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Possible Terrible Change Coming to Power Reverent 12/12

otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone). At small amounts vulnerability doesn’t feel good and adding more vulnerability to something that is capped on it has little value. These changes will offer chances to spike up vulnerability when it is ebbing or encourage new build styles.

  • e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

Source

Elities are not rotational for power Rev in PvE and are situational in PvP. I guess nerfing rev every balance patch is Anet staple now.

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Comments

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    These are terrible changes for rev all around. Both condi and power will be nerfed for literally zero reason. I really do not get their logic when really it is only 1-2 condi specs that are broken right now.

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    ANET...

    Unless you are planning to do another balance patch a month after or earlier, please I beg you to reconsider your actions. It's still not too late so please listen to the people who have already played your game for thousands of hours (I'm currently at 1,647 hours on Revenant, 2,982 total)

    Repost from another thread

    Yeah now that I think about it... so far the "new" Mutilate Defenses trait is a straight nerf to Revenant......... Having to blow the elite skill just to get 5 vulnerability stacks.
    That's not an option for Jalis nor Shiro.
    It's even a bigger nerf to Hammer and Staff (which already struggle with DPS), since they wont be able to apply "reliable" vulnerability anymore. So no more Targeted Destruction (bonus damage on targets with vulnerability ) or Focused Siphoning (siphon life on targets with vulnerability).

    And unless you are planning to buff every weapon across the board (highly doubt it), this is not going to work... this is just plain bad so far if you don't compensate them with damage buffs. Also losing "reliability" from the little sustain Revenant has, Focused Siphoning.
    Please aid Revenant by not making it even more under-performing for other 4 months.

    Thanks

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    If this change goes through, they have demonstrated perfectly that they have no idea how this class works and have never read the tooltips. As if removing Equilibrium wasn't horrible decision making, it just continues on and on. Straight up foolish, I hope your company hurts in 2018. The lack of attention in this game is so sad.

    Removing Equilibrium was the RIGHT choice. Did it hurt power builds? yes. Was it needed? yes In WvW the trait was flat out broken being able to hit 8k+ just for swapping legend with no tell or cast time or anything. It needed to be changed. Maybe they could have kept it but nerfed the WvW and adding like a 1second delay or something so that people see they have legend swapped and know they big damage is coming sothey have a chance to avoid it would have been a good idea as well (the replace trait does suck...)

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    If this change goes through, they have demonstrated perfectly that they have no idea how this class works and have never read the tooltips. As if removing Equilibrium wasn't horrible decision making, it just continues on and on. Straight up foolish, I hope your company hurts in 2018. The lack of attention in this game is so sad.

    Removing Equilibrium was the RIGHT choice. Did it hurt power builds? yes. Was it needed? yes In WvW the trait was flat out broken being able to hit 8k+ just for swapping legend with no tell or cast time or anything. It needed to be changed. Maybe they could have kept it but nerfed the WvW and adding like a 1second delay or something so that people see they have legend swapped and know they big damage is coming sothey have a chance to avoid it would have been a good idea as well (the replace trait does suck...)

    8k...if you count hydromancy maybe, but that's not fair since everyone has hydromancy. Without hydromancy it would require full zerk 25 vulnerability and 25 might.

    I would have preferred they brought the nerf from PvP over to WvW than replacing Equilibrium with Spirit Boon.

    Idk how anyone even argues that Equilibrium was OP. It cost 50 energy and they had to be on top of you to hit it. You complained about no cast, so? As long as Fresh Air and Smite Condition exist, Equilibrium is fair. Do you know the damage I can inflict with 50 energy that I instead sacrificed for an Equilibrium burst? Anet themselves said they were removing it because it was too hard to use, sounds like the opposite of OP to me.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XxsdgxX.8109 said:

    And unless you are planning to buff every weapon across the board (highly doubt it), this is not going to work... this is just plain bad so far if you don't compensate them with damage buffs. Also losing "reliability" from the little sustain Revenant has, Focused Siphoning.
    Please aid Revenant by not making it even more under-performing for other 4 months.

    Thanks

    Why would they buff every weapon? They are all (except Short bow) either broken in terms of damage cough Hammer cough or they are at least very, very solid. I hope they do this sort of thing with all these "chance on crit" traits. Make it so you have to actually do something more than wail on auto attack to get an effect because they are SO boring. So passive.

    As for Focused Siphoning, what they could do is make it so that it increases the damage done and healing based on the Vul stacks the target has, using Power and Healing power of course.

    Those that use something like Embrace The Darkness, 5 stacks for 5 seconds for activating and deactivating it wouldnt be so bad, i personally think the stacks should be higher and last longer but with an ICD would help a little.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    8k...if you count hydromancy maybe, but that's not fair since everyone has hydromancy. Without hydromancy it would require full zerk 25 vulnerability and 25 might.

    I would have preferred they brought the nerf from PvP over to WvW than replacing Equilibrium with Spirit Boon.

