Hard mode for Raids

Link to reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8gpfac/the_game_have_never_been_better_and_still_i_play/dye2dsr/

Speaking for Raids, I will say this much: the reason we don't allow CM to be repeatable is because we don't want to splinter the player base. Two different play modes will send all of the "elite" players to CM, leaving "normal" mode as less desirable. I'm not happy with how we originally introduced CM, and I continue to not be happy with how we implement it. There has to be a better way.I am looking into options for a more appealing alternative. There are a few ideas, some of which that have been proposed by the community, but it takes time to not just hem and haw over the decision (and get approvals from the powers that be), but also to properly implement it. It's not as simple as changing a line of code and BAM, it's all changed and ready to ship. It's thousands of content objects, potentially custom code, scripts that all need to interact properly, then doing this across all of the existing content, and testing it to find and fix dem bugs.All that to say: we hear you on the Raid CM front, and we're exploring options.

I don't know why they didn't ask us on the official forums but here it is. Let's find a way to make CMs repeatable without splintering the player base.A few things that I want to say on the subject:

1) The current CM rewards should be one-time only because they are way too strong, the repeatable version should offer something different2) There shouldn't be any new / exclusive reward here, only achievement points and titles, the hard mode (repeatable Challenge Motes) should be about getting MORE rewards, not about getting different kinds of rewards not available elsewhere.

With that in mind I'm going to propose that in Hard Mode players no longer get Legendary Insights (and maybe even kill proof). Am I crazy? Hear me out first.If you add LI to the hard mode that's how you split the player base further, even more so if hard mode awards more LI than the normal version and there is a cap. By not having LI (and kill proof) as rewards in Hard Mode, there will be two types of players, those that go for the Legendary Armor will select the normal mode of the Raid, those that finished their Legendary Armor (one or all skins) will move on to the Hard Mode for the extra liquid rewards, extra shards, maybe better chances for ascended items and so on.That way the exclusive "drive" of the Raids will be the Legendary Armor, and will stay what you get in the normal version, all the regular achievements and most of the work for the Legendary Armor will happen in normal mode and keep the hard mode as the more "long term" reward option.

Thoughts? Ideas? Let's help the developers here.

One way they could help limit splintering of the Raid Community and have a repeatable Hardmode is to make hardmode access only available after a wing clear in that week? That may work or it might not and just add frustration to players wanting just to do the more challenging content

Simply removing the LI/kp part will not be sufficient IMO. The more hardcore crowd likely won't be interested in these anyway, as they likely already have all the armor sets they wanted. And the community will end up splintered.

It's tricky. How do you give a better incentive for the extra effort without making it the "go-to" choice?

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:One way they could help limit splintering of the Raid Community and have a repeatable Hardmode is to make hardmode access only available after a wing clear in that week? That may work or it might not and just add frustration to players wanting just to do the more challenging content

That will create a lot of anger, I'm pretty sure. Hard-gating challenging content behind the obligation to do its easy version has rarely been a good choice.

Currently, I cannot identify a way to make CMs repeatable without splintering the raiding community. In any way, before any attempt is made to make raid CMs repeatable, the devs should give it a lot of thought. And with a lot, I really mean a lot. In my raid experience, the "one difficulty for all" approach is still, by far, the best one.

What if the li and decoration reward for it was the same as the normal one, i.e. you either got your weely li/deco from that boss from hard mode or normal mode. Rewards are a bit tricky. Imo the food/util reward is fine, just swap the insignia/inscription with food recipies. This could be another way to get sweet and spicy butternut recipie. Or a 30 min version of it. You could even put those in an rng box that gives rare junk recipies.

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Currently, I cannot identify a way to make CMs repeatable without splintering the raiding community. In any way, before any attempt is made to make raid CMs repeatable, the devs should give it a lot of thought. And with a lot, I really mean a lot. In my raid experience, the "one difficulty for all" approach is still, by far, the best one.

Some people will play this hard mode so by definition there will be splintering, the objective is to mitigate that splintering in a way that it doesn't make normal mode pointless and at the same time keeps the number of players running normal mode at healthy levels.

