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Frustrated again...

Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

Comments

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You Eu or Na?

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You Eu or Na?

    What has that got to do with anything? It's not like you can portal OP to the end, wintersday JP needs to be done manually...

    @Wolf.2596
    Yeah, some of the JPs required are ridiculous. Especially the Halloween one. I can use both my arms and can't finish it.
    The thing is, they probably do this so everyone would participate in every event they planned, at least a little. So that all that design work doesn't go to waste.
    And the precentage of disadvantaged players is probably small, and it's obvious tha they didn't really think about it sadly...

    However...

    Did you try contacting Anet support? If you talk to them and explain the situation, maybe back it up with some evidence so they know you literally can't finish the puzzle on a timer, maybe they can just complete that achievement for you, so you can focus on other stuff you can do.

    Worth a try i think. I'm sure they can be reasonable if you talk to them directly through support.

    Other than that, i've seen on this forum some people discussing a foot controller when they can't use hand or hands, i don't know if you already have that or not but it's a thing that can maybe help you idk...

    So, since i doubt they'll start designing events and content differently than they do now, it's probably best to talk to them directly and ask if they can help you with that achievement somehow.

    Good luck!

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wolf.2596 said:
    Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

    This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

    There is none if you can't do the easy version to the right. Only way i can think is ask a bf / gf or family member esp if you got a niece or nephew.Like above who know if anet could auto complete it for you if they can see you haven't ever completed the JP in 4 years

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You Eu or Na?

    What has that got to do with anything? It's not like you can portal OP to the end, wintersday JP needs to be done manually...

    @Wolf.2596
    Yeah, some of the JPs required are ridiculous. Especially the Halloween one. I can use both my arms and can't finish it.
    The thing is, they probably do this so everyone would participate in every event they planned, at least a little. So that all that design work doesn't go to waste.
    And the precentage of disadvantaged players is probably small, and it's obvious tha they didn't really think about it sadly...

    However...

    Did you try contacting Anet support? If you talk to them and explain the situation, maybe back it up with some evidence so they know you literally can't finish the puzzle on a timer, maybe they can just complete that achievement for you, so you can focus on other stuff you can do.

    Worth a try i think. I'm sure they can be reasonable if you talk to them directly through support.

    Other than that, i've seen on this forum some people discussing a foot controller when they can't use hand or hands, i don't know if you already have that or not but it's a thing that can maybe help you idk...

    So, since i doubt they'll start designing events and content differently than they do now, it's probably best to talk to them directly and ask if they can help you with that achievement somehow.

    Good luck!

    Well I for example might be able to help through a program like teamviewer if the lag aint to bad.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2020

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You Eu or Na?

    What has that got to do with anything? It's not like you can portal OP to the end, wintersday JP needs to be done manually...

    @Wolf.2596
    Yeah, some of the JPs required are ridiculous. Especially the Halloween one. I can use both my arms and can't finish it.
    The thing is, they probably do this so everyone would participate in every event they planned, at least a little. So that all that design work doesn't go to waste.
    And the precentage of disadvantaged players is probably small, and it's obvious tha they didn't really think about it sadly...

    However...

    Did you try contacting Anet support? If you talk to them and explain the situation, maybe back it up with some evidence so they know you literally can't finish the puzzle on a timer, maybe they can just complete that achievement for you, so you can focus on other stuff you can do.

    Worth a try i think. I'm sure they can be reasonable if you talk to them directly through support.

    Other than that, i've seen on this forum some people discussing a foot controller when they can't use hand or hands, i don't know if you already have that or not but it's a thing that can maybe help you idk...

    So, since i doubt they'll start designing events and content differently than they do now, it's probably best to talk to them directly and ask if they can help you with that achievement somehow.

    Good luck!

    Well I for example might be able to help through a program like teamviewer if the lag aint to bad.

    Ooh, teamviewer lags like crazy and doesn't transfer image well...
    But that's an option yeah. Doesn't matter what server they are on, the lag will largely be dependant on teamviewer anyway.

    Still... Is this something Anet would be ok with? Would be bad if any of you get banned for this.
    Good idea though! Haven't thought of that. Just maybe make sure it doesn't backfire first...
    Would be a shame if you get banned for doing a nice thing.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think you might be able to do it if you can use a mouse with your good hand and either have one with two extra buttons or can use software to re-bind the normal buttons. Bind jump to one mouse button and either auto-run or forward to another one, then turn on action camera (which can be done in advance) and do the puzzle that way. Move the mouse to angle the camera and your character will run/jump in whichever direction you're pointing it, you just need to time the jumps correctly. It will still take practice but I think it could work.

    The only other options I can think of are buying a gaming keypad, pedal controls or something else which gives you more options but those are more expensive.

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • This might be a bit more than you need for your PC setup but there are posts on the forums from users who have setup working foot pedal system as an alternate input device. Perhaps introducing your feet to the equation will help!

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do you have a friend/family member that can come over and do the JP for you on your computer, under your watchful eye, when you are logged in, where they don't get your login information?

    If not, I use a foot pedal to jump because my left hand is pretty bad. I can still touch-type but avoid using the thumb.

    I have the jump key programmed to my footboard.

    Re timing. The quaggan path gets you to the fire ahead of the presents, with no disappearing snowflake difficulty. However, you can still freeze to 0 health if you're not fast enough on the jumping.

    For the presents bit, jump up the middle. These presents disappear the slowest and so have the most leeway for time. After this part, I tend to do the pipe slower than other people, using the half peppermints on each side between snowballs.

    For the stick candies that are long and narrow, I jump sideways onto them. So, instead of jumping to 90 degrees, I jump to more like 120 degrees. This means that jumping too long has a bigger tolerance, because you will simply land a bit further along the candy stick.

    Finally, work on the JP over and over again in the same session. The reason for this is to build up a rhythm for the bits you do, finishing with a rhythm to the peppermint with the fire. I know that it is hard to continue at something that is frustrating. However, if you can work past the frustration and you're not in physical pain, keeping at the JP in one session means that you are likely to have more success. Taking a break, which can relieve frustration, means coming back to an uncompleted JP and pretty much having to build up the rhythm again.

    Treat the JP as a series of "pieces". Identify the first point to which you want to get to. Once you get to that point, aim to get to another point further along the way. This way, you're treating the JP as a series of problems to solve, rather than seeing it as an enormous single problem - which can be overwhelming. Get excited and positive with yourself when you reach one of your milestones! Hey, you got there! You deserve to give yourself a pat on the back when you hit the milestone. Even if it takes you a couple more tries to get to that milestone consistently, that is an achievement in itself. Be kind to yourself when doing it.