    Idk how anyone even argues that Equilibrium was OP. It cost 50 energy and they had to be on top of you to hit it. You complained about no cast, so? As long as Fresh Air and Smite Condition exist, Equilibrium is fair. Do you know the damage I can inflict with 50 energy that I instead sacrificed for an Equilibrium burst? Anet themselves said they were removing it because it was too hard to use, sounds like the opposite of OP to me.

    No. 8k as in 8k+ Hell, i have been hit for crazy damage it from it in the past, part of the reason i refused to use it myself. Boring trait. it would cost between 1 energy and 50 energy, seeing as all you would need to do to get it back up past the requirement is to use Auto attack and they hit hella hard on power builds anyway and maybe stop spamming Glint abilities for a few seconds.

    yeah They also say a lot of other kitten as well. Doesn't mean they would admit their design was broken. You think they would come out and say "rather than fix this broken damage trait, we will just replace it with someone else"? Of course not. The damage it dealt on its own was too much. combine that with sigils and such and you could burst someone down with ease by simply swapping legend...

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    8k...if you count hydromancy maybe, but that's not fair since everyone has hydromancy. Without hydromancy it would require full zerk 25 vulnerability and 25 might.

    I would have preferred they brought the nerf from PvP over to WvW than replacing Equilibrium with Spirit Boon.

    Idk how anyone even argues that Equilibrium was OP. It cost 50 energy and they had to be on top of you to hit it. You complained about no cast, so? As long as Fresh Air and Smite Condition exist, Equilibrium is fair. Do you know the damage I can inflict with 50 energy that I instead sacrificed for an Equilibrium burst? Anet themselves said they were removing it because it was too hard to use, sounds like the opposite of OP to me.

    No. 8k as in 8k+ Hell, i have been hit for crazy damage it from it in the past, part of the reason i refused to use it myself. Boring trait. it would cost between 1 energy and 50 energy, seeing as all you would need to do to get it back up past the requirement is to use Auto attack and they hit hella hard on power builds anyway and maybe stop spamming Glint abilities for a few seconds.

    yeah They also say a lot of other kitten as well. Doesn't mean they would admit their design was broken. You think they would come out and say "rather than fix this broken damage trait, we will just replace it with someone else"? Of course not. The damage it dealt on its own was too much. combine that with sigils and such and you could burst someone down with ease by simply swapping legend...

    And thieves can hit 20k DJs and 11k backstabs. Mesmers can drop a 20k shatter burst. Both of these from stealth.

    If you want to take the one shot angle, there are far worse offenders.

    If Equilibrium was so "broken" when can we see you campaigning for 6k smite conditions and 4k Fresh Air lightning strikes (ranged and virtually lacking a CD) to be removed?

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    This guy... keeps jumping on every thread whenever Revenant is being mentioned, trying invalidate every argument or fact that he personally might not like.
    Straight class hate at this point.
    "Lul equilibrium braindead easy, Herald is so easy to play" kitten what...
    Go check that post history

    Absolutely pointless trying to "argue" with him and his mental gymnastics.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XxsdgxX.8109 said:
    This guy... keeps jumping on every thread whenever Revenant is being mentioned, trying invalidate every argument or fact that he personally might not like.
    Straight class hate at this point.
    "Lul equilibrium braindead easy, Herald is so easy to play" kitten what...
    Go check that post history

    Absolutely pointless trying to "argue" with him and his mental gymnastics.

    Thats because it was, same goes for the Thief and Warrior Dodge traits. Doing that much damage from just swapping legend. I for one never used it and im glad that its gone. Rev is likely my most played class since the release of HoT, shame that Renegade just kinda sucks but thats a different matter entirely.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    And thieves can hit 20k DJs and 11k backstabs. Mesmers can drop a 20k shatter burst. Both of these from stealth.

    If you want to take the one shot angle, there are far worse offenders.

    If Equilibrium was so "broken" when can we see you campaigning for 6k smite conditions and 4k Fresh Air lightning strikes (ranged and virtually lacking a CD) to be removed?

    yeah and i also pointed out how broken DJ is which also got hit with loads of people complaining that my opinion was different from theres that it was "fine" You talking about the trait or the skill Smite Conditions? Because you cant really compare an actual skill with a 20second cool down Vs a 10second cool down trait. As for Fresh Air, i hate it myself. I find builds that are all "press all the buttons as soon as possible" insanely cheap, boring and far too many to be broken.

  • Revenant does not have stealth. Only two blinks, both tied to weapon or a legend and only work if you have target in range. Revenant hit like wed noodles, even with 25 stacks of might comparing to any other class. To top that, you can't use skills at any time you want because your own class mechanics cripples you, the only specs mechanics that punishes you for using it now is Holo but it's skills hit really hard.
    Why would anyone choose it over any other class? Shiny fancy skill animations.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    And thieves can hit 20k DJs and 11k backstabs. Mesmers can drop a 20k shatter burst. Both of these from stealth.

    If you want to take the one shot angle, there are far worse offenders.

