Quick story question regarding "Champions" (Spoilers) — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Quick story question regarding "Champions" (Spoilers)

edited November 22, 2020 in Lore

So I've been playing through the Icebrood Saga from Chapter 2 to 5 the last few days, and I'm managing to follow the story okay-ish, but when I got to Champions I seemed to just fall of completely.

What was the deal with, just out of the blue, Primordus suddenly awaking and bursting lots of flame monsters out everywhere? It struck me like lightning from a clear sky.

Last chapter ended with Ryland and Bangar becoming Icebrood and Ryland running off with Jormag to some unknown place, with us having to try and track the two of them down. I was pumped and ready to give chase and then all of a sudden they're just like "Oh haha, another Elder Dragon woke up and now the world is ending =)" Why? Isn't the awakening of an ELDER DRAGON kind of a big deal that we usually use whole living world seasons or expansions to set up? It just seemed to me that everything happened so incredibly fast from Chapter 4 to Chapter 5.

Am I just slow on the uptake story-wise, or was this objectively bad and rushed storytelling? Anyone else feel weird about this one or otherwise care to explain why this happened all of a sudden? (And yes I realize Jormag and Primordus are twins, but the awakening of an Elder Dragon is still a massive power shift in the world, and Primo randomly awakening out of nowhere just because of Jormag waking seems so random to me.)

Comments

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    Is Primordis actually awake, or is he in the process of awakening? I mean, destroyers rampage all the time even while he's asleep.

  • Seem to remember they mentioned so when the party were talking with Aurene at the end of Chapter 4, yeah. That Primordus stirs and Jormag wishes to kill them now that they're finally awake.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    @BrotherofShadows.7426 said:
    Seem to remember they mentioned so when the party were talking with Aurene at the end of Chapter 4, yeah. That Primordus stirs and Jormag wishes to kill them now that they're finally awake.

    do this achiv it was released in steps bettwen episode 4-5 so you have to reload map/relog character when you done all the talking spots for each step.

    Confer with Bangar
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag_Rising_(achievements)#achievement5383

  • I'm still confused about how and what the Spirits of the Wild are doing right now and why did Charr have essence from the 3 spirits if we killed Drakkar?

  • A lot of loose ends and confusing story paths in these chapters...

  • You need to ensure you have gone through all of the 'Confer with Bangar' dialog.
    The "Jormag's Enemy" section heavily hint's that whatever was done to waken Jormag, had the same effect on Primordus.
    Basically Jormag and Primordus are inextricably linked in some way.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    @BrotherofShadows.7426 said:
    What was the deal with, just out of the blue, Primordus suddenly awaking and bursting lots of flame monsters out everywhere? It struck me like lightning from a clear sky.

    Last chapter ended with Ryland and Bangar becoming Icebrood and Ryland running off with Jormag to some unknown place, with us having to try and track the two of them down. I was pumped and ready to give chase and then all of a sudden they're just like "Oh haha, another Elder Dragon woke up and now the world is ending =)" Why? Isn't the awakening of an ELDER DRAGON kind of a big deal that we usually use whole living world seasons or expansions to set up? It just seemed to me that everything happened so incredibly fast from Chapter 4 to Chapter 5.

    There is a multi-month gap between the end of Episode 4 and the beginning of Episode 5, which gets explained during the Confer with Bangar post-Episode 4 achievement. During this gap, Primordus began to stir, due to the awakening of Jormag somehow causing it (despite there being a 50 year gap between their awakening last time).

    Primordus is not yet awake, but is awakening.

    They're not spending a whole season on Primordus' awakening because ANet doesn't want to just be retreading the same plot again and again. They did so for Mordremoth because it was the first time they did that plot. With Icebrood Saga, they only spent half a season on that so that they can include other stuff.

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    I'm still confused about how and what the Spirits of the Wild are doing right now and why did Charr have essence from the 3 spirits if we killed Drakkar?

    For the latter: pure mechanics. They wanted to keep the masteries relevant, and they used the same color coding we see in The Ooze Pits meta, where green=Ash, blue=Iron, and red=Blood.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @BrotherofShadows.7426 said:
    What was the deal with, just out of the blue, Primordus suddenly awaking and bursting lots of flame monsters out everywhere? It struck me like lightning from a clear sky.

    Last chapter ended with Ryland and Bangar becoming Icebrood and Ryland running off with Jormag to some unknown place, with us having to try and track the two of them down. I was pumped and ready to give chase and then all of a sudden they're just like "Oh haha, another Elder Dragon woke up and now the world is ending =)" Why? Isn't the awakening of an ELDER DRAGON kind of a big deal that we usually use whole living world seasons or expansions to set up? It just seemed to me that everything happened so incredibly fast from Chapter 4 to Chapter 5.

    There is a multi-month gap between the end of Episode 4 and the beginning of Episode 5, which gets explained during the Confer with Bangar post-Episode 4 achievement. During this gap, Primordus began to stir, due to the awakening of Jormag somehow causing it (despite there being a 50 year gap between their awakening last time).

    Primordus is not yet awake, but is awakening.

    They're not spending a whole season on Primordus' awakening because ANet doesn't want to just be retreading the same plot again and again. They did so for Mordremoth because it was the first time they did that plot. With Icebrood Saga, they only spent half a season on that so that they can include other stuff.

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    I'm still confused about how and what the Spirits of the Wild are doing right now and why did Charr have essence from the 3 spirits if we killed Drakkar?