    Finally, it is disheartening to get to the peppermint fire, only to fail to make the presents jump. I have been there often as well. (I have cursed the Anet gods more than once for not putting a check point at that fire.) However, when you get to the presents, you have done well over half of the puzzle, and you have done the MOST difficult bit.

    Finally, I'm cool with putting achievement points behind activities like JPs. I accept I will never get the clocktower JP done. However, putting unlocks behind JPs is not cool, because it penalises those of us with higher ping/disabilities. As a for-example, the snowglobe in this collection https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winter's_Presence

  • Yes, the snowglobe is exactly what I can never seem to get. I'd be happy just getting through it once so I can finish winter's presence. I don't know anyone else RL who plays the game that could log in for me. I'm on a NA server. Without mesmer help, it's likely never going to happen. I'm fighting cancer at the present time and purchasing new equipment is out of reach for me. My computer is already 8 years old and I'm lucky it still runs this game to start with.

  • is it to far fetched to have someone (that you trust) log into your account and do the JP for you? or is for some reason that against the terms?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rejected.8719 said:
    is it to far fetched to have someone (that you trust) log into your account and do the JP for you? or is for some reason that against the terms?

    Your not allowed to share accounts.
    Guess its there so if people are kitten and clean you out they dont have to help you.

  • After watching my wife struggle with this puzzle for 3 days i can see your frustration (she didn't want me to do it for her) My Discord info is Priest#9530 if you want.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Rejected.8719 said:
    is it to far fetched to have someone (that you trust) log into your account and do the JP for you? or is for some reason that against the terms?

    Your not allowed to share accounts.
    Guess its there so if people are kitten and clean you out they dont have to help you.

    Yeah I think that rule is mostly there to keep things simple for customer support. It means no one can complain that it wasn't them who verbally abused an entire WvW map, it was their cousin who sometimes plays on their account so obviously they shouldn't be banned for it. Or if kids are sharing an account and one of them complains that the other spent all their gold on stuff for one character Support don't have to try to get to the bottom of whose gold it was or how much they're allowed to spend, they can just say either the account was hacked and they roll back everything or it wasn't and as far as they're concerned there's no problem.

    I can't imagine they'd worry about someone else doing 1 jumping puzzle for you (although it does mean if they do anything you don't like while they're looked in you're on your own), especially if you were there to supervise. It doesn't need to be someone who plays GW2, jumping puzzles don't really require any knowledge of the game mechanics, just good timing. Anyone who can use a mouse and two keyboard keys together with good timing could do it with practice. Easier said than done I know, but even so they don't need to learn the whole game to do the puzzle.

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2020

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    I think you might be able to do it if you can use a mouse with your good hand and either have one with two extra buttons or can use software to re-bind the normal buttons. Bind jump to one mouse button and either auto-run or forward to another one, then turn on action camera (which can be done in advance) and do the puzzle that way. Move the mouse to angle the camera and your character will run/jump in whichever direction you're pointing it, you just need to time the jumps correctly. It will still take practice but I think it could work.

    The only other options I can think of are buying a gaming keypad, pedal controls or something else which gives you more options but those are more expensive.

    This is a really good suggestion.

    I would advise getting a mouse with multiple thumb buttons (if OP doesn't already have one) and binding jump to one of them.
    (The mouse wheel click aka Mouse 3 is also a good option to bind Jump or Dodge to as well)

    Holding down left and right click together does make the character run forwards by default and you still control over the direction the character moves by moving the mouse like you normally would with right click held down.
    With that kind of setup OP should be able to complete any of the game's jumping puzzles with a bit of practice.

    I get it's not applicable for everyone.. (I agree with OP in general about accessibility) but for OP at least, it's an option that would help them quite a bit I think.

    Maybe the best solution is to reduce the number of required achievements for the annual reward instead or add more generic ones to give people more options as to what they want to do.
    Off the top of my head "Build 25-50 Snowmen" is a really obvious one that they could add in.
    Or "Kick 25-50 Skritt" lol

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    Actually.. a Mesmer would be able to help here.
    Teleporting short distances will get @Wolf.2596 closer each time. Don't need to teleport directly to the chest.
    I had a similar situation with a jumping puzzle and the diving in Not So Secret. It took an hour and a half, but we both made it to the end and did the diving at the same time.
    Teleport to Friend might work as well.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately a mesmer can't help because everyone's skills are locked when they enter the puzzle so there's no way to create portals. Teleport to Friend won't work either because it's inside an instance. :(

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭

    I gave up on jumping puzzles years ago. I do not have the depth perception needed, and simply cannot see the jumps. There are just some parts of the game I do not do. But I also do not care in the slightest about 'achievements' in the game...

    Games are made for the majority of people... that is just the way games are.

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Unfortunately a mesmer can't help because everyone's skills are locked when they enter the puzzle so there's no way to create portals. Teleport to Friend won't work either because it's inside an instance. :(

    In that case, I stand corrected. Sorry for my assertion.
    They really thought of everything, and still didn't think further. Accessibility should be added on their "To-Do" list.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Lucio.4190 said:

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Unfortunately a mesmer can't help because everyone's skills are locked when they enter the puzzle so there's no way to create portals. Teleport to Friend won't work either because it's inside an instance. :(

    In that case, I stand corrected. Sorry for my assertion.
    They really thought of everything, and still didn't think further. Accessibility should be added on their "To-Do" list.

    How does accessibility have anything to do with rewards?

    The jumping puzzle is similar accessible to everyone. The rewards are not. The rewards are not unique nor is the jumping puzzle required for dailies given there is always spare dailies and even the yearly has a spare achievement.

    The only thing not accessible are the achievement points, which should come as no surprise since those are rewarded for succeeding at a specific content. That might not be the situation some people might be happy with, but from a design and implementation stand point, this content is as well implemented as possible without making different content absolutely meaningless.

    As far as the Winter's Presence achievement, yes that one requires every activity be mastered. That's how premium or exclusive rewards work. They require a player master the required content. Otherwise they might as well just put them up in the gem store for sale or hand them out freely. The best advice I can give here: try getting used to the action cam, then map character movement (pressing both mouse buttons is the basic forward movement setup) and jump to the mouse. It'll help a lot with completing jumping puzzles with 1 free hand.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lucio.4190 said:

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Unfortunately a mesmer can't help because everyone's skills are locked when they enter the puzzle so there's no way to create portals. Teleport to Friend won't work either because it's inside an instance. :(

    In that case, I stand corrected. Sorry for my assertion.
    They really thought of everything, and still didn't think further. Accessibility should be added on their "To-Do" list.

    How does accessibility have anything to do with rewards?

    The jumping puzzle is similar accessible to everyone. The rewards are not. The rewards are not unique nor is the jumping puzzle required for dailies given there is always spare dailies and even the yearly has a spare achievement.