    If Equilibrium was so "broken" when can we see you campaigning for 6k smite conditions and 4k Fresh Air lightning strikes (ranged and virtually lacking a CD) to be removed?

    yeah and i also pointed out how broken DJ is which also got hit with loads of people complaining that my opinion was different from theres that it was "fine" You talking about the trait or the skill Smite Conditions? Because you cant really compare an actual skill with a 20second cool down Vs a 10second cool down trait. As for Fresh Air, i hate it myself. I find builds that are all "press all the buttons as soon as possible" insanely cheap, boring and far too many to be broken.

    I mentioned Smite Condition because it is a powerful AoE instant skill like Equilibrium and you seem to be fine with it because there's a CD lol? What about the fact that most guards running Smite Condition run meditation traits? They get 2 Smite Conditions via utility and trait, and they each heal, cure two conditions and give fury. For free at a short CD of 16s traited, no energy drama, no effort, only needs 1 condition applied to deal full damage, hits up to 5 or 6k.

    I like how you say Equilibrium has a 10s CD lol I'd have loved a video of you fighting and using Equilibrium on every legend swap on cooldown.

    Thief Mesmer and fresh air ele may be press as many buttons as possible builds, but how was revenant like that? And why is that bad? If connecting burst skills into a combo is something you don't like umm...too bad? L2P?

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    I mentioned Smite Condition because it is a powerful AoE instant skill like Equilibrium and you seem to be fine with it because there's a CD lol? What about the fact that most guards running Smite Condition run meditation traits? They get 2 Smite Conditions via utility and trait, and they each heal cure, two conditions and give fury. For free at a short CD of 16s traited, no energy no requirement no effort, hits up to 5 or 6k.

    I like how you say Equilibrium has a 10s CD lol I'd have loved a video of you fighting and using Equilibrium every legend swap on cooldown.

    Thief Mesmer and fresh air ele may be press as many buttons as possible builds, but how was revenant like that? And why is that bad? If connecting burst skills into a combo is something you don't like umm...too bad? L2P?

    Hell, if Anet want to make a skill for Revenant with a reasonable cool down that did what Equilibrium did. That would be fine. Go ahead. The issue is NO trait on any class (and unfortunately there are still too many...) that are just way too strong. Yes. Its a utility, it takes up a slot, has double the cool down (or 16seconds if traited) and the smaller version of the skill (the trait) doesnt deal anywhere near as much damage as the main skill. and only works with the heal which means a longer cool down as well.

    Well, it did have a 10second cool down. If you swapped as soon as the legend comes off cool down, that is 10seconds. Do many people do that? No. That doesnt change that it becomes useable when the legend comes off cool down.

    Thief really isnt, Most thief builds are using as much stealth as possible and then either spamming "1" until it lands and then spamming "3" or spamming "5" if running Daredevil and Staff. Mesmer and Thief are pretty much spam, spam, spam. Especially Scepter Ele, even more so for Fresh Air. Because the ability to press as many buttons as possible as short amount of time as possible isnt skill based combat. It does kinda take skill to be able to press them all so quickly (unless using Macros...) but the insanely broken power creep is what wins, not skill. Not using the right ability at the right time. Most of these builds wouldnt be anywhere near as bad if the Power creep was stopped a long time ago.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    I mentioned Smite Condition because it is a powerful AoE instant skill like Equilibrium and you seem to be fine with it because there's a CD lol? What about the fact that most guards running Smite Condition run meditation traits? They get 2 Smite Conditions via utility and trait, and they each heal cure, two conditions and give fury. For free at a short CD of 16s traited, no energy no requirement no effort, hits up to 5 or 6k.

    I like how you say Equilibrium has a 10s CD lol I'd have loved a video of you fighting and using Equilibrium every legend swap on cooldown.

    Thief Mesmer and fresh air ele may be press as many buttons as possible builds, but how was revenant like that? And why is that bad? If connecting burst skills into a combo is something you don't like umm...too bad? L2P?

    Hell, if Anet want to make a skill for Revenant with a reasonable cool down that did what Equilibrium did. That would be fine. Go ahead. The issue is NO trait on any class (and unfortunately there are still too many...) that are just way too strong. Yes. Its a utility, it takes up a slot, has double the cool down (or 16seconds if traited) and the smaller version of the skill (the trait) doesnt deal anywhere near as much damage as the main skill. and only works with the heal which means a longer cool down as well.

    Well, it did have a 10second cool down. If you swapped as soon as the legend comes off cool down, that is 10seconds. Do many people do that? No. That doesnt change that it becomes useable when the legend comes off cool down.

