Getting Tired of These First Person Shooter Games

Or what I mean to say is I'm growing weary of insta-deaths in WvW. It's starting to play like a first person shooter with certain current builds. Get blown up within 2 seconds respawn, head to an objective, get them instantly or get yourself decimated again. People who are proponents of these builds will argue "git gud" or "l2p" which is about as helpful or substantial an argument as saying "because." I use these builds on occasion, but I don't particularly enjoy them. Ganking someone gives rewards and a devilish sort of satisfaction, especially when you gank a ganker whose been picking off people at spawn. It's not a particularly healthy gameplay style for an mmo in my opinion, since they are designed to retain players who will typically invest hours of time over months or even years to play them. I generally like first person shooter games, but I usually don't play them for more than an hour. The continual death respawn frequency becomes tedious. In mmos, building up characters, armor and skills to survive and retaliate is part of the craft.

Through the years, I suppose thief has been a regular at this and the main scapegoat, but I don't just mean thief, any profession/build whether condi or power that can down a player that is not full glass in a single move/combo is not healthy to the mmo playstyle. I am not promoting the bunker years where a fight would last for 20 minutes or more, but in an mmo there should be more than, "is there someone behi...."> DEAD, or "the mesmer entered stealth, one one thousand, two one thousand, dodge ro....>DEAD. This works for a first person shooter, but not an mmo in my opinion. Anet might be backed into a corner for balance with the introduction of elite specs. I don't know how to fix it. Balancing numbers for skills is always a start, but skills synergy is definitely harder to balance.

I know I'm not the only one who has spoken out against the "power creep," but perhaps I am feeling the vanilla wow nostalgia syndrome or as the game was right before HoT. What do you think? Please no kitten sarcasm.

@"Kilrik.6320" said:Through the years, I suppose thief has been a regular at this and the main scapegoat, but I don't just mean thief, any profession/build whether condi or power that can down a player that is not full glass in a single move/combo is not healthy to the mmo playstyle. I am not promoting the bunker years where a fight would last for 20 minutes or more, but in an mmo there should be more than, "is there someone behi...."> DEAD, or "the mesmer entered stealth, one one thousand, two one thousand, dodge ro....>DEAD. This works for a first person shooter, but not an mmo in my opinion. Anet might be backed into a corner for balance with the introduction of elite specs. I don't know how to fix it. Balancing numbers for skills is always a start, but skills synergy is definitely harder to balance.

i think on release balanced builds (no bunker , no glas) were strongest ones. but with powercreep in both offense but also alot of defensive powercreep more extreme builds got stronger, now its mosty you play a 'oneshot' or bunker build in wvw. if you want to be bunker but also get some kills you will go condi bunker as that still kills a few people. currently if you dont kill you opponent in 2 seconds, their will most likely be ~100% the moment after. so balanced builds now lack the offence to kill and dont have the defense to survive a glassy player.i do think most complains about balance are targetting either offense or defense. but if you want little longer fights but not bunker meta, then both need to be towned down alot.

I prefer the faster paced combat.

It just doesn't work as well in WvW with zerging and the large majority of players not being able to keep up. Game play in WvW is getting pretty bad tbh. Not a lot of people seem to really grasp the game. (Get opened on from thief in a crowd of 5. Nobody notices but you for a good 10 seconds. Too late)

If you are saying this with regards to a specific build then I would agree there are a few specs that might be a bit too bursty (All the POF specs that are pvp viable).

You earned a thumbs up from me, but nothing will be done unfortunately because the balance team is a complete and utter joke, someone in the office forgot this was suppose to be a mmorpg, not a mmofps. Damage, one shot skills, conditions applications and sources have all increased, health stayed the same but boons and other defense skills like evade and invulnerability are suppose to compensate, only not every class has equal access to those. We need middle ground, not extremes for balance.

