I feel like Tempest is a failed design — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I feel like Tempest is a failed design

ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 29, 2019 in Elementalist

When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).
Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is never an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

Comments

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Patty.3268 said:
    Elite specs were never said to provide a whole new class mechanic, but rather change the existing one or - if it's not changed like Daredevil's or Mirage's mechanics - at least give the classes new ways to play. Which Tempest did. Instead of just switching attunements every 2-3s, you wait for longer and get an additional powerful skill. Tempest also enabled Ele to easier survive on the front. Therefore, I don't think Tempest is a failed design - it's just not the design you would have liked or wanted to see. Your suggestions sound good, though.

    NO! comply wrong. Dardevil and Mirge have class mechanics that changed old class effect.

    Tempest is less tankly then weaver because having heal and dmg -% on a classes with already low hp and def dose not make for a tank it makes for a dead melee class. I would go as far as saying core ele is more tankly then tempest. Tempest is a sub par support class who needs to go into melee to heal often causing it to die or to be cc to death.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Patty.3268 said:
    Elite specs were never said to provide a whole new class mechanic, but rather change the existing one or - if it's not changed like Daredevil's or Mirage's mechanics - at least give the classes new ways to play. Which Tempest did. Instead of just switching attunements every 2-3s, you wait for longer and get an additional powerful skill. Tempest also enabled Ele to easier survive on the front. Therefore, I don't think Tempest is a failed design - it's just not the design you would have liked or wanted to see. Your suggestions sound good, though.

    Mirage and Daredevil both have mechanics that change the way you play the class. Both happen to be on positionning and opportunities to strike.

    The Tempest got... 4 AOE. Which don't do anything outside of their respective effects, and also happen to drastically increase your attunement cooldowns. This spec is basically, either wait ages before rotating (and just auto attack in the meantime, which isn't fun), or play fresh air and just spam the same ability every 4 seconds (which isn't fun).

    The elite spec mechanic should be something that synergises with the whole class (like new dodge mechanics that allow you to use different move sets), not something that you just add on top of it (like an additional cooldown). When I press Air Overload, I don't feel like I am preparing for a new combo that was not possible before. I just feel like I presser Air Overload, and that's it.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).
    Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

    That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is never an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

    To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

    That's a good idea. Especially if you dispel the buffs after overloading. Most overloads have a small radius- once again forcing a light armored, low health class to get in the enemy's face. The buffs you mentioned can either serve as added defense or offense for the Ele.

    Also, Overloads should have at least one stack of stability. It doesn't make sense that the main weakness of a Tempest is to interrupt. Theoretically, Tempests are unleashing tremendous amounts of power from built up energy, and one measly interrupt destroys that whole process.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    In PvE the overload mechanic feels fine actually. Yes, in the end of the day it's just a big AoE. However, they are moving AoEs and provide more than just damage. You get boons from them and you can get healing. Not the most exciting mechanic ever, but it's okay. The problem is in the competitive modes, where it often feels like you don't even get a new profession mechanic. You just don't want to use overloads that often because it's so trivial for an opponent to interrupt your 4 second cast and punish you with a 20 second attunement cooldown.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have to agree to some extent with the OP ...

    I think the problem is that Core ele already focuses on a single element at a time. Tempest does the same but adds Overload, which is itself underwhelming as a new 'flavour'. If Anet wanted to have more emphasis on singular elements above and beyond what core does, they should have had a more significant bonus for camping an element and a penalty for switching to another one.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭

    Tempest is mainly used for the stunbreak and overload air. The auras need to be buffed and/or powerful aura merged into tempest line because you're forced to go with air line to go offense in any fashion.

    Without overload air , fresh air is pretty weak.

    Tempest+ air is two specializations meaning you have the option of arcane/fire/earth/water (auras).

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).
    Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

    That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is never an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

    To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

    That's a good idea. Especially if you dispel the buffs after overloading. Most overloads have a small radius- once again forcing a light armored, low health class to get in the enemy's face. The buffs you mentioned can either serve as added defense or offense for the Ele.

    Also, Overloads should have at least one stack of stability. It doesn't make sense that the main weakness of a Tempest is to interrupt. Theoretically, Tempests are unleashing tremendous amounts of power from built up energy, and one measly interrupt destroys that whole process.

    You do have the option to receive one stack of stability while you channel your overload with the Harmonious Conduit talent. Though one could argue that this should be made baseline...

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mithos.9023 said:
    We know that tempest was the last elite which was designed, and I think you still feel this. You just have to look at the fiasco we had with the failed elite skill they introduced. A skill so completely worthless they had to create a new one. The new one was rushed as well as they had only few weeks till release and at least to me the result it is a bad skill again. But even, so I am not alone with this opinion I have to admit this one is controversial and there are people that like it.

    With auras as core mechanic for tempest is another problem. I can’t count how often auras were discussed here about how bad they are. You feel the difference in power on the utility as well. Flash freeze and feel the burn are as under powered as their respective aura. I can’t remember the last time anybody used these skills. Even before PoF the only skill I saw manly used was Eye of the storm in wvw for its super speed. But the main mechanic is not much better as well. Four aoe’s bound to your location, which are easily interrupted. Now if I look at the new nekro elite scourge you can see how it is done better. They got something quite similar only that they can choose to plant additional aoe targets at range. If tempests overloads could have a second storm at range, they probably would be much better received. Not to mention nekros shade skill will pulse on once activated no 4 second channel no risk of getting interrupted. Seems to me arenanet learned from the mistake tempest was and introduced solutions in the new specs, just they forgot to update the original.

