Core Thief and D/D

Topic on core and D/D down below

wall of text, bye

i didnt know core d/d was viable 2 years back till recently..anyway, bye i guess.

@pureskullz.7536 said:I play core D/D and the recent nerfs have just been decreasing its performance

Umm...

ThiefDouble Strike: Reduced the damage dealt by this skill by 19% in PvE only.Wild Strike: Reduced the damage dealt by this skill by 18% in PvE only.

You must be talking about other nerfs to core thief then?

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"pureskullz.7536" said:I play core D/D and the recent nerfs have just been decreasing its performance

ThiefDouble Strike: Reduced the damage dealt by this skill by 19% in

PvE only

.Wild Strike: Reduced the damage dealt by this skill by 18% in

PvE only

.

Lol obviously. The core is just outdated compared to the other professions. Obliviously Anet is focused on DE since they want to encourage people to buy the expansion(s). Also, people back then asked for a sniper profess and they gave it to them. Which is fine since they need to get paid for their works. The problem is there are people like this person here and so many others brought the expansion(s) but they want to play core thief builds and don't want to play meta(DD and DE). I saw a lot of good thiefs that are old players switching to other games... like overwatch and etc. They even make video discussing the decline of the thief so this is nothing new. Example: (Redeemer 2016) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIjKuoybS78&t=1453s

I also believe they are trying to keep a profession population balance too. Since there were talk of over populated players using human females compared to there gender and race. Thus, they didn't like that and want to people to try other races. Can that be the same with the professions that want a balance population of thief too? Thief are usually too popular class so the "Nerfs" is to keep our population down. You can see now that all professions now have a balance statistics of 9%-12%. https://gw2armory.com/statisticsThe problem with this is there are thief lovers like him and myself that don't want to play anything else. So they quit. I put in a lot of money and time so I won't be quitting anytime soon. lol

lol Only my thoughts.

If you're not willing to adapt in a competitive environment, and insist on restricting yourself with self made rules (not playing the strongest spec for flavour reasons) then you're going to get frustrated and you can only blame yourself.

Trust me, I know. I mained S/P thief throughout all of HoT, but eventually I got fed up and decided I'm going to play whatever way is the most efficient way to kill the other guy as fast as possible with the least risk to me (currently that's rifle D/P deadeye). Because as much as I love S/P and you love D/D, everyone else plays to win, and I'm hamstringing myself by sticking with something that I know can't defend against the meta and can't kill fast enough to be a threat when outnumbered.

@Xenji.4907 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"pureskullz.7536" said:I play core D/D and the recent nerfs have just been decreasing its performance

ThiefDouble Strike: Reduced the damage dealt by this skill by 19% in

PvE only

.Wild Strike: Reduced the damage dealt by this skill by 18% in

PvE only

.

That's an interesting video.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 Yeah I understand that but I've also gotten to the point of trying other classes and other weapon sets just don't suit how I play and it generally isn't fun for me. So yeah I just wanted to post and see what other people are thinking about right now. I've found that it's about time for another break for me and wait for balancing.

@MUDse.7623 said:i didnt know core d/d was viable 2 years back till recently..anyway, bye i guess.

Didn't say it was viable or if I did not what I meant sorry to confuse you lmao.

@pureskullz.7536 said:@Jugglemonkey.8741 Yeah I understand that but I've also gotten to the point of trying other classes and other weapon sets just don't suit how I play and it generally isn't fun for me. So yeah I just wanted to post and see what other people are thinking about right now. I've found that it's about time for another break for me and wait for balancing.