Soo many broken builds (not a lot of balance). People always say that people just need to L2P and that it takes tons of setup to pull off the insta-kills, but that just isn't true. Mesmer and thief in particular have stupid easy less than 1 second kill combos. Even with the change to malice, my deadeye is still hitting people for 20-30k is no problem.It's not like most classes can run away after I mark them, and if you are within 240 radius, there is literally no tell on death's judgement (I just wait for people to dodge before I shoot, but still a valid point).

The power creep has gotten a little out of hand.

@Kilrik.6320 said:Or what I mean to say is I'm growing weary of insta-deaths in WvW. It's starting to play like a first person shooter with certain current builds. Get blown up within 2 seconds respawn, head to an objective, get them instantly or get yourself decimated again.

I remember Golden Eye one shot kills (Golden Gun) and it was fun to play occasionally, but most of the time we didn't opt for that ruleset.

@Ubi.4136 said:Soo many broken builds (not a lot of balance). People always say that people just need to L2P and that it takes tons of setup to pull off the insta-kills, but that just isn't true.

along with the power creep especially active defenses like dogge, blind, block , protection uptime etc got all alot stronger so it got more important to use them correct and yes you can in theory avoid most 1shots. so yes it is a 'l2p' issue but the game, especially WvW is catering alot to a low skill floor with promoting AoE spamm of offensive and defensive abilities. with not having to think or react most of the time in WvW, most people are unable to react when they then encouter someone with the ability to oneshot so it kinda doesnt fit into this brainless mode.

Mesmer and thief in particular have stupid easy less than 1 second kill combos. Even with the change to malice, my deadeye is still hitting people for 20-30k is no problem.

deadeye damage was not changed with the 'malice change' so yes i did hit up to over 46k before and still am able to under same conditions. but i have killed alot of people n daredevil in less then 1 second before without a tell, just with Backstab + quickness AA.with that 18second tell if you dont attack till that oneshot i dont think its such a fast kill from deadeye.

It's not like most classes can run away after I mark them, and if you are within 240 radius, there is literally no tell on death's judgement (I just wait for people to dodge before I shoot, but still a valid point).

there is still an audio tell for max malice and people will expect when you mark them and stealth camp till malice is up that you will come out with DJ. so poping up in melee range will still often trigger an evade.you can also shoot on higher range without laser if you want with action cam and no target, but the chances you will miss is high.if you dont camp stealth but fight visible then most builds you encounter solo will have a good chance to kill you before your malice is up, but you will have higher chance to land the DJ when you use it. i mostly also hit some bullets before malice is up if i can risk it, just to increase the chance, that my opponent wont avoid DJ.

The power creep has gotten a little out of hand.

true.

@"Kilrik.6320" said:Or what I mean to say is I'm growing weary of insta-deaths in WvW. It's starting to play like a first person shooter with certain current builds. Get blown up within 2 seconds respawn, head to an objective, get them instantly or get yourself decimated again. People who are proponents of these builds will argue "git gud" or "l2p" which is about as helpful or substantial an argument as saying "because." I use these builds on occasion, but I don't particularly enjoy them. Ganking someone gives rewards and a devilish sort of satisfaction, especially when you gank a ganker whose been picking off people at spawn. It's not a particularly healthy gameplay style for an mmo in my opinion, since they are designed to retain players who will typically invest hours of time over months or even years to play them. I generally like first person shooter games, but I usually don't play them for more than an hour. The continual death respawn frequency becomes tedious. In mmos, building up characters, armor and skills to survive and retaliate is part of the craft.

Through the years, I suppose thief has been a regular at this and the main scapegoat, but I don't just mean thief, any profession/build whether condi or power that can down a player that is not full glass in a single move/combo is not healthy to the mmo playstyle. I am not promoting the bunker years where a fight would last for 20 minutes or more, but in an mmo there should be more than, "is there someone behi...."> DEAD, or "the mesmer entered stealth, one one thousand, two one thousand, dodge ro....>DEAD. This works for a first person shooter, but not an mmo in my opinion. Anet might be backed into a corner for balance with the introduction of elite specs. I don't know how to fix it. Balancing numbers for skills is always a start, but skills synergy is definitely harder to balance.

