[suggestion] foot in the grave revamp — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[suggestion] foot in the grave revamp

Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 26, 2018 in Necromancer

ive always liked this skill, but it falls short compared to the other choices. so here is my revamp:

foot in the grave
breaks stun OR grants stability (2 stax for 3sec) and reduces shroud by 5 seconds (enter/exit core/reaper as well as desert shroud).

Te lazla otstra.

Comments

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like it. Another option might be to convert control effects, fear, and taunt to stability.

  • Kumouta.4985Kumouta.4985 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2018

    should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

  • It needs a buff, but the buff you suggested is just gross power creep and makes no sense.

    you want shroud recharge reduced to only 5 seconds and be a stun break? It's like Elusive Mind but on Necromancers...
    I believe your suggestion also wants it to be RNG based? (either stability or a stunbreak?) This doesn't even make sense.

    Let's not present things that are just more cancer for the game and consider viable suggestions.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kumouta.4985 said:
    should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

    Yeah, I'd rather it just grant stability whilst inside shroud. Make the interval every 2 seconds.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2018

    @Kumouta.4985 said:
    should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

    I dont like the idea of pulsing stability on a shroud thats as flexible as reaper or core honestly it wont be a healthy change that people wont complain about and surely you must know that. Its generally not a healthy mechanic to have in this game. (there was a time when i thought of this idea too but thinking about it when i had to fight double (balanced stance warriors before the nerf to stances) on any profession that was not necromancer its very frustrating not be able to do anything against. The only counter to it is realistically necro itself. )

    The difference with juggernaut is that flamethrower kit is not very flexible. Its very limited and the skills are not as impactful as core or reaper shroud skills.

    As far as the OP idea
    The best thing would be to grant 2 or 3 stacks of stab for 4-5 seconds on entry (enough stacks to soak a double stun/ duration long enough to secure a stomp without being interrupted easily if you wished to do so)

    Aside from that the fact that it also breaks stun on shroud entry makes it good as is.
    Its not that its current mechanics are bad the numbers are just funky. Not enough stab stats and the duration of those stacks is too short.

    EDIT:
    Another idea would be to make it do this
    Entering shroud breaks stun, shroud skills 2 trough 5 grant stability on use.
    Breaks stun
    Skills 2-5 now grant stability
    Stability 1 stack for 4 seconds

    This way its not limited to simply entry and the user has more control of when they get the stability. The trait also helps the necro complete what is often very long channeled skills in shroud without being interrupted as easily (though double stuns can still do it) making it several times more valuable. Imo This is a better option over pulsing stability as it will still have down times and works a a strong defensive option which is the traits nature. Also more synergy with blighters boon for those who opt to take the defensive reaper playstyle over the offensive one.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    It needs a buff, but the buff you suggested is just gross power creep and makes no sense.

    you want shroud recharge reduced to only 5 seconds and be a stun break? It's like Elusive Mind but on Necromancers...
    I believe your suggestion also wants it to be RNG based? (either stability or a stunbreak?) This doesn't even make sense.

    Let's not present things that are just more cancer for the game and consider viable suggestions.

    no I meant if the stunbreak was too strong then go with the stability instead.
    sure lol follow your own advice, do you have any viable suggestions?

    @Kumouta.4985 said:
    should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

    that would be way too strong.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • mazut.4296mazut.4296 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kumouta.4985 said:
    should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

    I dont like the idea of pulsing stability on a shroud thats as flexible as reaper or core honestly it wont be a healthy change that people wont complain about and surely you must know that. Its generally not a healthy mechanic to have in this game. (there was a time when i thought of this idea too but thinking about it when i had to fight double (balanced stance warriors before the nerf to stances) on any profession that was not necromancer its very frustrating not be able to do anything against. The only counter to it is realistically necro itself. )

    The difference with juggernaut is that flamethrower kit is not very flexible. Its very limited and the skills are not as impactful as core or reaper shroud skills.

