragon of destruction? Just food for thought, once again I don't think Anet would actually do this, but I think it'd be incredible if they did.
TL;DR Braham could be on his way to becoming the fire dragon's champion

Comments

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think this is too crazy, like you said it's called Champions, and the more champions they write in, the more relevant it will be. It seems the theme is meant to be dragons and their champions at the moment, so I imagine something to represent Primordus will emerge. Wouldn't be surprised if it's just a monster destroyer like he's used in the past (The Great Destroyer), but I could see it being a character too

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    This is an interesting theory and for once I don't think it's implausible. I could see the writers taking this direction.

    As far as Primordus has been established, however, we've never seen them take an interest in mortals. I don't see why that would change now. Why Braham? We know Primordus is capable of creating incredibly powerful minions of their own. I don't see why Primordus' 'Champion' wouldn't be one of its own creations.

    That being said, the episode hints that Primordus may have evolved, as Phlunt comments that while we aren't seeing Mordremoth and Zhaitan's magic in Primordus' minions (like we did in the Ember Bay map, etc), the slumber we induced may have given the fire dragon time to properly absorb that magic. Practically, it could account for any future models of Primordus that we see looking different from what we witnessed in S3. Story-wise, they could use this proposed adaption to account for a personality/tactical shift. So maybe the Plant/Mind and Death/Shadow magic, once fully blended with Primordus' Fire/Conflagration domains, will give us a more overtly intelligent and nuanced Primordus that would see potential benefit in a mortal Champion. Maybe we'll hear Primordus speak after all.

  • Reynarth.4819Reynarth.4819 Member ✭✭✭

    And what if these aren't really Primordus minions, but Jormag's in disguise? And that's why Braham can sense them, because of his connection to Jormag?

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    Or another, disturbing possibility...the other terrestrial dragons are reconstituring themselves, allowing the remaining Elders to relinquish the magic that they managed on behalf of their fellows. We never recovered Zaithan's corpse. Mordremoth hid himself in Zojja, who continues to suffer from the debilitating effects of this. Kralk's spirit was observed over Dragon Festival.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I had a random thought about the bow. In the Vision of the Past we saw all of the stone dwarves being corrupted by Primordus.

    What if the jotun scroll was actually infused with Primordus' power, thus why it was able to harm Jormag, and it's started to slowly corrupt Braham?

    It is weird that they made a note of it but the only other thing I can think of is his stronger bond to the spirits. Perhaps this is leading into the spirits having a much stronger tie-in to the origin of the elder dragons and his connection is allowing him to sense them?

    I had a half-baked low effort theory about Primordus being the Spirit of Fire that went rampaging, but given that Jormag is the twin I'm not really sure what that could mean for what Jormag's part would be in this in relation to the original spirits and Koda.

    Frankly though, I'd say we're pretty much done with the spirits at this point so I'm leaning more towards the bow theory than his connection to the spirits.

    But yes, you could be right. The next episode is called "Power" or something isn't it? Perhaps that power is Braham, vehemently arguing against siding with Jormag, deciding to attempt negotiations with Primordus and leading down the path of becoming its champion. I just find it a little less likely because Primordus hasn't really had any build up in terms of character development or personality... He just seems like a flaming rage monster.

    Perhaps Primordus absorbing the mind sphere, could allow the fire dragon to communicate, when it previously has not.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    It is weird that they made a note of it but the only other thing I can think of is his stronger bond to the spirits. Perhaps this is leading into the spirits having a much stronger tie-in to the origin of the elder dragons and his connection is allowing him to sense them?

    I really like this theory that it has something to do with Braham's connection to the spirits. It's a bit cliche, but maybe he becomes the "Champion of the Spirits"? Perhaps him sensing the destroyers is a power granted him by wolf or something, I dunno. It's interesting that the "spirits of the wild" theme is so present in the music for the release, despite the fact that the spirits don't themselves make an appearance.

    Braham going "bad" and joining Primordus would rub me the wrong way, since we already had an arc where he severed ties with the commander, and we've spent all this time in the last two seasons redeeming him. He's also the only major Norn character left with Eir gone, if you don't count Jhavi. It wouldn't surprise me though if they tease us with that direction for dramatic effect, similar to how they implied at the beginning of episode 2 that he might be succombing to the whispers.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I had a random thought about the bow. In the Vision of the Past we saw all of the stone dwarves being corrupted by Primordus.

