PvP/WvW Skill Split Release - Page 7 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

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  • Urejt.5648Urejt.5648 Member ✭✭✭

    As a rifle thief, i like sd/dp nerf. However i don't like shawdow shot dmg being increased by +36% and that there are no deadeye changes.

    Shawdow shot will be way too imba with the +36% buff. It will probably deal more dmg than backstab.

    Recently anet changed mark so malice stacks stay on target longer than mark recharges. It was interesting experiment, however it made all deadeye's grandmaster traits useless:

    • passive grand master trait boons for max malice stacks) never triggers twice in fight that can last 3 min
    • Also healing for max malice stacks gm trait never triggers twice in fight
    • second gm trait - quickness on mark is also very poor value. It must be rethinked!

    rifle is garbage since stealth on dodge nerf
    ~~* SEASON XII - TOP 12 EU RIFLE GOD! updated

  • While i agree that Mesmer's burst is overtuned, i also have to note how the majority of people complaining about it have clearly never bothered playing it and are just mad because they got "one shot" "out of nowhere" with "no counterplay", simply because they have no idea what is even hitting them. Which is just plain wrong and the fault of each respective player themselves. Even if Anet were to tone down the numbers, you'd still get killed in the blink of an eye, just like before. Heck, even if Anet would tone it down so much that you'd actually need to pull off 2 bursts to kill someone, you'd still fight a pointless fight and you'd still complain.

  • The reason I got back to this game is because of druid and firebrand, both full support classes, cause you know some of us enjoy this type of gameplay. Now, instead of making other classes viable for full support style, you keep nerfing the only class that was good at it?

  • Tomahawk.7361Tomahawk.7361 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    Regardless of what you decide anet, you should really stop trying to balance new elites by nerfing or over-adjusting core traits, core traits that many older and consistently balanced classes have used for years. It further widens the gaps between HoT and PoF builds, let alone core builds which, save a few exceptions, are completely dead. If you wish to promote proper diversity and play equality to all the builds that are out there from previous expansions and content, then you should focus more on balancing primarily from new elite skills/utilities/traits. My close friend no longer plays anymore because your nerfs to warrior core to balance spellbreaker killed off rifle warrior.

    PS - please revisit condi mirage, this roaming class is completely and utterly unpunishable, I can mash my buttons on it aimlessly and win most 1v1 battles

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2018

    I like the changes overall. They certainly hit in all the right places.
    But they don't address the most important problem in WvW.

    I doubt that these changes will make a difference in WvW. They won't change the meta and we're in desperate need of a change. Here's why:
    One of your main goals in this update is build diversity. Build diversity in WvW doesn't only depend on the balance of builds itself but also on the current meta game. For example the ranged focus of zergs we see currently pushes all melee focused builds out of the game (except for spellbreaker somewhat). Even more importantly: The pirate ship isn't very fun for anyone.

    So it is important to also look into ways to reduce the effectiveness of the profession that dictates the play style in large scale right now: SCOURGE
    In an optimal zerg setup you currently bring 2+ Scourges per party, because stacking them is so powerful. Scourge offers everything you need in WvW:

    • Good damage in condi, power or hybrid setups with bursts of conditions which easily hit for 3k dps per scourge, reapplied every few seconds.
    • Easily enough boon corrupts to deal with its one counter: Resistance. Especially so when stacking enough scourges.
    • Very sturdy build (especially in dire / trailblazer) and outstanding support (in celestial). Even more so when stacked.
    • A huge amount of soft CC: Cripple, cripple, cripple and immobilize from corrupting resistance !!!
    • Range of 900. A radius of 300 !!!
    • This is the most insane of all: In close range shade skills hit up to !!! 10 targets !!!
      In fact I'd say the main reason why you currently push in zerg fights is to profit from the increased target limit of your Scourges.

    In my opinion the target limit of 10 is what simply is too much. It destroys all hope of boarding the pirateship. You'll just get blown up when you come too close.

    tldr: Scourge is the biggest balancing problem in WvW. It is still incredibly overpowered and will continue to be so even with these changes. You will need to take a look at what makes it this dominant and meta defining in WvW large scale fights specifically.

    My suggestion: Remove the number of targets increase on Sand Savant. At 3 per shade it will still hit up to 6 targets in close range. It'd be a fair change.

    Edit: Just thought of something. Maybe you could reduce the number of targets of only the offensive effects and not the target limit on the support part of shade skills. And then while at it reduce the shade radius with Sand Savant to 240.

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the direction of introducing more competitive game mode skill splits.

    Please use that skill split approach for more small PvP/WvW skill changes when they occur outside of the regular big balancing patch cycle in future.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I like the changes overall. They certainly hit in all the right places but the most important one.

    I doubt that these changes will make a difference in WvW. They won't change the meta and we're in desperate need of a change. Here's why:
    One of your main goals in this update is build diversity. Build diversity in WvW doesn't only depend on the balance of builds itself but also on the current meta game. For example the ranged focus of zergs we see currently pushes all melee focused builds out of the game (except for spellbreaker somewhat). Even more importantly: The pirate ship isn't very fun for anyone.

    So it is important to also look into ways to reduce the effectiveness of the profession that dictates the play style in large scale right now: SCOURGE

    • In an optimal zerg setup you currently bring 2+ Scourges per party, because stacking them is so powerful. Scourge offers everything you need in WvW:
    • Good damage in condi, power or hybrid setups with bursts of conditions which easily hit for 3k dps per scourge every few seconds.
    • Easily enough boon corrupts to deal with its one counter: Resistance. Especially so when stacking enough scourges.
    • Very sturdy build (especially with dire / trailblazer) and outstanding support (in celestial). Even more so when stacked.
    • A huge amount of soft CC: Cripple, cripple, cripple and immobilize from corrupting resistance !!!
    • Range of 1200. A radius of 300 !!!
    • This is the most insane of all: In close range shade skills hit up to !!! 10 targets !!!
      In fact I'd say the main reason why you currently push in zerg fights is to profit from the increased target limit of your Scourges.

