World design team is awesome, class design is poor

I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

However, ArenaNet needs to re-think about how they are managing their class developers. Changes are made with big swings, overly zealous or lackluster changes. Bugs running rampant for months (if not years). Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance. You can keep theme, fun, and direction with balance, it's a game of mechanics and numbers when it comes down to it.

So far we have seen the same complaints since the launch of the game, and Arenanet has done nothing to try and change it up. We have mostly the same developers making the same mistakes over and over. Class balance being poor keeps a lot of people out of pvp, and even away from the game. The more people you have not playing the game, the less money you will make in the long run.

It's time for a change. I certainly like this game a lot but everytime i've took a break (which means im not buying gems to support the game) its because of class balance, and the poor state of pvp/pve.

You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

It's not just about balance, either. It's about overall class evolution. It's been 3 years since we got any kind of serious systemic reworks, and numerous things are overlooked in every balance patch, which is why only getting them once every 3 months is unacceptable (balance is iterative - and iterating slowly serves no purpose but frustrating people). This is why just about every other game ever releases balance patches every couple of weeks). Numerous skills have been bugged or obviously tuned poorly for years on end (see Ele Staff - anything but Fire). Balance changes we do get are often ham-fisted and have an unintended result that is then never addressed or discussed again.

Thieves complained about P/P and how off-kilter it felt for years before they finally did a rework with the most basic and obviously needed balancing adjustment of buffing the autoattack so it could deal reasonable sustained DPS so you didn't have to always dump all your Initiative into Unload for mediocre burst. P/P finally works about how it should, and it only took about 4 years to get it there.

The Revenant was released with half the number of skills that other classes have and was designed into its first elite spec to the point that it feels very incomplete without it; no other class feels this way because they were complete classes before the introduction of elite specs. Instead of addressing this mistake in PoF, they doubled down on it with the design of the Renegade. It's no surprise that the Revenant is the least popular class in the game and the Renegade was the most poorly received new elite spec. The whole class needs a redesign that puts them in better parity with how other classes operate in terms of skill choice and build customization (they should have 10-16 legend-agnostic skills and have a no-legend mode that lets them customize their skill bar with those skills.)

It kind of goes beyond ridiculous, and I can't help but assume it's because they've had the same small team in there for years that operates as an echo chamber with limited input of fresh ideas. They really need some kind of shakeup, whether it's bringing new people into the team or restructuring how the team operates and is managed.

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

Your response is one of a shill.

There are plenty of examples of what is broken, and they are aware of what is broken. This thread is about rethinking how they manager their dev team.

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

It hasn't occured to you this might be their intention? Especially considering their approach to lacking trinity?

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

However, ArenaNet needs to re-think about how they are managing their class developers. Changes are made with big swings, overly zealous or lackluster changes. Bugs running rampant for months (if not years). Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance. You can keep theme, fun, and direction with balance, it's a game of mechanics and numbers when it comes down to it.

So far we have seen the same complaints since the launch of the game, and Arenanet has done nothing to try and change it up. We have mostly the same developers making the same mistakes over and over. Class balance being poor keeps a lot of people out of pvp, and even away from the game. The more people you have not playing the game, the less money you will make in the long run.

It's time for a change. I certainly like this game a lot but everytime i've took a break (which means im not buying gems to support the game) its because of class balance, and the poor state of pvp/pve.

I agree with you.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

Well, I actually like the fact that they design around theme. It's one of the reasons I prefer pretty much all of GW2's classes to pretty much any class I've ever played in a class-based MMO before. However, that doesn't excuse the extremely poor balance and design iteration we've been dealing with for years now.

@Kahrgan.7401 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

You really think you know how to manage a Dev team? Have you ever worked for a Dev team? Do you even do game design? And you want to complain about how arenanet should do their job? XD. When you work for an understaffed game Dev company compared to wow, and FFXIV and eso. And still make top 3 of 2017 MMOs, then you can give advice. But the game is fine. I hear so much B's from people about flaws in the game. Yet don't ever discover anything people say. Done map completion. PvP. Wvw. Finished each expansion and living world seasons multiple times. And don't find anything that's detrimental as people think in their minds. Classes are fine. Maps are fine.

It's no different from other MMOs. All MMOs have bugs. Depends how many people send in the report. And them needing to know how much of a priority it is. After all the B's people keep saying. It won't make me stop loving the game. Combat still more fluid than any MMO. Pve is still best. Classes are great. Are the bugs so detrimental that it makes you stop playing? No. Will it stop you from playing PvP? No. Raids? No.

I find it funny sometimes reading these things.