    For the latter: pure mechanics. They wanted to keep the masteries relevant, and they used the same color coding we see in The Ooze Pits meta, where green=Ash, blue=Iron, and red=Blood.

    They need some EPIC reveals and if by the end of Champions we don't get reveals of certain things I will be highly disappointed i.e. the spirits of the wild were dragon champs or Koda was a dragon champ or Jormag is actually Koda...like SOMETHING god anything at this point.

    Are we straight up not getting any more spirits of the wild masteries? Wasn't that the point of icebrood saga...to get to know the spirits?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @BrotherofShadows.7426 said:
    What was the deal with, just out of the blue, Primordus suddenly awaking and bursting lots of flame monsters out everywhere? It struck me like lightning from a clear sky.

    Last chapter ended with Ryland and Bangar becoming Icebrood and Ryland running off with Jormag to some unknown place, with us having to try and track the two of them down. I was pumped and ready to give chase and then all of a sudden they're just like "Oh haha, another Elder Dragon woke up and now the world is ending =)" Why? Isn't the awakening of an ELDER DRAGON kind of a big deal that we usually use whole living world seasons or expansions to set up? It just seemed to me that everything happened so incredibly fast from Chapter 4 to Chapter 5.

    There is a multi-month gap between the end of Episode 4 and the beginning of Episode 5, which gets explained during the Confer with Bangar post-Episode 4 achievement. During this gap, Primordus began to stir, due to the awakening of Jormag somehow causing it (despite there being a 50 year gap between their awakening last time).

    Primordus is not yet awake, but is awakening.

    They're not spending a whole season on Primordus' awakening because ANet doesn't want to just be retreading the same plot again and again. They did so for Mordremoth because it was the first time they did that plot. With Icebrood Saga, they only spent half a season on that so that they can include other stuff.

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    I'm still confused about how and what the Spirits of the Wild are doing right now and why did Charr have essence from the 3 spirits if we killed Drakkar?

    For the latter: pure mechanics. They wanted to keep the masteries relevant, and they used the same color coding we see in The Ooze Pits meta, where green=Ash, blue=Iron, and red=Blood.

    They need some EPIC reveals and if by the end of Champions we don't get reveals of certain things I will be highly disappointed i.e. the spirits of the wild were dragon champs or Koda was a dragon champ or Jormag is actually Koda...like SOMETHING god anything at this point.

    Are we straight up not getting any more spirits of the wild masteries? Wasn't that the point of icebrood saga...to get to know the spirits?

    Jormag the judge, icebrood the jury.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Good points with the Confer with Bangar achievement, I'll check those back next I play. It's still a bit odd that they'd stow such an important story element away in an optional achievement though, it makes the sudden "Primordus is awake now by the way" very jarring for players who aren't playing live, or who don't chase achieves.

    And yeah I agree with Delirium, I hope we get some form of major reveal or setup for the end of Champions, we need something to build some hype again.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2020

    @BrotherofShadows.7426 said:
    it makes the sudden "Primordus is awake now by the way" very jarring for players who aren't playing live, or who don't chase achieves.

    Primordus isn't awake yet. Primordus is stirring. He's basically in the state Jormag was from Episodes 1-3. Hence Jormag's line that is in the first instance and the trailer:

    Bangar Ruinbringer/Jormag: My brother is incapable of subtlety. He stirs. And when he awakens, it will not be with the same grace as I.

    Present tense: Stirs.

    Future tense: when, will

    People are treating Primordus' reawakening as inevitable, but not having happened yet.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2020

    well it is slightly expect since Anet does want to end the Elder Dragon Story Arc and begin a new Story Arc that no longer involves Elder Dragons being the center of attention in some shape or form.

    Where the story may go once the End of Dragons has happened and the Elder Dragons are no longer a threat to the world we can only speculate because once it is over the Commander and the people he or she has known will finally be free to enter the unknown 80% of the world we have never seen.

    A new story Arc with new civilizations, maybe new races, new cultures for vanity, and etc that is no longer restricted to past certain lores of GW1 and Elder Dragons.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2020

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    well it is slightly expect since Anet does want to end the Elder Dragon Story Arc and begin a new Story Arc that no longer involves Elder Dragons being the center of attention in some shape or form.

    Where the story may go once the End of Dragons has happened and the Elder Dragons are no longer a threat to the world we can only speculate because once it is over the Commander and the people he or she has known will finally be free to enter the unknown 80% of the world we have never seen.

    A new story Arc with new civilizations, maybe new races, new cultures for vanity, and etc that is no longer restricted to past certain lores of GW1 and Elder Dragons.

    You forget one much bigger possibility:
    The story could just end once Elder Dragons no longer are a problem and the game enters maintenance mode.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    well it is slightly expect since Anet does want to end the Elder Dragon Story Arc and begin a new Story Arc that no longer involves Elder Dragons being the center of attention in some shape or form.

    Where the story may go once the End of Dragons has happened and the Elder Dragons are no longer a threat to the world we can only speculate because once it is over the Commander and the people he or she has known will finally be free to enter the unknown 80% of the world we have never seen.

    A new story Arc with new civilizations, maybe new races, new cultures for vanity, and etc that is no longer restricted to past certain lores of GW1 and Elder Dragons.

    You forget one much bigger possibility:
    The story could just end once Elder Dragons no longer are a problem and the game enters maintenance mode.

    i considered that long ago but I expect that will only happen if GW3 is in production or if Anet wants to end the GW series.

