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The Future of Ascalon

TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 3, 2021 in Lore

Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

This action could be the thing that creates a true lasting peace between the two races, and also have some nice symbolism of finally putting the ghosts to rest to truly put the Ascalon War behind them. I was thinking that they could negotiate something where the humans would help end the curse and in exchange the charr would concede all parts of Ascalon to the right of the brand since it already cuts the nation in half pretty nicely. I also think that unless the charr are willing to let the humans have some of ascalon back it will be hard for humanity to ever fully get over the ascalon war. They could also build a new wall on the brand that connects to part of the original wall as well.

I made a simple map showing how this might look and I included regions for all the legions just to give a good idea of how big these territories are.

Comments

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    by gods no, leave as it is, a no mans land filled with ghosts, and preferable, new elder dragon corrupt it.

    by the way i liked very much your map ideas, explore other charrs legions citadels and a big east area devolpment.

    unfortunately a oportunity to it seems lost with halved icebrood saga... a primordus atack would be a good pretexto to explore more these east areas; since entire saga is nearly focused on jormag, this will would be the "primodus half of the saga'.

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    Why should the Charr give part of Ascalon to the humans, when it was Charr territory to begin with?
    The humans stole the lands from the Charr, not the other way around
    The Charr just recovered what is rightfully theirs.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Why should the Charr give part of Ascalon to the humans, when it was Charr territory to begin with?
    The humans stole the lands from the Charr, not the other way around
    The Charr just recovered what is rightfully theirs.

    Every war in history ends in either genocide, occupation, or compromise. The two races dont want to war anymore and the first two would only lead to more warring. As things are right now the charr can never enjoy or fully use the land till humanity helps them out, so it's a good opportunity for them to make a compromise.

    Also keep in mind those were charr lands over a1000 years ago. Humanity lived there for generations so their connection to the land is still extremely significant. The humans who were born in ascalon arent at fault for the actions of their anchient ancestors. It was the only home they ever knew.

    Ascalon was actually originally grawl land but the charr pushed them out even further back.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First off, Blood Keep is NOT Blood Citadel. ANet firmly confirmed that we've only seen three charr citadels (Black/Iron, Flame, and Frost). Blood Citadel is to the east of the Blazeridge.

    Secondly, you put half of the "new kingdom of Ascalon" firmly into the Blazeridge which is hostile Ogre territory. The charr and humans have no say in those two eastern blue boxes. Same with two of the Ash and new Flame boxes - those are firmly Ogre territories, and overcrowded Ogre territory at that.

    Lastly, I feel that the Ebonhawke DRM was ArenaNet firmly closing the lid on all Ascalon-related plots.We get the last Separatists to work with charr (somehow)! We hear Crecia has been wiping out the last of the Renegades (despite their lack of appearance in IBS despite several mentions of them) and Dominion! Humans and charr are holding hands and are friends now, kumbaya!

    Pardon while I vomit rainbows.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Why should the Charr give part of Ascalon to the humans, when it was Charr territory to begin with?
    The humans stole the lands from the Charr, not the other way around
    The Charr just recovered what is rightfully theirs.

    The charr took Ascalon from grawl, dwarves, and Forgotten. Held it for only a couple decades. The humans took Ascalon from charr, and held onto it for a millennia.

    If holding onto it for a decade or two has stronger ties than holding onto it for a millennia because the decade came first, then the land rightfully belongs to the grawl, who held it for an unclear amount of time before the charr.

    It was NOT "charr territory to begin with".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    First off, Blood Keep is NOT Blood Citadel. ANet firmly confirmed that we've only seen three charr citadels (Black/Iron, Flame, and Frost). Blood Citadel is to the east of the Blazeridge.

    Secondly, you put half of the "new kingdom of Ascalon" firmly into the Blazeridge which is hostile Ogre territory. The charr and humans have no say in those two eastern blue boxes. Same with two of the Ash and new Flame boxes - those are firmly Ogre territories, and overcrowded Ogre territory at that.

    Lastly, I feel that the Ebonhawke DRM was ArenaNet firmly closing the lid on all Ascalon-related plots.We get the last Separatists to work with charr (somehow)! We hear Crecia has been wiping out the last of the Renegades (despite their lack of appearance in IBS despite several mentions of them) and Dominion! Humans and charr are holding hands and are friends now, kumbaya!

    Pardon while I vomit rainbows.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Why should the Charr give part of Ascalon to the humans, when it was Charr territory to begin with?
    The humans stole the lands from the Charr, not the other way around
    The Charr just recovered what is rightfully theirs.

    The charr took Ascalon from grawl, dwarves, and Forgotten. Held it for only a couple decades. The humans took Ascalon from charr, and held onto it for a millennia.

    If holding onto it for a decade or two has stronger ties than holding onto it for a millennia because the decade came first, then the land rightfully belongs to the grawl, who held it for an unclear amount of time before the charr.

    It was NOT "charr territory to begin with".

    Oh I didn't realize that wasnt even the blood citadel in grothmar. Updated it now :P

    It put the lid on the charr/human conflict but it didnt touch on the foefire so now its finally open to be explored.

    I know there are ogres there. I figure the ogres would just be along the east and south on the fringe of the human lands since in the event chain we kind of wipe out the south east ogers in field of ruin. Any location we put anyone always ends up having some lesser races in it. Centaur all over kyrta, hylek all over tarnished coast, harpies and grawl all over ascalon, skritt all over, etc. They dont need to all be hostile, or unified, or so big that they cant have villages and smaller territories inside a human territory.

    You know in bitterfrost we meant some friendly grawl, and then there are the grawl refugee's in LA, and all the ones all over fireheart. Maybe the old Flame Citadel and surrounding region will end up a homeland for the grawl.

  • videoboy.4162videoboy.4162 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Lastly, I feel that the Ebonhawke DRM was ArenaNet firmly closing the lid on all Ascalon-related plots.We get the last Separatists to work with charr (somehow)! We hear Crecia has been wiping out the last of the Renegades (despite their lack of appearance in IBS despite several mentions of them) and Dominion! Humans and charr are holding hands and are friends now, kumbaya!

    I'm not sure why, but I thought the Renegades were folded into the Dominion?

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    First off, Blood Keep is NOT Blood Citadel. ANet firmly confirmed that we've only seen three charr citadels (Black/Iron, Flame, and Frost). Blood Citadel is to the east of the Blazeridge.

    Secondly, you put half of the "new kingdom of Ascalon" firmly into the Blazeridge which is hostile Ogre territory. The charr and humans have no say in those two eastern blue boxes. Same with two of the Ash and new Flame boxes - those are firmly Ogre territories, and overcrowded Ogre territory at that.

    Lastly, I feel that the Ebonhawke DRM was ArenaNet firmly closing the lid on all Ascalon-related plots.We get the last Separatists to work with charr (somehow)! We hear Crecia has been wiping out the last of the Renegades (despite their lack of appearance in IBS despite several mentions of them) and Dominion! Humans and charr are holding hands and are friends now, kumbaya!

    Pardon while I vomit rainbows.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Why should the Charr give part of Ascalon to the humans, when it was Charr territory to begin with?
    The humans stole the lands from the Charr, not the other way around
    The Charr just recovered what is rightfully theirs.

    The charr took Ascalon from grawl, dwarves, and Forgotten. Held it for only a couple decades. The humans took Ascalon from charr, and held onto it for a millennia.

    If holding onto it for a decade or two has stronger ties than holding onto it for a millennia because the decade came first, then the land rightfully belongs to the grawl, who held it for an unclear amount of time before the charr.

    It was NOT "charr territory to begin with".

    Oh I didn't realize that wasnt even the blood citadel in grothmar. Updated it now :P

    It put the lid on the charr/human conflict but it didnt touch on the foefire so now its finally open to be explored.

    I know there are ogres there. I figure the ogres would just be along the east and south on the fringe of the human lands since in the event chain we kind of wipe out the south east ogers in field of ruin. Any location we put anyone always ends up having some lesser races in it. Centaur all over kyrta, hylek all over tarnished coast, harpies and grawl all over ascalon, skritt all over, etc. They dont need to all be hostile, or unified, or so big that they cant have villages and smaller territories inside a human territory.

    You know in bitterfrost we meant some friendly grawl, and then there are the grawl refugee's in LA, and all the ones all over fireheart. Maybe the old Flame Citadel and surrounding region will end up a homeland for the grawl.

    Problem is that at least half of the orge and grawl tribes have zero interest in sharing with anyone, including other tribes of their respective species. While a nice idea, it's not logistically possible for Ebonhawke to get much more than part of the Fields of Ruin, and maybe some of what's north of that, if the Charr were somehow feeling really generous.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    Problem is that at least half of the orge and grawl tribes have zero interest in sharing with anyone, including other tribes of their respective species. While a nice idea, it's not logistically possible for Ebonhawke to get much more than part of the Fields of Ruin, and maybe some of what's north of that, if the Charr were somehow feeling really generous.