    In my opinion the target limit of 10 is what simply is too much. It destroys all hope of boarding the pirateship. You'll just get blown up when you come too close.

    tldr: Scourge is the biggest balancing problem in WvW. It is still incredibly overpowered and will continue to be so even with these changes. You will need to take a look at what makes it this dominant and meta defining in WvW large scale fights specifically.

    My suggestion: Remove the number of targets increase on Sand Savant. At 3 per shade it will still hit up to 6 targets in close range. It'd be a fair change.

    Better idea: remove the radius increase on Sand Savant so the shades cover far less of the battlefield. Also means the shades don't completely cover a capture point in PvP.

    Even if it still allowed the Scourge to hit 5 targets/shade, good luck actually getting 5 targets in a 180 radius.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    oh no Mesmer nerfs and NEW huge Ele buffs, so Devs are starting to play Eles and mesmers again and nerf everything else? And pls nerf more guardian and firebrand so I can finally switch and abuse eles and mesmers.

    Funny thing...you can buff spirit weapons 100x times and no one will ever use it.

    You better buff hammer and his AA, mace,scepter projectile speed, than this "never will be used" skills.

  • Torqiseknite.1380Torqiseknite.1380 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:

    Warrior

    Some impactful splits, several of these changes should probably be made game-wide (frenzy, battle standard, rampage, and shake it off) since they affect skills that haven't been meta anywhere for a while. In fact this might be a good time to finally standardize mending as a physical skill with base 20 second cooldown

    Revenant

    Less significant changes here, though the hammer 2 nerfs are probably noticeable for large scale wvw fights. I guess rev's issues warrant some sort of redesign that would lay outside the scope of this proposed patch. The change to soothing stone seems good, perhaps cleansing channel could also be updated to clear 2 conditions instead of 1?

    Guardian

    I doubt it's necessary to continue nerfing firebrand at this point. The updates to signet of resolve and spirit weapons could also be made game wide.

    Thief

    D/p changes seem good in theory, pushing thief away from spamming autoattack and giving it a reason to use the 2 and 3 skills again. I don't think the nerf to roll for initiative was necessarily warranted, but maybe we'll see more s/d thieves running infiltrator's signet now.

    Ranger

    The druid nerfs were probably needed given all the other changes in this patch, but is it ever going to be able to fulfill a supportive role as originally designed? Signet of stone update is interesting, I think the new version might actually be stronger in some cases. The axe changes could be universalized also.

    Engineer

    Major nerfs to meta holosmith, I think the minesweeper/vent exhaust split might finally kill off the explosives build as far as pvp is concerned. Not sure that I like the change to crystal configuration: eclipse, maybe it would've been better to make it 1 stack of stability for 5 seconds in pvp/wvw without the hit requirement.

    Elementalist

    Minor changes on ele, glyph of renewal really needs to not have a 3+ second cast time if it's ever going to be viable. Maybe now shatterstone will actually deal damage on the rare occasion that it actually hits anything. Tornado split game wide etc

    Mesmer

    Very narrow mesmer changes, but they are pretty reasonable ones as far as I can tell. Maybe some of the phantasms could be split as well, a defensive one like phantasmal avenger probably shouldn't be critting upwards of 6k

    Necromancer

    More scourge nerfs? As with firebrand I think the first half of these splits are overkill. Buffs to wells seem interesting, well of blood/spectral grasp changes could be universalized.

  • rank eleven monk.9502rank eleven monk.9502 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    Very interesting. Lot of heavy nerfs there, but seems to be consistent among most classes.

    One note though, as a (mainly) mesmer player it seems like mesmer is not getting enough attention compared to other meta builds (read: all meta builds are heavy nerfed while mesmer is only getting very slight nerfs). Right now it feels that will create some unbalance - but it really depends on the buffs to other builds

    Elusive Mind nerf is problematic though

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I like the changes overall. They certainly hit in all the right places.
    But they don't address the most important problem in WvW.

    I doubt that these changes will make a difference in WvW. They won't change the meta and we're in desperate need of a change. Here's why:
    One of your main goals in this update is build diversity. Build diversity in WvW doesn't only depend on the balance of builds itself but also on the current meta game. For example the ranged focus of zergs we see currently pushes all melee focused builds out of the game (except for spellbreaker somewhat). Even more importantly: The pirate ship isn't very fun for anyone.

    So it is important to also look into ways to reduce the effectiveness of the profession that dictates the play style in large scale right now: SCOURGE
    In an optimal zerg setup you currently bring 2+ Scourges per party, because stacking them is so powerful. Scourge offers everything you need in WvW:

    • Good damage in condi, power or hybrid setups with bursts of conditions which easily hit for 3k dps per scourge every few seconds.
    • Easily enough boon corrupts to deal with its one counter: Resistance. Especially so when stacking enough scourges.
    • Very sturdy build (especially in dire / trailblazer) and outstanding support (in celestial). Even more so when stacked.
    • A huge amount of soft CC: Cripple, cripple, cripple and immobilize from corrupting resistance !!!
    • Range of 900. A radius of 300 !!!
    • This is the most insane of all: In close range shade skills hit up to !!! 10 targets !!!
      In fact I'd say the main reason why you currently push in zerg fights is to profit from the increased target limit of your Scourges.

    In my opinion the target limit of 10 is what simply is too much. It destroys all hope of boarding the pirateship. You'll just get blown up when you come too close.

    tldr: Scourge is the biggest balancing problem in WvW. It is still incredibly overpowered and will continue to be so even with these changes. You will need to take a look at what makes it this dominant and meta defining in WvW large scale fights specifically.

    My suggestion: Remove the number of targets increase on Sand Savant. At 3 per shade it will still hit up to 6 targets in close range. It'd be a fair change.