    They weren't corrupted by Primordus.
    The Stone Summit used Primordus magic in a ritual to try and prevent themselves from turning into "The Great Dwarf."
    So far, Primordus has not corrupted a single living being.

    What if the jotun scroll was actually infused with Primordus' power, thus why it was able to harm Jormag, and it's started to slowly corrupt Braham?

    Seeing how the Stone Summit turned into Destroyer-like Magma Dwarves, this might actually work.
    But I doubt Arenanet will corrupt another ally of the Commander, especially if it's not Aurene doing it.

  • This is an interesting theory. I don't want to see Braham corrupted though. Becoming Primordus's Champion could signal we are moving along some type of redemption arc for the Elder Dragons.

    weathering's everything

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    Suppose Primordus tells us that the balance must be preserved. Champions share a link with their Elder dragon. Could Braham become a Champion and resist enough to tell us whether Primordus is lying? Braham could be hardened against corruption with Norn lore. His role would be similar to the Silver Surfer's and other Heralds of Galactus.

    weathering's everything

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kinda beyond caring if Braham gets corrupted at this point. He's still too angsty and maybe becoming a destroyer will actually make him less annoying.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm wondering if it has something to do with the Scroll he used to enchant Eir's Bow.

    If you recall we found that scroll guarded by Icebrood.. why did they not destroy the scroll or deliver it to Jormag so she could corrupt it or consume it's power?

    All we do know is that it was made by the Jotun back when they were a highly advanced race that were extremely adept with magic.

    My theory is that the Jotun figured out the same thing Taimi did a while ago.. Primordus and Jormag are opposites and their powers can be used against each other.
    With that knowledge they found a way to harness the Dragons powers and weaponize them to use against each other.

    The Fire Scroll that Braham used to enchant his mothers bow could actually be an ancient Jotun weapon created with power harnessed from Primordus, that would explain why it can hurt Jormag and why Braham now seems to have some kind of connection with Primordus and can sense his Destroyers.

    That would also explain why Jormag hid the scroll away and protected it rather than trying to destroy or consume such a powerful magic weapon that could be used against it.. consuming Primordus magic could be extremely toxic to Jormag and vice versa.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm wondering if it has something to do with the Scroll he used to enchant Eir's Bow.

    If you recall we found that scroll guarded by Icebrood.. why did they not destroy the scroll or deliver it to Jormag so she could corrupt it or consume it's power?

    All we do know is that it was made by the Jotun back when they were a highly advanced race that were extremely adept with magic.

    My theory is that the Jotun figured out the same thing Taimi did a while ago.. Primordus and Jormag are opposites and their powers can be used against each other.
    With that knowledge they found a way to harness the Dragons powers and weaponize them to use against each other.

    The Fire Scroll that Braham used to enchant his mothers bow could actually be an ancient Jotun weapon created with power harnessed from Primordus, that would explain why it can hurt Jormag and why Braham now seems to have some kind of connection with Primordus and can sense his Destroyers.

    That would also explain why Jormag hid the scroll away and protected it rather than trying to destroy or consume such a powerful magic weapon that could be used against it.. consuming Primordus magic could be extremely toxic to Jormag and vice versa.

    Looks like @Bast.7253 had the same idea and posted it first.

    Edit!
    This was supposed to be an edit not a new post my bad >.<

  • firedragon.8953firedragon.8953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    Sure. Makes sense to me.

    Braham, all all norn, really hate Jormag. Maybe Braham isn't corrupted, but instead chooses to become the fire dragon's "champion" or rather borrow his power to wield the power of fire and destruction to defeat Jormag. Primordus is the only other elder dragon known to have actually attacked another elder dragon (Jormag in Drizzlewood Coast). There may be more to the feud between dragons than meets the eye.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Could see it happen.

    Anet doesn't even do foreshadowing well.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Kinda beyond caring if Braham gets corrupted at this point. He's still too angsty and maybe becoming a destroyer will actually make him less annoying.

    He hasn’t been angsty for a while now. He’s trying to atone for his past behavior and redeem his failure in the eyes of the Norn.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    I find it very unlikely that Braham is going to become Primordus' champion. It just doesn't fit.

    Primordus doesn't give a kitten about mortals. His only interaction with them was to kill them, only those corrupted by him are those which took his power and this was a painful transition for them as shown by the Stone Summit who were liquified from inside. While Jormag looks down on mortals, Primordus is genocidal to them.

    @Reynarth.4819 said:
    And what if these aren't really Primordus minions, but Jormag's in disguise? And that's why Braham can sense them, because of his connection to Jormag?