    Since we know GW3 is not in production from a announcement a while ago and Anet wants to continue development of GW2 after Elder Dragon storyline is finished during EoD Era contents, I can only assume they have already made plans to continue GW2 in a new story direction but just need to finish up Elder Dragon Arc.

  • Doom 'n Gloom hat - on!

    Expansion 3 hits: End of Dragons and then maybe 1 or 2 more Living World Seasons / Saga's before maintenance mode. Keep in mind that this time frame is 2-3 years out starting at release and intitial 6 month period after End Of Dragons releases. Source for life after EoD: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1319801/#Comment_1319801
    Say it releases in August 2021 (makes sense if you look @ the roadmap: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-icebrood-saga-champions/) and calculate for Dragon Bash in June and Festival of the Four Winds in July. 6 month period for the Expansion itself so LW Season 6 starts somewhere in April 2022, LW Season 7 in 2023.

    Perhaps it will be just LW Season 6 and not even a LWS 7. Not unfounded if you look at Anet's trackrecord regarding GW. Eye of the North was the first standalone Expansion instead of Full Campaign and was filled up with unfinished stories afterwards(Livia in Ascalon, Mysterious FIgure during Wintersday in Droknar).

    On the positive side, at worst we have 2-3 years more fun to have with GW2 as it is and our beloved characters. And hey, by that time we might al be quenching for GW3. I know I'll be playing it. Been through the transition once(GW1 -> GW2), wouldn't mind doing it again.

    -AB

  • @Aerick Blackmoore.8167 said:
    intitial 6 month period after End Of Dragons releases [...] 6 month period for the Expansion itself so LW Season 6 starts somewhere in April 2022, LW Season 7 in 2023.

    Where do you get that? Season 4 started right after Path of Fire, no gap. Season 4 Episode 1 was 2 months after PoF, just as PoF was 2 months after Season 3 Episode 6.

    I could see them doing a "small update" right after instead, making Season 6 beginning 4 months after. But no reasoning for a 6 month period.

    Or 6 month before, the roadmap ends in May - making July a likely candidate. Or September, if July has an epilogue or intermission release (like a Visions of the Past 2 thing).

    Eye of the North was the first standalone Expansion instead of Full Campaign and was filled up with unfinished stories afterwards(Livia in Ascalon, Mysterious FIgure during Wintersday in Droknar).

    That's because Eye of the North was intentionally created to lead into GW2, a bit different situation (and the Mysterious Figure came in even later, as part of Guild Wars Beyond that got cut because people jumped to GW2 at its launch, leaving ANet thinking there was no bang for GW1 anymore, sadly).

    And that's the key thing - if people stay with GW2 despite another game's launch, ANet will keep providing GW2 content, even if it's at a much smaller scale. They dropped all support for GW1 because when GW2 released, a lot of people left for GW2, to the point where it wasn't profitable after watching demographics for 3 months (development formally stopped in November 2012).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aerick Blackmoore.8167 said:
    6 month period for the Expansion itself

    Why assume this when Path of Fire came out Sep 2017, and LWS4 began Nov 2017? We will probably get 2-3 months, not 6, before the next LW seasons starts after EoD.

    Though I will say I can see two more LW season after EoD. LWS6 will probably be to EoD as LWS4 was to PoF. PoF took us to the desert and northern Elona, while LWS4 expanded on Elona. EoD will take us to Cantha, and LWS6 will add more into Cantha, and tie up loose ends from EoD. LWS7, if it happens, will probably be used to finish up the last remaining major plot threads. Assuming the hypothetical LWS6 and 7 are around the same 16-18 months we saw with LWS4 and IBS, that gives us around another 3 years after EoD before its done. The game would end around the 12th anniversary which, TBH, is longer then most MMOs last in terms of getting new content.

    As it stands, GW2 has closed up most of the plot threads it started at launch, and even since then.

    • Humans(Bandits are defeated, White Mantle has crumbled, centaurs have been pushed out, peace made with Charr/able to build new settlements in Ascalon)
    • Sylvari(Mystery behind their origin revealed, Pale Tree healed, Nightmare Court largely crushed)
    • Charr(Branded are dead, Flame Legion brought back into Charr society, peace with Humans made, Charr civil war over Khan-Ur done)
    • Norn(Learned the truth behind Asgeir's battle with Jormag, discovered what happened to the lost spirits, Jormag's tooth prophecy enacted)
    • Elona(Forged defeated, Joko dead and his empire fallen, Sunspears restored, new government rebuilding the nation)
    • Cantha(EoD and LWS6 will likely deal with the corrupt empire/Kurzicks/Luxons/Canthan racism)

    There's only a few things like the Asura story stuff(we will probably get at least some of this in Champions), Malyck, the ghosts of Ascalon, and Wizard Tower(likely a raid if anything) But really. All the major plot threads GW2 has started are mostly done. Keeping a story going for 12 years is pretty kitten difficult without running into the "what do we do next" issue.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Aerick Blackmoore.8167 said:
    6 month period for the Expansion itself

    Why assume this when Path of Fire came out Sep 2017, and LWS4 began Nov 2017? We will probably get 2-3 months, not 6, before the next LW seasons starts after EoD.

    Though I will say I can see two more LW season after EoD. LWS6 will probably be to EoD as LWS4 was to PoF. PoF took us to the desert and northern Elona, while LWS4 expanded on Elona. EoD will take us to Cantha, and LWS6 will add more into Cantha, and tie up loose ends from EoD. LWS7, if it happens, will probably be used to finish up the last remaining major plot threads. Assuming the hypothetical LWS6 and 7 are around the same 16-18 months we saw with LWS4 and IBS, that gives us around another 3 years after EoD before its done. The game would end around the 12th anniversary which, TBH, is longer then most MMOs last in terms of getting new content.