    The only thing not accessible are the achievement points, which should come as no surprise since those are rewarded for succeeding at a specific content. That might not be the situation some people might be happy with, but from a design and implementation stand point, this content is as well implemented as possible without making different content absolutely meaningless.

    As far as the Winter's Presence achievement, yes that one requires every activity be mastered. That's how premium or exclusive rewards work. They require a player master the required content. Otherwise they might as well just put them up in the gem store for sale or hand them out freely. The best advice I can give here: try getting used to the action cam, then map character movement (pressing both mouse buttons is the basic forward movement setup) and jump to the mouse. It'll help a lot with completing jumping puzzles with 1 free hand.

    When those of us with disabilities write about accessibility, we are talking about accessibility from our perspective. For example, a business may be open from 8am to 4pm and so it is accessible during those hours. But there are only stairs outside, so the business is not accessible for people who cannot use stairs (e.g. those who are in a wheelchair). You have moved away from our definition of the word "accessible", which has the meaning specific to disabilities, and are using the word in a trivial way. This is shifting the goalposts.

    As we have pointed out in this thread, a skin is locked behind the JP. This means that more that just achievement points are locked behind the JP. As you point out in your last paragraph, which stands in contrast to your third paragraph.

    Anet are the arbiters of what content needs to be "mastered" in order to have a reward, in this case a skin, unlocked. Among the other prerequisites for the skin, Festive Imbiber is hardly an activity to be mastered, especially with the "consume all" option for stacks. One could argue the same for the other prerequisites too. Killing the Claw of Jormag three times during Wintersday is a boss fight where it is easy to get credit, and many of the events times for this are quite full because of all the other players doing that boss.

    Finally, there are those of us who have been lucky enough to have another person complete content for us, when it is difficult due to our disabilities. Thus, not everyone who has the shoulders has "mastered" the content. There will be others like me with a partner, or friends, or family, etc, who have done it for us.

    We are not asking for the items to be sold in the gem store or handed out freely. That is insulting to those of us with disabilities who are more than ready to do something else in the game as a substitute for the jumping puzzle requirements. To compare us to people who want hand-outs is beyond the pale.

    Edited to add: often people without our disabilities do not understand the full nature of our problems. Thus, solutions from able-bodied people may not suit our particular situations because you don't know what it is like for us and what we are struggling with. We may have more than one disability and don't want to mention them all. (That last sentence is a general point, and not directed at the OP.)

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree it's not possible to think about all situations and have a general solution that works for everyone, but in some way to make it possible to select in the game options. Such as:

    • I can kill off 50 Ettin without sweat (0-10)
    • I can finish off the jp Not So Secret (0-10)
    • I can complete a Mount Race (0-10)

    Or something like that, with maybe 5 different options. It would make it possible for some challenges to be replaced, if.. in this case, the Jumping Puzzle, doesn't seem to be a proper challenge.
    Not sure if that will be an improvement?

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    When those of us with disabilities write about accessibility, we are talking about accessibility from our perspective. For example, a business may be open from 8am to 4pm and so it is accessible during those hours. But there are only stairs outside, so the business is not accessible for people who cannot use stairs (e.g. those who are in a wheelchair). You have moved away from our definition of the word "accessible", which has the meaning specific to disabilities, and are using the word in a trivial way. This is shifting the goalposts.

    This is a game, not an essential commodity. Games in their nature should have goals that are hard to reach and can require specific abnormal physical characteristics. Yeah it sucks if a disability limits your abilities in the game and it is not fair to those players. But that is the nature of games, they are not meant to be fair and accessible to everyone, a certain physical prowess is required to be able to compete and that is why games are interesting.
    Luckily this game offers a variety of goals you can set to yourself with various difficulty so anyone can find something for themselves.

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    I partly agree. It is a game and it's okay that some parts are extra hard, such as jumping puzzles or some challenge that requires you to be fast with all twelve fingers and toes.
    But I also think that some events could be planned with an alternative challenge, especially if it contains some chain events and you get an extra hard jumping puzzle somewhere at the end of the chain. That alternative could be available for all players.
    Choose the easy way, get the promised treasure.
    Choose the hard way, get the exclusive.

    I'm just trying trying to find a compromise. If a celebration challenge doesn't offer a sporting chance to some players, it'll be like playing a Mesmer in PvP. With the elite skills disabled.
    The doors are shut, the keys are hanging 20 foot above the door... and you are an Asuran.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    When those of us with disabilities write about accessibility, we are talking about accessibility from our perspective. For example, a business may be open from 8am to 4pm and so it is accessible during those hours. But there are only stairs outside, so the business is not accessible for people who cannot use stairs (e.g. those who are in a wheelchair). You have moved away from our definition of the word "accessible", which has the meaning specific to disabilities, and are using the word in a trivial way. This is shifting the goalposts.

    This is a game, not an essential commodity. Games in their nature should have goals that are hard to reach and can require specific abnormal physical characteristics. Yeah it sucks if a disability limits your abilities in the game and it is not fair to those players. But that is the nature of games, they are not meant to be fair and accessible to everyone, a certain physical prowess is required to be able to compete and that is why games are interesting.
    Luckily this game offers a variety of goals you can set to yourself with various difficulty so anyone can find something for themselves.

    If this was something that was in game all the time 365 days a year, I'd be agreeing.

    But this is a holiday festival. There should be an alternate in order to get the achievement for Winter's Presence.

    @Wolf.2596

    Do you have someone you know that could literally sit at your computer after you've logged in that could do the puzzle for you? Like maybe someone who you know is good at platform games in general.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A few points:
    First, this game should never be compared to a first-person shooter. That comparing apples and footballs.

    Second, I am noticing a theme coming through when players post about disability issues. And that theme is to tell the players with disabilities that their goal is "prestigious" and therefore, too bad, the game shouldn't change to accommodate us. I'm not entirely sure which is worse, not being able to get a skin due to a disability or having other players basically tell us to suck it up.

    We're not asking to be given high level pvp titles, or having legendary armour thrown at us. All we are asking is that, for the skins locked behind achievements that require a lot of hand co-ordination, to be given *alternative* methods of obtaining said skins.

    As pointed out earlier, and as suggested by other commenters in this thread, the JP prerequisite can be obtained by having someone else do the JP bit for us. For the unlucky few, this is not possible.