    As far as the OP idea
    The best thing would be to grant 2 or 3 stacks of stab for 4-5 seconds on entry (enough stacks to soak a double stun/ duration long enough to secure a stomp without being interrupted easily if you wished to do so)

    Aside from that the fact that it also breaks stun on shroud entry makes it good as is.
    Its not that its current mechanics are bad the numbers are just funky. Not enough stab stats and the duration of those stacks is too short.

    EDIT:
    Another idea would be to make it do this
    Entering shroud breaks stun, shroud skills 2 trough 5 grant stability on use.
    Breaks stun
    Skills 2-5 now grant stability
    Stability 1 stack for 4 seconds

    This way its not limited to simply entry and the user has more control of when they get the stability. The trait also helps the necro complete what is often very long channeled skills in shroud without being interrupted as easily (though double stuns can still do it) making it several times more valuable. Imo This is a better option over pulsing stability as it will still have down times and works a a strong defensive option which is the traits nature. Also more synergy with blighters boon for those who opt to take the defensive reaper playstyle over the offensive one.

    Only skill 4 and 5 should give stability(2 stacks for 6 sec. Up to 5 players with desert shroud). If auto attack giving stab, that will be to strong, but it's a cool idea.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mazut.4296 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kumouta.4985 said:
    should be more like the engi trait juggernaut imo

    I dont like the idea of pulsing stability on a shroud thats as flexible as reaper or core honestly it wont be a healthy change that people wont complain about and surely you must know that. Its generally not a healthy mechanic to have in this game. (there was a time when i thought of this idea too but thinking about it when i had to fight double (balanced stance warriors before the nerf to stances) on any profession that was not necromancer its very frustrating not be able to do anything against. The only counter to it is realistically necro itself. )

    The difference with juggernaut is that flamethrower kit is not very flexible. Its very limited and the skills are not as impactful as core or reaper shroud skills.

    As far as the OP idea
    The best thing would be to grant 2 or 3 stacks of stab for 4-5 seconds on entry (enough stacks to soak a double stun/ duration long enough to secure a stomp without being interrupted easily if you wished to do so)

    Aside from that the fact that it also breaks stun on shroud entry makes it good as is.
    Its not that its current mechanics are bad the numbers are just funky. Not enough stab stats and the duration of those stacks is too short.

    EDIT:
    Another idea would be to make it do this
    Entering shroud breaks stun, shroud skills 2 trough 5 grant stability on use.
    Breaks stun
    Skills 2-5 now grant stability
    Stability 1 stack for 4 seconds

    This way its not limited to simply entry and the user has more control of when they get the stability. The trait also helps the necro complete what is often very long channeled skills in shroud without being interrupted as easily (though double stuns can still do it) making it several times more valuable. Imo This is a better option over pulsing stability as it will still have down times and works a a strong defensive option which is the traits nature. Also more synergy with blighters boon for those who opt to take the defensive reaper playstyle over the offensive one.

    Only skill 4 and 5 should give stability(2 stacks for 6 sec. Up to 5 players with desert shroud). If auto attack giving stab, that will be to strong, but it's a cool idea.

    You might have totally missed the part where i said skills 2 through 4 lol basically only skills with cooldowns would grant it. Also no this is not a support based trait and would only grant the stacks to the caster.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If alacrity affect shroud CD, why not adding let's say 4-5s alacrity to FitG on shroud exit? Because whatever happen, 5 flat second CD reduction on shroud isn't going to be realist.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2018

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If alacrity affect shroud CD, why not adding let's say 4-5s alacrity to FitG on shroud exit? Because whatever happen, 5 flat second CD reduction on shroud isn't going to be realist.

    that sounds pretty good, except that alacrity would affect other skills as well and could turn out to be op.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If alacrity affect shroud CD, why not adding let's say 4-5s alacrity to FitG on shroud exit? Because whatever happen, 5 flat second CD reduction on shroud isn't going to be realist.

    that sounds pretty good, except that alacrity would affect other skills as well and could turn out to be op.

    I don't see a lot of out of shroud skills that would be OP even with a shave of CD thought...