    As it stands, GW2 has closed up most of the plot threads it started at launch, and even since then.

    • Humans(Bandits are defeated, White Mantle has crumbled, centaurs have been pushed out, peace made with Charr/able to build new settlements in Ascalon)
    • Sylvari(Mystery behind their origin revealed, Pale Tree healed, Nightmare Court largely crushed)
    • Charr(Branded are dead, Flame Legion brought back into Charr society, peace with Humans made, Charr civil war over Khan-Ur done)
    • Norn(Learned the truth behind Asgeir's battle with Jormag, discovered what happened to the lost spirits, Jormag's tooth prophecy enacted)
    • Elona(Forged defeated, Joko dead and his empire fallen, Sunspears restored, new government rebuilding the nation)
    • Cantha(EoD and LWS6 will likely deal with the corrupt empire/Kurzicks/Luxons/Canthan racism)

    There's only a few things like the Asura story stuff(we will probably get at least some of this in Champions), Malyck, the ghosts of Ascalon, and Wizard Tower(likely a raid if anything) But really. All the major plot threads GW2 has started are mostly done. Keeping a story going for 12 years is pretty kitten difficult without running into the "what do we do next" issue.

    Aside from what you listed at the bottom, multiple threads you say are closed are only partially addressed, and each of them could easily blow up into an expansion or at least living world season;

    Centaurs have been pushed out? Well, they've suffered defeats and were probably in disarray for a few years after we killed the Ulgoth, but they still have their home in the woodland cascades to attack from. Our last update was Lake Doric, and they were still antagonizing humans. I actually hope this one becomes a full plot because I really want to see the entire woodland cascades, whether in an expansion or living world.

    I also feel like the peace with Charr and Humans is kind of strained at best. Anet likely won't address it given our path leads to Cantha, but if they had wanted to they could have fractured that peace in the Icebrood Saga. Obviously Bangar wasn't big on humans and I seem to remember some NPC somewhere along the way having dialogue that made me think there could still be potential for a war with these races? Can't remember who though and it's not likely now, but worth mentioning.

    And the Nightmare Court got a new leader. The story was mostly cut from HoT so we haven't learned much of anything about what they're up to nowadays. Maybe with Champions being all about allies worldwide, we'll see them again?

    The Norn plot is still active, not resolved. The tooth prophecy is not done, Jormag isn't dead. Did all Norn learn the truth about Aesgir or just our character? Yeah the spirits are still alive, even including Owl, but how are they reacting? What does this mean for them? Many unanswered questions.

    Forged are still roaming here and there, I believe. And there was the implication that the order of shadows was more sinister than we had first thought. And of course I'm sure there are pockets of branded still around too. There's reason to revisit Elona too, though not much I suppose.

    Not to mention countless other teases, like Kodan being from the even more distant far north, the Krait obelisks and their prophecies about their prophets returning to flood the world, The mystery of the human gods, particularly Lyssa. There's supposedly giants across the Blazeridge mountains right? And ogres came into Ascalon from there too, why are they leaving? What about the rumored Charr lands to the east as well, Ash lands? And the Blood Citadel. And the trade routes on the order of whispers map with one route going to another continent we know nothing about - a 4th human homeland? Similarly, the old Utopia lore was recently brought up in the Guild Wars art book and made to fit into the current canon, and now we know about some mysterious island in the mists called Xotecha where the old gods before the six we've ever known lived. And the Maguuma Wastes, remember something caused them to dry up - it was implied to be Primordus, but was never confirmed. And anyway, why would he do that and when was he over there? Also the Isles of Janthir, the potential Mursaat homelands, and the rumors people with True Sight lived there? Why was Caudecus headed there in season 3? There must be something happening there. The purification of Orr and a potential storyline where both humans and sylvari try to live in Orr again, and this also brings up the subject of dragon minions after all the dragons are dead. The Mordrem Guard were capable of thinking for themselves, where are they? Still just sitting around in the jungle? Remember the implication that harpies came from Dzalana, and may have some sort of ties to Dwayna? Remember the Largos and their assassin based culture with houses, how does that work? Where are they and what's their story outside of being menaced by the DSD?

    There are easily 5 more expansions of content just from the hints they've already dropped through the years, and of course, being the writers of the franchise, anet can add literally whatever they want wherever and whenever they want. The game has limitless potential and no need to die after the ED plot ends.

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2020

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    There are easily 5 more expansions of content just from the hints they've already dropped through the years, and of course, being the writers of the franchise, anet can add literally whatever they want wherever and whenever they want. The game has limitless potential and no need to die after the ED plot ends.

    The problem with everything you listed above is that its based on arguments of totality, and that isn't how writing works.

    There are going to be Centaurs attacking Humans, Renegades and Separatists running around, remnants of groups like the Nightmare Court, and Flame Legion(the evil part of it) still active, for years, if not decades to come, because those sorts of ideas don't just simply instantly die the moment their leadership is killed. That doesn't mean however that the story will, or even should, do anything with them. Its like saying Lord of the Rings could have gone on for three more books because they didn't kill every single one of Sauron's orcs, and thus the orcs could pose a threat. Yeah, that could happen, but at some point you have to concede that a group is so beaten down that them being front and center in the plot strains belief, and is no longer interesting.