    I don't think Jormag is capable of producing illusions that cause entire landscapes to burn.

    @Bast.7253 said:
    What if the jotun scroll was actually infused with Primordus' power, thus why it was able to harm Jormag, and it's started to slowly corrupt Braham?
    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Fire Scroll that Braham used to enchant his mothers bow could actually be an ancient Jotun weapon created with power harnessed from Primordus, that would explain why it can hurt Jormag and why Braham now seems to have some kind of connection with Primordus and can sense his Destroyers.

    Very, very unlikely, imo. A Crack in the Ice seems to more hint that the scroll is infused with the Spirit of Fire's power - which the episode also shows is capable of countering Jormag well.

    Plus, the method of the Stone Summit being corrupted is defined as their insides being liquified (this is even shown in the models too), so I think if Braham was being corrupted, he'd feel that. If dwarves who were literally made of stone and thus incapable of feeling heat could feel the burning, Braham would too.

    With each phase, transformation can be felt within. Though we grudgingly accept our new bodies, we are bound for irreversible change. All has not been to plan, however. Some among us have not withstood the treatment. Their bodies were melted from within by fire, leaving behind nothing but ash. We mourn them, but their wills were perhaps not strong enough for the rites. The ritual priests propose the fallen may have been overwhelmed by a force connected to or perhaps superior to what we're harnessing. A being of pure and ancient fire.

    Something wrong
    thoughts thin
    burning
    ash
    summit

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Books:_Records_of_the_Stone_Summit

    Braham's bond with the Spirits is far more likely. Before Episode 4, he had only a tangible tie to three Lost Spirits and one Great Spirit. With Episode 4, he is tied to four Lost Spirits and four Great Spirits. And some minor spirits too:

    Braham Eirsson: The Great Spirits aren't talking, so we need the other Spirits to help. I can feel them. Hare, Otter, Griffon...
    [...]
    Braham Eirsson: The Lesser Spirits don't know me. I need to prove I'm worthy, like I did to the others.
    [...]
    Braham Eirsson: Otter Spirit was a little feisty, but I think everything's fine now. Just waiting on you.

    At this point, Braham is basically Supershaman Braham, and is close to becoming Super-Havroun Braham, the norn of all Spirits.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I had a random thought about the bow. In the Vision of the Past we saw all of the stone dwarves being corrupted by Primordus.

    They weren't corrupted by Primordus.
    The Stone Summit used Primordus magic in a ritual to try and prevent themselves from turning into "The Great Dwarf."
    So far, Primordus has not corrupted a single living being.

    That would be corruption by primordus, the same way Kellach was corrupted by Zhaitan via an Orrian relic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • A comment on reddit made me remember something that supports this change being due to his connection to the Spirits of the Wild.

    From the story journal:

    And Braham is...changing. The weight of prophecy. The death of his mother. The plight of his homeland. It's all aging him.
    And now he's able to sense Primordus's minions. Almost like a skilled hunter would. He doesn't quite understand the changes he's going through. I just hope he's able to keep it together

    This reminded me of when we get the Volfen Blessing to track the nornbear. Specifically, the skill used to ping the Nornbear's location on the map: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Volfen_Bloodlust_(Curse_of_the_Nornbear)

    Shout. For 6 seconds, you and all adjacent allies attack 33% faster. While this skill is active you can detect the presence of Svanir.

    This mirrors Braham's new ability perfectly, and keep in mind this is technically the first time we see Braham tracking or hunting someone/something since first "becoming the Wolf" in the end of Episode 2.

    This solidifies my belief this is the Spirits of the Wild's doing, and not Primordus.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I find it very unlikely that Braham is going to become Primordus' champion. It just doesn't fit.

    I agree with that, At the moment I can't see Primordus as anything other than a genocidal living apocalypse intent on pure destruction and carnage.
    Tbh I don't want him to be much more than that either, I know a lot of people think that kind of villain is boring but personally I don't agree so long as those kinds of villains are given enough time to shine and show off just how dangerous they are.