    Idk why you completely ignore the 50 energy requirement lol. At best Equilibrium's true effective cooldown is 20 seconds when you swap from Glint to Shiro. It almost never happens going Shiro to Glint, and whenever it does it takes properly kiting while conserving energy and knowing what skills take how much energy to make sure you're over 50 energy when you swap. That takes...at least some intelligent play and deserves to be rewarded. Equilibrium was the ultimate trait in rewarding good revenants and distinguishing them from worse ones, which is literally the best kind of game design.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    If this change goes through, they have demonstrated perfectly that they have no idea how this class works and have never read the tooltips. As if removing Equilibrium wasn't horrible decision making, it just continues on and on. Straight up foolish, I hope your company hurts in 2018. The lack of attention in this game is so sad.

    This change doesn't really have a lot to do with Rev specifically, they're changing both vulnerability and condition damage across the board.

    If anything, we should be complaining that after the condi nerf, that we'll no longer have a raid spot (outside of healing) unless power deeps gets a serious buff.

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    I mentioned Smite Condition because it is a powerful AoE instant skill like Equilibrium and you seem to be fine with it because there's a CD lol? What about the fact that most guards running Smite Condition run meditation traits? They get 2 Smite Conditions via utility and trait, and they each heal cure, two conditions and give fury. For free at a short CD of 16s traited, no energy no requirement no effort, hits up to 5 or 6k.

    I like how you say Equilibrium has a 10s CD lol I'd have loved a video of you fighting and using Equilibrium every legend swap on cooldown.

    Thief Mesmer and fresh air ele may be press as many buttons as possible builds, but how was revenant like that? And why is that bad? If connecting burst skills into a combo is something you don't like umm...too bad? L2P?

    Hell, if Anet want to make a skill for Revenant with a reasonable cool down that did what Equilibrium did. That would be fine. Go ahead. The issue is NO trait on any class (and unfortunately there are still too many...) that are just way too strong. Yes. Its a utility, it takes up a slot, has double the cool down (or 16seconds if traited) and the smaller version of the skill (the trait) doesnt deal anywhere near as much damage as the main skill. and only works with the heal which means a longer cool down as well.

    Well, it did have a 10second cool down. If you swapped as soon as the legend comes off cool down, that is 10seconds. Do many people do that? No. That doesnt change that it becomes useable when the legend comes off cool down.

    Thief really isnt, Most thief builds are using as much stealth as possible and then either spamming "1" until it lands and then spamming "3" or spamming "5" if running Daredevil and Staff. Mesmer and Thief are pretty much spam, spam, spam. Especially Scepter Ele, even more so for Fresh Air. Because the ability to press as many buttons as possible as short amount of time as possible isnt skill based combat. It does kinda take skill to be able to press them all so quickly (unless using Macros...) but the insanely broken power creep is what wins, not skill. Not using the right ability at the right time. Most of these builds wouldnt be anywhere near as bad if the Power creep was stopped a long time ago.

    If it was up to me I'd nerf everything across the board, believe me. But the chances for that are so stupid slim.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    I'm having a hard time seeing how spiking 5 Vuln on first hit in combat offers distinct opportunities or synergies with other traits ... what other traits does Rev have that trigger in combat that UNIQUELY take advantage of a 5 stack, 5 second Vuln spike that wouldn't get that advantage if it didn't spike like that? I could be convinced Anet wasn't just blowing smoke up our rear ends if there was a distinct opportunity to burst someone for the first 5 seconds in combat ...

    To be fair, these kinds of passive effects aren't all that interesting to begin with but let's not fool ourselves Anet ... we are talking about the FIRST fixed trait; no one is going to focus on changing a build based on such a thing ... or even a dozen of such things. I reserve further disappointment for release.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • thebatman.6250thebatman.6250 Member ✭✭✭

    Eh, I'm okay with this change. Looking forward to seeing what I can do with it :^)

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @narcx.3570 said:
    If anything, we should be complaining that after the condi nerf, that we'll no longer have a raid spot (outside of healing) unless power deeps gets a serious buff.

    I don't think the devs realize the reason condi's are being taken in raids is due to how bad a lot of power builds are. They shouldn't even touch Renegade since it doesn't deal burst damage through condi's but I doubt they care at this point.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    Hell, if Anet want to make a skill for Revenant with a reasonable cool down that did what Equilibrium did. That would be fine. Go ahead. The issue is NO trait on any class (and unfortunately there are still too many...) that are just way too strong.

    That's false. Thief has traits that daze you + interrupts you + roots you, and can be used from stealth. Mesmer has traits that interrupts you + dazes you + stuns you + puts over you a dozen of confusion stacks, and again can be used from stealth.

    But I'm ok with the change because makes harder to play a sub-class (Herald) which I like because how hard to play is. There's nothing special about using thieves, mesmers or necros.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm having a hard time seeing how spiking 5 Vuln on first hit in combat offers distinct opportunities or synergies with other traits ... what other traits does Rev have that trigger in combat that UNIQUELY take advantage of a 5 stack, 5 second Vuln spike that wouldn't get that advantage if it didn't spike like that? I could be convinced Anet wasn't just blowing smoke up our rear ends if there was a distinct opportunity to burst someone for the first 5 seconds in combat ...