    Better idea: remove the radius increase on Sand Savant so the shades cover far less of the battlefield. Also means the shades don't completely cover a capture point in PvP.

    Even if it still allowed the Scourge to hit 5 targets/shade, good luck actually getting 5 targets in a 180 radius.

    Can't argue with that. The big radius is very annoying indeed.

    But I still think it's more important that the number of targets goes down. If they did that they fixed the WvW specific issue with the spec and can go from there.

  • Resistance into imob is fine.

    What you should be complaining about is the frequency of corrupts themselves or the kits going along with it.

    The solution to having your boons stripped into condis should not be using a boon to ignore the condis. Fighting fire with fire is a bad idea when it comes to increasing variety and if you base your survival on a boon then when going up against something specializing in corrupting that it should fall flat on its face. Resistance already shuts down non strip condi builds utterly, its should not be the be all end all condi build soloution. On the other hand a build specializing in removing/corrupting boons into condis should not be dealing the same amount of damage as the non corrupt builds, and should have to rely to a great extent on corruptions to get anything done. Problem right now is that corrupts have been sprinkled on some kits like afterthought candy, instead of like the good old prenerf corrupt boon where a single impact skill could corrupt all your boon in one blow without any further bells and whistles.

    I think having some kind of symmetry of powerful boon-> powerful condi, and remember vice versa, is good. It also means that condi conversion builds can turn immobilization into something stronger than 3 sec of swiftness.

    -Purity of Purpose-
    P.S. You know, expert examination has worked this way since HOT release. You just updated the description.

    Also super speed does not stack, it overwrites. 5s + 1s=1s.

  • All you can really do with these proposed changes is look at them relative to other classes changes. And the final effect of all the changes combined might have very different results than we might be able to gauge right now, so its hard to tell when something gets nerfed too hard or too little.

    As a ranger main Ill focus on the ranger part of these proposed changes
    First off, I agree with most of the nerfs to passives across the board.
    What I disagree with is the nerf to Celestial Avatar Cooldown and the might generation. Those I just really don't understand what you intend to go for. Shout warrior might already get buffs big enough to warrant serious consideration, with those nerfs druid will fall off HARD.

    Another gripe I have is that most professions get pretty substantial buffs, only ranger gets left untouched apart from inconsequential mh axe changes. As others have said on the ranger forum, the design of mainhand axe is just not one for pvp, so it would need to be doing op damage for it to become useable in pvp. Why not fix the issues people have been having wth soulbeast instead? mainhand dagger is SO lackluster, stances and stancesharing have so much potential but are just left being kinda meh.

    RiP [JFK] - Brothers o/ - Twitch/YouTube

  • Now this is some great work! Good take on passives and the surging really needed to go, even though removing it hits revenant the most. Let's just hope now mesmer is not really done with yet.

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    I have a lot of thoughts about this, but I'll cover 2 things:

    1. The thief changes are good. S/D thief has entered the meta, I'm playing it myself, and it's got the annoying evade spam of D/D condi thief but with much quicker kills and excessive shadowsteps. Limiting their access to initiative and putting passives on long cooldowns is exactly the way to go. It's a cool build and doesn't need to be nerfed more than what you've mentioned, but I think everything you're doing there is warranted. I would reconsider the autoattack nerfs though.
    2. Condi rev. Let's talk about Embrace the Darkness. Condi rev was the first build I ever played in sPvP, but I have abandoned it because of its lack of viability and inferiority to necro. The changes to Banish Enchantment and Pain Absorption are overdue, PA's energy cost has been too high from the beginning. I know "it shares resistance!!" sounds OP but come on, that can be immediately stripped or corrupted since resistance is prioritized. The skill isn't that strong when you realize how easily and quickly resistance is countered in this meta. S/D or scourge alone will wipe that boon in 2 seconds or less.

    What I think designers are missing is that in sPvP, condi rev is not a melee spec, it's a melee/midrange spec. Reasons why:
    * It lacks stance-like abilities to mitigate different types of damage. PA is close to Berserker Stance but the resistance is shorter, and PA has a casting time.
    * Rev has less health than warrior.
    * It does not have a mobile block, which allows safe kiting when under pressure.
    * It does not have a healing signet or Adrenal Health to passively pulse significant healing. Warrior can have both of those active at the same time btw.
    * My melee enemies (ex. Demolisher Spellbreaker) can apply damage much quicker than the elite can.
    * Since Rev doesn't have superspeed in Mallyx, frankly it's difficult to stay in melee even if you're chasing someone.
    *I have to stay in melee range for at least 5 seconds to do significant damage, all the while having my energy drained (leaving it unlikely that I can use PA if I get CCed or condibombed)

    ETD just does not fit the condi Mallyx playstyle. This skill isn't worth using for anything other than a cheap Demonic Defiance proc. An extra 5% boost to my stats means nothing to me because I literally can't use it in games without getting wrecked by the other team. Using ETD screams "I have no energy or common sense, focus me!" whereas my melee opponents should be thinking "Hey, let's wait this out." That's what we all do when we see Ghastly Breach, we wait it out, we don't outright ignore it because it's so weak. That's the reality of ETD currently.

    How you can fix it:
    * Make it instacast. This also allows us to use it defensively.
    * Cause it to strip a boon every second from nearby enemies, and replace the boon with a 2s single stack of burn. This CANNOT just be more torment or chill, condi rev already does 90% of its damage from high torment stacks. Literally a 1-condition clear and my "burst" is gone. It takes far too long to build significant stacks.
    * Radius should stay 240, don't want this to be oversized like Sand Savant shades.
    * Should not be unblockable, if someone wants to wait out this skill while my energy drains then that should be a choice they can make.
    * Only give stat boost to toughness and vitality.
    * Pulse superspeed (only to user not to allies).
    * Increase degen to -8. -9 or -10 will yet again result in this skill not being used, that much degen prohibits even cheap weapon skill use.
    * Give it a 10 second cooldown. That will force us to actually think hard about when to use it.