  • Mesis.2951Mesis.2951 Member ✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Wolf.2596 said:
    Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

    This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

    Hi, I just tried do to the JP with using one hand, took me about 10 minutes to complete the first run

    • I went to the slowest path
    • I used arrow keys and ctrl as jump button

    Hope that helps

  • Dreggon.6598Dreggon.6598 Member ✭✭✭

    The original Wintersday release had a neat feature for this jumping puzzle. You'd start off with a gift, and when you reached the midpoint and talked to Tixx, you were given three options:

    1. Keep carrying the gift and try to get it all the way to the end, for a large bonus reward.
    2. Open your gift, for a small bonus reward.
    3. Forfeit your gift, and unlock a checkpoint that you could use if you fell.

    You might be able to convince a developer to reintroduce the feature, with particular attention paid to #3.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    A few points:
    First, this game should never be compared to a first-person shooter. That comparing apples and footballs.

    Second, I am noticing a theme coming through when players post about disability issues. And that theme is to tell the players with disabilities that their goal is "prestigious" and therefore, too bad, the game shouldn't change to accommodate us. I'm not entirely sure which is worse, not being able to get a skin due to a disability or having other players basically tell us to suck it up.

    We're not asking to be given high level pvp titles, or having legendary armour thrown at us. All we are asking is that, for the skins locked behind achievements that require a lot of hand co-ordination, to be given *alternative* methods of obtaining said skins.

    As pointed out earlier, and as suggested by other commenters in this thread, the JP prerequisite can be obtained by having someone else do the JP bit for us. For the unlucky few, this is not possible.

    You're a bit too harsh in your judgment there i think. You said in your previous post that you don't want to be treated differently and that it's insulting to you if someone hadns you stuff, yet when people have an opinion that someone who can't do something should just "too bad, suck it up, do what you can do" you get mad at them?

    This thread is about disability, sure, but i think the "suck it up" comments were aimed generally. For instance, i don't have a disability (unless you count crippling arthritis as a disability), and i can't finish the Halloween jumping puzzle. Many people that have no health issues also can't finish it. Does this mean we should be catered to in any way by Anet? It's a difficult seasonal thing that some players can't do, and others can. Why do people who can't do something hard need to be catered to? Should all content be created so it can be completed by everyone? If so, where's the challange if everyone can do everything? That's kind of boring, don't you think?

    And yes, there's a skin locked behind the wintersday JP, i get that, but in the spirit of not insulting your abilities, why is it then so hard to accept some great suggesitions that have been made in this thread already, that would enable you to get the skin? For instance, binding run to right click, jump to left click and using action camara. I don't know what OP's disability is, but they said they have one usable hand. You only need one to complete the JP. It'll require some getting used to and practice, but it can be done on easy. You don't need to complete it on normal or hard.

    Further, the skin is very expensive, only people who are really dedicated can really get the skin in the firt place, the skin isn't even meant for all non-disabled people. People who have limited time to play also won't get the skin. What argument is there to enable disabled people to get the skin then, especially if it's insulting to do so? You can't say it's insulting to be treated differently but then get mad when someone says that then you can't get some suff if you can't do the work.

    I agree that, especially for GW2 which is "casual friendly" there should be some systems in place to not alienate people with limited abilites or limited time. I agree that there should be some accesibility options in as well, but since this is an MMO, you can't really balance that by having "easier" stuff with accesibility options enabled because then people would abuse the kitten out of that. It probably can be done with some account binding, as in, you select "accesibility mode" and you can't deselect it after that, you're forever locked into those otpions on that account. That would prevent abuse to "skip hard content" while being easier on people with disabilities.

    However, this is all theoretical and doesn't exist. In the meantime, you work with what's available. And what's available is some systems that are extremely friendly when it comes to disabilities. Action camera and rebinding keys and actions for this JP specifically, not to mention, someone could do the JP for OP in real life and stuff like that.
    The options are there, they don't need to be a separate hard coded tab in game that you switch to.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020

    @Mesis.2951 said:

    @Wolf.2596 said:
    Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

    This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

    Hi, I just tried do to the JP with using one hand, took me about 10 minutes to complete the first run

    • I went to the slowest path
    • I used arrow keys and ctrl as jump button

    Hope that helps

    That's interesting, I assumed it would need mouse turning, that's why I focused on ways to put the jump and forward buttons onto the mouse. But that means there's now two options to do the puzzle one-handed without buying new equipment: use the keyboard or using software (which is available for free) to bind jump and forward to mouse buttons, turn on action camera and then do it using just the mouse.

    Either way the Quaggan path is likely to be the easiest because the snowflakes don't vanish and the jumps are generally more forgiving.

    I also like to hide the UI so I don't get distracted by the chat box, changes in the party menu or seeing my health tick down - I know that there's more than enough time to complete it (I've even gone through stopping to take screenshots for a guide and still made it to the end) but seeing my health disappearing can make me panic and try to rush it, and then I fall.

    Edit: Yeah, it can be done with keyboard turning. I bound turn left and right to those arrow keys, forward and back to the up and down arrows and jump to right ctrl and with a bit of practice I was able to complete the puzzle using just my right hand. I was expecting the second half to be harder (where you're running up the path avoiding snow balls) because it's so timing dependant but it was fine, although sometimes I had to hold down two arrow keys to turn as I ran instead of stopping to turn.

    I found it helped a lot to make sure the camera was zoomed all the way out (with the field of view slider set to about 1/2 way) and angled behind and above my character so it was looking down at an angle, that meant the path to the next platform was generally visible. There were a few points where it looked like it was too high or too far for my character to reach, but I jumped anyway and made it (I forgot how many 'tall' jumps the quaggan path has).

    The other tricky part is figuring out where to jump from because you don't always want to be right on the edge of the snowflake, especially on the quaggan path where that can mean bashing your head on the snowflake above. But that's pretty much just a matter of practice and trying to remember for next time.

    And of course remembering that your character has no momentum so you can take a running leap and then jump straight down if you take your finger off the forward button, and you can turn in mid-air if you need to. So you can correct your landing after jumping if you need to. (That first one is especially useful, because it means you can take a running jump that would overshoot the platform but let go of the forward button when you're above it and you'll drop onto it instead.)

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • vonhellsing.2819vonhellsing.2819 Member ✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020

    @Wolf.2596 said:
    Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

    This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

    The JP is one crime to who have some desability i have rheumatoid arthritis, since 20 years old, I play a little and I need to get up and move, i love Play WvW I play a little and stay AFK at WVW, come back and play a little more, because the joint pain is constant, but JP is an impossible thing to do, and many annual events , without JP you do not receive some of the prizes.
    It's been 8 years hating Jumping Puzzles, my Skyscale cost me a sausage for each jp, see how much gold i expend ? Why Arenanet doesn't think about alternatives for those who have some restrictions ?

    I opened a ticket about that and other stuff yet and arenanet said go forum, my fear is all time thats i open forum comment i got ban in forum. i dont understanding this company!