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If alacrity affect shroud CD, why not adding let's say 4-5s alacrity to FitG on shroud exit? Because whatever happen, 5 flat second CD reduction on shroud isn't going to be realist.

    that sounds pretty good, except that alacrity would affect other skills as well and could turn out to be op.

    I don't see a lot of out of shroud skills that would be OP even with a shave of CD thought...

    I can think of one reason
    Vital Persistence + Reapers Onslaught/w auto attacks + having personal access to Alacrity to stack on top of these other traits which also reduce shroud skill cooldowns.

    In reapers case THATS ALOT of cooldown shave potential without outside supporting sources

    For core it could be ok
    For scourge it might be ok ish.... even then its still questionable (boon duration could make it a problem)
    For reaper It might be busted which leads to more of the wrong things getting changed to balance it out.

    I still think our best bet is just looking at how the current mechanic to gain the stability works (like getting 1 stack on use of shroud skills that have cooldowns) or just doing a numbers change on stacks and duration and calling it a day

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

    In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.
    That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

    In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.
    That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

    That makes it overly strong actually as it would
    Grant more stab for longer
    Break stun on entry
    and reduce shroud cooldown

    Keep in mind your numbers reduce the cd to a point that it is possible that the stab can potentially last longer than the shroud cooldown itself meaning perma stab loops with a little splash of boon duration.

    Shroud cd is not coming back any time soon if we do see it come back i wouldnt be surprised if its thrown into a death magic rework. becoming one of the many useless traits in that line that serve no purpose.

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

    In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.
    That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

    That makes it overly strong actually as it would
    Grant more stab for longer
    Break stun on entry
    and reduce shroud cooldown

    Keep in mind your numbers reduce the cd to a point that it is possible that the stab can potentially last longer than the shroud cooldown itself meaning perma stab loops with a little splash of boon duration.

    Shroud cd is not coming back any time soon if we do see it come back i wouldnt be surprised if its thrown into a death magic rework. becoming one of the many useless traits in that line that serve no purpose.

    Ye ok 8s with cd reduction might not be good, but if the cd reduction is not there then 8s of 2 stacks of stab imo are the minimum you should get from a grandmaster trait. Also are we really that scared to give core necro more stability? Because that is the only trait we have for it. And to be honest the boonloop on shroud in my opinion should be a thing, obviously with a cap on max duration and stacks, but should be there because it's a nice mechanic to have.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Pulsing stab 5secs on shroud enter.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

    In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.
    That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

    That makes it overly strong actually as it would
    Grant more stab for longer
    Break stun on entry
    and reduce shroud cooldown

    Keep in mind your numbers reduce the cd to a point that it is possible that the stab can potentially last longer than the shroud cooldown itself meaning perma stab loops with a little splash of boon duration.

    Shroud cd is not coming back any time soon if we do see it come back i wouldnt be surprised if its thrown into a death magic rework. becoming one of the many useless traits in that line that serve no purpose.

    Ye ok 8s with cd reduction might not be good, but if the cd reduction is not there then 8s of 2 stacks of stab imo are the minimum you should get from a grandmaster trait. Also are we really that scared to give core necro more stability? Because that is the only trait we have for it. And to be honest the boonloop on shroud in my opinion should be a thing, obviously with a cap on max duration and stacks, but should be there because it's a nice mechanic to have.

    I dont approve of boon splatter of any kind because thats part of the big issue in this game right now. If most of the professions had 50% of their boons cut necro would be perfectly fine in the meta. Infact necro would be overly strong in the meta. So you have to ask yourself is adding more perma boon spam a good solution.

    So I say no its not. I'm all for giving necro more stab if its done in a proper way where it can be counter played but not in a way where it can be hard to counter play due to having it spammed up all the time. (this is why pulsing stab was culled from almost everything except warriors balanced stance) which has been extremely nerfed in duration.