    This is what I was talking about in another thread about how I feel like Primordus needs to basically go nuclear and utterly destroy us at least once before we kill him. Otherwise he'll be a colossal disappointment with no real build up, least that's how I will feel anyway. :)
    We kinda got something like that with Kralkatorrik and some might feel like it's being rehashed but i'm talking much higher stakes with far greater advantage us scenario.
    Killing Jormag, wiping out the icebrood and Frost Legion, wiping out most of our allies, severely injuring Aurine and completely nuking an entire region of the world which would make even Abaddon's fall from grace look like nothing.
    That would do it for me, Primordus by far the most dangerous and destructive thing that's ever lived on Tyria, that's what i'm hoping for :P

    @Bast.7253 said:
    What if the jotun scroll was actually infused with Primordus' power, thus why it was able to harm Jormag, and it's started to slowly corrupt Braham?
    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Fire Scroll that Braham used to enchant his mothers bow could actually be an ancient Jotun weapon created with power harnessed from Primordus, that would explain why it can hurt Jormag and why Braham now seems to have some kind of connection with Primordus and can sense his Destroyers.

    Very, very unlikely, imo. A Crack in the Ice seems to more hint that the scroll is infused with the Spirit of Fire's power - which the episode also shows is capable of countering Jormag well.

    Plus, the method of the Stone Summit being corrupted is defined as their insides being liquified (this is even shown in the models too), so I think if Braham was being corrupted, he'd feel that. If dwarves who were literally made of stone and thus incapable of feeling heat could feel the burning, Braham would too.

    I don't think it's the same thing as the stone summit, they tried to harness the Great Destroyers power to stop the Rite so they basically corrupted themselves.

    Braham didn't absorb any magic from the Jotun Scroll he infused it into his bow so I don't think Braham is being corrupted by Primordus but if the Scroll was created using Primordus Magic then Braham would be exposed to it every time he used the bow which could explain his ability to sense Destroyers.

    As far as the Spirt of Fire goes.. I wonder if that could also be just another name for Primordus.
    The Sons of Svanir have long believed Jormag to be the Dragon spirit so it wouldn't be the first time an Elder Dragon has been associated with a Spirit of the Wild.
    The spirit of fire is also deemed to be a hostile and malicious spirit as well so that kinda does fit with Primordus nature.
    The Kodan's Flame is also associated with the Spirit of Fire and that too has the ability to repel Jormag's minions as you said.. but we have seen this kind of relationship in the past as well with the Blue Orb repelling Zhaitan's minions and it's quite a common theory that the Blue Orb is somehow linked to the Sea Dragon.
    The Kodan also believe the Fire spirit to have gotten old and left Tyria a long time ago which could have been how ancient Kodan interpreted Primordus going back to sleep.
    I think there's a fair bit to support the Theory that Primordus may be the same being Norn and Kodan called the Spirit of Fire and if he is then it would definitely explain the kind of magic which is infused in Eir's Bow, or perhaps better to say the magic that has corrupted Eir's bow..
    Could lead to a shock moment down the road when someone (probably Ryland) tries to use that bow against Primordus and the Bow betrays them.

    If this theory does hold any weight at all then I also have to Wonder if the ancient one the Kodan believe to be their god Koda is actually the same being that Kralktorrik called Mother..
    Primordus and Jormag we now know are Twin siblings and Jormag referred to Aurine as little sister despite no apparent relation which was a little curious..

    I'm wondering if all the Elder Dragons by matter of status consider each other in some way family.. and the Mother being the one who they are all scion's from with exception to Aurine who would be at least a 3rd generation Elder Dragon.
    There's been lots of talk about this Mother being the original Spirit of Dragon which fits the Kodan beliefs about the Ancient one who created all the other spirits..
    If Mother is Koda then there is a sure thing that the Elder Dragons are Spirits which would definitely make Primordus the Spirit of Fire.

    Kodan also believe that the spirits are wild and destructive without the guiding influence of Koda.. Mother.. which also kinda fits the Elder Dragons.
    You can kinda see similar personality defects in other characters through fiction, Take Lucifer from the Netflix show or Supernatural as a prime example.
    Immortal, powerful angel with severe daddy issues and an immature, childish and jealous nature despite being tens of thousands of years old.
    Immaturity and jealousy seem to be common traits for beings that share that whole godlike powerful, immortal thing.. specially when the one being they consider above them (God/Koda-Mother) replaces them with more favourable creations (Humans/Younger Spirits and mortals)

    Kinda going off a bit there but I hope the connections i'm making are coming through :)
    I wonder how deeply connected this world of Tyria actually is, Specially when we remember that Humans are not a native species thus would never had had a spirit to represent them.
    Take us out of the mix and the vast majority of this world is more animal like species.. the Norn being the only Human like species that naturally belong to it and they are shapeshifters with animal forms.. plus there's the whole Kodan belief too that they are some kind of splinter faction of Kodan that lost their true path and devolved into their more human like forms.