    Huh? Have a little creativity! Because your reasoning literally describing the mobs in every zone in the game "I guess we can't live here cause there are some hostile people are around!" Humanity better move out of Kryta!(centaur) Norn better move out of southern shiverpeaks!(dredge) Sylvari better move out of the tarnished coast!(hylek) :tongue: Your logic would basically mean none of the playable races should live on tyria and there would be no world conflict.

    Reasonable conflict is the foundation to any interesting fantasy world. A big part of what made the centaur interesting was you really felt like humanity was in the wrong with how things went down. It's also kind of a non point since we know zero about east of ascalon. We know some ogres came from the region and maybe its where the volcanic fractal takes place, but that's it. We don't know how many ogres are in the region and one of the tribes we did meet in ascalon wasn't even hostile. Honestly based on PoF there is more reason to believe most ogres are from south east of ascalon, They also trade and lived peacefully with the humans and charr in the region, but again that's just a non point guess since the dev's have given us nothing on this part of the world on purpose. So trying to say its not logical for Ebonhawke to expand to the east is baseless.

    And this wouldn't even be a matter of being generous it be a matter of mutual benefiting each other.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

  • If not expanding towards the Blazeridge mountains, how about south? The brand has been cured by Aurene (she doesn't go around purifying it anymore, so it's logical to assume the bigger parts of it don't exist) and the gate connecting the desert to ascalong could be opened. So ascalon can at last retunr to trade relations with Amnoon and all the Elonian factions. Speaking of which, I expect Elona still in the need of help to rebuild everything after the big trio ruined everything (Kralk/Balth/Joko).

    But yeah that's all in the realm of speculation and fanboying.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    Problem is that at least half of the orge and grawl tribes have zero interest in sharing with anyone, including other tribes of their respective species. While a nice idea, it's not logistically possible for Ebonhawke to get much more than part of the Fields of Ruin, and maybe some of what's north of that, if the Charr were somehow feeling really generous.

    Huh? Have a little creativity! Because your reasoning literally describing the mobs in every zone in the game "I guess we can't live here cause there are some hostile people are around!" Humanity better move out of Kryta!(centaur) Norn better move out of southern shiverpeaks!(dredge) Sylvari better move out of the tarnished coast!(hylek) :tongue: Your logic would basically mean none of the playable races should live on tyria and there would be no world conflict.

    Reasonable conflict is the foundation to any interesting fantasy world. A big part of what made the centaur interesting was you really felt like humanity was in the wrong with how things went down. It's also kind of a non point since we know zero about east of ascalon. We know some ogres came from the region and maybe its where the volcanic fractal takes place, but that's it. We don't know how many ogres are in the region and one of the tribes we did meet in ascalon wasn't even hostile. Honestly based on PoF there is more reason to believe most ogres are from south east of ascalon, They also trade and lived peacefully with the humans and charr in the region, but again that's just a non point guess since the dev's have given us nothing on this part of the world on purpose. So trying to say its not logical for Ebonhawke to expand to the east is baseless.

    And this wouldn't even be a matter of being generous it be a matter of mutual benefiting each other.

    That's not what I said at all and you kitten well know it.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    The only map I could see them adding to Ascalon at this point would be a map just to the east of the Iron Marches, that partially covers the Blazeridge mountains, and the western part of includes Drascir, as part of some story where we get like Wade Samulsson to come with this and perform the Foefire cleansing ritual at Drascir to clean up the ghosts once and for all.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Lastly, I feel that the Ebonhawke DRM was ArenaNet firmly closing the lid on all Ascalon-related plots.We get the last Separatists to work with charr (somehow)! We hear Crecia has been wiping out the last of the Renegades (despite their lack of appearance in IBS despite several mentions of them) and Dominion! Humans and charr are holding hands and are friends now, kumbaya!

    A. It wasn't "somehow", it was a full scale direct invasion of Ebonhawke by destroyers, and we told them "look, you can keep your head in the sand, and let Ebonhawke fall, or stop being stupid and save the city". Not to mention, with Caudecus's death several years ago the major source of funding for the whole Separatist movement(which was never particularly large to begin with) got cut out from under them, and they would have begun to collapse in the interim. And the many instances of Charr/humans work together, as well as the fact the Charr were there right now doing more to protect their city then they were, would have made such ideals look even less sustainable.
    B. We wouldn't have seen any Renegades since the Renegades were already on the way out back in vanilla, and the ones that joined up with Bangar would have just been labeled Dominion forces, since everyone who defected to Bangar became Dominion.
    C. We never see Dominion solders holding hands with humans and the other Charr. The only Charr in the Ebonhawke DRM are United Legions Charr.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    I offer some sagely wisdom: Lore... is subjective!

    The archivist who gathers together every little scrap and treats it as though it's an objective truth would be a poor historian. It's the equivalent of believing what certain poor curriculums teach of the Roman empire at school. It'd be like reading the 1776 report and believing everything within. There's so much subjectivity—without a truly infallible system of recording data in times immemorial, none of it can be trusted as accurate in any meaningful way. It's all a big maybe, subjective perspectives, burdened with bias, laden with lies. For one to be a good historian, one must be exceptionally talented at cross-referencing, trying to find titbits of truth hidden within veiled fabrications and spurious propaganda.

    WIth the number of people writing a video game? It's Who's Line is it Anyway? It's Improve Night at the local pub. New creative leads have new ideas, new directions to take the world in. What used to be relevant may still, or it may not, it all depends on their whims. None of it, however, is fact. So to cling to bits of lore written almost a decade ago (if not more than, in some cases) is ridiculous.

    We can all be passionate about what we think happened and when, but in truth the only lore that matters is that which we're experiencing right now. That lore is that this silliness is over. There's no more charr/human war, or cold war, or anything. The renegades were folded into the Dominion and they fell. The separatists were forced to see the value of the treaty (thanks Cre!). The charr are under new, better, less warlike leadership. I mean, it's obvious that the majority never cared for that background for either the charr or humanity. It just lead to bad actors causing unnecessary strife.

    Lore is subjective. The past is a guessing game. What matters is what's happening now. And what's happening now is that the war's over and that modern charr and modern humans alike don't really give a kitten about it. They'd rather focus on other issues.

    All that's left is sitting with a big bucket of popcorn and watching as those who hate the charr orr the charr/human peace get owned by ArenaNet's current creative direction. I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough, all of the "Make Ascalon Great Again" rot is so very tired. How many times are you going to hire necromancers to raise that horse from the dead just so you can beat it to death again? The past is past.

    And if you're really set on obsessing over what was? All I can say is... OK Boomer.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    I find it hilarious that you of all people would talk about "everything being subjective" after over a year of demanding that people accept your increasingly bizarre head-canon as gospel truth and then castigating any one who didn't as a bigot and a moron.

    There is a term for this thing you've described where people pop onto a a position at a franchise and play 'Whose Line' as you rather aptly put it: its called Bad Writing . If a writer can come into a franchise other people have worked on and completely ignore the previous work by going in whichever direction they want regardless of things like Cause and Effect and the expectations of the players/readers/audience, to make only "whats happening now" of any importance....then why should any of us bother with any of it? Its just going to be obsolete when the next bad writer comes in, so why waste time and money? Hell, if Lore is so subjective, why even bother discussing it in this SubForum? Nothing we say here will matter, nothing will in the long run remain canon. Should just abandon this Forum all together. That said, its hardly surprising you think this way; denying the relevance of the past on the present and the future, even rejecting causality itself, seems to be a foundational principle of people with ideologies not unlike or identical to your own. Some people do indeed live too much in the past, but at least as many don't live in it enough.

    And yes, please keep bringing up that strawman where there are somehow still tons of people kitten about the Charr and Ascalon and such. News flash: most of us, including GW1 vets, don't really care anymore. We haven't really cared in YEARS.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

    Adelbern was alive at the end of Gw1 as well.
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    As far as we know there were no human survivors of the foefire in Ascalon.. there's no record of refugees fleeing to Ebonhawke as far as I'm aware and by the time Adelbern had decided to trigger the Foefire Ascalon city was complely under seige by overwhelming numbers of Charr.. there was no hope of escape at that point.. they were all doomed.
    If Adelbern or Duke Barradin had any other children in their later years.. be they legitimate or b******s then it's more than likely they died in the Foefire.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

    Adelbern was alive at the end of Gw1 as well.
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    As far as we know there were no human survivors of the foefire in Ascalon.. there's no record of refugees fleeing to Ebonhawke as far as I'm aware and by the time Adelbern had decided to trigger the Foefire Ascalon city was complely under seige by overwhelming numbers of Charr.. there was no hope of escape at that point.. they were all doomed.
    If Adelbern or Duke Barradin had any other children in their later years.. be they legitimate or b******s then it's more than likely they died in the Foefire.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

    That cant be true though. A lot of Ascalonians were caught in the foe fire but the vanguard founded ebonhawke in 1080 AE and the foefire happened in 1090 AE s just by the fact it's not a city of ghosts means some of the people of ascalon avoided the foefire curse.