I know I'm not the only one who has spoken out against the "power creep," but perhaps I am feeling the vanilla wow nostalgia syndrome or as the game was right before HoT. What do you think? Please no kitten sarcasm.

I hear and understand exactly what you are saying, and I am like minded. MMORPGs need and should have more tactical combat then MOBAs and FPS games. And I also think A-Net shot themselves in the foot with the powercreep, especially the large group powercreep as well as the small. The balanace is very hard to achieve for this with the current set of elite specs, passives, giant DPS spikes across the board etc. and you can't really remove those because then you'll end up with perma bunker syndrome, kinda like it was when perma boon sharing 1st came out.

I think the biggest culprit here that started it all is when they removed stats from trait lines and made them gear only, while simoultaneously added too many passives to traits. Before then, things were somewhat balanced via rock / paper / scissors method, as you had to stack either one way or another to achieve full effectiveness, or be spread in middle but not having top tank or top DPS making hybrid builds more viable and interesting. So thats the 1st change they would need to make.2nd change would be to simply lower all DPS application across the board, both power and condi.3rd would be to scale down the passives. Increase timers on passive procs, lower some of the static trait effects, etc.

Make hitpoints and armor matter more then they do right now.

I dislike the almost one shotting. It's who hits their rotation faster almost.

Overall damage needs to be toned down. Or there's no strategy. .It's all about speed. And that's really not fun to me.

We warned Anet during gw2 beta that the is headed into becoming a fps game. 6 years later; did Anet too our constructive criticism and our suggestions?

Absolutely Not!!

Here is the Truth; Toxicity is what they want for the game.

(I must stay this; Accept the truth- the way Anet intend it to be or move on to gw2 competitors who takes action against Toxicity)

If you are truly tired of Anet Toxicity in the game; the second option would be the healthy choice

GL

I hate fps. This is not FPS.

But like most things in life, your journey to proficiency starts with 1,000 faceplants.

As long as you’re learning what you’re doing wrong that gets you killed, it won’t take long to get your skills up.

The problem with the "L2P" and "Git Gud" crowd is not that they are wrong but massively impressed with themselves. If everyone got good and learrned to play on their level or better they would simply leave because feeling superior is a mainstay to that personality type. MMOs by design encompass all playstyles and all kinds of players which is why or how they flourish. Design and balance need to take all players into account. The current meta are too easy for skilled players and too hard for most casual. More across the board skill balance should be looked at so that there is more variety.

Merry Christmas.

There are a lot of L2P issues running around in wvw. The problem is that people always say git gud /L2P, but the problem is more than that.There are places on every wvw map that I can sit as daredevil, you will never see me or see me coming, and than backstab, impact strike chain and your dead.No amount of L2P is going to counter that. Opening hit you are downed (95%) of the time, and downed skills/friends are useless cause finishing blow.That is what we are stuck with for balance. I can do the same thing with power chrono/mirage. I will be shattering and you are downed before you knew I was around.

If you are havng problems, ask for help. some will guide you. not all in gw2 are trolls. some are really helpful.

@"Ubi.4136" said:Soo many broken builds (not a lot of balance). People always say that people just need to L2P and that it takes tons of setup to pull off the insta-kills, but that just isn't true. Mesmer and thief in particular have stupid easy less than 1 second kill combos. Even with the change to malice, my deadeye is still hitting people for 20-30k is no problem.It's not like most classes can run away after I mark them, and if you are within 240 radius, there is literally no tell on death's judgement (I just wait for people to dodge before I shoot, but still a valid point).

The power creep has gotten a little out of hand.