i agree with you. The state in which thief is right now is imo bad. But let me explain mysefl. Not bad statistically. It is bad personally. Statistics are saying we are fine De is top dps power DD is 3rd dps from top by benchmarks = we do okay. But personally it is bad because it only adresses the performance of the new elites and not a performance of a class as a whole. It only buffs/ nerfs what needs to be done so statistics are fine.There are plp even in this thread who will love this because they will copy their predetermened build form snowcrows/meta and they will run around doing numbers from statistics with huge happy bonie and if you say it isnt what you want to do to run by the meta or whatever and you just want to play your thief they will throw pile of dirt on you pretty much like majority of ppl did here.I am sorry you have to quit man. It is always a sad day when a fellow thief leaves the game.Every time i play PVP and i meet thief i send all my team mates away so we can duel over the point. To have a match of skills outwit the other one. But not always i get what i give. I can meet p/p De and he will be just damn happy he killed me with three Unloads Or rifle De as you said perma stealth and bang.Thief used to have and i still believe it does have a certain honor among thieves. Like it really is in underground. But this is long gone from this game. Only few of us remain and even less of us will remain if this keeps going on. If you are having any good sugestions for a game where to go i would like to have them i dont really do into other MMOs i just play GW beacuse it was always a good game and it is a good game but it just turns into statistic schedule.Have fun gaming wherever winds blow you buddy.

@Xenji.4907 said:The problem is there are people like this person here and so many others brought the expansion(s) but they want to play core thief builds and don't want to play meta(DD and DE).

the problem is they want to play their own game wich is fine, they may play weaker builds if they enjoy it. but you cant truely expect to win in a game if you restrict yourself playing to your own rules and not to the games rules. you also wont join a car race with your lawn mower, you might have fun driving it but you wont win the race.you limit your own potential if you use a suboptimal build, this can go well as long as you face only players were you can offset the difference in the builds potential with skill. this will become more difficult the weaker your build is or the better your opponents are. does that mean you cant play a weak build? no you perfectly can if you have fun doing it. the issue those quitting players have is that they knowingly select a suboptimal build or a build that 'requires skill' (because any strong build cannot require skill. if the build is strong it will nearly auto win against weak builds) and then expect to win regardless.

as long as your aware of the powerlevel of your build and only expect such results, then it is all fine to me. my personal issue with alot of such players is that they cannot stop applying their rules just to themselves, they often expect their opponents to play in line to their rules. this causes alot of hostility within the community of every pvp game ever.

IMO many players restricting themselves for 'skill' reasons do this because of 2 reasons. firstly if they win a fight they truely know they outclassed their opponent wich is awesome and secondly because they never have to face that they failed. if they lose, they will often lose to 'OP','unfair','cheese' whatever builds that are not in line with their own rules and so they think they were still the better player in the fight. many of them also feel the need to tell their opponent that they think they are the better players despite losing, to make sure they know of it. just look at the video you posted how he talks about condi players or ones using stealth alot, if he had argued that those builds or tactics are weak and gave reasons for it that would be one thing, but he just attacked them personally instead, because they dont play his game.

anyway WvW gives us more options what is optimal and what not. because nobody is playing the mode as designed, everyone is playing their own game so you can make any build work for you there, if you stick to your strentghts and keep your expectations realistically. in spvp were the mode is more ..well, structured and people play to win the matches, you are not as free to choose your build for good results.

@pureskullz.7536 said:Yeah I understand that but I've also gotten to the point of trying other classes and other weapon sets just don't suit how I play and it generally isn't fun for me. So yeah I just wanted to post and see what other people are thinking about right now. I've found that it's about time for another break for me and wait for balancing.

have you tried a d/d + rifle deadeye yet ?i play d/p+rifle in wvw and it is pretty strong. i technically dont need offhand pistol much and could replace it with a dagger, yet i am no longer used to playing with offhand dagger so i run pistol. with the damage boost you get from deadeye you dont need as much offensive controll like immob, weakness, poison, boonrips, interrupts so you dont need DA/TR as much. but you get a good stealth access with rifle, more with rifle+d/x so you can make a good use of SA wich you were already using. and then you can simply option for more damage with CS, as you are weaving stealth with both d/d and rifle you can go for hidden killer wich lets you choose valkyre so you have a 21k+ hp pool while doing berserker level of damage as long as you weave stealth. you dont have to be as much on rifle as i am but its allways good to have a powerfull range option to force opponents to come close, d/d allways had the problem that it couldnt chase good enough. well rifle has the problem that every one tries to jump in your face, doesnt that sound like a perfect synergy?if you havent i would really advise you try it out, else good luck in other games/RL.