    And Duke Baradin could have had another kid easily by just making them a kitten. Royals always had bastards they kept secret because of succession politics. There was a lot of drama and controversy about Alderbern being king to begin with in ascalon so it wouldnt be shocking of him having a son was covered up. Or his son could have just been a little kid who left ascalon with the caravan. There is lots of ways they can spin this story.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

    Adelbern was alive at the end of Gw1 as well.
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    As far as we know there were no human survivors of the foefire in Ascalon.. there's no record of refugees fleeing to Ebonhawke as far as I'm aware and by the time Adelbern had decided to trigger the Foefire Ascalon city was complely under seige by overwhelming numbers of Charr.. there was no hope of escape at that point.. they were all doomed.
    If Adelbern or Duke Barradin had any other children in their later years.. be they legitimate or b******s then it's more than likely they died in the Foefire.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

    That cant be true though. A lot of Ascalonians were caught in the foe fire but the vanguard founded ebonhawke in 1080 AE and the foefire happened in 1090 AE s just by the fact it's not a city of ghosts means some of the people of ascalon avoided the foefire curse.

    And Duke Baradin could have had another kid easily by just making them a kitten. Royals always had bastards they kept secret because of succession politics. There was a lot of drama and controversy about Alderbern being king to begin with in ascalon so it wouldnt be shocking of him having a son was covered up. Or his son could have just been a little kid who left ascalon with the caravan. There is lots of ways they can spin this story.

    Ebonhawke survived only because it was beyond the reaches of the Foefire curse, the spell had a limit range, broad as it was. No one within that range survived.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

    Adelbern was alive at the end of Gw1 as well.
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    As far as we know there were no human survivors of the foefire in Ascalon.. there's no record of refugees fleeing to Ebonhawke as far as I'm aware and by the time Adelbern had decided to trigger the Foefire Ascalon city was complely under seige by overwhelming numbers of Charr.. there was no hope of escape at that point.. they were all doomed.
    If Adelbern or Duke Barradin had any other children in their later years.. be they legitimate or b******s then it's more than likely they died in the Foefire.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

    That cant be true though. A lot of Ascalonians were caught in the foe fire but the vanguard founded ebonhawke in 1080 AE and the foefire happened in 1090 AE s just by the fact it's not a city of ghosts means some of the people of ascalon avoided the foefire curse.

    And Duke Baradin could have had another kid easily by just making them a kitten. Royals always had bastards they kept secret because of succession politics. There was a lot of drama and controversy about Alderbern being king to begin with in ascalon so it wouldnt be shocking of him having a son was covered up. Or his son could have just been a little kid who left ascalon with the caravan. There is lots of ways they can spin this story.

    As Greyhawk said, they were beyond the reach of the fires.
    The open lands of Ascalon were mostly blanketed in white fire so pretty much everything there was wiped out, including pretty much every human settlement around Ascalon City and the bulk of the civilian population which would have been within Ascalon city itself as it was the only relatively safe place in the entire region they could live.

    I would guess that the only human settlements/outposts that could have survived the Foefire due to being out of it's range were Ebonhawke, Nolani Academy, Grendich Courthouse and maybe Rin and Drascir although Drascir was lost during the war which we see happen in Gw1 at the end of the Ruins of Surmia mission and Rin had also fallen again prior to the Foefire as well so the only humans that would have been in these locations would have been slaves.. and the bulk of slaves captured by Charr forces to my knowledge were soldiers not civilians.
    It's unclear if Nolani and those other locations were also occupied by the Charr before the foefire as well which would leave the only humans left that could have escaped the foefire basically escaped slaves, refugees or soldiers stationed in or near the shiverpeaks or around the borders of Ascalon where they would have avoided most of the Charr forces as well.

    When Ebonhawke was founded it was basically a run down stronghold that the Ebon Vanguard started to build up and reinforce over the years, nothing like what it is today in Gw2.
    It will have taken many, many years to fortify and build it up into the city it is now, much of that involved mining and expanding the city outwards and into the mountains around it.
    At this point it was pretty much unfit to house civilians and would have been purely a military outpost under constant attacks from the Charr so I highly doubt there were many civilians there if any before the Forefire was unleashed.
    If there were they would likely have been builders and miners, people with essential skills that were needed and not general civilians looking for a better life away from the war.

    What civilians came to reside there later must have come from other surviving Ascalon settlements/outposts that were out of range of the foefire which also had avoided Charr occupation.. or they must have been escaped slaves, fleeing refugees or soldiers that were deep in Ascalon territory when the Foefire was unleashed.
    Ebonhakwe would have been the only location left in Ascalon that was defendable at that point and it would have either been go there or risk fleeing to Kryta over the shiverpeaks which would have been far more dangerous thanks to the Stone Summit as well as the natural hazards.
    There can't have been that many ascalonians left overall though, especially non military personally and the likelihood of one of those survivors being a descendant of King Adelbern or Duke Barradin I would expect to be extremely unlikely.
    But it's not impossible.. just very very unlikely I would say.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

    Adelbern was alive at the end of Gw1 as well.
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    As far as we know there were no human survivors of the foefire in Ascalon.. there's no record of refugees fleeing to Ebonhawke as far as I'm aware and by the time Adelbern had decided to trigger the Foefire Ascalon city was complely under seige by overwhelming numbers of Charr.. there was no hope of escape at that point.. they were all doomed.
    If Adelbern or Duke Barradin had any other children in their later years.. be they legitimate or b******s then it's more than likely they died in the Foefire.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

    That cant be true though. A lot of Ascalonians were caught in the foe fire but the vanguard founded ebonhawke in 1080 AE and the foefire happened in 1090 AE s just by the fact it's not a city of ghosts means some of the people of ascalon avoided the foefire curse.

    And Duke Baradin could have had another kid easily by just making them a kitten. Royals always had bastards they kept secret because of succession politics. There was a lot of drama and controversy about Alderbern being king to begin with in ascalon so it wouldnt be shocking of him having a son was covered up. Or his son could have just been a little kid who left ascalon with the caravan. There is lots of ways they can spin this story.

    As Greyhawk said, they were beyond the reach of the fires.
    The open lands of Ascalon were mostly blanketed in white fire so pretty much everything there was wiped out, including pretty much every human settlement around Ascalon City and the bulk of the civilian population which would have been within Ascalon city itself as it was the only relatively safe place in the entire region they could live.

    I would guess that the only human settlements/outposts that could have survived the Foefire due to being out of it's range were Ebonhawke, Nolani Academy, Grendich Courthouse and maybe Rin and Drascir although Drascir was lost during the war which we see happen in Gw1 at the end of the Ruins of Surmia mission and Rin had also fallen again prior to the Foefire as well so the only humans that would have been in these locations would have been slaves.. and the bulk of slaves captured by Charr forces to my knowledge were soldiers not civilians.
    It's unclear if Nolani and those other locations were also occupied by the Charr before the foefire as well which would leave the only humans left that could have escaped the foefire basically escaped slaves, refugees or soldiers stationed in or near the shiverpeaks or around the borders of Ascalon where they would have avoided most of the Charr forces as well.

    When Ebonhawke was founded it was basically a run down stronghold that the Ebon Vanguard started to build up and reinforce over the years, nothing like what it is today in Gw2.
    It will have taken many, many years to fortify and build it up into the city it is now, much of that involved mining and expanding the city outwards and into the mountains around it.
    At this point it was pretty much unfit to house civilians and would have been purely a military outpost under constant attacks from the Charr so I highly doubt there were many civilians there if any before the Forefire was unleashed.
    If there were they would likely have been builders and miners, people with essential skills that were needed and not general civilians looking for a better life away from the war.

    What civilians came to reside there later must have come from other surviving Ascalon settlements/outposts that were out of range of the foefire which also had avoided Charr occupation.. or they must have been escaped slaves, fleeing refugees or soldiers that were deep in Ascalon territory when the Foefire was unleashed.
    Ebonhakwe would have been the only location left in Ascalon that was defendable at that point and it would have either been go there or risk fleeing to Kryta over the shiverpeaks which would have been far more dangerous thanks to the Stone Summit as well as the natural hazards.
    There can't have been that many ascalonians left overall though, especially non military personally and the likelihood of one of those survivors being a descendant of King Adelbern or Duke Barradin I would expect to be extremely unlikely.
    But it's not impossible.. just very very unlikely I would say.

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Just kind of an idea I had for what might be happening to Ascalon either in the future of GW2 or some other project. With the Charr and Humans starting to work closer together and the Charr wanting to move past the treaty with actions. I was thinking that a future story beat that could be really interesting for living story could be the Foefire. According to the legend " if either Sohothin or Magdaer returned to the haunted remains of Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, the curse of the Foefire would be lifted, and the ghosts would finally be laid to rest." so only the humans would be able to end the curse for the Charr.