Right now there are tons of unbalanced play in wow because to be competitive, people have been forced into classes or builds they dont want to play because of the first round of nerfs that pushed support for the expansion pack they just released. Take reaper for example... i loved my tanky condi reaper.. but because of the 67% shroud drain nerf, i was forced into playing scourge.. now that im good at it.. i know another nerf is coming because we are pretty tanky still.. Warriors were all but non existant until the expansion.. now there are a ton of em throwing HUGE bubbles on the field which just completely kills all combat and brings the game to a stand still. You know that the bubble is getting nerfed soon.. its too big and shuts down far too much damage... chain 6-8 of them like mag/bg etc does and you can wipe an entire field of enemies with zero skill. Mesmer is basically unkillable now as well 1 on 1 and in groups with gravity well and bubble... they dominate the meta. They nerfed the heck out of condi, knowing that it wasnt single stack condi that was the problem it was the sheer fact that over half of the zerg ran condi and even with the nerfs to scourge etc, you still die in 1 second to condi damage from the sheer number of people stacking dots on you. The people that completely quit condi all went glass rev for the 17k and 31 k hammers to the face at range... yet.. everything is working as intended.. while we still have people flying around the map, walking through walls and some who are completely unhittable (obstructed/invulnerable/out of range) when they are standing right in front of you hacking.

The point is.. its not that the game has become a first person shooter.. its the fact that the changes that anet made were not very well thought through and those who didnt leave because of them (and a lot did actually) is that those who embraced them, found a way to circumvent most of not all of what anet was trying to do. I have seen entire zergs that since the condi nerf swapped from throwing every condition imaginable on you.. to entire zergs that now only stack burning... Instantly you will get 60+ stacks of burning when you engage them simply because of all the FB guards, dhuumm fire necros, burn engies etc.

Things that need fixed because they are killing the game

Spellbreaker bubbles = far to large and block too much damage .. When chained in settings like wvw, they can shut down entire 50-80 man zergs. 8-10 spellbreaker bubbles side by side from SMC to green keep one night in EB... and 1/4 of the entire map was completely unplayable in.

1 shot mesmer builds = Tank classes with 3000+ toughness and 32k HP should NEVER be able to be taken down in 1 second by any glass caster class.. Mesmers can now blow up any target with any amount of health, spike, stealth and run away without taking any damage.

Necro only has one viable spec now.. scourge.. becuase they were forced into it with the reaper shroud nerf. Giving back shroud to necro and making other builds viable would solve the problem with condi stacking since not everyone would choose to play that spec.

Elementalists need more health period since most of their skills have some of the longest cast times in the game, compared to other glass classes like mesmer with their instant cast and instant shatter clone builds. You should be able to make a tank or front line elementalist since all they have is a roamer spec and heal staff spec in the current meta.

There are a ton more.. but you get the idea... there is a million and one things wrong with the game... not to mention the bugs/hacks that you see around every day.. but anet doesnt seem to want to focus on the important things... they just want to pander to the people who cry "i got killed by 60 stacks of condi on me!!" Well of course you did... if everyone is forced to play condi and a stacking condi class... of course your going to die to the stacks if 30 out of a 50 man zerg is running it... DUH

All that was needed was WvW being split off from PvE as they did with PvP. Then balancing can take effect. But at the current state, forget it. You can't lower any damage overall because then those PvE'rs start crying they got their lollipops stolen. WvW got to a point where the only healthy solution is to split it from PvE and balance it on it's own.

@Tongku.5326 said:

@"Kilrik.6320" said:Or what I mean to say is I'm growing weary of insta-deaths in WvW. It's starting to play like a first person shooter with certain current builds. Get blown up within 2 seconds respawn, head to an objective, get them instantly or get yourself decimated again. People who are proponents of these builds will argue "git gud" or "l2p" which is about as helpful or substantial an argument as saying "because." I use these builds on occasion, but I don't particularly enjoy them. Ganking someone gives rewards and a devilish sort of satisfaction, especially when you gank a ganker whose been picking off people at spawn. It's not a particularly healthy gameplay style for an mmo in my opinion, since they are designed to retain players who will typically invest hours of time over months or even years to play them. I generally like first person shooter games, but I usually don't play them for more than an hour. The continual death respawn frequency becomes tedious. In mmos, building up characters, armor and skills to survive and retaliate is part of the craft.