    Not to mention countless other teases, like Kodan being from the even more distant far north
    the Krait obelisks and their prophecies about their prophets returning to flood the world,
    The mystery of the human gods, particularly Lyssa.
    There's supposedly giants across the Blazeridge mountains right?
    And ogres came into Ascalon from there too, why are they leaving?
    What about the rumored Charr lands to the east as well, Ash lands? And the Blood Citadel.
    And the trade routes on the order of whispers map with one route going to another continent we know nothing about - a 4th human homeland?
    Similarly, the old Utopia lore was recently brought up in the Guild Wars art book and made to fit into the current canon, and now we know about some mysterious island in the mists called Xotecha where the old gods before the six we've ever known lived.
    And the Maguuma Wastes, remember something caused them to dry up - it was implied to be Primordus, but was never confirmed. And anyway, why would he do that and when was he over there?
    Also the Isles of Janthir, the potential Mursaat homelands, and the rumors people with True Sight lived there? Why was Caudecus headed there in season 3? There must be something happening there.
    The purification of Orr and a potential storyline where both humans and sylvari try to live in Orr again,
    and this also brings up the subject of dragon minions after all the dragons are dead. The Mordrem Guard were capable of thinking for themselves, where are they? Still just sitting around in the jungle?
    Remember the implication that harpies came from Dzalana, and may have some sort of ties to Dwayna?
    Remember the Largos and their assassin based culture with houses, how does that work? Where are they and what's their story outside of being menaced by the DSD?

    • And they all came south because of Jormag attacking them. Same with the arctic Quaggan.
    • DSD story element.
    • Almost certainly EoD or LWS6. And there isn't much of a mystery. Balthazar is dead, Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, are confirmed gone, and Lyssa is up to something. The only one we don't know about is Dwayna.
    • The other side of the Blazeridge Mountains is Charr lands.
    • Lore states they had attacked the humans and Charr in Ascalon in the past, they were just pushed back. Kralkatorrik's awakening, and the creation of the brand, pushed back the Charr, which allowed them to spread down from the mountains as they had been trying to for ages beforehand. They aren't leaving, just spreading out like all races do.
    • There is no rumor about it. We know Charr have lands to the east. What about them? Its just more Charr lands ala Ascalon, but without all the problems Ascalon has.
    • The Order of Whispers map had no trade routes. The trade routes were on the Durmand Priory floor map. And yes we know there are humans elsewhere due to Whispers agent Doern Velazquez.
    • And Anet themselves have said Utopia isn't canon so... its not canon.
    • The dragons naturally cause massive world destruction wherever they, or their minions, go. He also doesn't need to be over there directly. As for why he would have sent his minions over there, ley lines.
    • The Mursaat are all dead as per LWS3. As for why did Caudecus go there, because the White Mantle would have obviously had bases/outposts out there in the homeland of their gods. He would have been trying to rally more of the Mantle behind him.
    • Orr is a waterlogged wreck, full of Risen, even years after Zhaitan's defeat. It would be decades before any sort of resettlement occurs, and thats far otuside the scope of the game.
    • We already see what happens to dragon minions after the dragon's death. They lose power and become disorganized. As for the Mordrem Guard, Rox mentions the Maguuma is still swarming with Mordrem, and in the Festival of the Four Winds after HoT we can meet a sylvari who was a Mordrem Guard that turned back after the dragon's defeat. Those with the willpower to do so have turned back, while those that didn't are still in the jungle. That question was already answered.
    • If GW2 was ever going to explore Dzalana it would have been in PoF or LWS4, and it didn't happen.
    • Again, a DSD plot element much like how we got more Kodan lore with Icebrood Saga.
  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    There are easily 5 more expansions of content just from the hints they've already dropped through the years, and of course, being the writers of the franchise, anet can add literally whatever they want wherever and whenever they want. The game has limitless potential and no need to die after the ED plot ends.

    The problem with everything you listed above is that its based on arguments of totality, and that isn't how writing works.

    There are going to be Centaurs attacking Humans, Renegades and Separatists running around, remnants of groups like the Nightmare Court, and Flame Legion(the evil part of it) still active, for years, if not decades to come, because those sorts of ideas don't just simply instantly die the moment their leadership is killed. That doesn't mean however that the story will, or even should, do anything with them. Its like saying Lord of the Rings could have gone on for three more books because they didn't kill every single one of Sauron's orcs, and thus the orcs could pose a threat. Yeah, that could happen, but at some point you have to concede that a group is so beaten down that them being front and center in the plot strains belief, and is no longer interesting.

    Not to mention countless other teases, like Kodan being from the even more distant far north
    the Krait obelisks and their prophecies about their prophets returning to flood the world,
    The mystery of the human gods, particularly Lyssa.
    There's supposedly giants across the Blazeridge mountains right?
    And ogres came into Ascalon from there too, why are they leaving?
    What about the rumored Charr lands to the east as well, Ash lands? And the Blood Citadel.
    And the trade routes on the order of whispers map with one route going to another continent we know nothing about - a 4th human homeland?
    Similarly, the old Utopia lore was recently brought up in the Guild Wars art book and made to fit into the current canon, and now we know about some mysterious island in the mists called Xotecha where the old gods before the six we've ever known lived.
    And the Maguuma Wastes, remember something caused them to dry up - it was implied to be Primordus, but was never confirmed. And anyway, why would he do that and when was he over there?
    Also the Isles of Janthir, the potential Mursaat homelands, and the rumors people with True Sight lived there? Why was Caudecus headed there in season 3? There must be something happening there.
    The purification of Orr and a potential storyline where both humans and sylvari try to live in Orr again,
    and this also brings up the subject of dragon minions after all the dragons are dead. The Mordrem Guard were capable of thinking for themselves, where are they? Still just sitting around in the jungle?
    Remember the implication that harpies came from Dzalana, and may have some sort of ties to Dwayna?
    Remember the Largos and their assassin based culture with houses, how does that work? Where are they and what's their story outside of being menaced by the DSD?