    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.
    If they had produced a child it is severely unlikely it would have gone unnoticed back in Gw1 as Rurik was a major character in the early part of the prophecies storyline.
    With the whole Charr invasion going on and the orphan kids and people regularly being captured by Charr.. plus the fact that Rurik's wife was an active soldier for the Ascalon forces as well during the war it would be a very hard sell to write in that they had a kid and then kept it secret.
    Rurik would never have left the kingdom without his kid either when he lead the Ascalonian settlers over the Shiverpeaks where he was killed in action.
    As far as we know too Adelbern never had any b****** children either and if he did they were probably wiped out in the foefire anyway.

    It's almost a certainty that Adelberns line no longer exists at this point which would make the only rightful Heirs of the Ascalonian monarch fall on Duke Barradin's side.
    Duke Barradin's line however as far as we now is also dead.. he only had a daughter Lady Althea who was Prince Rurik's wife whom I mentioned above was captured and sacrificed by the Charr before an heir could be produced.

    Unless there is some unmentioned relative or sibling that was never written in to Gw1 then as far as we know the Ascalonian royal family simply doesn't exist anymore.. and if the curse does specifically require a current King.. or Queen of Ascalon then that's unlikely to happen as well since those lands now belong to the Charr and are recognised as Charr lands even by the only living Human Monarch and as far as we know the only living distant relative of the Ascalonian Royal family.
    I highly doubt the Charr would ever allow a Human to hold the title of King or Queen over their lands, even if it's just a formality necessary for the occasion.. it could end up legitimising and emboldening radical factions like the Separatists who would see it as undeniable proof that Ascalon is Human territory under enemy occupation.

    Queen Jennah being as far as we know the only living descendant of King Doric's line is potentially the only living human who might be able to break the curse.. but she is from the Krytan line not an Ascalonian one and I don't know if she even has a legitimate claim over the lands of both Ascalon and Orr nor if she could in theory break the curse of the Foefire even if she did hold the title of Queen of Ascalon and possessed both the Crown and Magdaer the latter of which last we heard was being repaired by a Norn Smith way back during the campaign against Zhaitan.
    Rytlock was the last one in possession of the Crown as well but it's fate has not been disclosed either as the last time we saw the crown Rytlock jumped into the mists with it.. for all we know it was lost or destroyed there, Rytlock has not mentioned the crown since that event.

    There is also the question of the Krytan Royal locket as well which always displays the true heir to the throne within it.
    This object was teased back in Living world 2 but we never got to see the image inside the locket.
    There's been some debate about the the existence of this item and why it was added to the game.. some people theorise that Queen Jennah isn't actually a legitimate blood heir to the throne and if this is indeed true then it would mean that she is not a descendant of King Doric and that she would never be able to break the curse on Ascalon either.
    That would actually be a very interesting story to unfold should Queen Jennah ever attempt to break the curse on Ascalon.. if she fails to break it, oh boy would that cause a political Sh**show back in Kryta lol
    Her entire claim to the throne would be called into question by both legitimate people wanting the truth and malevolent opportunistic factions vying for power.

    Duke Baradin was still alive at the end of gw1 and he was the rightful king. If he ended up having any more kids before he died then the rightful heir could still exist easily. Dev's leave things unanswered like this not by mistake. Just considering how human nobility works. If Ebonhawke was founded by Gwen. A nobody, a commoner. Then it would make complete sense to have her child marry someone who was noble or better a royal, so it wouldnt even be shocking if in Logan's family line has some descendant of Duke Baradin mixed into it. Don't forget there is 3-4 generations between Logan and Gwen. Military leaders marring into nobility is very common in history.

    Adelbern was alive at the end of Gw1 as well.
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    As far as we know there were no human survivors of the foefire in Ascalon.. there's no record of refugees fleeing to Ebonhawke as far as I'm aware and by the time Adelbern had decided to trigger the Foefire Ascalon city was complely under seige by overwhelming numbers of Charr.. there was no hope of escape at that point.. they were all doomed.
    If Adelbern or Duke Barradin had any other children in their later years.. be they legitimate or b******s then it's more than likely they died in the Foefire.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Wade Samulsson is stated to be directly related to the Kings of Ascalon, and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

    That cant be true though. A lot of Ascalonians were caught in the foe fire but the vanguard founded ebonhawke in 1080 AE and the foefire happened in 1090 AE s just by the fact it's not a city of ghosts means some of the people of ascalon avoided the foefire curse.

    And Duke Baradin could have had another kid easily by just making them a kitten. Royals always had bastards they kept secret because of succession politics. There was a lot of drama and controversy about Alderbern being king to begin with in ascalon so it wouldnt be shocking of him having a son was covered up. Or his son could have just been a little kid who left ascalon with the caravan. There is lots of ways they can spin this story.

    Ebonhawke survived only because it was beyond the reaches of the Foefire curse, the spell had a limit range, broad as it was. No one within that range survived.

    Ah okay. There could still have been royals to escape to kryta or end up in the Vanguard after being taken like Gwen. They could also do something crazy like awakening the bones of Prince Rurik or something :P There is also the idea that King Doric could have had descendants outside of Ascalon like if he had a daughter who was married off to Orr or some other kingdom.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    I know there are ogres there. I figure the ogres would just be along the east and south on the fringe of the human lands since in the event chain we kind of wipe out the south east ogers in field of ruin. Any location we put anyone always ends up having some lesser races in it. Centaur all over kyrta, hylek all over tarnished coast, harpies and grawl all over ascalon, skritt all over, etc. They dont need to all be hostile, or unified, or so big that they cant have villages and smaller territories inside a human territory.

    The entire reason the ogres are in Blazeridge Steppes, Iron Marches, Fields of Ruins, and the Crystal Desert is because of overpopulation in the Blazeridge Mountains proper. They're expanding because they lack the land and food for their population to remain stable upon.

    So it wouldn't make sense for the charr to have a hefty presence there. More so since the Flame Legion survived by hiding within the Blazeridge Mountains after their defeat by Kalla's forces. For the comparison to other lesser races - they're lesser races because they don't have a large presence in Central Tyria, and are more primitive in comparison. But even those "lesser races" have their own homelands that aren't surrounded by the major races - hylek have the Heart of Maguuma, for example, as well as the Zintl Holy Grounds and its many nearby settlements, with zero human settlements in Sparkly Fen (not counting the ruins that have been abandoned for 250+ years). The Blazeridge Mountains is the ogre's version of Heart of Maguuma - there might be some non-ogre presence, like there is Rata Novus and Tarir in the Maguuma, but they're small and possibly abandoned.

    The reason why grawl, quaggan, and skritt aren't unified, btw, is because they've been displaced. Skritt and quaggan in particular. Though the lesser races are also tribal and don't have a centralized form of government outside of their tribes, but this doesn't prevent large tribes from being established (see: Itzle and Nuhoch). The quaggan once did have a centralized government and a unified nation, but this was destroyed by the DSD and krait.

    @videoboy.4162 said:
    I'm not sure why, but I thought the Renegades were folded into the Dominion?

    This was the implication, but we never firmly saw this outright, since all the Dominion are implied fresh turncoats rather than long-standing Renegades.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The problem with this is that the curse specifically states it must be lifted by the current king of Ascalon from King Doric's lineage and as far as we know, King Doric's Ascalonian line has been ended.

    King Adelbern only had one son Prince Rurik and Rurik was killed before he could produce an hair with his wife who was captured and sacrificed by the Charr after the Searing.

    It hasn't. Adelbern's line ended, but not Doric's Ascalonian lineage. The current Duke of Ebonhawke, Wade Samuelsson, is a descendant of Ascalonian kings.

    Also fun fact: Rurik is originally called Adelbern's firstborn son in the Prophecies manual. Implying there was a second that never got talked about.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    A. It wasn't "somehow", it was a full scale direct invasion of Ebonhawke by destroyers, and we told them "look, you can keep your head in the sand, and let Ebonhawke fall, or stop being stupid and save the city". Not to mention, with Caudecus's death several years ago the major source of funding for the whole Separatist movement(which was never particularly large to begin with) got cut out from under them, and they would have begun to collapse in the interim. And the many instances of Charr/humans work together, as well as the fact the Charr were there right now doing more to protect their city then they were, would have made such ideals look even less sustainable.
    B. We wouldn't have seen any Renegades since the Renegades were already on the way out back in vanilla, and the ones that joined up with Bangar would have just been labeled Dominion forces, since everyone who defected to Bangar became Dominion.
    C. We never see Dominion solders holding hands with humans and the other Charr. The only Charr in the Ebonhawke DRM are United Legions Charr.

    A. I feel you, and the current writers, are vastly underselling how hard it is to overcome much bitter hatred and racism. As to Caudecus, the prologue for IBS firmly established the Separatists as still being a solid thread; lack of Caudecus' funding harmed them, but not majorly. And the Separatist movement was large enough to be found in half of Ascalon (we have camps from Fields of Ruins to Fireheart Rise and everywhere inbetween); far more numerous than the Renegades for sure.
    B. Again, IBS firmly established the Renegades were a major force still, as did the Ebonhawke DRM (or rather, they were until Bangar's fall). Despite your insistence, the Renegades were never "on the way out" until now.
    C. Never said Dominion soldiers were, I was referring to the Separatist Sympathisers, the Flame Legion DRM situation, and all the overarching peace and metaphorical hand-holding talks that occur constantly throughout the DRMs. It just takes one small destroyer invasion to end centuries of racism and hatred, apparently - it's amazing that the risen, mordrem, icebrood, and branded couldn't solve the problem but a bit of fire can!