    To be fair, these kinds of passive effects aren't all that interesting to begin with but let's not fool ourselves Anet ... we are talking about the FIRST fixed trait; no one is going to focus on changing a build based on such a thing ... or even a dozen of such things. I reserve further disappointment for release.

    Devastation line, which this trait is a part of, has two other traits that build on vunerability. 7% extra damage to targets with vulnerability and 67 heal and extra damage to targets with vulnerability. In additional, this is the only trait outside of sword aa that puts vulnerability.

    This is unquestionably a nerf if it goes through, since it limits vulnerability uptime on target, in favor of, nothing basically.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm having a hard time seeing how spiking 5 Vuln on first hit in combat offers distinct opportunities or synergies with other traits ... what other traits does Rev have that trigger in combat that UNIQUELY take advantage of a 5 stack, 5 second Vuln spike that wouldn't get that advantage if it didn't spike like that? I could be convinced Anet wasn't just blowing smoke up our rear ends if there was a distinct opportunity to burst someone for the first 5 seconds in combat ...

    To be fair, these kinds of passive effects aren't all that interesting to begin with but let's not fool ourselves Anet ... we are talking about the FIRST fixed trait; no one is going to focus on changing a build based on such a thing ... or even a dozen of such things. I reserve further disappointment for release.

    Devastation line, which this trait is a part of, has two other traits that build on vunerability. 7% extra damage to targets with vulnerability and 67 heal and extra damage to targets with vulnerability. In additional, this is the only trait outside of sword aa that puts vulnerability.

    This is unquestionably a nerf if it goes through, since it limits vulnerability uptime on target, in favor of, nothing basically.

    While I agree it's not the change I would want to see, there is so much Vuln flying around that the biggest impact here is on solo play. Still, I don't want solo play nerfed ... in fact, I think anything that nerfs solo play and has almost no change to group play is a rather bad direction Anet could take. This particular change appears rather ... stupid. I see no way it achieves either of the things Anet is saying it will offer us.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Set.7461Set.7461 Member ✭✭✭

    Tying the reapplication to elite skills is a bad decision. It pretty much favors upkeep elites like Mallyx/Glint and we don't know if it activates on the initial facet(like surging runes) or after chaotic release. Spending 40-100 energy(RoTGD PvP version - Energy Expulsion) to get 5 stacks of vuln? I agree. It's an overall nerf. We don't know the whole picture as I'm sure they plan on nerfing condi across all classes.

    A simpler, more elegant solution would be tying the reset to legend swap. That would affect all legends equally. That or just leave it alone. As if rev needs any more nerfs.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm having a hard time seeing how spiking 5 Vuln on first hit in combat offers distinct opportunities or synergies with other traits ... what other traits does Rev have that trigger in combat that UNIQUELY take advantage of a 5 stack, 5 second Vuln spike that wouldn't get that advantage if it didn't spike like that? I could be convinced Anet wasn't just blowing smoke up our rear ends if there was a distinct opportunity to burst someone for the first 5 seconds in combat ...

    To be fair, these kinds of passive effects aren't all that interesting to begin with but let's not fool ourselves Anet ... we are talking about the FIRST fixed trait; no one is going to focus on changing a build based on such a thing ... or even a dozen of such things. I reserve further disappointment for release.

    Devastation line, which this trait is a part of, has two other traits that build on vunerability. 7% extra damage to targets with vulnerability and 67 heal and extra damage to targets with vulnerability. In additional, this is the only trait outside of sword aa that puts vulnerability.

    This is unquestionably a nerf if it goes through, since it limits vulnerability uptime on target, in favor of, nothing basically.

    While I agree it's not the change I would want to see, there is so much Vuln flying around that the biggest impact here is on solo play. Still, I don't want solo play nerfed ... in fact, I think anything that nerfs solo play and has almost no change to group play is a rather bad direction Anet could take. This particular change appears rather ... stupid. I see no way it achieves either of the things Anet is saying it will offer us.

    It is mostly a pvp nerf where cleanses make maintaining any vulnerability much less reliable.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    Idk why you completely ignore the 50 energy requirement lol. At best Equilibrium's true effective cooldown is 20 seconds when you swap from Glint to Shiro. It almost never happens going Shiro to Glint, and whenever it does it takes properly kiting while conserving energy and knowing what skills take how much energy to make sure you're over 50 energy when you swap. That takes...at least some intelligent play and deserves to be rewarded. Equilibrium was the ultimate trait in rewarding good revenants and distinguishing them from worse ones, which is literally the best kind of game design.

    You mean the passive regenerating energy? The one that all you have to do is auto attack a bit, stop using certain energy expensive skills as often? Yeah its so tricky. I mean you could have quite easily started in your secondary legend, jumped in got your damage done, legend swap instantly for all that lovely damage and sigil procs, now you are in your preferred legend with plenty of time to go to town on skills and still leave time for you to stay above 50% ready for it to come off cool down.