    I think 2 stacks for 6 seconds would be more realistic in my opinion or simply have it tied to some of the shroud skills that have cooldowns (not the auto attack) 1 stack for 4 seconds etc.
    Spectral armor at base shrould grant 1 stack on use. and just like that necro has enough base stab if you opt to take it. Having stab is not the only way for necros sustain to improve mind you we could also use evades, or blocks, or even break targets, something of that nature but we need to wait for a death magic rework to see some of that stuff.

    A nice base buff would be making fear cause foes to drop targeting and prevent targeting until fear was removed. Its not always just about having stability

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Bump it up to 3 stacks and reduce shroud cd to 7s. That makes it competitive with death perception without being too strong

    In my opinion 2 stacks for 8s(same duration as furious demise) instead of 3 stacks for 3s and the shroud cooldown reduced to 7s.
    That is really all the change this trait need, more stab for longer duration and shroud cooldown reduction, nothing fancy nothing revolutionary just a simple really good grandmaster trait

    That makes it overly strong actually as it would
    Grant more stab for longer
    Break stun on entry
    and reduce shroud cooldown

    Keep in mind your numbers reduce the cd to a point that it is possible that the stab can potentially last longer than the shroud cooldown itself meaning perma stab loops with a little splash of boon duration.

    Shroud cd is not coming back any time soon if we do see it come back i wouldnt be surprised if its thrown into a death magic rework. becoming one of the many useless traits in that line that serve no purpose.

    Ye ok 8s with cd reduction might not be good, but if the cd reduction is not there then 8s of 2 stacks of stab imo are the minimum you should get from a grandmaster trait. Also are we really that scared to give core necro more stability? Because that is the only trait we have for it. And to be honest the boonloop on shroud in my opinion should be a thing, obviously with a cap on max duration and stacks, but should be there because it's a nice mechanic to have.

    I dont approve of boon splatter of any kind because thats part of the big issue in this game right now. If most of the professions had 50% of their boons cut necro would be perfectly fine in the meta. Infact necro would be overly strong in the meta. So you have to ask yourself is adding more perma boon spam a good solution.

    So I say no its not. I'm all for giving necro more stab if its done in a proper way where it can be counter played but not in a way where it can be hard to counter play due to having it spammed up all the time. (this is why pulsing stab was culled from almost everything except warriors balanced stance) which has been extremely nerfed in duration.

    I think 2 stacks for 6 seconds would be more realistic in my opinion or simply have it tied to some of the shroud skills that have cooldowns (not the auto attack) 1 stack for 4 seconds etc.
    Spectral armor at base shrould grant 1 stack on use. and just like that necro has enough base stab if you opt to take it. Having stab is not the only way for necros sustain to improve mind you we could also use evades, or blocks, or even break targets, something of that nature but we need to wait for a death magic rework to see some of that stuff.

    A nice base buff would be making fear cause foes to drop targeting and prevent targeting until fear was removed. Its not always just about having stability

    I would agreee with you on the fact to not have boon splatter if Anet would cut boons, but it's clear Anet isn't going back with that, so imo it could be a "why not test it?". Also consider that for boon loop i'm not meaning something stupid like 3-4 stack, i mean to keep 1 stack reliable, max 2 but with low duration. Keep in mind that if you invest in concetration, even if it's not a good stat for necro, you can stack fury through Furious Demise and swiftness through Speed of Shadows, but right now it would useless to invest that much in concentration.

    So outside of boon loop if we are not considering that then I agree that 2 stab stack per 6s would be good and I also would really like to see stab on spectral skills.
    For sure we could use evades and blocks more than stability, but we know already with a 6 years experience that Anet is going to give them to watever other class except necro. A rework of death magic would be great to include this changes, it might lead even to something like: when you grant yourself protection get 1 stack of stab or aegis., or maybe tied to something else some low duration invuln or evade. But to be honest I don't think a death magic rework is on the way, they had many opportunities and, they seems to really not care about it( I say this with the hope they'll do something).