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I offer some sagely wisdom: Lore... is subjective!

    Subjective isn't what you're looking for.

    Being constantly written and rewritten is what you're looking for.

    If lore was subjective, then there'd be no canon. Canon, by definition, isn't subjective but objective. The thing is that, depending on the writers at the time, what is objectively established can be expanded, rewritten, or left alone.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I think you've mixed your time of events though, the end of Gw1 was before the Charr overrun Ascalon resulting in Adelbern triggering the Foefire.
    Both Adelbern and Duke Barradin were killed in this event as the foefire consumed everything in an inferno of white fire.
    Pretty much every living thing in almost the entire region of Ascalon was wiped out leaving Ebonhawke the last existing Human settlement in the region, and it was nothing like it is in Gw2 back then either.. not a city with civilians but more of a military fortress run by the Ebon Vanguard.

    The Foefire occurs 10 years after the events of GW1. Plenty of time for either Barradin or Adelbern to sire a new child and ship them off to Ebonhawke, the perceived "back of the line". Or to Ascalon Settlement in Kryta, if we're being honest - IIRC, there was an establish piece of lore that said they continued getting refugees well after 1072.

    Technically speaking, we didn't even interact all that much with Adelbern or Barradin after 1072. Not enough to be told whether or not they had a new kid. We do get a single mission instance with Barradin in 1078, but that's pretty much it.

    Wade Samuelsson is the only human in Ebonhawke who claims to be a living descendant of the Ascalonian royal family, but this claim is heavily disputed and there is no evidence what so ever that links him directly or distantly to the royal bloodline.
    If his claim is true though then he would in theory be able to end the Foefire curse.. but he has nothing to prove his claim, and the political matters I mentioned before involving the Charr are also applicable with any claim Wade would make to call himself a King of Ascalon.

    There's zero dispute about this except among players. And there's nothing saying that Wade has nothing to prove his claim, except players not being given solid proof. While there is a chance he's wrong or lying, there's no indication presented to give us a legitimate reason to doubt this.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I would guess that the only human settlements/outposts that could have survived the Foefire due to being out of it's range were Ebonhawke, Nolani Academy, Grendich Courthouse and maybe Rin and Drascir although Drascir was lost during the war which we see happen in Gw1 at the end of the Ruins of Surmia mission and Rin had also fallen again prior to the Foefire as well so the only humans that would have been in these locations would have been slaves.. and the bulk of slaves captured by Charr forces to my knowledge were soldiers not civilians.
    It's unclear if Nolani and those other locations were also occupied by the Charr before the foefire as well which would leave the only humans left that could have escaped the foefire basically escaped slaves, refugees or soldiers stationed in or near the shiverpeaks or around the borders of Ascalon where they would have avoided most of the Charr forces as well.

    Nolani is far closer to Ascalon City than Ebonhawke. Grendich might have been far enough away, but there are Foefire ghosts there, so it got caught in the blast. Drascir would have been far enough away, but as established it was conquered - only slaves and prisoners of war would have been there.

    Rin was occurpied during the Foefire, as established in Ghosts of Ascalon and the story of Frye Fireburn - after they witnessed the Foefire firsthand, they returned to the charr outposts at Rin, before construction of the Black Citadel began. If Rin was captured, it's a sure bet Nolani was, too.

    When Ebonhawke was founded it was basically a run down stronghold that the Ebon Vanguard started to build up and reinforce over the years, nothing like what it is today in Gw2.
    It will have taken many, many years to fortify and build it up into the city it is now, much of that involved mining and expanding the city outwards and into the mountains around it.
    At this point it was pretty much unfit to house civilians and would have been purely a military outpost under constant attacks from the Charr so I highly doubt there were many civilians there if any before the Forefire was unleashed.
    If there were they would likely have been builders and miners, people with essential skills that were needed and not general civilians looking for a better life away from the war.

    I would recommend you read The Founding, because there were 100% civilians with the Ebon Vanguard. An entire caravan of civilians.

    Officially, the assignment was to defend against a threat to the south. Unofficially, Adelbern was exiling the popular Ebon Vanguard and their supporters - which included many civilians - so that his own decisions don't get questioned. A notable decline in his sanity.

    "Today, a weaponsmith questioned the king's decision to send the Vanguard back into harm's way so soon. In response, the king decreed that he should join the expedition—to keep the Vanguard properly armed. Before long, a baker, a leather crafter, a tailor and their families had also been ordered to join the caravan. Is this a sign of support from the king or an act to remove opposition from sight? It's a question I dare not voice. Regardless, the Ebon Vanguard prepares to leave home once more, doing so without complaint and with their usual efficiency."
    "The day the Vanguard left Ascalon, the second time, was sad but proud. Civilians lined the street to honor these heroes from the north. At the city gates, dozens of civilians from various trades met the unit to unexpectedly join them on their journey. Additional supplies were packed to accommodate them. So many people willing to leave with the Vanguard and abandon all they'd ever known - was it pride for the unit that spurred them on, or was it fear of their king?"

    You can even go in-game and check the graves. Many of them are from a time that would be when Ebonhawke was established.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Technically speaking, we didn't even interact all that much with Adelbern or Barradin after 1072. Not enough to be told whether or not they had a new kid. We do get a single mission instance with Barradin in 1078, but that's pretty much it.

    I know, although given that there is no record of either men having another legitimate heir I would doubt that they did, unless it was a random kitten child in which case they may not have even known nor cared if they did.
    Given the state of Ascalon at the time I doubt either men had any interest in having more children.. too busy fighting the Charr.

    That said there is so much room for additions in the writing due to how lacking information is about these characters personal lives etc.
    But from what we know now there's nothing to suggest they did have more kids.

    There's zero dispute about this except among players. And there's nothing saying that Wade has nothing to prove his claim, except players not being given solid proof. While there is a chance he's wrong or lying, there's no indication presented to give us a legitimate reason to doubt this.

    Considering the importance of the claim i'd have to side with the players and the wiki tbh.
    He has no ancestral background provided either that would support his claim.. all players have to go on as you said is his own word.
    Ultimately this is a failing on the writing more than anything.

    I would actually like to see a story involving Wade trying to break the curse, with his claim disputed as it is it really could go either way which would be pretty exciting for both sides to finally find out who was right and who was wrong about his claim.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I would guess that the only human settlements/outposts that could have survived the Foefire due to being out of it's range were Ebonhawke, Nolani Academy, Grendich Courthouse and maybe Rin and Drascir although Drascir was lost during the war which we see happen in Gw1 at the end of the Ruins of Surmia mission and Rin had also fallen again prior to the Foefire as well so the only humans that would have been in these locations would have been slaves.. and the bulk of slaves captured by Charr forces to my knowledge were soldiers not civilians.
    It's unclear if Nolani and those other locations were also occupied by the Charr before the foefire as well which would leave the only humans left that could have escaped the foefire basically escaped slaves, refugees or soldiers stationed in or near the shiverpeaks or around the borders of Ascalon where they would have avoided most of the Charr forces as well.

    Nolani is far closer to Ascalon City than Ebonhawke. Grendich might have been far enough away, but there are Foefire ghosts there, so it got caught in the blast. Drascir would have been far enough away, but as established it was conquered - only slaves and prisoners of war would have been there.

    Rin was occurpied during the Foefire, as established in Ghosts of Ascalon and the story of Frye Fireburn - after they witnessed the Foefire firsthand, they returned to the charr outposts at Rin, before construction of the Black Citadel began. If Rin was captured, it's a sure bet Nolani was, too.

    I would assume that was the fate of Nolani as well.
    Good point on Grendich though, I overlooked the ghosts present there in Gw2.. where there's ghosts there was Foefire I guess.

    I would recommend you read The Founding, because there were 100% civilians with the Ebon Vanguard. An entire caravan of civilians.

    Yep, this was a massive oversight on my part, I forgot about that book.
    I was completely wrong here.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A. I feel you, and the current writers, are vastly underselling how hard it is to overcome much bitter hatred and racism. As to Caudecus, the prologue for IBS firmly established the Separatists as still being a solid thread; lack of Caudecus' funding harmed them, but not majorly. And the Separatist movement was large enough to be found in half of Ascalon (we have camps from Fields of Ruins to Fireheart Rise and everywhere inbetween); far more numerous than the Renegades for sure.
    B. Again, IBS firmly established the Renegades were a major force still, as did the Ebonhawke DRM (or rather, they were until Bangar's fall). Despite your insistence, the Renegades were never "on the way out" until now.
    C. Never said Dominion soldiers were, I was referring to the Separatist Sympathisers, the Flame Legion DRM situation, and all the overarching peace and metaphorical hand-holding talks that occur constantly throughout the DRMs. It just takes one small destroyer invasion to end centuries of racism and hatred, apparently - it's amazing that the risen, mordrem, icebrood, and branded couldn't solve the problem but a bit of fire can!