Tldr;Bye bye OP :cookie:

@MUDse.7623 I'll try it out as your suggesting it wouldn't be one shot so yeah just have to get used to it. Since I'm used to having to live off of steal and CnD for stealth. Also can relate to the fact that it's harder to chase as when I have played DE like you've said people are up in your face generally the type of style D/D encourages playing as.

See here's the problem with people handwaving all these "changes" to just play the game another way and that it doesn't hurt it.
If you're not playing the meta, you're that much more impacted and hurt by all these changes. This was a direct hit to the most core design of Thief, the general damage attacks. Ok, so what if I can attain the same theoretical DPS by min-maxing meta rotations? How can you possibly argue that choosing to play one way SHOULD be suboptimal?

What the heck ever happened to fun or just logical straight up design? You know what's not fun? Balancing maximum theoretical DPS under min-max settings against a DPS golem then deciding to nerf general purpose skills used for everything. Won't it be great if killing everything required a 300 APM rotation because it requires skill? No, because it's arbitrary busywork. There's no fun in pushing a rotation when it's just for increased damage. Skills should be used for utilities, not some dumb as heck rotational based APM gameplay.

Let's put it this way. If DPS is blown out of the water, who in their right mind thinks its okay to balance that DPS based on the most used general skill in the game, inside or outside of the rotation? If you affect something within that optimal rotation, you screw EVERYONE over, from the meta to the non-meta.

That's bad game design. That's incredibly poor balance. And a great way to ruin any semblance of fun. It's what's happened to core ranger's DPS with the nerfs to the torch and shortbow. Hmm, soulbeast is blowing things out of the water, why not reduce some of Soulbeast's modifiers or certain pet skills rather than gimping everybody with some of the most used skills in the entire game? What a joke. This isn't about builds or optimization. It's about having fun, but no, our META and our BALANCE and ROTATIONS and DPS GOLEMS and RAID DAMAGE are superior to everything else. In short, numbers are more important than the actual gameplay with every subsequent balance update. It's just nerfs to nerfs to nerfs of core damage abilities.

I will never get why people make a long post to say they are leaving. Like, do they monologue right before leaving a party?

At any rate, from my observations thief seems fairly fine. I really wouldn't put it in a weak profession category.

@pureskullz.7536 said:@MUDse.7623 I'll try it out as your suggesting it wouldn't be one shot so yeah just have to get used to it. Since I'm used to having to live off of steal and CnD for stealth. Also can relate to the fact that it's harder to chase as when I have played DE like you've said people are up in your face generally the type of style D/D encourages playing as.

It's really not good.

If you've pushed D/D to its limits like I have, D/D DE is carried by DE and D/P is just infinitely stronger.

DE has zero innate synergy with D/D; you simply cannot lose steal in most matchups. I'd actually argue it's a strict impairment compared to D/P no matter how you spin it, and in general, it's just about as effective as D/D core is when it's pushed to its absolute limits. Stylistically, they're nothing alike, either. You're basically playing old D/P SA. And even then I still think it's worse overall because D/P SA is harder to punish if played well. Personally, I think Acro is better for D/D than DE is.

@Dace.8173 said:I will never get why people make a long post to say they are leaving. Like, do they monologue right before leaving a party?

At any rate, from my observations thief seems fairly fine. I really wouldn't put it in a weak profession category.

Thief in general is OK but in PvP/WvW D/D core is absolute garbage right now because of what it sacrifices and what it needs to sacrifice to be functional. The changes to DA and even BP were a bigger hit than people think for core's performance. It's sad because D/D's dominance in PvE thanks to MH dagger AA/backstab and CnD (fast/cheap single-instance stealth compared to BP+HS for raids) with it's stupidly simple rotation are what is locking the kit out of a rework.