That's why I suggested to give the two modes different goals, normal mode will be the only way to craft Legendary Armor and hard mode will be for more rewards once you get that armor. I understand that this doesn't solve everything because once players get their Armor there will be less incentive to continue in Normal Mode. But splitting the "goals" of the two modes is the best way to handle it in my opinion, now for a long term goal in normal mode I'm not exactly sure.

A question that is relevant here is "Why are people running Raids after they get their Legendary Armor?"

A few suggestions:

1) Hard mode can be only done if the whole wing is done in normal mode (once per account, not every week).
2a) Only bosses which dont have CM currently would have hard mode.
2b)CM=hard mode (except maybe KC which should have harder CM/HM).
3) Trio, escort and statues HM could be a bit more limited version of their respective achievements (no environmental weaps, timers) with additional adds and/or faster mechanics.

Additional rewards (weekly) compared to normal:

• Guaranteed mini
• At least 10g (less on event encounters)
• Increased ascended boss gear drop rate (named weapons, back pieces and similar), or keep the same drop rate, but with a chance to get 2 ascended items
• Maybe an increased shard limit by 50 (but this might be an overkill)

Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.And then there is the issue that most CMs are hardly more challenging than normal mode anyway. Only Deimos and Dhuum CM are currently noticeable harder than their normal counterpart.Desmina CM even feels easier than normal mode

The way I see it the challenge motes were probably supposed to be baseline and and the playtesters found them too difficult. So they were split into nm and cm. A grave mistake when you look at what w4 is like now.

@Malediktus.9250 said:Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.

You're underestimating LFG. Splintering means less players available and consequently - more time to get your group full and running. Which can take a while even now, as it is. You're thinking of statics as something static, but players do drop out or miss scheduled runs. We often fill our group with players who turn out to barely make the cut.

I don't know if a good solution exists. I think it is kinda neat how cm is something you only do a couple times, it keeps cm as a cherished memory of when you and your static overcame a difficult challenge. Repeatable rewards will inevitably lead to the cm reaching farm status, and sorta losing that special aspect.

@Malediktus.9250 said:Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.And then there is the issue that most CMs are hardly more challenging than normal mode anyway. Only Deimos and Dhuum CM are currently noticeable harder than their normal counterpart.Desmina CM even feels easier than normal mode

The way I see it the challenge motes were probably supposed to be baseline and and the playtesters found them too difficult. So they were split into nm and cm. A grave mistake when you look at what w4 is like now.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about whether sammy cm is harder, but imo sammy cm is way harder than regular sammy. Maybe roll makes the difference? I played chrono tank.

Samarog CM was hardest CM before they "fixed" (= nerfed) the split phase, now it is pretty easy. If the breakbar and enrage timer didnt exist you could easily duo it.

This is just about making CM worth to repeat, not new CMs as far as I know.

Anyway, they should encourage repeating the CMs but they should't give much. I would just give something like 10 or 15 extra magnetite shards per week and CM. But those eztra magnetites should be awarded only when the boss in normal mode has been beaten that week, so that if you only beat CM and not normal mode, you get the regular amount of magnetites.

@nia.4725 said:Anyway, they should encourage repeating the CMs but they should't give much. I would just give something like 10 or 15 extra magnetite shards per week and CM. But those eztra magnetites should be awarded only when the boss in normal mode has been beaten that week, so that if you only beat CM and not normal mode, you get the regular amount of magnetites.

That could easily lead to fatigue though, requiring to beat all bosses twice. Also be careful if doing that because teams in that case will beat the fastest bosses (then their CMs) and the rest of the bosses will become less and less played.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:Anyway, they should encourage repeating the CMs but they should't give much. I would just give something like 10 or 15 extra magnetite shards per week and CM. But those eztra magnetites should be awarded only when the boss in normal mode has been beaten that week, so that if you only beat CM and not normal mode, you get the regular amount of magnetites.

Maybe, but if we are rewarded twice just by doing the CM the normal mode of the boss will become depopulated. Less people will do normal mode, CM will be more populated, toxicity will increase will groups asking for CMkp or Demon's Demise and things like that.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.

The more people who acquire the armor would then potentially lead to less people in raids as well. The chasm would then grow and grow.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.