    Gaining a high-risk high-payout boonstrip is exactly what condi Mallyx needs. The Banish Enchantment buff is nice but the 2s confusion stacks are easily waited out.

  • resistance -> immob gotta go.

  • I'm loving what I'm reading here. Please keep up your good work! You might just make me a fanboy again.

    I'm especially happy with the Holosmith changes. I do not like at all what you have done to the Engineer since the June 23rd 2015 patch. Forcing melee specialisations (Scrapper then Holosmith) on what used to be a medium range profession took my enjoyment out of the profession and mostly the game. Even if this is not enough to bring my cherished Kit play back to PvP it goes in the right direction. Keep it up!

  • Hum, i try to explain my point of view.


    I just play engineer since the begining, and now with this, you will kill engi.
    In PvP i'm ok with most of the point, Engineer is very strong, but in WvW, nerf damage like this... It's very hard.
    In WvW, Engi is here for damage and crontrol.
    If you nerf damage, Holo become useless. I'm fear that nerf damage can't allow me to kill some war/scourge/weaver (tanky + heal/Tank/heal).
    So in place of FP in open WvW i'm just useless because i cant instant kill something and in WvW Roaming i can't duel...
    And, if you're a good player you can easy dodge holosmith's dps in WvW (not really quick animation)
    So ok for nerf damage, good option because it nerf some insta kill. But give engi some dps like reduce CD or something (i don't know what I just try something).

    The place in Guild Raid in WvW of the holosmith is FP, some 1 or 2 guys able to kill 1 or 2 guys... Why just nerf this classe all the time (like scrapper in HoT).
    Just some kid say OP sh**... And if you nerf like this Holosmith i will just can't roam with that.

    Obviously, for other classe, what i can say it's just you're going to kill supporting with more and more conditions build with lot of tankyness and dps.
    So broken meta. If you nerf damage, we are going to a Tanky meta again... So boring ( my point of vew).
    And why nerf some good things but up some thing useless like spirit weapon on guard? Seriously just do a big recast of this, beacouse it's just useless with more power or less CD it's the same, useless.

    So sorry for my bad english (OMG TRASH FRENCH SPEAKER) and have a good game.

  • I still don't get why passives are only bad for pvp. Splitting these changes between WvW and PvP seems a bit too much and will make future changes even more complicated.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warrior sustain really needs to get toned down. For a class with highest armor and health, it has too much mobility, sustain and damage. Why not just change its passive heals so their base value is lower, but increase the healing power contribution?

    Currently they dont sacrifice gear stats at all, but still have among highest sustain and defensive capabilities. And even if they go somewhat tankier, getting 25 might is stupidly easy.

    And speaking of 25 might, classes like warr, rev and engi, for example (there are probably others as well), shouldnt be able to get free might for just being in combat and/or pressing one button. Similar passive traits should get changed to improve active combat. There's no point of nerfing damage on skills if classes are maxed on might all the time.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:

    Thief

    Skills

    • Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
    • Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW

    Thief risk-reward ratio is going to be so out of wack if these changes go in. I hope the survivability aspect part of this is being looked into. The idea behind thief with autoattack chains is to apply pressure during fights, not hit with a wet noodle and pray you do enough damage to make a dent. Making Hide In Shadows a bit higher heal is a good start, but made me wonder.. Is 15% from Invigorating Precision even enough now that the Auto Attack is getting a damage nerf?

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • Thief - lol heartseeker buffs? Guess D/P thief will be meta yet again.

    Pretty big hit on AA chain though, which is good for pressuring certain classes in fights.

  • still think passive proccing traits that don't trigger through use of either a heal, dodge or elite (something in your control) need to just be removed and replaced with something new. but other than that these changes wont effect my build anyway so nerf away anet

  • Does the PvP/WvW skill split mean that you will be on the safe side to actually buff underperforming/unpopular classes in PvE without fear? Because certain classes have been hit so hard in PvE, simply because they excel spectacularly in WvW and/or PvP. It would also be a great idea if, in the patch notes, you split the changes for each class into PvP/WvW/PvE categories, to prevent confusion and allow players to find the changes for the game mode they are mostly interested in without having to read ALL the wall of text. This will also eliminate the need to type "in PvP only", "in WvW only" and "in PvE only" next to almost every change; it just feels redundant this way.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First of all, forgive me if this has all been said before but I'm not about to read 400 posts.

    Secondly, these changes look good for the most part. You could do a little more for Rev. Reduce casting time and energy cost of Rite of the Great Dwarf. And frankly, it would be great if the traited version gave group Stability as well, and not just for PvP/WvW. As a guardian main, I am willing to share my group Stab as rev might do some nice things with it. MH sword needs damage buffs. Staff needs more utility, the 4 skill could cleanse more with less casting time. (Staff 2 needs a rework but that's not within the scope of this patch)

    Druid and Firebrand changes look good from a PvP perspective. This coming from a guy that plays both. But honestly, removing Magi Amulet in addition to these changes is overkill. I don't use it on either class but I would still like to have it as an option. That trade-off from damage to sustain is healthy for this game. I don't want PvP to become just another DPS race. I'm also not fond of removing Surging Runes, just change what the t6 bonus does if that's considered the passive part of this rune. Make it an AoE daze or something.

  • O.O WHY?? Don't do it this to Druid pls. This will delete ranger to the game

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief damage overall should get nerfed more, you are nerfing quite a few defensive aspects among most professions, the thief damage is in no relationship to its mobility.

    The ele buffs are unneeded, Ele already is in a good spot with much flexibility.