D/D as a kit mandates a rework to skills 3/4. They worked (barely) when the game was slower (like when your big-bad scary profession was a hammer warrior where you could dodge major skills with death blossom and take occasional hits). As of now, simply pressing the buttons usually gets you autokilled one way or another, and to make D/D functional, it's forced to make pretty big sacrifices either to damage or defense such that out-playing people really just isn't possible.

Like right now, into meta spellbreaker, D/D core can't mathematically win if the spellbreaker players correctly. Not just a disadvantaged matchup; it's literally impossible to win with proper play by a warrior. It has less resources on all fronts for the entire duration of the fight. It's even worse in WvW with on-dodge food for spellbreaker, mirage, and holo which get bigger proportional gains.

The monologue is a bit poorly-formatted but the opinion is valid and is a long-shared sentiment by a lot of people, especially D/D players. A lot of the D/D community has quit. I just logged in after like six months of inactivity and really don't play anymore except when I'm truly bored. The game just isn't fun and my favorite build/style is the opposite of rewarding and feels downright frustrating most times.

I've put six years into D/D thief. I've played the same character on the same weapon skills on the same trait lines since day 1. People want to be good with their new stuff, I get it, but I'd hope with six years of practice I could remain effective. That's really just no longer the case anymore. When I want to win fights, I play my reaper. It's just outright better than D/D core is in the PvP modes. And that's saying something considering what the state reaper is believed to be in.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@pureskullz.7536 said:@MUDse.7623 I'll try it out as your suggesting it wouldn't be one shot so yeah just have to get used to it. Since I'm used to having to live off of steal and CnD for stealth. Also can relate to the fact that it's harder to chase as when I have played DE like you've said people are up in your face generally the type of style D/D encourages playing as.

DE doesnt need synergy it simply buffs backstab damage by ALOT wich solves your issue with mathematicaly unkillable opponents you like to complain about. your correct that offhand pistol is a little better here but not much.i am not sure what the reasons are OP likes to play d/d power. if it is just for visuals, then he can play it as d/x +rifle deadeye, because it is pretty strong in WvW right now and doesnt even need an offhand if it wouldnt provide stats. if it is for some kind of feeling how the class plays, well then yeah deadeye is very different. but it surely is miles stronger then acro d/d thief. unless ofc you try to camp d/d on such a deadeye.., that set is more as decoration and to execute, not your main weapon.

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:You must be talking about other nerfs to core thief then?

I'm guessing he means the July 10th patch. If so, I must agree.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@pureskullz.7536 said:@MUDse.7623 I'll try it out as your suggesting it wouldn't be one shot so yeah just have to get used to it. Since I'm used to having to live off of steal and CnD for stealth. Also can relate to the fact that it's harder to chase as when I have played DE like you've said people are up in your face generally the type of style D/D encourages playing as.

DE does not fix the problems D/D has, which are a lack of mobility and denial opportunity as well as an over-dependence on one source of very predictable and easily shut-down damage. Rifle alone is objectively a superior version of D/D due to its strengths being nearly the same, with simply fewer of the weaknesses.D/D does not generate malice well because the initiative spent to generate it is wasted on skills which at the beginning of a fight generally suck, and there is no way to realistically recover the lost resources which are necessary to win. D/D's shortcomings for ages have revolved around weak skills 2/3/4. It cannot engage a fight well because it is forced to waste critical utilities and resources to do so. Smart play by the enemy easily counteracts benefits small "free" bumps like stealth on MwS. Unless the opponent is simply bad, they have all engagement priority, which is what D/D harshly depends on to win most fights based on its skill layout.

Even into SB, there's little to nothing gained by playing DE. It has some potential to function better in a strict duel thanks to M7 (Malicious backstab isn't really a factor at all in the matchup; it's more about not dying and initiative/utility cooldowns), but what's gained into the warrior is lost into something like a soulbeast or mesmer/mirage.