@blambidy.3216 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

No one is trying to stop you loving the game.Some of the flaws actually have stopped people playing the game though.And you don't need to be a chef to know a meal tastes like kitten.If someone doesn't like something that you yourself do, it is not a personal attack to say so.

I agree with OPs sentiments.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

Why not? If their priority is to provide good theme design and not (what I will call) DPS balance, then why would any reasonable person expect it? I won't pretend to know what their priorities are, but I think it's kind of obvious that if we don't have DPS balance after 5 years, they simply don't provide that feature in the game. No one should have a problem with that .. you have options as a consumer.

@troops.8276 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

I see no problem with this. It would be nonsense for Anet to try to appease all players. There is no reasonable expectation from any Game company to maintain all their players by addressing every issue players find with the game ... even Blizzard can't do that. What you view as 'flaws' is likely a conscious business decision ... it's not like Anet isn't aware of what is done in the industry.

That a 'flaw' may be a conscious business decision does not make it 'intended' or how they wanted it to be, or positive for the consumer. Cost and return at the expense of quality and all that. The 'fix' for many flaws in many industries is an increase in the advertising budget.

@blambidy.3216 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

I actually do know how to manage a dev team and have done game balance, and I agree with the OP. Yes, all MMOs have bugs just as all software has bugs - that's why iterating really slowly makes no fucking sense. Games with far less funding than GW2 do a better job of iterating their game's balance and systems. It's simply a management problem.

@"Chris McSwag.4683" said:You do realise that you complained without giving any actual examples of whats bad, broken, unfun or similar?Which complaints have been seen since launch? What would be a good change?Why dyo you think pve/pvp is in a poor state? The meta that others impose on you? That some builds are better than others on certain things?

Come on, if youre gonna complain you should at least put some effort into suggesting a possible solution - else it just seems like subjective whining.

This is actually very true. Anet gave us a combat log, but noone seems to use it in their complaints. They just throw out suggestions and criticism without providing any evidence from their logs. It doesn't make for very strong arguments at all. I rarely see screenshots of people's claims on the profession fourms.

Added to that, most of the posts regarding "concern for balance" on the profession forurms are:

"My class is underpowered. Please buff it." or "This class that isn't my class is overpowered. Please nerf it."

Of course, lacking in evidence from logs to support claims.

It screams of self interest, not interest in game balance. Its no wonder its hard to take seriously.

Not to mention, there are a few other things on the forums:

--A lot of PvP players don't seem to understand that this game is balanced around 5v5 capture point PvP, not 1v1 deathmatch PvP.--A lot of PvE players seem to want to go for the fastest "meta" route possible, seemingly oblivious to the fact that you can just take yourself and friends/guildmates (and there is really no excuse not to have a guild in this game) and run through all of the content (including raids) without the ultra speedrun-esque gear/builds. Every game has its "ultra-optimal" setups for PvE speedrunning and naturally most builds are going to be removed from those set-ups.--A lot of WvWvW players don't seem to realize that running in small groups, rather than organizing the entire server into a zerg with a small amount of outliers who roam, is a really bad idea and isn't exactly healthy for the gamestyle as a whole. But, its easier on the individual player (and it allows players to not have to learn as much about the game), so what the hell. And because classes with a lot of AoE potential are effective against zergs, they complain about these classes rather than finding another (better) way to organize themselves.

The flaw in this entire argument is that you assume your vision of balance is the same as Anet's vision of balance. Just because you want strictly dps balance (or whatever your criteria may be) does not mean they do. You have zero information on what metrics they use.

So don't come here saying the game is unbalanced, when what you really mean is that the game is not balanced the way I WANT IT TO BE.

Gaem not gud! Maek gaem gud and it not be bad!

Great criticism, 10/10, A-Net hire this guy/gal please, they'll fix all of your game.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

Just because GW2 handles "classes" differently doesn't mean there is a lack of trinity, GW2 has more options for supporting/tanky builds than most games do. There are tanky builds, there are dps builds, and there are support builds. Go in pvp and you'll find there have been annoying and strong builds for all three categories. Pve has builds that fit all three as well, however GW2 has it where they are "optional", although realistically there's a dedicated support for most groups anyways, leaving out just the tank. However, a lot of games do not require tanks either.

The issue with themes has nothing to do with trinity or no trinity, it's about the theme of the specialization. Anet has talked about themes rather often. Some specializations or builds can't be balanced strictly through numbers, they'll always be doomed to either be too good, or too bad. If you've looked at League of Legends you would see that there too. Some champions end up with complete overhauls when numbers do not balance them, and some champions have a history of being on either side, but rarely in the middle. Even items see changes when it is impacting a role too much. However, Anet doesn't dedicated much resources into changes beyond numbers of abilities/traits, which will not always be enough to truly balance things out. As it stands, GW2 has many "options", but most of them are rather useless.