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    I might have been wrong, assuming that the puzzle was impossible with one hand. Awsome solutions and it seems like practise makes perfect. Watching how you guys have described how to make the puzzle with one hand made me think about some gaming keyboards that I've seen. I've found a couple of links:
    https://pgfoundry.org/best-one-handed-gaming-keyboard/
    https://www.amazon.com/AULA-Progammable-Handed-Merchanical-Keyboard/dp/B0728P6DR5

    Does anyone have experience with these kinds of keyboards? Are they useful or do you prefer the ordinary keyboards?

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vonhellsing.2819 said:

    @Wolf.2596 said:
    Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

    This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

    The JP is one crime to who have some desability i have rheumatoid arthritis, since 20 years old, I play a little and I need to get up and move, i love Play WvW I play a little and stay AFK at WVW, come back and play a little more, because the joint pain is constant, but JP is an impossible thing to do, and many annual events , without JP you do not receive some of the prizes.
    It's been 8 years hating Jumping Puzzles, my Skyscale cost me a sausage for each jp, see how much gold i expend ? Why Arenanet doesn't think about alternatives for those who have some restrictions ?

    See how the joint pain is mentioned here in the first sentence? Many of us have pain. Hand/wrist mobility combined with pain. This is why a number of us use footpedals - so we take some (painful) abilities off our hand/s and shift them to our feet.

    Suggesting yet more things that maybe we could afford, maybe we could use (probably not, a second hand input device is not helpful, nor does plugging or unplugging stuff in so we can swap from a keyboard to an alternate device). It's another thing we would have to learn to use, and we already have a disability which makes learning a new device harder.

    Just, for heaven's sake, what is wrong with simply adding an alternative achievement to the skins. That would mean that players with hand disabilities don't then have to fork out money on other devices and trial and error to see if we can use them.

    It also ignores the fact that at least some of us need extra time in order to do a JP. JPs that have a time limit on them, such as the Wintersday, Halloween, and Southsun Cove (skipping stones) ones, make it that much harder. It's not just being able to move and jump. It's also being able to do it with the timing required.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2020

    @Wolf.2596 said: can't be the only person in this situation

    You are not the only one in this situation. I have played since launch and every year I try this puzzle and I fail. I'm pretty ok with most jumping puzzles, but not those on a timer. I would rate this as one of the more difficult JP's in the game

    @Wolf.2596 said: and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    Here I think you are wrong. There is no shame in not being able to do it and there is nothing wrong with you. I can't do it either. But that does not mean I think it should not be in the game and should not be attached to a reward. There are a lot of people who like it and enjoy it and it should also be rewarded for them who can do it.

    I'll compare it to real life. I would really like to be able to run the marathon of New York, but it won't happen. Even if I fix a lot of things like overweight and stuff, I have some disabillities that would not allow it. It does not mean I have respect for those who can. I also do not want to have the medal attached to it, or any rewards that are part of it (like running 5 marathons).

    Yes this means some rewards are not available for you, but you are not alone and there are many other things to go for that do not require finishing this puzzle.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2020

    @Hesione.9412 in particular, on the one hand you make it sound like you're okay with the game not catering to everyone who can't clear content as designed (whether it's due to disability or otherwise), but on the other hand that this particular achievement should include precisely that sort of catering. Can you elaborate on what should qualify an achievement for the latter sort of treatment? For instance, is it the fact that it includes one of the few exclusive in-game-achieveable skins? Is it the fact that it's a holiday achievement? Or simply that it includes a JP?

    For me, anything with a JP in it deserves to offer an alternative completion option. I have no physical disabilities relating to performing any gameplay tasks, and successfully completed the Wintersday JP and most others with what I'd consider a reasonable amount of effort. I still absolutely loathe JPs with a passion. As such, I would welcome an alternative achievement option anytime a JP is in the list of things needed to do. I don't care what the reward is, I just hate JPs that much.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @vonhellsing.2819 said:

    @Wolf.2596 said:
    Can anyone suggest a workaround for the wintersday jumping puzzle? I am a player with limited mobility (only one usable hand) Anet doesn't keep players like myself in mind when they design achievements in the game that require manual dexterity. Usually, I need mesmer help for parts of the game that require jumping, and thankfully lots of people are understanding and willing to lend a hand.

    This is the 4th year in a row I've been trying to make it through the jumping puzzle without luck. Jumping puzzles are already extremely difficult for me, but putting them on a timer makes it impossible. I've had the rest of the winter's presence requirements out of the way for years now, but not being able to complete the jumping puzzle to get the piece of the achievement means I'll likely never get it. I can't be the only person in this situation, and I wish there was some sort of alternative.

    I usually have a lot of fun in-game....but things like these make festivals not so fun for me.

    The JP is one crime to who have some desability i have rheumatoid arthritis, since 20 years old, I play a little and I need to get up and move, i love Play WvW I play a little and stay AFK at WVW, come back and play a little more, because the joint pain is constant, but JP is an impossible thing to do, and many annual events , without JP you do not receive some of the prizes.
    It's been 8 years hating Jumping Puzzles, my Skyscale cost me a sausage for each jp, see how much gold i expend ? Why Arenanet doesn't think about alternatives for those who have some restrictions ?

    See how the joint pain is mentioned here in the first sentence? Many of us have pain. Hand/wrist mobility combined with pain. This is why a number of us use footpedals - so we take some (painful) abilities off our hand/s and shift them to our feet.

    Suggesting yet more things that maybe we could afford, maybe we could use (probably not, a second hand input device is not helpful, nor does plugging or unplugging stuff in so we can swap from a keyboard to an alternate device). It's another thing we would have to learn to use, and we already have a disability which makes learning a new device harder.

    Just, for heaven's sake, what is wrong with simply adding an alternative achievement to the skins. That would mean that players with hand disabilities don't then have to fork out money on other devices and trial and error to see if we can use them.

    It also ignores the fact that at least some of us need extra time in order to do a JP. JPs that have a time limit on them, such as the Wintersday, Halloween, and Southsun Cove (skipping stones) ones, make it that much harder. It's not just being able to move and jump. It's also being able to do it with the timing required.

    You previously said you don't want to be handed stuff because it's insulting. How is giving you an alternative better? That's also Anet handing you stuff because you can't do a JP. It's just thinly veiled under "you did it yourself" premise, but it's a handout nonetheless.

    So which is it? You either accept the handouts and lobby for an alternative or outright giving you the achievement for free/money, or handouts are insulting and you do stuff in game that you're capable of, and leave the rest, just like in real life and just like everyone else that either has or doesn't have a diability and can't do certain things.