    If you want a less "passive" kinda gameplay nerfing traits is just one aspect, the bigger aspect are boons. They are spilled and shared like candy, limiting the amount of skillfull application (because you pretty much have all the important boons all the time) and also the effect of each individual boon - if you can have a boon up 100% of the time you cant tune them "strong", if you reduce overall boonduration/stacks etc. by 75% and increase the effects of each individual boon accordingly, boon application skills and timing of these skills along cooldowns do matter. You can also tune down boon corrupt accordingly, giving these skills also more play because you cant spam them to remove anything, you can use them at specific times to counter specific boons. These frees up some skill / trait slots across all professions which can be filled with other aspects and ideas, further increasing build variety.

    That being said, many skills hit 5 targets but deal far above average damage / healing. I think you should focus on a bigger balance patch of rebalancing such skills - a skill hitting up to 5 targets should NEVER deal even half of the damage a similar skill with just 2 target would. Cleaving should be a choice - not something you get added on top when focusing a target. Main offender here is ele of course - to some parts also guardian albeit guardian skills typical have a higher skill cooldown compared to ele justifying the power to a certain degree. For the healing aspects i feel druid is ok (with the recent changes)

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Naeleen.7601 said:
    Does the PvP/WvW skill split mean that you will be on the safe side to actually buff underperforming/unpopular classes in PvE without fear? Because certain classes have been hit so hard in PvE, simply because they excel spectacularly in WvW and/or PvP.

    Like Guardian staff 1 skill range, or Daredevil staff auto attack chain damage nerf :(

  • In general I welcome these changes, there is currently way too many of everthing so a global damage nerfs and cooldowns increases sure should be healty for the game.

    I also got a suggestion for revenant's hammer in pvp. Could the nr4 -Field of the Mists skill be instant? The 3/4 sec feels really long and you can't really react with it to enemy spike dmg. The casting time is so long that a p/p thief takes half of your hp before you can cast it, ranger land almost full rapid fire before it casts, guardian hits you with true shot before you cast it. Like now the skill is almost useless, hammer is already in unpopular possition and this makes it even harder to use. The skill should be here to counter enemy spike dmg and not to randomly use it in hope the enemy won't notice and use their burst against the shield.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vermillion.4061 said:
    Desert Shroud: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW

    Basically destroys power scourge in WvW (Sure it's not played much but it's really fun and different)

    If your goal is to nerf condi or anything else look at another way instead of killing the diversity of scourge.

    Scourge is the best class in WvW by far. Killing it is the best way to make WvW fun again.

  • ...
    The current meta for WvW is Guardian/Necro/Spellbreaker and Druid was in a position where if you buffed celestial avatar to provide stab/resist/etc with celestial avatar skills (like guard does), it could actually be in the meta. But what do you do? Nerf it. This is total BS. I understand from a PVP perspective why this happened, but in WvW those changes just kicked Druid players in the nuts lmao. You want more diversity? Nerf Firebrand whilst simultaneously choosing a few healer classes like Druid/Tempest to buff.

  • Oh ANET. Thanks for killing roam style in wvw so you can cater to some of the population. Very sad day for us roamers. I know many people will stop playing for losing this style of WVW play. Good luck catering to the rest ANET.

  • Quintes.6943Quintes.6943 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    Ranger - Protective Ward cd nearly doubled to 30s.

    This is a Grandmaster Trait that shares a tier with no other usable skills. Invigorating bond's radius isnt big enough for any form of PVP, and Spirits die to a skill single hit, making Protective Ward the only choice. I reiterate that it is a Grandmaster Trait. Would you consider halving the length of the Weakness it applies instead? Or even reduce it to a single second? I understand you are trying to downplay passives here, but the whole point of a weak talent like Protective Ward at Grandmaster level is that it has a small enough cd to come in handy more than once a fight.

    Engi - Protection Injection cd is doubled.

    The synergy of this skill with AntiCorrosion Plating was helping to stop up the gap in condi clear after Compounding Chemicals was nerfed. Core and Scrapper dont have access to Holo's reliable passive cleanse Prismatic Convertor. Core engi since the nerf has struggled to deal with even lower tier condi classes. Would you consider buffing AntiCorrosion Plating in PVP+WVW to 2 condis removed per protection application? It still would not be good enough to take the place of Compounding Chemicals, but it would be something. Or maybe you could consider lowering the cd on Toss Elixir S in PVP? Or halving the effect and the CD of Elixir S? Or further reducing the CD of Shield skills in PVP for better access to the clease provided with the application of protection from Over Shield?

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deemo.6094 said:
    One major need was missed out in this post, The need for resistance to NOT be converted into immob.

    Actually.... i like the immob
    And we corrupt so few boons, that resistance never gets corrupted, while playing 1v1 or smallscale.
    I can see the issue in big zergfights doe. But i still think, if you get corrupted all your boons, you deserv to die, because you stood in enemy bomb.
    Or they just get new resistance and walk out.

    How long was the immob? Maybe they should change the duration.

    That conversion rlly is the smallest problem.

  • Thornum.8607Thornum.8607 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    While I have given up hope, maybe a dedicated discussion to skill splits between game modes is the right place to bring this to attention:

    People were happy with how PvE Confusion functioned before the recent changes. People are happy with how PvP/WvW Confusion functions now. Can these two things please coexist? As you mentioned, Confusion has a very low condition tick to indicate its presence and a high damage spike on skill use. You mention that suggestions should focus on number balance changes only, not skill changes. Why not make PvE Confusion tick for a good amount, e.g. about 75%-90% of the intended damage, with a small damage boost on skill use (I do not care about its competitiveness, balance it every way you want, but at least make it usable again). The functionality compared to the other game modes would not change, but the damage balance would be such that people actually have a reason to use it in PvE.