    No. Its effective cool down is 10seconds. The 10seconds it takes for legends to come off cool down. You can stay in legends for longer if you wish but its cool down is 10seconds. That is like saying Elementlist atutnement swap is longer because some people stay in certain attunements longer than the cool downs.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    Hell, if Anet want to make a skill for Revenant with a reasonable cool down that did what Equilibrium did. That would be fine. Go ahead. The issue is NO trait on any class (and unfortunately there are still too many...) that are just way too strong.

    That's false. Thief has traits that daze you + interrupts you + roots you, and can be used from stealth. Mesmer has traits that interrupts you + dazes you + stuns you + puts over you a dozen of confusion stacks, and again can be used from stealth.

    But I'm ok with the change because makes harder to play a sub-class (Herald) which I like because how hard to play is. There's nothing special about using thieves, mesmers or necros.

    I meant there are TOO many traits that are simply too strong, traits that carry bad players or are SO strong they define whole builds or classes because they are so important to take for what ever reason. The same goes for all the passive proc traits like chance on hit or crit, effect on dodge or weapon swap. You should be dodging/swapping weapon because you want to avoid damage or need the skills on the other weapon not because of the effects that are given because of you dodging or swapping weapon.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    I meant there are TOO many traits that are simply too strong, traits that carry bad players or are SO strong they define whole builds or classes because they are so important to take for what ever reason. The same goes for all the passive proc traits like chance on hit or crit, effect on dodge or weapon swap. You should be dodging/swapping weapon because you want to avoid damage or need the skills on the other weapon not because of the effects that are given because of you dodging or swapping weapon.

    But equilibriun wasn't a passive skill, because wasn't procced just swapping a legend. You had to be in combat, let the energy to hit the 50 units or above (in a class in which any skill outside auto attacks to cost energy) and then swap. So it has a COST OF OPPORTUNITY (you became more vulnerable/less powerfull the time you spent stacking energy waiting for a potential effect, and that waiting can go wrong). Do you understand the concept of cost of opportunity? Equilibriun wasn't neither a spammable effect or a random proc. Required both skill and patience.

    The changes in Mutilate Defense are just plain stupid:

    1) Vulnerability intrinsecally doesn't does damage. Is not the kind of condition which causes problems itself or the reason people moans about the "condi meta" in PvP.
    2) The nerf hits mostly solo play/duels. Does literally nothing to prevent 25 stacks of vulnerability in team skirmishes/group play.
    3) The nerf hits a sub class which is currently underused in PvP and roaming, and which is focused in power damage, not condi damage. The nerf literally goes against what the patch claims to try: to prevent burstines from condi builds. What does is to reduce the viability of the only competitive build the Herald has.

    What they should have done instead is to replace the vulnerability proc for a condition cleanse proc or a 2s resistance proc with a 10s, 15s or 20s cooldown. But they known literally nothing about how to play PvP so is not a surprise the game mode is currently a wrecked train.

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    Idk why you completely ignore the 50 energy requirement lol. At best Equilibrium's true effective cooldown is 20 seconds when you swap from Glint to Shiro. It almost never happens going Shiro to Glint, and whenever it does it takes properly kiting while conserving energy and knowing what skills take how much energy to make sure you're over 50 energy when you swap. That takes...at least some intelligent play and deserves to be rewarded. Equilibrium was the ultimate trait in rewarding good revenants and distinguishing them from worse ones, which is literally the best kind of game design.

    You mean the passive regenerating energy? The one that all you have to do is auto attack a bit, stop using certain energy expensive skills as often? Yeah its so tricky. I mean you could have quite easily started in your secondary legend, jumped in got your damage done, legend swap instantly for all that lovely damage and sigil procs, now you are in your preferred legend with plenty of time to go to town on skills and still leave time for you to stay above 50% ready for it to come off cool down.

    No. Its effective cool down is 10seconds. The 10seconds it takes for legends to come off cool down. You can stay in legends for longer if you wish but its cool down is 10seconds. That is like saying Elementlist atutnement swap is longer because some people stay in certain attunements longer than the cool downs.

    kitten what
    You lost any credibility again, you make it seem like you only ever played PvP against people AFK. Or probably the only thing that you have ever done is theory-craft with some nice ideal scenarios.

  • thebatman.6250thebatman.6250 Member ✭✭✭

    People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    Yeah this is pointless. Clearly does not know how to play Equilibrium rev and just died a lot to it lol

    Just jump in with your secondary legend (guessing you mean Shiro), like phase Traversal isn't 35 energy! Don't even worry about it, weapon skills don't need energy! You'll get Equilibrium by waiting around for your 50 energy to come back! I guess thieves never run out of initiative in your world too. Idk what enemies you fight that let you sit and auto while waiting for energy, but it's not representative of a competent enemy, stop acting like it is.

    Oh, your only option to attack someone was to teleport to them? I mean sure. Thats an option or you could use the perma swiftness and a dodge to get pretty much on top of most people either way would work. Though my view point again comes from WvW and Roaming at that, I tend to be a player that doesnt waste abilities to get into range if they dont even know you're about to attack them, so...