D/D isn't comparable to other kits on thief and even other kits on other classes for the most part due to the way it plays. It's a high-intensity, high-commitment kit focused on maintaining constant aggression and engagement while reacting to your opponents' major skills, and then leveraging these cooldowns/downtime to make trades thanks to its cheap high damage. Played well, there's just nothing like it otherwise in the game. It's very unique and plays in a special way that really isn't found on other professions and builds.

D/D's problem in its current skill layout is that it simply doesn't cope with enemy powercreep (skill uptime, damage/trade-making, defenses, and mobility) by its very nature.

i feel like you didnt understand.again i didnt suggest him to mainly camp on d/d, you mainly abuse your range advantage on rilfe, forcing your opponent to come. then you use stealth from solen skills and rifle and finish them off with malicious backstab and again you dont need any offhand at all. playing like this is far superior to d/d core. if your trying to tell me that d/d core is in a better position then d/x+rifle deadeye in WvW roaming, then hey i might just underestimate core d/d, but then it is far from weak.malicious backstab not being a factor against spellbreakers is interesting, cause once i have 7 malice, most of them i can execute even from 100% hp. the ones that you cant execute with m7 backstab 100-0 are running very defensive and are not dealing much damage to you, you can play more aggressive against those. and with rifle on 2nd set, them being melee, it is very easy to gain malice against warriors.

=> you have 2 weapon sets on, use both = profit. your too much set on playing single kit thief. but we now have a range weapon that is good offensive and defensive so we can now play with melee+range and thus gain more control over the fight.

I mean this is what I was using and it's performed well considering its core but as I said it just runs out and your stuck and it feels like I'm suppressed due to this fact and i did try the DE D/D out it doesn't feel far too different as I run infiltrator's and would rather run with movement increase and I don't camp stealth that extra stealth with D/D is far less than D/P and heals me and gives inti so I can stay in fights longer allowing me to at least have a chance against say a D/P thief or SB it also prevents me from getting one shotted so it didn't play that much differently only besides the fact no steal.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnY5TwyJw/EHwEkOBBY38ekjZ4TTcaDA-jpxHQBB8EAosDBw1KDAgjAgand yes I've ran executioner for more damage but improv lets me last longer and saves my ass against fights I don't start

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@pureskullz.7536 said:@MUDse.7623 I'll try it out as your suggesting it wouldn't be one shot so yeah just have to get used to it. Since I'm used to having to live off of steal and CnD for stealth. Also can relate to the fact that it's harder to chase as when I have played DE like you've said people are up in your face generally the type of style D/D encourages playing as.

Your not wrong about the survival but your wrong about it's potential to fight well 1v1 and against good players. Essentially DB is an evade used to dodge most burst it requires more timing. Your heartSeeker is a gap close than dancing dagger used to cripple so no one escapes and if they are running generally the fight should be 1v1 and you can just either imob them. I've found not casting basi straight away with D/D is the best due to the fact it's a classic opening that's expected generally let them be aggressive and you just use CnD to be up in their face this play style works very well with SA. As you can not be crited in stealth and you're gaining health making it your safe place from ppl. I agree with @MUDse.7623 on it does work better for D/D situation there are areas it would need like say a class reveals you like holo you just use elite and your stealth if your enemy is gonna block and go immune to dmg why should you show your face. You can still hit them if they go immune but if they are blocking wait for them to stop DB over them turn CnD if you miss you can easily do DB again if you get cced binding powder move back HS CnD backstab. I've played the build for ages I know its flaws well the only time something is hard to catch is a damn holo or ranger that leaps than you have a problem. the only thing Core D/D is lacking right now depending on the play style is reveal removal easy stealth application and damage something DE answers and can be swapped for DA.

@Lyros.4673 Also gotta remember even if it isn't meta doesn't mean it's not capable just not in wide use but it's slowly becoming to the point to where you can't. I generally don't comment or post discussions but it's to the point to where I'm just gonna ask for opinions I generally try to figure it out on my own solo and test it over and over for days and weeks. I spend a lot of time on messing with my builds so in other words reaching out to other thieves for help if I can't find anything that works I'll just have to go and take a break and wait till core or something involving D/D gets changed.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Xenji.4907 said:The problem is there are people like this person here and so many others brought the expansion(s) but they want to play core thief builds and don't want to play meta(DD and DE).