    I am still very disappointed that Confusion got ruined on my Axe Mirage, and remain baffled at the need to make the current decision. You also have to realize that the change to Mirage Axe skills does not cover the full scope of what has been ruined by the Confusion change. If this is not something that is being considered, if there absolutely was a need to change it to its current form, please just tell us why.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ruwani.8624 said:
    ...
    The current meta for WvW is Guardian/Necro/Spellbreaker and Druid was in a position where if you buffed celestial avatar to provide stab/resist/etc with celestial avatar skills (like guard does), it could actually be in the meta. But what do you do? Nerf it. This is total BS. I understand from a PVP perspective why this happened, but in WvW those changes just kicked Druid players in the nuts lmao. You want more diversity? Nerf Firebrand whilst simultaneously choosing a few healer classes like Druid/Tempest to buff.

    The current meta is Guard/Scourge/Scourge/Scourge/Scourge/many more Scourge/Weaver/Hammer Rev/Spellbreaker/Chrono

    Druide is not good for zerg pvp because it has no weapon thats usefull there.
    At the same time Druide is broken op in roaming / 1 on 1 .
    It had to be nerfed there.

    The only way Druide would be good in zerg play is to give it a good range aoe weapon. Like Guard / Scourge / Ele / Rev have or crazy strong utility like Warrior / Chrono.

  • Deax.1572Deax.1572 Member ✭✭✭

    Do not agree with the Druid changes. It's not viable already in wvw outside from a few niche builds. These changes will only make more people skip on druid entirely in favor of Soul Beast.
    Seed of life change : keep the 3s CD but add another condition removed so total of 2.
    Solar beam change: It was bad already, poorly scaled with power, this makes it even worse for no good reason, this change brings nothing positive.
    Celestial avatar 20s cd change: in PvP sure, in Wvw it's punishing already a weak an unviable spec, this change brings nothing positive to wvw and encourages less people to use druid in wvw.
    Shared Anguish change: The trait doesn't offer much already, a simple daze from a mesmer or anything will proc it leaving the ranger exposed to other cc's. Suggestion to keep 90s of CD, but add 3s of stability (1stack) after the trait proc.

  • Obindo.6802Obindo.6802 Member ✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obindo.6802 said:
    Ur not fixing passives, ur making anything to with passives complete trash tier instead of fixing it.

    And how should they go about fixing them?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29890/ez-passives-fix#latest

  • FrouFrou.4958FrouFrou.4958 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    Ranger wise... Oh boy. I understand sustain is being nerfed here and druids have been a big problem in sPvP, but druids aren't really even a threat in WvW so these changes don't make much sense. Rangers are not even accepted in zerg squads, so perhaps split these changes between WvW and sPvP as well? MH axe buff is meaningless, that weapon is going to stay in the garbage tier as puny buffs like that won't change anything. Also nerfing staff autoattack is mindboggling to say the least? There aren't many devs playing ranger so I truly hope you guys are aware that the big numbers you see on your screen is not the actual numbers staff aa is doing per hit, it's accumulating like longbow rapid fire does?

    edit:
    Could you take a look at the ever growing soulbeast bug list? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/5067/soulbeast-list-of-bugged-non-functional-abilities-and-traits/p1
    Gaile mentioned this is a difficult bug to fix, but I thought I would remind you that the pet quickness bug is still there https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/569/pets-not-affected-by-quickness

    Froudo // Judge Legends [JDGE] // Seafarer's Rest

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dzeRnumbrd.6129 said:
    Necro feedback

    Personally I think the Scourge is close to being balanced, it doesn't require this heavy handed approach after the most recent nerfs haven't even had time to settle down.

    The changes you're going to make are really going to kill scourge and I will probably switch to a mesmer or a heavy class for WvW if you go ahead with these changes.

    The logic that nerfing scourge makes reaper and necro viable is simply not true. It simply makes people switch to a different archetype that does what they want.

    It's a real shame but this could be the end of necromancer being a meta profession in WvW - it has been a meta profession in WvW forever and this change is looking like it will kill it.

    I'm really disappointed with the changes proposed and I think the Areannet staff who decided this list must not play scourge extensively in WvW.

    Individual comments:

    Garish Pillar: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW

    I've never heard one complaint in WvW about this skill - if the problem is PvP then make it PvP only

    Desert Shroud: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW

    This is a 50% nerf guys - that's way too much. We're already feeling the huge impact of your recent nerfs.

    You haven't given the recent nerfs enough time to form a new judgment about where scourge sits.

    The problem you have here is you say scourge is a support class and yet you are nerfing barrier uptime by 50%!

    Too much sustain and too much support was a NEVER a complaint about scourge - the only complaints are damage - in particular boon corrupts.

    Due to the fact you combined sustain/support/damage into 1 skill (Desert Shroud), you have to nerfing our sustain
    by 50% (unnecessary) and our support by 50% (unnecessary) in order to nerf our damage (actual goal).

    I think 50% uptime nerf is way way over the top regardless (even if it was a damage only skill).

    I suggest you move the barrier granted on Desert Shroud onto Sand Cascade instead.

    That splits our support/sustain and damage skills apart and allows you to address those areas independently when balancing.

    So you can buff our sustain/support when you nerf our damage.

    So I suggest 7k of barrier on Sand Cascade and Desert Shroud grants no barrier - damage only.

    Ghastly Breach: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW

    This nerf has no point. Every fight is over (or at least decided) by the 75 second mark.

    If some scourge manages to pull a Breach out at 75s instead 90s and it turns a fight on its head then anyone who gets annoyed at that is not very smart.

    Plague Signet: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW

    I'm going to hazard a guess that this is a PvP nerf - I have no idea why it was put into WvW.

    Trail of Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW

    If anything I think this skill is massively UNDER powered, it needs more stacks of stability (3+) and far longer duration on swiftness (or it needs superspeed to replace swiftness).
    The only redeeming feature is the cooldown which you've now ruined.
    Whichever bad said this needed a nerf has no idea. In PvP you just don't stand on the red circles.
    It's pretty kitten easy to not get hit and the counterplay to this skill is ez mode.

    Signet of Undeath: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW

    Passive is too weak - I might use for 5 targets and fast cast time.