    I feel you oversell the power of many smaller factions in fictional settings, and aren't really good at looking past the immediate to understand the full context behind narrative developments.

    Mentioning that Separatists are still around doesn't make them a solid thread. Just because you haven't killed every single last person believing in some ideology doesn't mean they have the forces to still be a sufficient threat. The game acknowledging that "yeah there are some of these people still around", doesn't mean they are a big issue. It just means that yeah, some of those people would still be around, and the game recognizes that. The Separatists had all of 9 camps in-game, most of which were just three small tents around a camp fire. Even back in vanilla they weren't particularly large, powerful, widespread, or well funded, and we go around and break all that up in vanilla. Then we kill their major source of funding, Caudecus, in LWS3. Further weakening a group that was never particularly well off to begin with. On top of that theres other factors such as

    • The Charr letting humans expand outside of Ebonhawke into the Fields of Ruin.
    • The actual signing of the treaty.
    • Instances of Charr helping humans, such as the Charr Warbands helping in Lake Doric, and humans helping the Charr, such as the Seraph helping the Charr in Drizzlewood
    • The Charr literally being there to help Ebonhawke against the destroyers in its time of need.

    It isn't just "ohh man destroyers are invading all hatred is instantly gone" as you so try to reductio ad absurdum it into. Its a decade of actions slowly eroding it down. And many of those people may still not like the Charr, but are able to recognize the bigger threat when its literally right there threatening them, and the Charr are right there trying to help them defend the city.

    All of the above is true of the Renegades, except with Caudecus replaced with Ajax and Bangar. The Renegades were never a big group to being with, and we stop their plans, kill their leader, and raid their base, back in vanilla. Just because the game mentions that some Renegades are still around by the time of IBS doesn't mean they weren't on their way out, it just means the game was acknowledging the fact that there would still be some people with this ideology around because we didn't totally genocide them.

    As for your last bit where you talk about overarching peace. Again, you ignore the context, and honestly the sheer difference, between what is happening now, compared to past stories.

    • Kralkatorrik, and his Branded, never even tried a large scale assault on the major capitals. In fact, his forces were marching south, out of Ascalon, to try to meet up with their master in the desert, and most conflict with the Branded was started by the Charr.
    • The same thing is true of Mordremoth and his Modrem. He attacked the Pale Tree, and his vines came up in a few places, but there was never a large scale invasion attempt of central Tyria that reached as many as this does.
    • The Deep Sea Dragon hasn't even really made any sort of impact on central Tyria.
    • The one that could arguable come closest in Zhaitan, but he only attacked Claw Island, and some of his shambling minions like Kellach tried to attack the queen.
    • Even for Jormag and Primrodus, before IBS neither of their forces were partiuclarly threatening most races. The Icebrood were mostly in Frostgorge, and the northern edge of Snowden, aka, pretty much the middle of nowhere. And destroyers had popped up in a few places, but were mostly in super remote areas like Mount Maelstrom, or the Ring of Fire.

    The Dragon's minions tended to mostly stay in super remote areas of the world, where no one really was to begin with, rendering any sort of sense of invasion hallow(a long standing joke about GW2's plot being the nonexistence of the supposed Dragon minion invasions) Compare that to Primrodus and Jormag's forces now literally freezing over places like Lake Doric, in an attempt to attack Divinity's Reach, and actively attacking places like Rata Sum, Lions Arch(again), the Ascalonian Settlement, the Snowden Drifts DRM is just on the other side of the mountains from Hoelbrak, etc. The sheer difference in scope, and size, of the current war makes it totally different from anything we have seen previously. Who would have guessed a war of a totally different scale and scope then before would lead to more races unifying to try to stop it when previous conflicts never involved them, thus gave them no reason to do so!

  • videoboy.4162videoboy.4162 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 I should have been more specific. I just meant I thought they had all publicly joined Bangar when he split off, not necessarily when his faction officially became the Dominion alongside the Frost Legion, since

    Bangar had been bankrolling them in secret before that.
  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭✭

    Also consider that leaders are the ones who make choices not the people. The humans were pissed when Jenna agreed to stop fighting the charr but she still did it, and so that meant that nearly all humans fell in line. Malice, Crecia, Efram, and im assuming Mia(because it says she was one of the driving forces for the treaty of ebonhawke on the wiki) don't want any more war. If the human leaders and and Charr leaders say there is no war then there will be no war unless the humans or charr want to have another civil war about it first. Tensions will be high, and racism will still exist, but that doesn't mean the charr and human nations cant find a way to work to help each other to help themselves. Both factions have already helped each other with each others civil wars so i dont see why they wouldnt continue to go along with each other unless something insane happens to drive them apart again.

    This would also open up NEW race conflicts. Right now I would say the Norn and the Charr tensions are at an all time high after ibs. We've never seen the norn go to war and I think the idea of norn vs charr could be really cool and help grow the norn culture a bit more past its semi nomad style. I'd also love seeing the dwarfs return to flesh and having the stone summit move into the southern shiverpeaks and humanity can get into a conflict with them, or even expand on ogres a bit more if they have conflicts with them to the east. Things like that.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Considering the importance of the claim i'd have to side with the players and the wiki tbh.
    He has no ancestral background provided either that would support his claim.. all players have to go on as you said is his own word.
    Ultimately this is a failing on the writing more than anything.

    The thing is, you can say that for a lot of lore, particularly heritage. Especially for player viewpoint - what proof do players have that Jennah is descended from Doric? Only everyone's word for it. Or that Logan is descended from Gwen? Just everyone's word for it.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I feel you oversell the power of many smaller factions in fictional settings, and aren't really good at looking past the immediate to understand the full context behind narrative developments.

    A group who have camps in five out of six zones of a region (or is there a camp in Blazeridge Steppes too?), and is canonically such a thorn in the side that they don't get wiped out by a massive military powerhouse, goes to show that the Separatist is not really a "smaller faction". Finances alone won't cause that.

    I think you're understating the level of threat the Separatists and Renegades actually were.

    @videoboy.4162 said:
    @Konig Des Todes.2086 I should have been more specific. I just meant I thought they had all publicly joined Bangar when he split off, not necessarily when his faction officially became the Dominion alongside the Frost Legion, since

    Bangar had been bankrolling them in secret before that.

    There were some Renegades in his forces at the end of the prologue, bolstered by rally occupants. But it's never firmly established - or implied tbh - that the renegades on a whole joined the Dominion, or whom among them were.

    We really just have those five or so NPCs that were guarding Gorrik being shown (or maybe just implied and I oversell their position) to be Renegade.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Considering the importance of the claim i'd have to side with the players and the wiki tbh.
    He has no ancestral background provided either that would support his claim.. all players have to go on as you said is his own word.
    Ultimately this is a failing on the writing more than anything.

    The thing is, you can say that for a lot of lore, particularly heritage. Especially for player viewpoint - what proof do players have that Jennah is descended from Doric? Only everyone's word for it. Or that Logan is descended from Gwen? Just everyone's word for it.

    Jennah at least has a known heritage, her father being king before her and her line traced through King Baede etc although it's true that you could argue the legitimacy of her line tied to Doric without strong historical evidence to confirm it.
    The fact that she's a Mesmer too could cause for doubt since how can you really know Jennah is who she says she is.. it's not impossible that she's an imposter using a glamor to disguise him/herself as Queen Jennah.. the real one could be dead or missing, pretty sure the ministry spread similar propaganda to her profession in the past as well.
    Doubtful scenario but not impossible.
    Something that Krytan royal locket would be able to answer at least.

    Wade honestly gets nothing.. no family members disclosed nor any tie directly or distantly to any known royals from the Ascalon line.
    For his claim to mean anything this is something the writers will have to go back and flesh out one day although I don't see that happening unless he becomes central to an ongoing storyline.
    Perhaps after End of Dragons we can revisit the whole current events concept but really flesh it out into small mini stories that focus more on world building.
    Having Wade attempt to break the Foefire curse would be a good one to explore imo.

    If TeeracK is also correct about a descendant of Adelbern or Barradin possibly surviving and leaving heirs too then Wade's claim could be even weaker.
    That could also be an interesting story to explore as well a human civil war over the title of King of Ascalon.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jennah at least has a known heritage, her father being king before her and her line traced through King Baede etc although it's true that you could argue the legitimacy of her line tied to Doric without strong historical evidence to confirm it.

    Does she though?

    We don't even know her father's name. She was too young to take power when her father died, and the Ministry ruled for a few years in her stead. She's supposedly the last heir, but Whispers agents suggest there is another. There was a curious time in which Jennah had no spotlight, and she has been constantly been replaced by perfect illusions by Anise ever since (granted, "only" when threats like Kellach or Scarlet are around, but how do we know really, if Lord Faren couldn't tell while standing right next to the illusion for over an hour?).