    Edit: I just saw it now the fear to break target could be interesting. But to be honest i don't like the break target mechanic because it interfers with my gameplay, if i target someone I should keep the target unless they stealth. Break target is just annoying because force you to retarget and you just waste time doing it. In my opinion to be forced to lose target just to reclick should not be in game but since Anet seems to like, having it on fear might be on our side

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    ive always liked this skill, but it falls short compared to the other choices. so here is my revamp:

    foot in the grave
    breaks stun OR grants stability (2 stax for 3sec) and reduces shroud by 5 seconds (enter/exit core/reaper as well as desert shroud).

    I would love to have this.
    Break stun + reduce shroud by 5 seconds.
    Although 5 seconds might be a little too OP, I would be happy with 3 seconds reduction.

    SoS shroud CD reduce to 7 seconds was my favorite trait in the past because it made Reaper play very fluid.
    FiTG was my 2nd favorite trait because it allows us to bait and set up a counter-burst very well.

    Having both combined in one Grandmaster trait sounds good to me.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Brigg.3961Brigg.3961 Member ✭✭

    FitG is perfect the way it is. The extra stunbreak is vital to facing warriors and other perma stun comps. Anything more than it is, and it becomes overstacked and prone to nerfing. If anything, I'd like to see shroud cd reduction back on either SoS or VP since the power creep has risen beyond what the original nerf was given for.

  • Aetatis.5418Aetatis.5418 Member ✭✭✭

    FitG is fine as it is. if i would have the opportunity to change something, it'd be 2 stacks of stability at most - given the amount of cc flying around endlessly.
    looking at similar traits (although being minor traits) it fits the theme with 1 stack already, plus a stun break.

    i dont think anet is going to revert the shroud reduction to what is was with SoS - did they ever revert something 100%?
    after so long i'd be glad to get a 9sec shroud cd to match weapon swap and sigil cooldowns = a tiny bit less micromanagement.
    most stun breaks got a heavy cd reduction over time (which they needed) - but coupled with a 7sec shroud + FitG (not talking about a buffed version)? idk

    when changing traits and skills, one has to think of all the specializations too.
    giving core necro more stab - no prob
    giving reaper more stab - first thoughts of possible abuse come into mind. (it would fit the theme of unstoppable reaper however)
    giving scourge more stab - that sounds like a lot of people, playing against a scourge, will be pissed. that amount of area control coupled with a lot of stability. phew!

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    Foot in the Grave needs an additional effect. Stunbreak and stability for 3s isn't that much for a GM trait that is triggered every 20 to 25s. You give up a lot when not picking Death Perception. Don't just think about burst builds. Also sustain builds (crusader, cavalier...) do suffer from not picking DP as they lose that trait generated crit chance and will hit like wet noodles.

    So I don't think that a 7s cooldown reduction would lift the class to overpowered levels. Even for scourges whose Desert Shroud then would have a very spammy 13s cooldown, it's a hard choice between such a buffed FitG and Dhuumfire.

    Something that would also be nice was if FitG worked like Soul Barbs on entering and leaving shroud.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Foot in the Grave needs an additional effect. Stunbreak and stability for 3s isn't that much for a GM trait that is triggered every 20 to 25s. You give up a lot when not picking Death Perception. Don't just think about burst builds. Also sustain builds (crusader, cavalier...) do suffer from not picking DP as they lose that trait generated crit chance and will hit like wet noodles.

    So I don't think that a 7s cooldown reduction would lift the class to overpowered levels. Even for scourges whose Desert Shroud then would have a very spammy 13s cooldown, it's a hard choice between such a buffed FitG and Dhuumfire.

    Something that would also be nice was if FitG worked like Soul Barbs on entering and leaving shroud.

    First, it could indeed need more/longer stacks. True. Pulsing I don't see happening because it too heavily decreases counterplay

    Second, CD reduction probably won't happen because it made SR too mandatory. I could see it in a future elite spec since Reaper obviously did not get it 😆

  • Psaro.6178Psaro.6178 Member ✭✭

    I actually think Dhuumfire is currently weaker than Foot-in-the-grave at the moment.
    Only being able to apply 1 stack of burning on 1 target every 5 seconds is very very lackluster.
    I prefer to run with Foot-in-the-grave than the other 2 options for roaming.

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