Didn’t realize how much of a problem this makes things. I apologize for my lack of understanding on these matters.

I do not think a weekly repeatable hard more with equal incentive for normal would work well.

Yeah it could work now fine now, but what about the future that there might be 10 wings and there is not enough time during the week to do both modes. That is where the problems would arise. Many veterans will choose the CMs only as the rewards from normal mode will not be relevant to them and you will have a split community and it would make it more difficult for new player to find veterans to play with to learn.

To be honest this issue can be easily solved by faster content delivery. If they can add wings with greater speed (let say at least one per six month) there will always be fresh content thus no need for hard mode. And if there are enough wings in-game, even if only normal mode, veteran players will be motivated to optimize their play as much as possible so that can finish all within the week, keeping normal mode challenging.

The only way for a hard mode to not split the community is if the game forced a specific wing for a week to be played on a hard mode only and that wing would shift weekly. That way you can keep things fresh and add challenge without splitting ppl. But it could never work currently. There are too few wings in game still. Forcing ppl that do not want a CM, out of a weekly clear with only 5 wings in game feels unfair. If there were 10 wings in game for example skipping one if you want to avoid the hard mode is much less of an issue.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.

But filling squads is generally fast unless you look for something very specific or ask for too many kp/title

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:Why would it be an issue if normal mode turns pointless for raid veterans? Those people do not raid with people who barely make the cut for normal mode raids anyway.

Yeah, my point is it would slow down. Depends on the way the splintering happens, obviously. If you somehow manage to give incentive that is primarily relevant to people running their own statics, then it shouldn't affect the pugging noticeably. But it's a tricky requirement to fulfill.

Make 1 CM per week!This week samarog cm will give a extra reward, next week dhuum cm will give a extra reward.Just make like that and every week people will do at least 1 cm, people that don't have the cm's done have a chance to find a group.Will still be hard coz most groups will only accept people with cm kill experience :/

But having 1 cm per week wont split up people too much, everyone will still do normal mode full clear.

I don't know if I will be doing cm at all. Each time when a new wing came, I have to switch to NA (from EU) to play CM. I hv done it once and thats it..If anet make CM repeatable, i hope there's no special drop from it bcos I will be missing out. Or I hope they make the mechanic friendly to high ping players.Wing 5 cm wasn't so bad (except dhuum cm)The others I forgot already.. I remember doing deimoss cm was painful at 400-600ping in the first week of wing just released. Maybe not that bad now .. well hv to try it again to know I guess.

@"Malediktus.9250" said:Samarog CM was hardest CM before they "fixed" (= nerfed) the split phase, now it is pretty easy. If the breakbar and enrage timer didnt exist you could easily duo it.

Yeah I done my samarog before they fix it.. and u know with high ping there is a problem if I get big red. The small red can never get to match me right bcis my location lock on their screen is different to my screen. I got my samarog done in NA.

@Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 said:Make 1 CM per week!This week samarog cm will give a extra reward, next week dhuum cm will give a extra reward.Just make like that and every week people will do at least 1 cm, people that don't have the cm's done have a chance to find a group.Will still be hard coz most groups will only accept people with cm kill experience :/

But having 1 cm per week wont split up people too much, everyone will still do normal mode full clear.

This could work.

Here is an interesting question, talking about "repeatable CMs" does it (and should it) include the achievements that make older Raid Bosses tougher? I'm talking about Sabetha's Last Cannon, Slothasor's Golden Slubling and so on. Or is it only about Wing 4 and Wing 5 -actual- CMs?

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Here is an interesting question, talking about "repeatable CMs" does it (and should it) include the achievements that make older Raid Bosses tougher? I'm talking about Sabetha's Last Cannon, Slothasor's Golden Slubling and so on. Or is it only about Wing 4 and Wing 5 -actual- CMs?

Only the actual CMs. The achievements are too easy, they would be basically giving CM rewards for free if they were included in the repeatable CMs. Last cannon can get messy, same with the golden slubbling, but they are too easy still. And Matt/Trio are a faceroll, nothing different from the normal mode. I could understand those being included at first just for the sake of diversity though, since we have few real CMs.