    Could all be just as you said though, Braham just being more connected to the Spirit of Wolf.
    I've probably overlooked a lot as usual but this was a fun post to write regardless. ^^

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020

    They are quite obviously making Braham the Avatar, AKA bridge between the spirits and mortals. :p

    Based on his storyline in IBS about forging deeper connection and favor with the spirits of the Wild, it would be odd if Braham suddenly betrayed his redemption/growth arc and became a corrupted champion of Primordus (who doesn’t having any clear interest in mortals so far). Uber-shaman is the trajectory of the narrative they’ve given him this season.

    Edit: I could see Braham being killed by Jormag to fulfill the prophecy, only to be reborn as some sort of spiritual mouthpiece to the Spirits of the Wild/Norn Jesus figure.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kinda wondering if one of the last story missions will have Jormag and Primordus doing some kinda DBZ beam struggle in the background, while we deal with both icebrood and destroyers. Possibly with Braham seeing an opportunity to strike Jormag with his bow, allowing Primordus to gain the upper hand and finish the Ice Dragon for good...

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I find it very unlikely that Braham is going to become Primordus' champion. It just doesn't fit.

    I agree with that, At the moment I can't see Primordus as anything other than a genocidal living apocalypse intent on pure destruction and carnage.
    Tbh I don't want him to be much more than that either, I know a lot of people think that kind of villain is boring but personally I don't agree so long as those kinds of villains are given enough time to shine and show off just how dangerous they are.

    This is what I was talking about in another thread about how I feel like Primordus needs to basically go nuclear and utterly destroy us at least once before we kill him. Otherwise he'll be a colossal disappointment with no real build up, least that's how I will feel anyway. :)
    We kinda got something like that with Kralkatorrik and some might feel like it's being rehashed but i'm talking much higher stakes with far greater advantage us scenario.
    Killing Jormag, wiping out the icebrood and Frost Legion, wiping out most of our allies, severely injuring Aurine and completely nuking an entire region of the world which would make even Abaddon's fall from grace look like nothing.
    That would do it for me, Primordus by far the most dangerous and destructive thing that's ever lived on Tyria, that's what i'm hoping for :P

    @Bast.7253 said:
    What if the jotun scroll was actually infused with Primordus' power, thus why it was able to harm Jormag, and it's started to slowly corrupt Braham?
    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Fire Scroll that Braham used to enchant his mothers bow could actually be an ancient Jotun weapon created with power harnessed from Primordus, that would explain why it can hurt Jormag and why Braham now seems to have some kind of connection with Primordus and can sense his Destroyers.

    Very, very unlikely, imo. A Crack in the Ice seems to more hint that the scroll is infused with the Spirit of Fire's power - which the episode also shows is capable of countering Jormag well.

    Plus, the method of the Stone Summit being corrupted is defined as their insides being liquified (this is even shown in the models too), so I think if Braham was being corrupted, he'd feel that. If dwarves who were literally made of stone and thus incapable of feeling heat could feel the burning, Braham would too.

    I don't think it's the same thing as the stone summit, they tried to harness the Great Destroyers power to stop the Rite so they basically corrupted themselves.

    Braham didn't absorb any magic from the Jotun Scroll he infused it into his bow so I don't think Braham is being corrupted by Primordus but if the Scroll was created using Primordus Magic then Braham would be exposed to it every time he used the bow which could explain his ability to sense Destroyers.

    As far as the Spirt of Fire goes.. I wonder if that could also be just another name for Primordus.
    The Sons of Svanir have long believed Jormag to be the Dragon spirit so it wouldn't be the first time an Elder Dragon has been associated with a Spirit of the Wild.
    The spirit of fire is also deemed to be a hostile and malicious spirit as well so that kinda does fit with Primordus nature.
    The Kodan's Flame is also associated with the Spirit of Fire and that too has the ability to repel Jormag's minions as you said.. but we have seen this kind of relationship in the past as well with the Blue Orb repelling Zhaitan's minions and it's quite a common theory that the Blue Orb is somehow linked to the Sea Dragon.
    The Kodan also believe the Fire spirit to have gotten old and left Tyria a long time ago which could have been how ancient Kodan interpreted Primordus going back to sleep.
    I think there's a fair bit to support the Theory that Primordus may be the same being Norn and Kodan called the Spirit of Fire and if he is then it would definitely explain the kind of magic which is infused in Eir's Bow, or perhaps better to say the magic that has corrupted Eir's bow..
    Could lead to a shock moment down the road when someone (probably Ryland) tries to use that bow against Primordus and the Bow betrays them.