    • And they all came south because of Jormag attacking them. Same with the arctic Quaggan.
    • DSD story element.
    • Almost certainly EoD or LWS6. And there isn't much of a mystery. Balthazar is dead, Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, are confirmed gone, and Lyssa is up to something. The only one we don't know about is Dwayna.
    • The other side of the Blazeridge Mountains is Charr lands.
    • Lore states they had attacked the humans and Charr in Ascalon in the past, they were just pushed back. Kralkatorrik's awakening, and the creation of the brand, pushed back the Charr, which allowed them to spread down from the mountains as they had been trying to for ages beforehand. They aren't leaving, just spreading out like all races do.
    • There is no rumor about it. We know Charr have lands to the east. What about them? Its just more Charr lands ala Ascalon, but without all the problems Ascalon has.
    • The Order of Whispers map had no trade routes. The trade routes were on the Durmand Priory floor map. And yes we know there are humans elsewhere due to Whispers agent Doern Velazquez.
    • And Anet themselves have said Utopia isn't canon so... its not canon.
    • The dragons naturally cause massive world destruction wherever they, or their minions, go. He also doesn't need to be over there directly. As for why he would have sent his minions over there, ley lines.
    • The Mursaat are all dead as per LWS3. As for why did Caudecus go there, because the White Mantle would have obviously had bases/outposts out there in the homeland of their gods. He would have been trying to rally more of the Mantle behind him.
    • Orr is a waterlogged wreck, full of Risen, even years after Zhaitan's defeat. It would be decades before any sort of resettlement occurs, and thats far otuside the scope of the game.
    • We already see what happens to dragon minions after the dragon's death. They lose power and become disorganized. As for the Mordrem Guard, Rox mentions the Maguuma is still swarming with Mordrem, and in the Festival of the Four Winds after HoT we can meet a sylvari who was a Mordrem Guard that turned back after the dragon's defeat. Those with the willpower to do so have turned back, while those that didn't are still in the jungle. That question was already answered.
    • If GW2 was ever going to explore Dzalana it would have been in PoF or LWS4, and it didn't happen.
    • Again, a DSD plot element much like how we got more Kodan lore with Icebrood Saga.

    Ok, I get what you’re saying. Not every plot thread will be or needs to be addressed. And some of them would be a lot less exciting than they sound and don’t warrant an expansion. To be clear though, I didn’t mean all of those points would be full expansions. Particularly the army remnant stories like the forged and dragon minions - I’d only want a living world episode, maybe two, for any one of those threads and even then they’d include other story elements in the episode. I’d say if lord of the rings has originally been told as an MMO it would’ve been ok for there to be a chapter or two of epilogue addressing the remaining army, if anything interesting happened. I imagine there may be a lieutenant or two left of a given Dragon, and they may be leading the forces to do something worth noting. But that’s all up to anet.

    So yeah, maybe there’s only say.. 3 expansions worth or content in the points I listed? And my point that anet can pull any story they want out of their butt whenever still stands. If they want the game to continue, it will. And I just don’t see the need for a sequel, I hate how games are always moving on to the next version. Why bother getting attached to a game if you know ahead of time they won’t stick with it as long as they could? That’s always bothered me with games like battlefield or call of duty that release a new one every few years, and it’s something I’ve loved about MMOs like WoW and the other big names (GW2 included)

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    So yeah, maybe there’s only say.. 3 expansions worth or content in the points I listed?

    Weill, given that EoD is taking us to Cantha, and seemingly going to involve the Deep Sea Dragon, I would say maybe 1, assuming Anet actually wants to show us the 4th human homeland.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    So yeah, maybe there’s only say.. 3 expansions worth or content in the points I listed?

    Weill, given that EoD is taking us to Cantha, and seemingly going to involve the Deep Sea Dragon, I would say maybe 1, assuming Anet actually wants to show us the 4th human homeland.

    I agree this is fairly likely to be the next story. That's actually why I mentioned Utopia. In the 20th anniversary Guild Wars art book there's an entire chapter about Utopia lore including brand new art and lore, and old lore retconned to fit with the current story. WP explains it really well here;

    Anyway, the theory could easily be wrong, but it seems like anet is laying out a little groundwork to go back to some of the ideas from Utopia. But like he says in the video, I also think it would a little lame to have an entire expansion in the mists with nothing on the real map. I wouldn't be surprised to see something like Nightfall in GW1 tho, with new regions (Elona) AND Mists areas (Underworld, Fissure of Woe, all that). We could see an xpac with Xotecha in the mists and part of that new continent on the world map. From what tiny bit we know, it seems like the original idea for that place was tied to Utopia, and may have been the worldly location for it if it had been finished in GW1. It makes sense that they'd still keep such a basic outline, and we could see the 4th continent humans settled on. Maybe it's even the first.

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    the Krait obelisks and their prophecies about their prophets returning to flood the world,

    • DSD story element.