    Life Siphon: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
    Dark Pact: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW

    Dagger buffs are minimal and in the end they won't make any difference at all.

    Signet of Vampirism: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal from 3960 to 4950 (+25%) in PvP and WvW
    Well of Blood: Increased the base heal from 5240 to 6026 (+15%) in PvP and WvW. Increased the heal per pulse from 280 to 490 (+75%) in PvP and WvW

    Neither skill deals with conditions which is very important in WvW.
    Add a pulsing condition clear to Well of Blood and add some group utility for Signet of Vampirism.

    Spectral Grasp: Reduced the cooldown from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW

    Good change - I'll use this in certain circumstances but because it is a projectile I need trail of anguish before using it so I don't get pulled by projectile reflects.

    Blood is Power: Adjusted the Might granted from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW

    Still won't use it.

    Well of Suffering: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only. Increased the amount of Vulnerability applied per pulse from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only.

    Meh, it's OK i guess.

    Signet of the Locust: Increased the power coefficient from 0.65 to 1.0 (+54%) in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal per hit from 970 to 1455 (+50%) in PvP and WvW

    Meh, boring skill what about a stunbreaker and superspeed on activation. It's basically worthless and when I see necros running it in WvW I think "Trash necro".

    Traits
    Reaper's Protection: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
    Last Gasp: Increased the cooldown from 50 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only

    Boring.

    Overall this patch is: "Nerf scourge into the ground. Make useless buffs for Reaper and Necro that accomplish nothing".

    Nice. We basically said almost the same things, even doe i spoke more of a wvw perspective.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I like the changes overall. They certainly hit in all the right places.
    But they don't address the most important problem in WvW.

    I doubt that these changes will make a difference in WvW. They won't change the meta and we're in desperate need of a change. Here's why:
    One of your main goals in this update is build diversity. Build diversity in WvW doesn't only depend on the balance of builds itself but also on the current meta game. For example the ranged focus of zergs we see currently pushes all melee focused builds out of the game (except for spellbreaker somewhat). Even more importantly: The pirate ship isn't very fun for anyone.

    So it is important to also look into ways to reduce the effectiveness of the profession that dictates the play style in large scale right now: SCOURGE
    In an optimal zerg setup you currently bring 2+ Scourges per party, because stacking them is so powerful. Scourge offers everything you need in WvW:

    • Good damage in condi, power or hybrid setups with bursts of conditions which easily hit for 3k dps per scourge, reapplied every few seconds.
    • Easily enough boon corrupts to deal with its one counter: Resistance. Especially so when stacking enough scourges.
    • Very sturdy build (especially in dire / trailblazer) and outstanding support (in celestial). Even more so when stacked.
    • A huge amount of soft CC: Cripple, cripple, cripple and immobilize from corrupting resistance !!!
    • Range of 900. A radius of 300 !!!
    • This is the most insane of all: In close range shade skills hit up to !!! 10 targets !!!
      In fact I'd say the main reason why you currently push in zerg fights is to profit from the increased target limit of your Scourges.

    In my opinion the target limit of 10 is what simply is too much. It destroys all hope of boarding the pirateship. You'll just get blown up when you come too close.

    tldr: Scourge is the biggest balancing problem in WvW. It is still incredibly overpowered and will continue to be so even with these changes. You will need to take a look at what makes it this dominant and meta defining in WvW large scale fights specifically.

    My suggestion: Remove the number of targets increase on Sand Savant. At 3 per shade it will still hit up to 6 targets in close range. It'd be a fair change.

    Well i could also say, ball meta wasnt fun. It really was kitten annoying. Then i like pirate ship much more.

    And i dont think, that its only scourge dictating the meta.
    Hammer rev and staff ele are way too strong as well.
    They hit me with one skill (got 3.3k armor) for 7-8k dmg.
    Thats unreal and nowhere understandable.

    And necro isnt allowed to do: a corrupted boon, 1 stack burning, one stack torment and cripple?

    Thats way less dmg an can get healed way easier.

    Pls stop always hating necro. Dont only make necro players every patch change their playstyle. Other classes could change their playstyle as well.

    But i guess thats not going to happen. So necro players have to use the brains of the dead and the undead, to adapt and evolve our playstyle so other classes dont have to

  • The Ace.9105The Ace.9105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @MADPIEMAN.8023 said:
    Buff sword on weaver (dmg on actually used skills and making some skills easier to land) and buff tempest to compete other support specs like firebrand and chrono

    We feel that while the current state of sword weaver and tempest might be under performing a bit, they aren't too far from viability. Considering the changes we're planning for other classes, we feel that they may be in a pretty good spot after the release. We didn't want to buff them with this release just to have to nerf them later. We may be wrong, so we'll be keeping an eye on them after the release to see how they fared.

    I agree mostly on this except the range on sword skills and dual skills could be a bit longer cause now you almost have to stand on the enemy to hit the skill.

    What bugs me tho is that ele passive traits receive similar cooldown changes than other classes even when the passives on ele are quite lame compared to other classes passives.

    This is an example of few skills:

    Defy Pain on warrior with 2s invuln to damage + stunbreak, 90s cd,
    Stoneform on ranger with 2.5s invuln to damage + stunbreak, 90s cd,
    Self-Regulating Defences on engi with 3s invuln + stunbreak, 90s cd,
    Last Stand on warrior with crit immunity and pulsing 2 stability and pulsing swiftness for 2s + vigor from stances + stunbreak, stances get increased duration, 90s cd.

    VS

    Final Shielding on ele with 3 blocks for 5s + stunbreak, 90s cd,
    Earth's Embrace on ele with 6s of 10 stability and 6s protection + stunbreak, 90s cd,
    Gale Song on ele with aoe 5s superspeed + stunbreak, 90s cd.