Your statement is mostly PvP-related, right? Because balance in PvE environment is, so far, apparently not bad, because I don't read mass postings of content not being able to be done by a certain profession. And PvP, well, who cares? I mean, who really cares? You might post this in the subforums there, it's full with whine anyways. The whole threads being Class Y is OP, No Class Z is, and we all agree class B is UP and useless. 24/7, month for month.

And why would people be away from the game (and out of PvP, as if people would consider GW2, a 35 GByte monster of a fully-fledged MMORPG, solely for PvP? Again, because of PvE imbalances? What?) when they can not even know about PvE balance yet - which is, is said, fine.

Class design is such a vital part of deciding for or against a particular game, so you might consider changing if you think the grass is greener on the other side. I actually like the class design, Engineer brought me here and Deadeye ignited my love for GW2 like gasoline in an open fire.

I work in a company that makes billions of revenue but still people complain and just go like: "U company is sucks. I nevar come back and others are soo much gooder." And then he is there again next day. As long as the business/game works for the vast majority of its target audience, and that's the effort of a good developer team, complaints about things that can't be satisfied ever SHOULD be left out anyways. You can't reach 100%, nowhere, never. When it's 85%, or 88%, you reached your goal. Those 12% are PvP players and other guys that think like Grimheart has displayed above.

Go to the next bakery and make a survey.88% will say they buy from there because it's okay.6% will say "The pretzels are too bright and should be baked for a longer amount of time"6% will say "The pretzels are too dark and should be baked for a shorter amount of time"The bakery won't sacrifice the quality of the 88% happy customers just to fix a problem for the 12%.Not because the bakery is evil and hates you, but e.g. buying two ovens to bake with different temperatures cost too much for a minority.If aNet really wants to fix their PvP balance, they need really a whole team of several people - who pays that? It's not worth it. So you have a small team that does mistakes here and there as well as one oven in the bakery making default pretzels.

Excelsior.

Just walk in to the training area and auto attack vs max dps. Then you realize how insignificant the abilities actually are.

@Zedek.8932 said:Your statement is mostly PvP-related, right? Because balance in PvE environment is, so far, apparently not bad, because I don't read mass postings of content not being able to be done by a certain profession. And PvP, well, who cares? I mean, who really cares? You might post this in the subforums there, it's full with whine anyways. The whole threads being Class Y is OP, No Class Z is, and we all agree class B is UP and useless. 24/7, month for month.

And why would people be away from the game (and out of PvP, as if people would consider GW2, a 35 GByte monster of a fully-fledged MMORPG, solely for PvP? Again, because of PvE imbalances? What?) when they can not even know about PvE balance yet - which is, is said, fine.

Class design is such a vital part of deciding for or against a particular game, so you might consider changing if you think the grass is greener on the other side. I actually like the class design, Engineer brought me here and Deadeye ignited my love for GW2 like gasoline in an open fire.

I work in a company that makes billions of revenue but still people complain and just go like: "U company is sucks. I nevar come back and others are soo much gooder." And then he is there again next day. As long as the business/game works for the vast majority of its target audience, and that's the effort of a good developer team, complaints about things that can't be satisfied ever SHOULD be left out anyways. You can't reach 100%, nowhere, never. When it's 85%, or 88%, you reached your goal. Those 12% are PvP players and other guys that think like Grimheart has displayed above.

Go to the next bakery and make a survey.88% will say they buy from there because it's okay.6% will say "The pretzels are too bright and should be baked for a longer amount of time"6% will say "The pretzels are too dark and should be baked for a shorter amount of time"The bakery won't sacrifice the quality of the 88% happy customers just to fix a problem for the 12%.Not because the bakery is evil and hates you, but e.g. buying two ovens to bake with different temperatures cost too much for a minority.If aNet really wants to fix their PvP balance, they need really a whole team of several people - who pays that? It's not worth it. So you have a small team that does mistakes here and there as well as one oven in the bakery making default pretzels.

Excelsior.

It's not just PVP, its all game modes have similar complaints. You should really get out more.

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

You must be new ... the game was sold on the fact there is no trinity needed for play ... and that fact still stands. Yes, you can build a tanky build. That does not mean there is a holy trinity structure to the gameplay.

I was massively disappointed in the PoF specs. Some were fun, but a lot of them seemed way too niche, practically useless outside of specific situations.