    If this theory does hold any weight at all then I also have to Wonder if the ancient one the Kodan believe to be their god Koda is actually the same being that Kralktorrik called Mother..
    Primordus and Jormag we now know are Twin siblings and Jormag referred to Aurine as little sister despite no apparent relation which was a little curious..

    I'm wondering if all the Elder Dragons by matter of status consider each other in some way family.. and the Mother being the one who they are all scion's from with exception to Aurine who would be at least a 3rd generation Elder Dragon.
    There's been lots of talk about this Mother being the original Spirit of Dragon which fits the Kodan beliefs about the Ancient one who created all the other spirits..
    If Mother is Koda then there is a sure thing that the Elder Dragons are Spirits which would definitely make Primordus the Spirit of Fire.

    Kodan also believe that the spirits are wild and destructive without the guiding influence of Koda.. Mother.. which also kinda fits the Elder Dragons.
    You can kinda see similar personality defects in other characters through fiction, Take Lucifer from the Netflix show or Supernatural as a prime example.
    Immortal, powerful angel with severe daddy issues and an immature, childish and jealous nature despite being tens of thousands of years old.
    Immaturity and jealousy seem to be common traits for beings that share that whole godlike powerful, immortal thing.. specially when the one being they consider above them (God/Koda-Mother) replaces them with more favourable creations (Humans/Younger Spirits and mortals)

    Kinda going off a bit there but I hope the connections i'm making are coming through :)
    I wonder how deeply connected this world of Tyria actually is, Specially when we remember that Humans are not a native species thus would never had had a spirit to represent them.
    Take us out of the mix and the vast majority of this world is more animal like species.. the Norn being the only Human like species that naturally belong to it and they are shapeshifters with animal forms.. plus there's the whole Kodan belief too that they are some kind of splinter faction of Kodan that lost their true path and devolved into their more human like forms.

    Could all be just as you said though, Braham just being more connected to the Spirit of Wolf.
    I've probably overlooked a lot as usual but this was a fun post to write regardless. ^^

    I've had the same theory about Primordus being the Spirit of Fire. I do have to wonder on this theory though what that means for Jormag and what spirit Jormag could be, or could have been.

    Though I'm really wondering if Arenanet really has any intention of diving more into Koda and the spirits moving forward. It feels like a pretty big reveal and they didn't seem overly certain about having anykind of origin story for the elder dragons after the Season 4 finale's guild chat. They could go with this theory, but I have a feeling they may go with something else entirely if they even dive that deeply.

    But I also wonder if they may eventually play on an imprisonment plot at some point. Say, right now we believe that Tyria requires all of these dragons to hold the balance. Jormag is telling us the balance is a lie, which is probably a lie in itself. But what if it isn't?

    What if it isn't some mystical force like The All that causes the planet to unravel, or the magical imbalance, but something more sentient? What if, though this does have a lot of similarity to WoW, they're essentially jailers keeping some larger force at bay that grows stronger and stronger with each dragon's death?

    Whether that be a 7th original elder dragon or some other force we haven't seen.

    I guess it boils down to how ready Arenanet is to put the dragon plot behind them and move on to something else. If End of Dragons is truly the end of the current malevolent dragon cycle as we know it and the rebirth of something new, then we may see some of these things resolved. If not, they may lightly touch on it and save it for a later date as an ace up their sleeve. They'd also have to be pretty confident about the narrative they had moving forward in comparison to the Elder Dragons we have now. If you look at WoW for example everyone always thought Sargeras was the be all and end all of cosmic baddies. Next thing you know we have another realm with the revelation that there are beings even older than Sargeras. At one point does that end though? Because eventually you're going to run out of possibilities, especially in an mmo-style story telling experience.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As far as the Spirt of Fire goes.. I wonder if that could also be just another name for Primordus.
    The Sons of Svanir have long believed Jormag to be the Dragon spirit so it wouldn't be the first time an Elder Dragon has been associated with a Spirit of the Wild.
    The spirit of fire is also deemed to be a hostile and malicious spirit as well so that kinda does fit with Primordus nature.

    The thing is, according to the norn and kodan, there is a spirit for everything. The Spirit of Fire, the Spirit of Mountains, the Spirit of Seasons, the Spirit of Darkness - these are all nature spirits and are on par to the animal spirits like Bear, Wolf, Otter, Wolverine, etc. They're far inferior to the Elder Dragons as we've seen, but driving forces of nature in the world as well. The Sons of Svanir only relate Jormag to the Spirit of Dragon because that just fits their modus operandi, and they actively ignore the presence of the other five Elder Dragons.