    I understand the idea behind making the game less passive but the passive skills have a huge difference in pvp and there should be somekind of baseline on what a passive invuln trait should do and how it should be treated when looking at reducing cd and making adjustments. Ele doesn't have passive invuln traits and the only trait comparable gives 3 blocks for 5s. It feels pretty dumb to have a trait that only gives you 3 blocks every 90s while other classes are immune to damage and warrior gets nice buffs also.

  • • Infiltrator's Strike: Increased the power coefficient from .75 to .9 (+20%) in PvP and WvW
    They already are spamming Infiltrator’s strike in pvp and wvw I think to counter the increase you should Increase the initiative cost. That they are not rewarded to spam even more.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I like the changes overall. They certainly hit in all the right places.
    But they don't address the most important problem in WvW.

    I doubt that these changes will make a difference in WvW. They won't change the meta and we're in desperate need of a change. Here's why:
    One of your main goals in this update is build diversity. Build diversity in WvW doesn't only depend on the balance of builds itself but also on the current meta game. For example the ranged focus of zergs we see currently pushes all melee focused builds out of the game (except for spellbreaker somewhat). Even more importantly: The pirate ship isn't very fun for anyone.

    So it is important to also look into ways to reduce the effectiveness of the profession that dictates the play style in large scale right now: SCOURGE
    In an optimal zerg setup you currently bring 2+ Scourges per party, because stacking them is so powerful. Scourge offers everything you need in WvW:

    • Good damage in condi, power or hybrid setups with bursts of conditions which easily hit for 3k dps per scourge, reapplied every few seconds.
    • Easily enough boon corrupts to deal with its one counter: Resistance. Especially so when stacking enough scourges.
    • Very sturdy build (especially in dire / trailblazer) and outstanding support (in celestial). Even more so when stacked.
    • A huge amount of soft CC: Cripple, cripple, cripple and immobilize from corrupting resistance !!!
    • Range of 900. A radius of 300 !!!
    • This is the most insane of all: In close range shade skills hit up to !!! 10 targets !!!
      In fact I'd say the main reason why you currently push in zerg fights is to profit from the increased target limit of your Scourges.

    In my opinion the target limit of 10 is what simply is too much. It destroys all hope of boarding the pirateship. You'll just get blown up when you come too close.

    tldr: Scourge is the biggest balancing problem in WvW. It is still incredibly overpowered and will continue to be so even with these changes. You will need to take a look at what makes it this dominant and meta defining in WvW large scale fights specifically.

    My suggestion: Remove the number of targets increase on Sand Savant. At 3 per shade it will still hit up to 6 targets in close range. It'd be a fair change.

    Well i could also say, ball meta wasnt fun. It really was kitten annoying. Then i like pirate ship much more.

    And i dont think, that its only scourge dictating the meta.
    Hammer rev and staff ele are way too strong as well.
    They hit me with one skill (got 3.3k armor) for 7-8k dmg.
    Thats unreal and nowhere understandable.

    And necro isnt allowed to do: a corrupted boon, 1 stack burning, one stack torment and cripple?

    Thats way less dmg an can get healed way easier.

    Pls stop always hating necro. Dont only make necro players every patch change their playstyle. Other classes could change their playstyle as well.

    But i guess thats not going to happen. So necro players have to use the brains of the dead and the undead, to adapt and evolve our playstyle so other classes dont have to

    What are you talking about? Scourge right now is meta in PvP because it is an amazing dmg-support hybrid spec. In WvW it is even ridiculously overpowered.
    I'm sorry but I think nerfs are needed and you will need to adapt.

    It's my opinion that playing pirate ship is lame. But the current Scourge meta is objectively bad for build diversity because it hinders ALL melee builds from being played seriously (except Spellbreaker, as a boon strip bot mostly).
    But yes, hammer rev and weaver are too strong as well, I agree. It's a good thing CoR will be nerfed. On the other hand they are squishy builds. You just can't really push them in the current meta - again because of Scourges melee hate.

    Edit:

    Another thing hindering many builds from shining is the amount of projectile hate. Just as an example Valiant Bulwark on the Tome of Courage reflects projectiles for 5 sec on a 6 sec cooldown. The Firebrands just need to cycle their tomes accordingly and all ranged builds relying on projectiles are completely negated (except for the duration of their unblockable effect, obviously, if they have access to it).
    Projectile based builds were never that great in zerg play in the first place so I don't perceive this issue as equally bad as the one with Scourges, but I think the balance is still pretty off in that regard.
    Nonetheless Scourge is the main problem in my opinion, and the one thing that desperately needs to be changed.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    • When it comes to the passives, they should honestly just be removed rather than the cooldown increased. Now it just incentivizes that you burst them down quickly before the cooldown comes up again.

    • Buffing conditions is also a bad idea if nothing is done to make condition cleansing more predictable, as has been seen in the past. The only way to deal with a condi-heavy meta is just to add lots of small and spammy condition removals rather than being smart about when to use them. Perhaps conditions should be grouped according to the following categories; Debilitating Conditions (Immob, Blind, Cripple, Chill, Vulnerability, Fear, Taunt, Slow, Weakness) and Damaging Conditions (Bleed, Burn, Poison, Confusion, Torment). Allow skills and traits to remove conditions only from a certain category. This way condition removal at least becomes a little less random.

    // Yanim

  • @Dovkan.3519 said:
    As a WvW player, I agree with the majority of these changes. However, this doesn't address one of the biggest issues facing WvW right now, resistance converting to immobilize. It makes resistance a liability for groups due to the amount of corrupts. Resistance shouldn't convert into immob, it should convert into literally anything else.

    I would like to see a new condition lifting the effect of all boons during its duration on the target. Resistance can convert to that. :lol:

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obindo.6802 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obindo.6802 said:
    Ur not fixing passives, ur making anything to with passives complete trash tier instead of fixing it.

    And how should they go about fixing them?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29890/ez-passives-fix#latest

    Change to function which they cant do most likely. Instead rework the passive proc trait in all gamemodes and after than just play with numbers.

This discussion has been closed.
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