Through the years, I suppose thief has been a regular at this and the main scapegoat, but I don't just mean thief, any profession/build whether condi or power that can down a player that is not full glass in a single move/combo is not healthy to the mmo playstyle. I am not promoting the bunker years where a fight would last for 20 minutes or more, but in an mmo there should be more than, "is there someone behi...."> DEAD, or "the mesmer entered stealth, one one thousand, two one thousand, dodge ro....>DEAD. This works for a first person shooter, but not an mmo in my opinion. Anet might be backed into a corner for balance with the introduction of elite specs. I don't know how to fix it. Balancing numbers for skills is always a start, but skills synergy is definitely harder to balance.

I know I'm not the only one who has spoken out against the "power creep," but perhaps I am feeling the vanilla wow nostalgia syndrome or as the game was right before HoT. What do you think? Please no kitten sarcasm.

Bolded the core thing. The powercreep isn't a character centric issue. Just have a look on what PvE has to offer as encounters : mobs with endless HP pools, hitting like trucks. To me, this is the core reason why the powercreep and passives came : to match mobs' own powercreep.

And this is where we are now in WvW : having a skillset designed to be used against enemys with hundreads of thousands (if not millions) HP, while the average WvWer runs with... what ? 20k ?

I thought this thread was going to be about rifle/pistol-pistol deadeyes for maximum pew-pew...guess I was half right..:P

Good post. gave u a +1 and I agree wvw was better before the HOT changes.

Baby pls don't talk about first person shooter unless you at least mention aim. Like 360noscopeheadshot kind of aim. Perhaps you can make it so daredevils need to full zoom in and aim their shot to make damage to balance them rofl.

I like those 1 shot builds, what no one ever mentions when they die though is that they were also running a glass build.

You can't one shot the dire builds or any build involving vitality and toughness, and there's a lot of those builds too. When I think of power creep, I think of a Meditation heals Firebrand burst build. Seen a few of them lately, not a lot you can do against em either. Insane burst damage combined with insane burst heals, aegis spam and boon spam, reflects and every other utility under the sun.

@kiwituatara.6053 said:

1. Need to increase diminishing returns for >2500 Power OR reduce Ferocity scaling.
2. Remove Trailblazer/Dire stat from game (treat them like the old magic-find gear; let players re-select those stats to something else).

Number 2 has my vote. That junk is absurd.

@sephiroth.4217 said:I like those 1 shot builds, what no one ever mentions when they die though is that they were also running a glass build.

You can't one shot the dire builds or any build involving vitality and toughness, and there's a lot of those builds too. When I think of power creep, I think of a Meditation heals Firebrand burst build. Seen a few of them lately, not a lot you can do against em either. Insane burst damage combined with insane burst heals, aegis spam and boon spam, reflects and every other utility under the sun.

From experience, mesmers, eles, rangers can kill minstrel guardian in split seconds. Been on both the giving and receiving end of this.

I think Toughness scales really badly compared to Power. If you can reach 3000+ power, you pretty much ignore Toughness and just shred through their health.

@kiwituatara.6053 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:I like those 1 shot builds, what no one ever mentions when they die though is that they were also running a glass build.

You can't one shot the dire builds or any build involving vitality and toughness, and there's a lot of those builds too. When I think of power creep, I think of a Meditation heals Firebrand burst build. Seen a few of them lately, not a lot you can do against em either. Insane burst damage combined with insane burst heals, aegis spam and boon spam, reflects and every other utility under the sun.

I wasn't talking about minstrel guardians lmao they don't have insane burst damage from what I know, I was thinking of the Crusader/Zealot/valk mixture. (power/precision/ferocity/vitality/toughness/healing power, focusing mostly on power/precision/healing)