    Also, you're making it seem that people with joint pain also have learning disabilities.
    You also completely ignored the suggestions that don't require you or anyone to buy anything, and only focused on "needing to buy new hardware". You don't need to do anything, you don't need to fork out money, you already have a mouse and keyboard. People even finished the JP with one hand and posted this in the thread - just with a keyboard, and there's also mouse only suggestions.

    There's nothing "wrong" in giving alternatives, but then you have to accept that you do have a disability and that giving you an alternative is a handout based on you not being able to complete something - which you said you don't wnat. The only other thing "wrong" with it, is that it's unlikely to be implemented in a live game. If something is implemented, it's either implemeneted for everyone or isn't at all. Which tends to lead to "sequence skipping" by able bodied people cause why would you do a JP if you can instead do something easier.

    For this shoulder skin specifically, there's a certain level of challanges Anet made for players that want to make it which include but are not limited to:

    • doing every activity in wintersday
    • some tied to open world like Jormag
    • a HUGE gold sink which is also a barrier to entry for able bodied people (should people with not much time to play be given alternatives as well?)
    • global time window in which you have to do all the tasks (which is another barrier for everyone that doesn't have a lot of free time)

    So with all that said - you're making it sound like this achievement is very anti disabled people when in reality - the achievement is not for everyone, not even able bodied people. It's an achievement, and not everyone will complete it. I know i won't for starters (not that i want to anyway, that skin si fugly). But that's ok, because if there is no challange in a game - there is no gameplay, no point in doing anything. MMOs especially are designed that way that some content will forever be locked for some players that can't do it. And that includes both disabled and able bodied players. Not everyone needs to do or be able to do everything.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2020

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    @Hesione.9412 in particular, on the one hand you make it sound like you're okay with the game not catering to everyone who can't clear content as designed (whether it's due to disability or otherwise), but on the other hand that this particular achievement should include precisely that sort of catering. Can you elaborate on what should qualify an achievement for the latter sort of treatment? For instance, is it the fact that it includes one of the few exclusive in-game-achieveable skins? Is it the fact that it's a holiday achievement? Or simply that it includes a JP?

    For me, anything with a JP in it deserves to offer an alternative completion option. I have no physical disabilities relating to performing any gameplay tasks, and successfully completed the Wintersday JP and most others with what I'd consider a reasonable amount of effort. I still absolutely loathe JPs with a passion. As such, I would welcome an alternative achievement option anytime a JP is in the list of things needed to do. I don't care what the reward is, I just hate JPs that much.

    This is somewhat off-topic, and I think deserves its own thread as this one relates to the Wintersday JP specifically.

    The problem here is the exclusive in-game-achievement skin. Now, coming to the wording, I don't mean exclusive as in "only the top 1% of players will get this" (definition A). I mean exclusive in that "these achievements, most of which must be completed within the Wintersday festival [the drinking 10,000 drinks doesn't have timing, it only has type], must be completed" (definition B ).

    The game has exclusive (definition A) titles. An example is Fractal God/Fractal Goddess. Another example is God and Goddess of the Arena, or God of WvW. Heck, even Yakslapper (again, WvW). To suggest (as some people, not you, have done in this thread) that getting the Wintersday shoulders is exclusive (definition A ), is almost breathtaking in its audacity.

    To break my argument down. At this point I am restricting my argument to the easiest of the three titles I mentioned earlier: Yakslapper. I don't realistically see that any player is going to get a friend/partner/family member do the very long set of activities required for these titles. Although, if they have a friend/partner/family member who wants to kill 2500 yaks for them, have at it. Assuming a yak spawns every 2 minutes (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Resource_camp), and the same enemy camp can be "camped" over the entire time, that is a minimum of 83 hours that the player's friend has to sit there to kill a yak at once side. If they can kill two yaks then that is about 42 hours. Even only taking into account that camps flip, these times are very optimistic. These titles are very likely obtained by the player themselves doing the activities that contribute to the title. Thus, Yakslapper is an exclusive (definition A) title.

    Now, back to the Wintersday JP, many of us had other people do the JP for us. So we got the skin with effort on our part (repeated failure) but someone else was able to tick off that requirement. Somebody else who is good at JPs can knock three out in quick succession. Worst case scenario: assume the JP takes 30 minutes to complete (the maximum time the JP instance is open: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winter_Wonderland). That player would take 1.5 hours to complete three jumps. Now, compare that time to how long it takes to get Yakslapper - and I have created unrealistically short times in which to obtain Yakslapper.

    Thus, the holiday-related skins are a fashion-wars item that shows either:
    1. the player did the JP three times, or
    2. somebody else did the JP for the player.

    Which then comes back to the point: the skin is not exclusive (definition A) content. It is exclusive only in the sense of definition B. A lucky player can get a friend/partner/family member to do the JP for them. Thus, the skin is not an indicator of ability/mastery for this JP. Thus, locking the skin behind a JP penalises players who can't get others to do the JP for them.

    So, finally, who is penalised by having skins locked behind JPs? Answer: players who can't get someone else to do the JP for them during the time of the festival (definition B ).

    Which then leads to the question: why have a JP as required content for the skin? If there needs to be X number of activities rather than X-1 (achieved through the removal of the JP from the list of requirements) then some other option could be substituted which will more likely be done by the player themselves. An example: build n snowmen, with n as whatever number.

    Edited: wrong definition changed to correct one, paragraph 3.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    @Hesione.9412 in particular, on the one hand you make it sound like you're okay with the game not catering to everyone who can't clear content as designed (whether it's due to disability or otherwise), but on the other hand that this particular achievement should include precisely that sort of catering. Can you elaborate on what should qualify an achievement for the latter sort of treatment? For instance, is it the fact that it includes one of the few exclusive in-game-achieveable skins? Is it the fact that it's a holiday achievement? Or simply that it includes a JP?

    For me, anything with a JP in it deserves to offer an alternative completion option. I have no physical disabilities relating to performing any gameplay tasks, and successfully completed the Wintersday JP and most others with what I'd consider a reasonable amount of effort. I still absolutely loathe JPs with a passion. As such, I would welcome an alternative achievement option anytime a JP is in the list of things needed to do. I don't care what the reward is, I just hate JPs that much.

    This is somewhat off-topic, and I think deserves its own thread as this one relates to the Wintersday JP specifically.

    The problem here is the exclusive in-game-achievement skin. Now, coming to the wording, I don't mean exclusive as in "only the top 1% of players will get this" (definition A). I mean exclusive in that "these achievements, most of which must be completed within the Wintersday festival [the drinking 10,000 drinks doesn't have timing, it only has type], must be completed" (definition B ).

    The game has exclusive (definition A) titles. An example is Fractal God/Fractal Goddess. Another example is God and Goddess of the Arena, or God of WvW. Heck, even Yakslapper (again, WvW). To suggest (as some people, not you, have done in this thread) that getting the Wintersday shoulders is exclusive (definition B ), is almost breathtaking in its audacity.