    Not necessarily. While krait and largos may become involved, the prophet could be used to be entirely separate, similar to Balthazar in Season 3. Their is plenty of potential to be explored without the DSD.

    The mystery of the human gods, particularly Lyssa.

    • Almost certainly EoD or LWS6. And there isn't much of a mystery. Balthazar is dead, Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, are confirmed gone, and Lyssa is up to something. The only one we don't know about is Dwayna.

    Hard disagree. I know you're really strong feeling towards your theory of Lyssa's involvement because of purpose mist in the trailer, but there's really nothing solid to put Lyssa in EoD - let alone Season 6 (assuming this wraps up some EoD major plot thread). ANet did promise that "the gods' story is not finished" - whether this involves them returning (because the Elder Dragon threat that caused them to leave has been solved, or because they found something worse and need the Dragon Slayer's help), or because Lyssa alone is up to debate and not something we can solidly argue one way or another. I feel doubtful they'll just wrap that back into an Elder Dragon lead-in again since they don't really replicate plotlines (in GW2) that closely.

    There's also the topic of Menzies, who could serve as a major antagonist, and hell if ANet wanted, they could even make Desmina an antagonist or bring back Dhuum again. Plenty of plot potential present among god material.

    There's supposedly giants across the Blazeridge mountains right?

    • The other side of the Blazeridge Mountains is Charr lands.

    Partially. But there's a HUGE kitten expanse of land out that way. Nothing about giants though.

    And ogres came into Ascalon from there too, why are they leaving?

    • Lore states they had attacked the humans and Charr in Ascalon in the past, they were just pushed back. Kralkatorrik's awakening, and the creation of the brand, pushed back the Charr, which allowed them to spread down from the mountains as they had been trying to for ages beforehand. They aren't leaving, just spreading out like all races do.

    Minor correction: Ogres are leaving (or rather, expanding) specifically because of overpopulation. While there were attacks in the past, this was just raiding. Sajuuk is correct about the Kralkatorrik part.

    What about the rumored Charr lands to the east as well, Ash lands? And the Blood Citadel.
    And the trade routes on the order of whispers map with one route going to another continent we know nothing about - a 4th human homeland?
    Also the Isles of Janthir, the potential Mursaat homelands, and the rumors people with True Sight lived there? Why was Caudecus headed there in season 3? There must be something happening there.
    Remember the implication that harpies came from Dzalana, and may have some sort of ties to Dwayna?
    Remember the Largos and their assassin based culture with houses, how does that work? Where are they and what's their story outside of being menaced by the DSD?

    • There is no rumor about it. We know Charr have lands to the east. What about them? Its just more Charr lands ala Ascalon, but without all the problems Ascalon has.
    • The Order of Whispers map had no trade routes. The trade routes were on the Durmand Priory floor map. And yes we know there are humans elsewhere due to Whispers agent Doern Velazquez.
    • The Mursaat are all dead as per LWS3. As for why did Caudecus go there, because the White Mantle would have obviously had bases/outposts out there in the homeland of their gods. He would have been trying to rally more of the Mantle behind him.
    • If GW2 was ever going to explore Dzalana it would have been in PoF or LWS4, and it didn't happen.
    • Again, a DSD plot element much like how we got more Kodan lore with Icebrood Saga.

    These places are all ripe for exploration after EoD (and maybe S6) with the potential for new lore, and new plots. There's an entire place to explore if ANet wanted.

    The question isn't "is there a plot there", because ANet can with ease make something up - like how Scarlet and Balthazar came out of thin air as far as plot setup in GW2 was concerned - but rather the question is "does ANet want to make a plot there?"

    Similarly, the old Utopia lore was recently brought up in the Guild Wars art book and made to fit into the current canon, and now we know about some mysterious island in the mists called Xotecha where the old gods before the six we've ever known lived.

    • And Anet themselves have said Utopia isn't canon so... its not canon.

    ANet said that before the book. With the book, they said it was written in a way that it may-be-canon-may-not-be-canon. They're leaving it open ended, intentionally.

    Wonder why.

    (Not saying they're going to use it, but they certainly could for post-Elder Dragon storyline. God killers would be a predictable threat level up from magic consumers.)

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    So yeah, maybe there’s only say.. 3 expansions worth or content in the points I listed?

    Weill, given that EoD is taking us to Cantha, and seemingly going to involve the Deep Sea Dragon, I would say maybe 1, assuming Anet actually wants to show us the 4th human homeland.

    While I would LOVE an expansion to the Sunrise Crest, I could very easily see ANet making use of Forsaken Cliffs and/or "Olympus" in a god-returning/Lyssa plot. Sending us far east.

    Could also see them using Sunken Isles and the waters around for a "krait prophets return to destroy the planet now that the Elder Dragon threat is no more" plot.

    Hell, quite a lot of potential "now that the Elder Dragon threat is gone, all this kitten's returning because they left due to fear of the Elder Dragons and the world's kitten in a different way".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Hard disagree. I know you're really strong feeling towards your theory of Lyssa's involvement because of purpose mist in the trailer, but there's really nothing solid to put Lyssa in EoD - let alone Season 6 (assuming this wraps up some EoD major plot thread). ANet did promise that "the gods' story is not finished" - whether this involves them returning (because the Elder Dragon threat that caused them to leave has been solved, or because they found something worse and need the Dragon Slayer's help), or because Lyssa alone is up to debate and not something we can solidly argue one way or another. I feel doubtful they'll just wrap that back into an Elder Dragon lead-in again since they don't really replicate plotlines (in GW2) that closely.