    We have just her claim that she's her father's daughter. And the claim of those who believe her.

    Wade has the same - his claim, and the claim of a few in Ebonhawke that believe him.

    What makes Wade less believable than Jennah? The number of NPCs that follow the claim?

    If TeeracK is also correct about a descendant of Adelbern or Barradin possibly surviving and leaving heirs too then Wade's claim could be even weaker.

    Not really, since Wade would be that supposed heir's descendant. There was no other heir to the throne besides Adelbern and Barradin ever mentioned in GW1, so by your argument of "without mention, it isn't likely true", then if Wade's claim is true, he'd have to be descended from Adelbern or Barradin.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A group who have camps in five out of six zones of a region (or is there a camp in Blazeridge Steppes too?), and is canonically such a thorn in the side that they don't get wiped out by a massive military powerhouse, goes to show that the Separatist is not really a "smaller faction". Finances alone won't cause that.

    I think you're understating the level of threat the Separatists and Renegades actually were.

    This again ignores the context of the situation.

    We never see any significant effort made by the Charr to stop the Separatists. Not being wiped out when your opponent isn't really trying isn't indicative of power, its indicative of not having power to the point that your enemy sees spending resources on fighting your rather pointless.

    And you can see this by how much more the Charr do put effort into fighting everything else including

    • Branded
    • Ghosts
    • Flame Legion

    The Separatists were literally the bottom of the barrel issue, even back in vanilla.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jennah at least has a known heritage, her father being king before her and her line traced through King Baede etc although it's true that you could argue the legitimacy of her line tied to Doric without strong historical evidence to confirm it.

    Does she though?

    We don't even know her father's name. She was too young to take power when her father died, and the Ministry ruled for a few years in her stead. She's supposedly the last heir, but Whispers agents suggest there is another. There was a curious time in which Jennah had no spotlight, and she has been constantly been replaced by perfect illusions by Anise ever since (granted, "only" when threats like Kellach or Scarlet are around, but how do we know really, if Lord Faren couldn't tell while standing right next to the illusion for over an hour?).

    We have just her claim that she's her father's daughter. And the claim of those who believe her.

    Wade has the same - his claim, and the claim of a few in Ebonhawke that believe him.

    What makes Wade less believable than Jennah? The number of NPCs that follow the claim?

    Just the line, we don't know Jennah's fathers name but I would argue that this is a fault of the writers simply not giving him one.
    I highly doubt there was a time in Krytan history where they had a king and nobody knew his name, that would have been really stupid writing XD
    I'm not saying there isn't room for questions and doubts though only that Jennah's legitimacy has a lot more going for it than Wade's.
    Even if she's lying or is an imposter she's at least claiming to be a descendant of the last monarch.

    If TeeracK is also correct about a descendant of Adelbern or Barradin possibly surviving and leaving heirs too then Wade's claim could be even weaker.

    Not really, since Wade would be that supposed heir's descendant. There was no other heir to the throne besides Adelbern and Barradin ever mentioned in GW1, so by your argument of "without mention, it isn't likely true", then if Wade's claim is true, he'd have to be descended from Adelbern or Barradin.

    What makes Wade less believable is that he cannot be connected in any way to a legitimate royal line, only King Doric of which he claims he's a descendant of.
    If he were from Barradin or Adelbern's line and claimed to be a descendant of either man then that would be something more specific than just his word that he's of Doric's blood.
    Claiming you're a descendant of a King or Royal who died around 200 years ago is a lot more believable than claiming you're a descendant of one who died well over a thousand years ago and had known descendants you could better be linked to.
    And if these kings were as promiscuous in their time as some think they may have been then the list of candidates for the throne could in theory be huge.. who knows how many random civilians carry Doric's blood in that case, which would only make Wade's claim as the true heir even weaker.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Has Samuelsson ever made an actual claim of being the "True Heir" or has he only claimed to be of the Doric bloodline?

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    This again ignores the context of the situation.

    We never see any significant effort made by the Charr to stop the Separatists. Not being wiped out when your opponent isn't really trying isn't indicative of power, its indicative of not having power to the point that your enemy sees spending resources on fighting your rather pointless.

    And you can see this by how much more the Charr do put effort into fighting everything else including

    • Branded
    • Ghosts
    • Flame Legion

    The Separatists were literally the bottom of the barrel issue, even back in vanilla.

    There are events to take out each of the camps, though we can't tell how effective such are because of the whole persistently repeating and both fail + success nature of event chains. So the charr were trying. Sure they didn't put the full might of the legions behind the assaults, but as you say, they are also busy with a bunch of other things.

    I would disagree that they were "bottom of the barrel issue". Skritt, harpies, and ogres were of less focus and quantity of events than Separatists. The Separatists even got a sideplot in one of the charr PS chapters. They weren't "the biggest threat out there", but they weren't "the smallest threat out there" either. They were middle-ground, and middle-ground threat to a massive militaristic nation is nothing to sneeze at.

    The fact that they managed to survive 9 years, to the point where the big threats were all or mostly removed yet they weren't, shows to the size of their force and intensity of their tenacity.

    But we've been down this route before, made our arguments, and couldn't convince the other. So continuing on past this is a bit fruitless.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Just the line, we don't know Jennah's fathers name but I would argue that this is a fault of the writers simply not giving him one.
    I highly doubt there was a time in Krytan history where they had a king and nobody knew his name, that would have been really stupid writing XD

    That's what I'm getting at. Just because there's no additional dialogue on it, doesn't mean it is dubious in-universe, especially when there's no in-game implication of any dubiousness.

    ArenaNet tends to write their lore literally one short paragraph at a time, which means we don't get detailed anthologies of a character's history. We, as players, only know Jennah is her father's daughter because a handful of NPCs tell us so; we, as players, only know Salma was a biological child of King Jadon because one NPC told us so. We, as players, only know that Wade is descended from Ascalonian royalty because a couple NPCs told us so (Wade and ).

    What makes Wade less believable is that he cannot be connected in any way to a legitimate royal line, only King Doric of which he claims he's a descendant of.
    If he were from Barradin or Adelbern's line and claimed to be a descendant of either man then that would be something more specific than just his word that he's of Doric's blood.
    Claiming you're a descendant of a King or Royal who died around 200 years ago is a lot more believable than claiming you're a descendant of one who died well over a thousand years ago and had known descendants you could better be linked to.

    There's also the fact that he's a Duke, a title historically given to people with close bloodlines to royalty without being in the immediately line of succession (though some nations would give such individuals titles like "Archduke" or "Grand Duke" but Ascalon has no show of these titles).

    I also want to correct a misconception you have: Wade doesn't mention Doric. He says, to quote,

    Wade: My name's Commander Samuelsson, and I am the Duke of Ebonhawke.
    PC: By what authority do you hold this city?
    Wade: My forefathers were the kings of Ascalon, and I'll be damned if I let those renegades destroy their last legacy!

    So here's the thing:
    1) He states his lineage in answer to the question "what authority does he have", basically saying "I am a duke because I am of royal lineage", which goes a bit further than simply claiming descendancy from a king who died 1326 years ago.
    2) He says king_s_ of Ascalon, meaning that his bloodline isn't an offshoot of Doric himself, but a royal descendant of Doric. Now, unlike Kryta, we have literally zero names of Ascalonian kings other than Adelbern (and, arguably, Doric), so ANet could slap in literally any name they wanted and... it wouldn't really tell us anything. But presumably, if Wade isn't descended from Barradin or Adelbern directly, then he's likely descended from Barradin's cousin or something, who would have been in line for the throne after Barradin had Adelbern didn't get crowned by popular demand.

    And if these kings were as promiscuous in their time as some think they may have been then the list of candidates for the throne could in theory be huge.. who knows how many random civilians carry Doric's blood in that case, which would only make Wade's claim as the true heir even weaker.

    Even if Ascalonian kings were as promiscuous as individuals like Charlamange , the fact he holds a high ranking noble title (literally the highest shown title besides current ruling family) goes a long way to show his legitimacy. Your huge "list of candidates for the throne" don't typically have noble titles when they're descended from kitten children.

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  • @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I offer some sagely wisdom: Lore... is subjective!

    The archivist who gathers together every little scrap and treats it as though it's an objective truth would be a poor historian. It's the equivalent of believing what certain poor curriculums teach of the Roman empire at school. It'd be like reading the 1776 report and believing everything within. There's so much subjectivity—without a truly infallible system of recording data in times immemorial, none of it can be trusted as accurate in any meaningful way. It's all a big maybe, subjective perspectives, burdened with bias, laden with lies. For one to be a good historian, one must be exceptionally talented at cross-referencing, trying to find titbits of truth hidden within veiled fabrications and spurious propaganda.