Fair - I agree with you. People don't look at themselves first and see what they are doing wrong in either timing on their attacks/traits/runes/sigil combo is not working for them. I am 100 percent with you on that. I am only defending people that quit and have many years experience of the game in which they continue to try to adapt and change and improve their play/builds. I try my best to look at all classes with any changes Anet try to do and see it as a bigger picture. Like the nerf to AA for dagger thief. I knew D/D DE was a bit overboard on dps. Honestly, I didn't see much of a problem. I go D/D DD and don't see a problem with the lower damage since its so minor. I even play D/D in Wvw and oneshot people for fun. If I see new players or players with weak commitment to the game complain, try to be put it to the side since they don't truely understand(And HEY Anet can be listening to them). The ones that said they been playing longer then a year or so and put time and effort into the game. I listen to those people more and see what is it that can be the problem.

I think my push is to be a balance in weapon choice and class to play any types of game modes; (pve, pvp, wvw) and still be able to handle themselves and be an asset to the squad. However their choices in trait and skills so that what skill/experience of a player will only show who is better OR continue to on what we are doing here is where some weapon combos or professions that are so weak(difficult to excel) that nobody plays them regardless of skill or not. For example; I don't see p/d thief...and I play D/D daredevil... so I am only good in condi or with DE or just in Raid only? If a really good player using a non meta build vs a less experience player that is playing a meta build and the outcome is the person with the meta build always wins? That to me is a problem because that only promotes only certain professions with certain combo of weapons can only get a leg up of the game. SO no skills involve.. That kind of defeats the purpose of the Guild Wars 2 where they want you play different types of race, professions, and weapon choice. Hmmm I feel like I am getting into too deep of this that I can't grasp fully which is reality to idealism in my head so I will just listen to your responses. LOL

@pureskullz.7536 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@pureskullz.7536 said:@MUDse.7623 I'll try it out as your suggesting it wouldn't be one shot so yeah just have to get used to it. Since I'm used to having to live off of steal and CnD for stealth. Also can relate to the fact that it's harder to chase as when I have played DE like you've said people are up in your face generally the type of style D/D encourages playing as.

I mean against an immobile target with somewhat high cooldowns it's fine but I mean that's a given for thief in general. D/D has lost efficacy because it can't trade cooldowns well anymore, and most professions which used to be unable to run can reset out of it. It gets worse on DE.

BV opening into meta spellbreaker isn't a good idea because it'll be wasted on auto-balanced stance from SoH, and most of the top builds have CC reflection as it is which punishes CC-based engages. You also talk about using Meld in the same paragraph. DE's reveal-cleanse will occupy your elite which replaces BV.

You can be critted in stealth so idk what you're talking about. That's how killing DE's is so easy most of the time since they're almost always very predictable. SA is good for SE, SR, and HT to save init but that can hurt D/D from the lack of CnD damage, and these benefits are not lost on D/P, which also favors SA as a whole stylistically and mathematically across the board.

Forced reveal is the least of your problems. Meld's cast is long and usually gets interrupted without mobility or some sort of denial skill. But that's also the critical flaw with D/D at the moment; the kit is designed to not solely depend on stealth via DB's evasion, but it's too poor of a tool for damage avoidance, and HS's mobility just isn't up to parity with SB/Soulbeast/Mirage/SSwell Scourge/Holo/S/x weaver, allowing a good player to force anyone playing D/D against them to have no hand. Even M7's initiative recovery isn't helpful in the existing counter matchups.

D/D does plenty of damage. It's easily the hardest-kitting kit on thief. It just lacks reliability and the ability to pressure without instantly being blown up.Go ahead and insist, but DE will not answer your problems except into bad players. Your existing counters only start countering you harder. If you haven't already exhausted all your options then I don't know why you even made the OP. I've tried D/D DE with all sorts of utility skill options. It's out-shined by both core and DrD.