    So I don't see any relation between the Spirit of Fire and Primordus, no more than there's a relation between Primordus and Balthazar. There are hundreds more nature spirits out there than there are Elder Dragon or Elder Dragon domains, so linking them by this point seems silly and pointless. And besides, what Elder Dragon would be the Spirit of Seasons?

    Besides, the Spirit of Fire is considered malicious by the norn, but a spirit with both good and bad qualities by the kodan. And not to mention according to the kodan, the spirit of fire was small and meek until "they" carried it:

    Flamebearer: From Koda's eye, our tribe accepted the spirit of fire. Small and meek, it could only go where the kodan carried it.
    Flamebearer-in-Training: Like quaggan.
    Flamebearer: As we carried the spirit, it grew in size and speed. Suddenly, it carried itself. spreading throughout the world.

    Flamebearer: After the Time of Great Trial, the kodan realized that we were also charged with teaching fire about creation.
    Flamebearer: The kodan then taught the spirit life. We gave fire a home in our sanctuaries. It learned to warm us.

    Flamebearer: Because the flame is a pure form of harmony. A fulcrum between creation and destruction where all living things exist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamebearer

    If the Spirit of Fire = Primordus, I don't think the Flamebearers would say that the Spirit of Fire is in perfect balance, knowing to destroy and to create. That puts a major wrench in your theory.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As far as the Spirt of Fire goes.. I wonder if that could also be just another name for Primordus.
    The Sons of Svanir have long believed Jormag to be the Dragon spirit so it wouldn't be the first time an Elder Dragon has been associated with a Spirit of the Wild.
    The spirit of fire is also deemed to be a hostile and malicious spirit as well so that kinda does fit with Primordus nature.

    The thing is, according to the norn and kodan, there is a spirit for everything. The Spirit of Fire, the Spirit of Mountains, the Spirit of Seasons, the Spirit of Darkness - these are all nature spirits and are on par to the animal spirits like Bear, Wolf, Otter, Wolverine, etc. They're far inferior to the Elder Dragons as we've seen, but driving forces of nature in the world as well. The Sons of Svanir only relate Jormag to the Spirit of Dragon because that just fits their modus operandi, and they actively ignore the presence of the other five Elder Dragons.

    So I don't see any relation between the Spirit of Fire and Primordus, no more than there's a relation between Primordus and Balthazar. There are hundreds more nature spirits out there than there are Elder Dragon or Elder Dragon domains, so linking them by this point seems silly and pointless. And besides, what Elder Dragon would be the Spirit of Seasons?

    Besides, the Spirit of Fire is considered malicious by the norn, but a spirit with both good and bad qualities by the kodan. And not to mention according to the kodan, the spirit of fire was small and meek until "they" carried it:

    Flamebearer: From Koda's eye, our tribe accepted the spirit of fire. Small and meek, it could only go where the kodan carried it.
    Flamebearer-in-Training: Like quaggan.
    Flamebearer: As we carried the spirit, it grew in size and speed. Suddenly, it carried itself. spreading throughout the world.

    Flamebearer: After the Time of Great Trial, the kodan realized that we were also charged with teaching fire about creation.
    Flamebearer: The kodan then taught the spirit life. We gave fire a home in our sanctuaries. It learned to warm us.

    Flamebearer: Because the flame is a pure form of harmony. A fulcrum between creation and destruction where all living things exist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamebearer

    If the Spirit of Fire = Primordus, I don't think the Flamebearers would say that the Spirit of Fire is in perfect balance, knowing to destroy and to create. That puts a major wrench in your theory.

    I guess my connections with real world religion didn't quite come across as I hoped but no worries.
    I was trying to suggest that there was some kind of hierarchy within this system and speculate my own possible origin story theory about how these dragons came to be and got where they are.. it's basically just a fan fiction though I guess taking inspiration of people's real world beliefs which is quite a common source for fantasy worlds etc.

    Anyway Koda would be the mega power in this theory and the original being/creator of the world.
    God (for real life representation), Koda to the Kodan and Mother to the Elder Dragons but overall it's the same entity.
    It could also be what the Asura perceive to be the Eternal Alchemy as well as The All.
    All of which could be considered in a way a God.. not a being exactly but something greater than us and beyond our comprehension as many religious types tend to believe their God's are in real life.
    Each race having it's own take or perceiving the same entity in their own way according to their own beliefs and religions etc
    That's the connection I was getting at with this Koda/Mother theory.