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XxsdgxX.8109 said:
    kitten what
    You lost any credibility again, you make it seem like you only ever played PvP against people AFK. Or probably the only thing that you have ever done is theory-craft with some nice ideal scenarios.

    PvP in this game is trash, though WvW isnt much better these days to be fair. Roaming these days is pretty much dead :(
    Given that i have nearly 7,000 hours into the game. With i would say a good 6,800 spent in WvW. Dont really need to theory craft ideal scenarios.

    I do find it odd that this trait seemed like it was a little more than bonus bit of damage for some of you, like its the end of the world that this trait has been removed. How reliant were you all on this thing!?

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thebatman.6250 said:
    People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

    Explain how less uptime on 7% damage and life steal is NOT a nerf.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    Yeah this is pointless. Clearly does not know how to play Equilibrium rev and just died a lot to it lol

    Just jump in with your secondary legend (guessing you mean Shiro), like phase Traversal isn't 35 energy! Don't even worry about it, weapon skills don't need energy! You'll get Equilibrium by waiting around for your 50 energy to come back! I guess thieves never run out of initiative in your world too. Idk what enemies you fight that let you sit and auto while waiting for energy, but it's not representative of a competent enemy, stop acting like it is.

    Oh, your only option to attack someone was to teleport to them? I mean sure. Thats an option or you could use the perma swiftness and a dodge to get pretty much on top of most people either way would work. Though my view point again comes from WvW and Roaming at that, I tend to be a player that doesnt waste abilities to get into range if they dont even know you're about to attack them, so...

    Doesn't matter, you were wrong from the very start when you said to start in Shiro. No one does that. Nice try. I don't even believe you play Revenant at all.

    And yes I'm sure most people will let a power revenant, a melee build with no mobility outside of Phase Traversal, walk up to them without any resistance. /s

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Set.7461 said:
    Tying the reapplication to elite skills is a bad decision. It pretty much favors upkeep elites like Mallyx/Glint and we don't know if it activates on the initial facet(like surging runes) or after chaotic release. Spending 40-100 energy(RoTGD PvP version - Energy Expulsion) to get 5 stacks of vuln? I agree. It's an overall nerf. We don't know the whole picture as I'm sure they plan on nerfing condi across all classes.

    A simpler, more elegant solution would be tying the reset to legend swap. That would affect all legends equally. That or just leave it alone. As if rev needs any more nerfs.

    Based off other similar traits it will only proc off Chaotic Release. I will assume it will have some sort of cooldown because if not Condi Renegade will be able to stack this very quickly through EtD since it will proc it off every tick while soulcleave will proc it off the initial cast of the ability.

    The devs must be trolling at this point for a couple of reasons.
    1 - Are they trying to make people play the already dead condi build in pvp after they nerf it? lol
    2 - This will make Devastation 100000% Mandatory in raids depending how they nerf the other vuln traits which is also hilarious because they just buffed invocation to be useful if your comp was more condi oriented.

    I just do not know anymore. Depending on what actually gets changed next Tuesday I might be quitting the game again.

  • Flauvious.6195Flauvious.6195 Member ✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @thebatman.6250 said:
    People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

    Explain how less uptime on 7% damage and life steal is NOT a nerf.

    So I agree that this change is a nerf, but you make it sound like without it our target will never have vulnerability or something and we lose out on these things. Sword auto applies vulnerability and we spend a lot of time autoing, your target never doesn't have it. Besides, in a group vuln is basically always at 25 with no one even trying since so many abilities have vulnerability just sort of tacked on.

  • thebatman.6250thebatman.6250 Member ✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @thebatman.6250 said:
    People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

    Explain how less uptime on 7% damage and life steal is NOT a nerf.

    If you're not keeping at least 1 vuln stack on your target then I wouldn't say the problem lies in the trait :^)

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    I meant there are TOO many traits that are simply too strong, traits that carry bad players or are SO strong they define whole builds or classes because they are so important to take for what ever reason. The same goes for all the passive proc traits like chance on hit or crit, effect on dodge or weapon swap. You should be dodging/swapping weapon because you want to avoid damage or need the skills on the other weapon not because of the effects that are given because of you dodging or swapping weapon.

    But equilibriun wasn't a passive skill, because wasn't procced just swapping a legend. You had to be in combat, let the energy to hit the 50 units or above (in a class in which any skill outside auto attacks to cost energy) and then swap. So it has a COST OF OPPORTUNITY (you became more vulnerable/less powerfull the time you spent stacking energy waiting for a potential effect, and that waiting can go wrong). Do you understand the concept of cost of opportunity? Equilibriun wasn't neither a spammable effect or a random proc. Required both skill and patience.

    >

    Unleash Signet of Nature, Unleash Signet of Strength, Legend Swap... So much patience.