    To break my argument down. At this point I am restricting my argument to the easiest of the three titles I mentioned earlier: Yakslapper. I don't realistically see that any player is going to get a friend/partner/family member do the very long set of activities required for these titles. Although, if they have a friend/partner/family member who wants to kill 2500 yaks for them, have at it. Assuming a yak spawns every 2 minutes (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Resource_camp), and the same enemy camp can be "camped" over the entire time, that is a minimum of 83 hours that the player's friend has to sit there to kill a yak at once side. If they can kill two yaks then that is about 42 hours. Even only taking into account that camps flip, these times are very optimistic. These titles are very likely obtained by the player themselves doing the activities that contribute to the title. Thus, Yakslapper is an exclusive (definition A) title.

    Now, back to the Wintersday JP, many of us had other people do the JP for us. So we got the skin with effort on our part (repeated failure) but someone else was able to tick off that requirement. Somebody else who is good at JPs can knock three out in quick succession. Worst case scenario: assume the JP takes 30 minutes to complete (the maximum time the JP instance is open: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winter_Wonderland). That player would take 1.5 hours to complete three jumps. Now, compare that time to how long it takes to get Yakslapper - and I have created unrealistically short times in which to obtain Yakslapper.

    Thus, the holiday-related skins are a fashion-wars item that shows either:
    1. the player did the JP three times, or
    2. somebody else did the JP for the player.

    Which then comes back to the point: the skin is not exclusive (definition A) content. It is exclusive only in the sense of definition B. A lucky player can get a friend/partner/family member to do the JP for them. Thus, the skin is not an indicator of ability/mastery for this JP. Thus, locking the skin behind a JP penalises players who can't get others to do the JP for them.

    So, finally, who is penalised by having skins locked behind JPs? Answer: players who can't get someone else to do the JP for them during the time of the festival (definition B ).

    Which then leads to the question: why have a JP as required content for the skin? If there needs to be X number of activities rather than X-1 (achieved through the removal of the JP from the list of requirements) then some other option could be substituted which will more likely be done by the player themselves. An example: build n snowmen, with n as whatever number.

    Thanks for the elaboration. I wholeheartedly agree that the skin in question is definitely a Definition B type of exclusive, which in turn means I agree that there is no value in refusing to offer alternative routes.

    Also, I happen to think this discussion is supremely relevant to the thread. After all, you've been operating under the framework that there are different forms of exclusivity, and one form deserves to remain exclusive while the other can reasonably be argued to deserve alternative completions. Much of the pushback against you and OP in this thread immediately resorts to just mashing both forms of exclusivity together, resulting in the same old slippery slope argument where the person asking for a Definition B exclusive to be made more accessible gets accused of wanting Definition A exclusives watered down. Those two definitions really are quite distinct, but that distinction is usually lost on people until made explicit.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    @Hesione.9412 in particular, on the one hand you make it sound like you're okay with the game not catering to everyone who can't clear content as designed (whether it's due to disability or otherwise), but on the other hand that this particular achievement should include precisely that sort of catering. Can you elaborate on what should qualify an achievement for the latter sort of treatment? For instance, is it the fact that it includes one of the few exclusive in-game-achieveable skins? Is it the fact that it's a holiday achievement? Or simply that it includes a JP?

    For me, anything with a JP in it deserves to offer an alternative completion option. I have no physical disabilities relating to performing any gameplay tasks, and successfully completed the Wintersday JP and most others with what I'd consider a reasonable amount of effort. I still absolutely loathe JPs with a passion. As such, I would welcome an alternative achievement option anytime a JP is in the list of things needed to do. I don't care what the reward is, I just hate JPs that much.

    This is somewhat off-topic, and I think deserves its own thread as this one relates to the Wintersday JP specifically.

    The problem here is the exclusive in-game-achievement skin. Now, coming to the wording, I don't mean exclusive as in "only the top 1% of players will get this" (definition A). I mean exclusive in that "these achievements, most of which must be completed within the Wintersday festival [the drinking 10,000 drinks doesn't have timing, it only has type], must be completed" (definition B ).

    The game has exclusive (definition A) titles. An example is Fractal God/Fractal Goddess. Another example is God and Goddess of the Arena, or God of WvW. Heck, even Yakslapper (again, WvW). To suggest (as some people, not you, have done in this thread) that getting the Wintersday shoulders is exclusive (definition B ), is almost breathtaking in its audacity.

    To break my argument down. At this point I am restricting my argument to the easiest of the three titles I mentioned earlier: Yakslapper. I don't realistically see that any player is going to get a friend/partner/family member do the very long set of activities required for these titles. Although, if they have a friend/partner/family member who wants to kill 2500 yaks for them, have at it. Assuming a yak spawns every 2 minutes (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Resource_camp), and the same enemy camp can be "camped" over the entire time, that is a minimum of 83 hours that the player's friend has to sit there to kill a yak at once side. If they can kill two yaks then that is about 42 hours. Even only taking into account that camps flip, these times are very optimistic. These titles are very likely obtained by the player themselves doing the activities that contribute to the title. Thus, Yakslapper is an exclusive (definition A) title.

    Now, back to the Wintersday JP, many of us had other people do the JP for us. So we got the skin with effort on our part (repeated failure) but someone else was able to tick off that requirement. Somebody else who is good at JPs can knock three out in quick succession. Worst case scenario: assume the JP takes 30 minutes to complete (the maximum time the JP instance is open: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winter_Wonderland). That player would take 1.5 hours to complete three jumps. Now, compare that time to how long it takes to get Yakslapper - and I have created unrealistically short times in which to obtain Yakslapper.

    Thus, the holiday-related skins are a fashion-wars item that shows either:
    1. the player did the JP three times, or
    2. somebody else did the JP for the player.

    Which then comes back to the point: the skin is not exclusive (definition A) content. It is exclusive only in the sense of definition B. A lucky player can get a friend/partner/family member to do the JP for them. Thus, the skin is not an indicator of ability/mastery for this JP. Thus, locking the skin behind a JP penalises players who can't get others to do the JP for them.

    So, finally, who is penalised by having skins locked behind JPs? Answer: players who can't get someone else to do the JP for them during the time of the festival (definition B ).

    Which then leads to the question: why have a JP as required content for the skin? If there needs to be X number of activities rather than X-1 (achieved through the removal of the JP from the list of requirements) then some other option could be substituted which will more likely be done by the player themselves. An example: build n snowmen, with n as whatever number.

    Thanks for the elaboration. I wholeheartedly agree that the skin in question is definitely a Definition B type of exclusive, which in turn means I agree that there is no value in refusing to offer alternative routes.