    >

    In honesty, I still get this feeling the new Storyline they maybe planning after the Elder Dragon Saga ends is the God Saga Storyline that leads us into the lands beyond the currently known lands we have only seen since GW1.

    There are vast amount of land and probably civilizations we have yet to meet and some may have new Gods and Goddesses we have never seen before. Some of these new Arcs may even provide deeping understanding of who and what the Gods really are. They may even go deeper into the nature of Tyria itself and why the Gods developed such interests in the world.

  • @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    There are vast amount of land and probably civilizations we have yet to meet and some may have new Gods and Goddesses we have never seen before.

    Would be neat if we finally got to see some decent evidence to the existence of gods outside of the Six. Spirits of the Wild don't really count, but Koda and Zintl (among others) could make an appearance once the Elder Dragons aren't threatening to gobble them up.

    For good or ill.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Hard disagree. I know you're really strong feeling towards your theory of Lyssa's involvement because of purpose mist in the trailer,

    The purple mist has little to nothing to do with why I suspect Lyssa involvement. It has more to do with it just making sense.

    Lyssa was stated back in the Orrian history scrolls the be the one most connected with mortals. So much so the other gods pretty much forcibly dragged her into Arah once it was complete. Balthazar not cursing Lyssa's name, and the fact he was using an artifact of Lyssa to disguise himself as Lazarus, implies she was helping him. Either directly or indirectly.

    If Lyssa doesn't show up with some plan to defeat the last dragon, or at least help fix the balance once they are all dead, then what is the purpose of the set up at all? If she doesn't care about the 6 literal world destroying, god-tier, Elder Dragons threatening the mortals, then what does she care about? The same goes for if not Cantha then where else? why would she just be twiddling her thumbs off in BFE instead of being in, or near, humans lands to help the humans?

    There's also the topic of Menzies, who could serve as a major antagonist, and hell if ANet wanted, they could even make Desmina an antagonist or bring back Dhuum again. Plenty of plot potential present among god material.

    Hasn't it been largely implied that Menzies is dead? And Desmina seemed truly loyal to Grenth's ideals. Having her go evil, or have Dhuum come back, just kinda defeats the purpose of the Hall of Chains raid.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    There are vast amount of land and probably civilizations we have yet to meet and some may have new Gods and Goddesses we have never seen before.

    Would be neat if we finally got to see some decent evidence to the existence of gods outside of the Six. Spirits of the Wild don't really count, but Koda and Zintl (among others) could make an appearance once the Elder Dragons aren't threatening to gobble them up.

    For good or ill.

    It will also open up a lot of potential lore for new Elite Specs as well due to how different the new civilizations may have developed their knowledge with each Profession.

    Part of Elite Spec's developement now is their lore being tied into lore we already know about in a certain way which is why there are expectation within the community for what can and cannot happen for X or Y Elite Spec.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Hard disagree. I know you're really strong feeling towards your theory of Lyssa's involvement because of purpose mist in the trailer,

    The purple mist has little to nothing to do with why I suspect Lyssa involvement. It has more to do with it just making sense.

    Lyssa was stated back in the Orrian history scrolls the be the one most connected with mortals. So much so the other gods pretty much forcibly dragged her into Arah once it was complete. Balthazar not cursing Lyssa's name, and the fact he was using an artifact of Lyssa to disguise himself as Lazarus, implies she was helping him. Either directly or indirectly.

    If Lyssa doesn't show up with some plan to defeat the last dragon, or at least help fix the balance once they are all dead, then what is the purpose of the set up at all? If she doesn't care about the 6 literal world destroying, god-tier, Elder Dragons threatening the mortals, then what does she care about? The same goes for if not Cantha then where else? why would she just be twiddling her thumbs off in BFE instead of being in, or near, humans lands to help the humans?

    The major flaw in your argument is twofold:

    1) It was Kormir, not Lyssa, who kept assisting humans after GW1, and Lyssa was mocking Kormir for this.

    2) Killing Elder Dragons endangers the very Tyrians you proclaim she'd be wanting to protect. So helping Balthazar would hinder her own plans there.

    I don't think the ancient history of 1,000 years ago has anything to do with the Lyssa hints in PoF, as PoF firmly establishes that the gods grow increasingly distant from mortals over time; and it's pretty heavily implied Balthazar got the Mirror of Lyssa from the Orrian reliquaries - her own aid would be irrelevant, either directly or indirectly - by the fact that he arrived and hid the aspect of Lazarus without a disguise, but left with a disguise.

    The set up is much more strongly establishing Lyssa as a possible future villain, not some "I will help mortals even if the other gods won't" figure. Or Kormir, if my theory is accurate.

    Hasn't it been largely implied that Menzies is dead? And Desmina seemed truly loyal to Grenth's ideals. Having her go evil, or have Dhuum come back, just kinda defeats the purpose of the Hall of Chains raid.

    There hasn't actually been a strong implication one way or the other about Menzies' fate. People take the two weapons as "heavy implication" but ultimately, they're not. The best we have is that Balthazar was bored of no conflict - but the very same source says Balthazar has been idle since Abaddon rebelled just before the Exodus, thus discrediting Menzies' existence entirely with that statement (whether intentional or not is hard to tell because ANet devs tend to forget obvious things sometimes).

    As to Desmina, I'm not so sure. Her final lines in the raid were very ominous to me, and her actions very questionable - not very "justice is equal for all" that is Grenth.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.