I disagree. The maps are completely pointless and aimless. There is no immersive content. There are no stories to discover or see. Nothing to build up. No way to contribute or change anything. The PoF maps are the second worst in this regard, exceeded only by the huge missteps that were the HoT maps. A dessert is a terrible place to set an expansion because a dessert by its very nature is empty and boring. There is a reason why they of the Sahara, "The only endemic disease is madness".

People complained that the dungeons in Skyrim are amusement park rides because you get off the ride where you got on once the ride is over and you get to the end of the dungeon ride, but that is nothing compared to Guild Wars 2. At least in Skyrim you actually felt like you accomplished and completed something by finishing the dungeon. You interact with the dungeon, maybe talked to an NPC that tasked you with getting something in the dungeon, you discovered something completely unusual. Maybe you pulled a book off the shelf, and I mean actually pulled a book off the shelf, and read it. Maybe while exploring the armor racks and weapon racks you found an ancient magic weapon or armor. Went for a swim in the enchanted spring. Found the dead body of a long dead mage and solved the mystery that even Scooby Doo couldn't solve. The point is that the dungeons in Skyrim are immersive and final. The events in Guild Wars 2 are non immersive and constantly repeat to such an extent that there isn't even the illusion that you accomplished something. You know that you only went for a ride.

@Ellisande.5218 said:I disagree. The maps are completely pointless and aimless. There is no immersive content. There are no stories to discover or see. Nothing to build up. No way to contribute or change anything. The PoF maps are the second worst in this regard, exceeded only by the huge missteps that were the HoT maps. A dessert is a terrible place to set an expansion because a dessert by its very nature is empty and boring. There is a reason why they of the Sahara, "The only endemic disease is madness".

People complained that the dungeons in Skyrim are amusement park rides because you get off the ride where you got on once the ride is over and you get to the end of the dungeon ride, but that is nothing compared to Guild Wars 2. At least in Skyrim you actually felt like you accomplished and completed something by finishing the dungeon. You interact with the dungeon, maybe talked to an NPC that tasked you with getting something in the dungeon, you discovered something completely unusual. Maybe you pulled a book off the shelf, and I mean actually pulled a book off the shelf, and read it. Maybe while exploring the armor racks and weapon racks you found an ancient magic weapon or armor. Went for a swim in the enchanted spring. Found the dead body of a long dead mage and solved the mystery that even Scooby Doo couldn't solve. The point is that the dungeons in Skyrim are immersive and final. The events in Guild Wars 2 are non immersive and constantly repeat to such an extent that there isn't even the illusion that you accomplished something. You know that you only went for a ride.

The problem with that last part you mention about Skyrim dungeons to PoF is not the content I would say, the problem is there's too many enemies in certain areas so you can't even decide on that same book situation.You see the book on the shelf, you then aggro an enemy, you then kill the enemy and decided to check the book out. Before you get halfway into the thing (or 1/3), the enemy would just respawn and chances are aggro other things in the room to attack you. Rinse and repeat.The problem is no time to really check the surrounding.

Just look at Soulbeast... Beastmode visual effect looks like it belongs on Druid... Spec weapon stats are from Druid...Going in/out beastmode is clumsy and annoying (lose it when mount, going into water... wanna jump right into action? haha keep dreaming!)... can't switch pets while in beastmode... No sync option to switch weapon+pet while in beastmode...It's so unfinished/broken i finally gave up on trying to do story and pof maps. Got that ascended dagger (with Druid stats haha!) tho, changed stats in mystic toilet and put it in my Spellbreaker's offhand slot (now two ascended daggers yay). That's all it was good for.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Kahrgan.7401 said:I give huge props to the artists, and designers of the world in this game, they are absolutely phenomenal.

Developers trying to keep to a THEME instead of balance.

You must not play the game at endgame levels : 90% of the time you will find or it will be asked in a raid group or team a condi PS, Chrono and Druid. There's your trinity.

Not even talking about the fact that some classes are left to rot since years : necro, power Rev in PvE since they nerfed it to oblivion because of PvP instead of nerfing in the proper game mode etc. etc.

It doesn't matter what their design view is, let's face it the balance in the game is one of the worst. Which game would let any OP or messed up situation go on for months and even years? Honestly. The game isn't that bad but the fact that you can't play a spec you love because Anet made silly buffs that lead to this stupid burst condi meta really doesn't help. And making small useless changes every 3 to 6 months is worse. Devs used to talk in professions forums, and there had been exchanges of ideas. It's even that way Revenant got their mist effect from dodging. Now they're nowhere to be found.

Look at the game named Mordhau for example : the community can properly give feedback and speak with the developpers. Can you really do that here? Nope.