    Also, I happen to think this discussion is supremely relevant to the thread. After all, you've been operating under the framework that there are different forms of exclusivity, and one form deserves to remain exclusive while the other can reasonably be argued to deserve alternative completions. Much of the pushback against you and OP in this thread immediately resorts to just mashing both forms of exclusivity together, resulting in the same old slippery slope argument where the person asking for a Definition B exclusive to be made more accessible gets accused of wanting Definition A exclusives watered down. Those two definitions really are quite distinct, but that distinction is usually lost on people until made explicit.

    Except in this game, every single item can be turned into definition B of exclusive. So yea, any watering down of exclusives would put others at risk, too.

    However, for this particular one would the following compromise be fine:

    Instead of the item for Winter's Presence being rewarded at Tier 3 along with the AP, what if the item was rewarded at Tier 1, but the AP remained at Tier 3.

    That way those going for Winter's Presence but are disabled just have to get lucky one time instead of 3, but leaves some reward for those who manage to do it 3 times in place.

  • I did this on my 4th try with one hand, using wasd and space. You get more than enough time to turn with the keyboard on the slowest path, I wasnt even at half health once. I dont see any reason why someone with only 1 hand would be unable to complete it. I dont think it needs changing. There are plenty of rewards that not everyone will be able to achieve due to time, skill or disabilities and thats fine. Everyone doesnt need everything.

    If we remove or give alternatives to every single reward that could be considered challenging, then we remove almost all incentive to actually do the challenging content which is terrible for a game.

    I do find it ridiculous that some people here have compared not being able to get a cosmetic in a video game to an accessibility issue. That just completely makes a joke of the real accessibility issues some disabled people face and is pretty insulting imo.

    If this is eventually changed, then I feel the right to complain that there are PVP rewards I cant gain due to my own issues left 'inacessible' to me.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    @Hesione.9412 in particular, on the one hand you make it sound like you're okay with the game not catering to everyone who can't clear content as designed (whether it's due to disability or otherwise), but on the other hand that this particular achievement should include precisely that sort of catering. Can you elaborate on what should qualify an achievement for the latter sort of treatment? For instance, is it the fact that it includes one of the few exclusive in-game-achieveable skins? Is it the fact that it's a holiday achievement? Or simply that it includes a JP?

    For me, anything with a JP in it deserves to offer an alternative completion option. I have no physical disabilities relating to performing any gameplay tasks, and successfully completed the Wintersday JP and most others with what I'd consider a reasonable amount of effort. I still absolutely loathe JPs with a passion. As such, I would welcome an alternative achievement option anytime a JP is in the list of things needed to do. I don't care what the reward is, I just hate JPs that much.

    This is somewhat off-topic, and I think deserves its own thread as this one relates to the Wintersday JP specifically.

    The problem here is the exclusive in-game-achievement skin. Now, coming to the wording, I don't mean exclusive as in "only the top 1% of players will get this" (definition A). I mean exclusive in that "these achievements, most of which must be completed within the Wintersday festival [the drinking 10,000 drinks doesn't have timing, it only has type], must be completed" (definition B ).

    The game has exclusive (definition A) titles. An example is Fractal God/Fractal Goddess. Another example is God and Goddess of the Arena, or God of WvW. Heck, even Yakslapper (again, WvW). To suggest (as some people, not you, have done in this thread) that getting the Wintersday shoulders is exclusive (definition B ), is almost breathtaking in its audacity.

    To break my argument down. At this point I am restricting my argument to the easiest of the three titles I mentioned earlier: Yakslapper. I don't realistically see that any player is going to get a friend/partner/family member do the very long set of activities required for these titles. Although, if they have a friend/partner/family member who wants to kill 2500 yaks for them, have at it. Assuming a yak spawns every 2 minutes (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Resource_camp), and the same enemy camp can be "camped" over the entire time, that is a minimum of 83 hours that the player's friend has to sit there to kill a yak at once side. If they can kill two yaks then that is about 42 hours. Even only taking into account that camps flip, these times are very optimistic. These titles are very likely obtained by the player themselves doing the activities that contribute to the title. Thus, Yakslapper is an exclusive (definition A) title.

    Now, back to the Wintersday JP, many of us had other people do the JP for us. So we got the skin with effort on our part (repeated failure) but someone else was able to tick off that requirement. Somebody else who is good at JPs can knock three out in quick succession. Worst case scenario: assume the JP takes 30 minutes to complete (the maximum time the JP instance is open: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winter_Wonderland). That player would take 1.5 hours to complete three jumps. Now, compare that time to how long it takes to get Yakslapper - and I have created unrealistically short times in which to obtain Yakslapper.

    Thus, the holiday-related skins are a fashion-wars item that shows either:
    1. the player did the JP three times, or
    2. somebody else did the JP for the player.

    Which then comes back to the point: the skin is not exclusive (definition A) content. It is exclusive only in the sense of definition B. A lucky player can get a friend/partner/family member to do the JP for them. Thus, the skin is not an indicator of ability/mastery for this JP. Thus, locking the skin behind a JP penalises players who can't get others to do the JP for them.

    So, finally, who is penalised by having skins locked behind JPs? Answer: players who can't get someone else to do the JP for them during the time of the festival (definition B ).

    Which then leads to the question: why have a JP as required content for the skin? If there needs to be X number of activities rather than X-1 (achieved through the removal of the JP from the list of requirements) then some other option could be substituted which will more likely be done by the player themselves. An example: build n snowmen, with n as whatever number.

    Thanks for the elaboration. I wholeheartedly agree that the skin in question is definitely a Definition B type of exclusive, which in turn means I agree that there is no value in refusing to offer alternative routes.

    Also, I happen to think this discussion is supremely relevant to the thread. After all, you've been operating under the framework that there are different forms of exclusivity, and one form deserves to remain exclusive while the other can reasonably be argued to deserve alternative completions. Much of the pushback against you and OP in this thread immediately resorts to just mashing both forms of exclusivity together, resulting in the same old slippery slope argument where the person asking for a Definition B exclusive to be made more accessible gets accused of wanting Definition A exclusives watered down. Those two definitions really are quite distinct, but that distinction is usually lost on people until made explicit.

    And........... the very next comment after yours is another slipperly slope "argument". Slippery slope seems to be the most common logical fallacy here, followed by (in no particular order) straw man, special pleading (moving the goal posts), and ad hominem. It appears that making the definitions distinct is having no bearing on at least one person.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    There are plenty of rewards that not everyone will be able to achieve due to time, skill or disabilities and thats fine. Everyone doesnt need everything.

    Exactly so.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Just don't do those puzzles