    The First of the Spirits Koda/Mother created would have been the original Primal elements, which in fantasy games etc are very often Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Nature, Ice, Light and Darkness.. which in Gw2 would be represented by Elder Dragons.
    Fire, Primordus.
    Ice, Jormag.
    Water, DSD.
    Wind, Kralkatorrik-Dead.
    Earth, Unknown-Dead.
    Nature, Mordremoth-Dead.
    Light, Unknown-Dead.. Reborn through Aurine.
    Darkness, Zhaitan-Dead.

    The original balance I expect was upset when one of these Spirits (my bet is Primordus) killed the Dragon of Earth who's power was shared with all the others much like how it is today when an Elder Dragon dies, this allowed them to take corporeal form rather than just a spirit form like the animal spirits we know.
    More on this later.

    The lesser spirits such as animals and mountains etc came when Koda with help from her Elemental Spirits created and first filled the world with mortal life.
    These mortal creatures much like humans in some religious stories were considered precious and favoured by God/Koda because they were mortal and their time to exist was so short.. (sound similar to anything you may have heard in the EoD trailer?)

    Much like the angel Lucifer this bred feelings of superiority, jealousy and contempt for mortals within Primordus (as well as other Dragons to a lesser degree) which is what lead to his eventual lust for power.. he wanted to prove himself a god over them and show how insignificant and irrelevant they truly were to him, but he was unable to hurt them directly and could only appear in spirit form and could at most antagonise and torment them but never harm them directly.
    This is why Primordus wanted more power and why he eventually killed the Dragon of Earth giving himself and the other Dragons the power to manifest in corporeal form.

    The Dragon of light being the obvious traditionally benevolent dragon as fantasy is often to imply likely condemned Primordus actions and took pity on the mortal creatures he would eradicate and so the first Elder Dragon conflict took place as the Dragons now corporeal and loose on the world choose sides (most siding with Primordus) and fought one another.
    The Dragon of Light was killed in this conflict and the death of a second Primal Spirit/Elder Dragon is what triggered the current cycle.

    Perhaps this was Koda/Mother's doing as a form of punishment before deciding never again to act directly on this world, who knows but her Children were now bound to Tyria in their immortal corporeal forms like prisoners and doomed to sleep and endure endless hunger and could never again harm one another or they would bring destruction and ruin upon themselves as well as the world that they are now bound too.

    This is pretty much the story/theory I was going for about their origins.
    How the Dragons are the original primal elemental spirits.

    The other spirits were created when other things came into existence, for example The Dragon of Earth created the mountains and so a spirit mountains was born to represent them.
    Primordus the spirit of Fire created flames and so a spirit of flames was born to represent all flames, this spirit is what was given to the Kodan.
    There's a spirit for basically everything as you said and I imagine this is how that is.

    But the original Primal elements, the first 8 Spirits Koda/Mother created, those became what we know as Elder Dragons.
    The rest are lesser spirits born from the creation of other things like Trees, Waves, Birds and other Animals etc.. far inferior to the Elder Dragons but all spirits.

    What passes for mortal beliefs in this world today like the Kodan's religion, the Asura's study of the Eternal Alchemy and the Norn's Spirits of the Wild is all similar to real world religions, convoluted and incomplete, full of holes and at times contradictive, a flaw of mortality and the passage of time.. knowledge lost or destroyed and how beliefs evolve in a changing world etc the real truth forever shrouded and unclear which is why they don't know the truth and choose to believe instead.

    Hope I explained what I was going for a bit better this time around.

  • I think you're trying to make it far more complicated than need be. Especially when things like "wind" is never attributed to Kralkatorrik (except indirectly via the Sky Aspects that are more related to Glint).

    The simple matter, really, is that the behavior of the Spirit of Fire is so vastly different from Primordus that them being the same is very unlikely, and trying to relate the two feels like the same kind of theorycrafting that tried relating the Six Gods to the six Elder Dragons.

    We even interact with the Spirit of Fire's power in Season 3, Taimi even reads its energy signatures, and given how much time she has spent reading Primordus' energy signature during that time, I'm pretty sure she would be able to see if they're the same.

    Taimi: I think you should listen to that bear, Commander. I'm picking up some very high readings from that fire.
    Taimi: Whoa, you've definitely just picked up some ancient magic.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Journey_to_Bitterfrost_Frontier#In_the_Frostgorge_Sound

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.