    I do give you that it took skill to not die after blowing your legend swap in an opening combo that left you stuck in Shiro, low on energy for a full ten secs. But whateves, you can do so much damage +1'ing with IR now that you don't even need "patience..." Which is probably a good thing, because being in a fight for any extended amount of time is pretty suicidal with all the mirages/scourges/fb's puking condi's at you while giggling about your lack of cleanse.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    I'm just wondering how nobody on the balance team questioned this at all. Was everyone having a bad day like the time they came up with Disrupter's Sustainment?

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    Unleash Signet of Nature, Unleash Signet of Strength, Legend Swap... So much patience.

    I'm not surprised about the state of the class taking in consideration the amount of people defending the cumuluative nerfs in all the spectrum of skills and traits of the Revenant while also tolerating the unfinished design (no alternative underwater weapons, 4 legends with no aquatic skills, bugs like UA still clipping you inside the geometry of the game since two years ago...).

    Frankly, the class fills exactly the status that deserves.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well there goes a good chunk of my DPS is they don’t make up for it elsewhere.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    I'm just wondering how nobody on the balance team questioned this at all. Was everyone having a bad day like the time they came up with Disrupter's Sustainment?

    I seriously do not think Anet test rev stuff throughly. I main guardian and things are million times more refined on guardian over rev.

  • I think they're making this change because getting 5 vulnerability with this trait was pretty hard in PVP. At 33% chance on crit, even at 100 crit chance it would take 15 attacks to get 5 vuln. Most of the time, by the 15th hit the enemy was already dead. For short term 1 on 1 fights this is actually a buff.

    Everywhere else is a heavy nerf. Group fights, PVE fights, long term 1 on 1 fights... This really tells you where their balance priorities are.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Nor.2057Nor.2057 Member ✭✭

    For someone that was planning a Power Shiro Herald double sword build what build might be recommended (general pve - t2 fractals -bastion of penitent raid)

  • @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    Stupid change, Anet if you don't know what you're doing with revenant just stop touching it. They heard "too many conditions", so they went to a POWER traitline for a POWER non meta class with no condition clear and nerfed kitten vulnerability application (and life steal and dmg as a result of 2 other devastation minors Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning), like oh ok that's totally what we all meant by condition spam: too much vulnerability! Not weakness, torment, confusion, burns no no friends it was all power revenant vulnerability that had to be nerfed! So essentially power revenant is only allowed to get utility out of Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning for the first 5 seconds of a fight.

    They were even so proud of it as to use it as an example of their condition "fix". Even when conditions get nerfed power revenant gets kitten in the kitten.

    What a joke.

    The worst thing is they were actually trying to buff it.

  • @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    If this change goes through, they have demonstrated perfectly that they have no idea how this class works and have never read the tooltips. As if removing Equilibrium wasn't horrible decision making, it just continues on and on. Straight up foolish, I hope your company hurts in 2018. The lack of attention in this game is so sad.

    Removing Equilibrium was the RIGHT choice. Did it hurt power builds? yes. Was it needed? yes In WvW the trait was flat out broken being able to hit 8k+ just for swapping legend with no tell or cast time or anything. It needed to be changed. Maybe they could have kept it but nerfed the WvW and adding like a 1second delay or something so that people see they have legend swapped and know they big damage is coming sothey have a chance to avoid it would have been a good idea as well (the replace trait does suck...)

    Then they need to remove/rework all the skills with no tells or cast times. Why did they start with the revenant? And why did they stop after it?

  • Rym.1469Rym.1469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    The name of this thread is a hyperbole and the announced change won't destroy revenant or anything (I bet you wouldn't even notice the change if you didn't read about it) - remember that sword aa already applies vulnerability.
    Yet, it's another chance on discussion about trait activators.

    I generally don't mind giving players more control in their hands, especially when this control is spread out across multiple different trait activating conditions. However, small things like a chance of extra vulnerability stack on attacks is rather minor and I see no problem with it as it is. It's very easily accessible condition that doesn't do that much unless it's at high stacks - I'm all for shifting it from trash condition status to "high stacks on cooldown" where it becomes significant and planned - but that, primo, already exists in power rev in competitive modes (burst setups with FoS active and/or 5 vuln on weapon swap sigil), secundo - would require vuln to be less accessible to everyone (so big game-wide changes).

    If developers were interested in adding more gameplay and decision-making to traits like this one, they could do that in several other ways without a need for activator, i.e:

    • Mutilate Defenses proc chance is doubled on disabled (CC'd) enemies

    • Mutilate Defenses has a chance to proc on regular hit when striking an enemy with Protection/Resistance boon

    • Every point of Energy spent increases MDefenses proc chance by 2%

    • Idea of major traits temporary enhancing simple minor traits that don't do much to be significant for couple seconds - Spending 50 Energy causes your next X critical attacks to have guaranteed MDefenses procs.

    Small conditional enhancements like that can avoid putting more pressure on activators, saving them for more significant effects and greater traits, while still providing a small (or big on a master/grandmaster trait, if intended) layer of gameplay and extra optimization.

    Yeah, I stream once in a blue moon.