    WIth the number of people writing a video game? It's Who's Line is it Anyway? It's Improve Night at the local pub. New creative leads have new ideas, new directions to take the world in. What used to be relevant may still, or it may not, it all depends on their whims. None of it, however, is fact. So to cling to bits of lore written almost a decade ago (if not more than, in some cases) is ridiculous.

    We can all be passionate about what we think happened and when, but in truth the only lore that matters is that which we're experiencing right now. That lore is that this silliness is over. There's no more charr/human war, or cold war, or anything. The renegades were folded into the Dominion and they fell. The separatists were forced to see the value of the treaty (thanks Cre!). The charr are under new, better, less warlike leadership. I mean, it's obvious that the majority never cared for that background for either the charr or humanity. It just lead to bad actors causing unnecessary strife.

    Lore is subjective. The past is a guessing game. What matters is what's happening now. And what's happening now is that the war's over and that modern charr and modern humans alike don't really give a kitten about it. They'd rather focus on other issues.

    All that's left is sitting with a big bucket of popcorn and watching as those who hate the charr orr the charr/human peace get owned by ArenaNet's current creative direction. I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough, all of the "Make Ascalon Great Again" rot is so very tired. How many times are you going to hire necromancers to raise that horse from the dead just so you can beat it to death again? The past is past.

    And if you're really set on obsessing over what was? All I can say is... OK Boomer.

    What. You straight up argued author Word of God in another thread and now the lore is somehow subjective?

    No. No it’s not. The lore doesn’t bend to your perspective despite how many silly verbose fanfictions you post.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There's also the fact that he's a Duke, a title historically given to people with close bloodlines to royalty without being in the immediately line of succession (though some nations would give such individuals titles like "Archduke" or "Grand Duke" but Ascalon has no show of these titles).

    This also calls into question "Who" give him this title?
    Ebonhawke has no king no royals to bestow titles like that and Wade seems to be acting as the leader of whatever government system they have there.
    His title of Duke could be something he give to himself after being elected or given a leadership position and therefore be completely meaningless as evidence to support a royal lineage.
    (Not sure how their system works, doesn't appear to be any lore on this, least none I can find.. but I strongly suspect the leaders of Ebonhawke are elected by the people much like they were in Ascalon)

    Leaders before him if elected may have held the title of Duke as well despite having no royal lineage.. it could simply be a formality and Wade is just claiming a royal lineage to legitimise it more.

    I also want to correct a misconception you have: Wade doesn't mention Doric. He says, to quote,

    Wade: My name's Commander Samuelsson, and I am the Duke of Ebonhawke.
    PC: By what authority do you hold this city?
    Wade: My forefathers were the kings of Ascalon, and I'll be damned if I let those renegades destroy their last legacy!

    That only makes this more controversial really.. if he were just claiming Dorics lineage that would be one thing but saying his foefathers were the kings of Ascalon is far more bold a statement.
    There's no way Adelbern is one of his ancestors since Adelbern was the last Monarch of Ascalon.
    Specially since Gw1 exists and Rurik as we know was killed with no Heir.. nor any known siblings which is also backed up by the fact that the Ghost of King Adelbern is still waiting for the return of Prince Rurik in Gw2, which strongly suggests that he never learned that his only son was killed in Gw1 nor did he ever sire another heir.
    It is stated as well least in Adelberns biography on his Wiki page that Rurik was his only child.

    This would have to make him descendant from Barradins side which is even less fleshed out than Adelberns and it would make more sense since they had the stronger claim and Adelbern was elected over Barradin by the people.
    Barradin also held the title of Duke as well and was the first in line for the throne after his brother's death.
    But again we have to ask "How" could he be from that line? since the only known child of Barradin is Lady Althea and she was as we know killed back in Gw1 before she could officially wed Prince Rurik and sire a legitimate heir.
    Barradin's brother the former king before Adelbern must have been childless when he died for Barradin to be first in line for the throne.

    So for Wade to be directly linked to this line, for his foefathers to have been kings of Ascalon he must be a direct descendant of Barradin.
    But as far as we know Lady Althea was Barradin's only child.. or at the very least nobody ever mentioned a sibling.
    As for siring another child later in life.. it is possible.

    Barradin was 20 when Lady Althea was born and 47 when she died.. there was room for him to sire another child in the last 18 years he was alive.
    Although if his wife was alive and of similar age then she would have been less likely to produce another hair with the whole biological clock possibly coming into play.
    Unfortunately we know very little of Barradin's wife.. actually we know absolutely nothing lol.
    Don't even know if she survived the searing or if he remarried with a younger wife so we can do nothing but speculate here.
    I expect his wife would have been of similar age though considering Althea was born when Barradin was 20 so his wife can't have been more than a couple of years younger at most.. or things would get weird there.
    It's also possible he married older too which would make the biological clock factor even more relevant.
    Althea's mother dying before or during the Searing and Barradin remarrying a younger bride before Althea's death would be far more likely here for Barradin to have a new legitimate heir.

    But I would still say that it's highly unlikely that a legitimate child of Barradin would have left for Ebonhawke with the refugees.
    Specially if this child was born after Althea's death as they would have been no older than 8 years old thus they would very likely have been killed in the Foefire had they lived that long.
    And if Barradin did remarry and have a child with a younger bride and that child was old enough to be a soldier and fight etc then they would have been a person of interest during that time period.
    If someone like that had left with the Ebonhawke refugees I expect someone would have recorded that as it would have been significant to history much like Rurik leaving Ascalon was as well.

    Honestly the only way I can see for Wade to be a blood relative of the royal lines that makes sense to me based on what little information we have now would be that he is a b****** descendant of either Barradin or his brother..

    Much as you said though..

    Even if Ascalonian kings were as promiscuous as individuals like Charlamange , the fact he holds a high ranking noble title (literally the highest shown title besides current ruling family) goes a long way to show his legitimacy. Your huge "list of candidates for the throne" don't typically have noble titles when they're descended from kitten children.

    So that's another factor to consider as well.. if his title is a formality then it is meaningless and not evidence to support his linage.
    If he is of noble birth then the title matters and there are some seriously unanswered questions about the ascalon royal line.

    I do admit though there is a lot of room for Anet to just write in some random relative that never existed until now and have Wade be connected to them lol.
    I expect that's what they will do if they ever go back and actually flesh out this part of the lore.
    But from what info we have now there is so much there for players to dispute Wade's legitimacy as a blood descendant of the Ascalonian Kings and the most logical way he could be related, least as far as I can see would be through a b****** line which would not make him a noble.. or even a legitimate hair officially.

    But that can be overturned by people who would recognise his claim regardless of him being of a b****** line and that would honestly be the way I would write this in if it were my job to flesh out this lore.
    Would be much better than something like oh Barradin had a younger sister and yeah she had a kid and so that's how Wade is related, problem solved.
    Least in my opinion anyway lol

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @assasin oates.3018 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I offer some sagely wisdom: Lore... is subjective!

    The archivist who gathers together every little scrap and treats it as though it's an objective truth would be a poor historian. It's the equivalent of believing what certain poor curriculums teach of the Roman empire at school. It'd be like reading the 1776 report and believing everything within. There's so much subjectivity—without a truly infallible system of recording data in times immemorial, none of it can be trusted as accurate in any meaningful way. It's all a big maybe, subjective perspectives, burdened with bias, laden with lies. For one to be a good historian, one must be exceptionally talented at cross-referencing, trying to find titbits of truth hidden within veiled fabrications and spurious propaganda.

    WIth the number of people writing a video game? It's Who's Line is it Anyway? It's Improve Night at the local pub. New creative leads have new ideas, new directions to take the world in. What used to be relevant may still, or it may not, it all depends on their whims. None of it, however, is fact. So to cling to bits of lore written almost a decade ago (if not more than, in some cases) is ridiculous.

    We can all be passionate about what we think happened and when, but in truth the only lore that matters is that which we're experiencing right now. That lore is that this silliness is over. There's no more charr/human war, or cold war, or anything. The renegades were folded into the Dominion and they fell. The separatists were forced to see the value of the treaty (thanks Cre!). The charr are under new, better, less warlike leadership. I mean, it's obvious that the majority never cared for that background for either the charr or humanity. It just lead to bad actors causing unnecessary strife.

    Lore is subjective. The past is a guessing game. What matters is what's happening now. And what's happening now is that the war's over and that modern charr and modern humans alike don't really give a kitten about it. They'd rather focus on other issues.

    All that's left is sitting with a big bucket of popcorn and watching as those who hate the charr orr the charr/human peace get owned by ArenaNet's current creative direction. I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough, all of the "Make Ascalon Great Again" rot is so very tired. How many times are you going to hire necromancers to raise that horse from the dead just so you can beat it to death again? The past is past.

    And if you're really set on obsessing over what was? All I can say is... OK Boomer.

    What. You straight up argued author Word of God in another thread and now the lore is somehow subjective?

    No. No it’s not. The lore doesn’t bend to your perspective despite how many silly verbose fanfictions you post.

    You. I like you. You're good people.

    Hate Is Fuel.