    I do agree that others HoT elite specs as well as all of PoF specs are mutch better design. But then, I as an elementalist am stuck with the feeling of only having one interesting gameplay (Who plays core ele nowadays? Who plays core anything?). I do like weaver even if I feel like the non-sword dual attunement skills are very disappointing... I wouldn't be against a full Tempest rework at this point.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Patty.3268 said:
    What mechanic does Daredevil have that Thief doesn't? The third dodge? Yes, but that's not a change to the class mechanic itself (F-Skills). And if you don't feel you're preparing for a new combo when overloading your air attunement, then a third dodge should make you feel the same. Or playing almost every other Elite Spec. Because if you complain that Tempest only got 4 AOEs, then you should also complain about Warriors still using Adrenaline on both Elite Specs and just getting improved Burst Skills or one additional Burst Skill. Or Guards just getting their Virtues changed for both Specs. By your logic, those would also be failed design.

    I get you don't like how Tempest is implemented. That's fine. But just because you don't like it, it's still not a failed design. Because it DID change the way Ele is played.

    All utility that do different things then the core class as they are that eliet only as well as having dodge effects not so much getting a 3ed dodge.

    At best tempest gets aoe auras with out needing to get powerful aura that it every thing else on tempest is coved by the core ele.

    Added note mez elite spec got some of the most mechanic in the game added to them for there elite spec its out right crazy on the level they got as a class vs there core class.

    You seem to not understand what core ele is and what it can do vs what tempest can do. A lot of new ppl cant see the problem because they only played the game with tempest and never played core ele with out the tempest chose.

    Tempest got a few stun brakes a boon shair and aoe auras with out the need for powerful aura that really it. Even the overlode effects are not addeding any thing new to the ele class over all that why ppl call them just AoE.

    Tempest is the worst elite spec added to this game ontop of ele class being one of the weakest classes in the game. The only reason why weaver is of use is because it act less like an ele and more like the other classes in the game as if anet cant make ele type of classes work.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Patty.3268Patty.3268 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You seem to not understand what core ele is and what it can do vs what tempest can do. A lot of new ppl cant see the problem because they only played the game with tempest and never played core ele with out the tempest chose.

    Ele is my main since release, so I do know how Ele was before HoT. I'm not here to argue which Elite Spec or core class is best. My point from the beginning was: Elite Specs were meant to give each class new ways to play. Which is what every single Elite Spec does, including Tempest. Therefore, none of the Elite Specs is failed design.

    Before HoT, Eles would typically switch attunements every 2-3s. With Tempest, you get the option to stay in a specific attunement for longer and in turn get an additional AoE. While AoEs are not new to Ele, that option still doesn't exist for core Eles and changes the way you switch attunements. Tempest also allows for much easier aura generation then core Ele ever could and brings a group utility (group stunbreak, projectile hate via magnetic aura, increased endurance regeneration via virgor and ) that neither core Ele nor Weaver have. They have a bit of group utility, but not as much as Tempest. Also Tempest brings more survivability than core Ele or Weaver, allowing the Ele to be in front without dying right away. We could surely argue that some of the aspects I mentioned might need tweeks or buff, but they are still there and significant enough to change the way Ele is played. Which Tempest was meant to do, so it is not a failed design.

    @Mithos.9023 said:
    Now if I look at the new nekro elite scourge you can see how it is done better. They got something quite similar only that they can choose to plant additional aoe targets at range. If tempests overloads could have a second storm at range, they probably would be much better received. Not to mention nekros shade skill will pulse on once activated no 4 second channel no risk of getting interrupted. Seems to me arenanet learned from the mistake tempest was and introduced solutions in the new specs, just they forgot to update the original.

    I'm taking those lines to emphasize what I said earlier. There are people who don't like the way Tempest is implemented. Who think it needs buff, overloads should have been done like this or that. Technically, Scourge isn't so different from Tempest. Scourge still uses life force and has 5 Shroud AoE skills, although they are not tied to skills 1-5 but F1-F5. Necro always had life force, AoEs and its Shroud. So nothing new. But because some people like Scourge's implementation more than Tempest's, they call Tempest a failed design but not Scourge. But taking these personal preferences and favourites aside, either you call Tempest AND Scourge (and every other Elite Spec) a failed design, or none of them.

    There's a difference between something not achieving what it is meant to, and the same thing just not being the way you like.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    While I find certain things about the Tempest to be a bit lackluster, I attribute most of that to being out-powercreeped by PoF specs. I honestly really love the overload mechanic and appreciate that there is a drawback to using them. To me, that is healthy design unlike a lot of e-spec mechanics. Yes, it could be tweaked to become more up to date with the current meta, but I personally don't find issue with ANet's overall design approach for the spec.

  • I'm a bit mad they nerfed so much the air overload, in dmg, in number of hit, of targets ... even in 2018 after Pof; and now the electric discharge; like tempest fresh air was a thing in pvp theses 3 last years. :# Even in Pve, DPS comes from, for many, the FGS/hammer and the storm... the air overload alone is not that strong.
    But they fixed the fire attunement... a little compensation.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    Tempest is infinitely more fun than Weaver for me. I don't judge a spec by whether you use their weapon or not. Spellbreaker Dagger blows, yet I enjoy(ed) playing the spec. Tempest may lack the boon support, but it's the most fun I had playing a healer in any game ever.

    Bite me.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Patty.3268 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You seem to not understand what core ele is and what it can do vs what tempest can do. A lot of new ppl cant see the problem because they only played the game with tempest and never played core ele with out the tempest chose.

    Ele is my main since release, so I do know how Ele was before HoT. I'm not here to argue which Elite Spec or core class is best. My point from the beginning was: Elite Specs were meant to give each class new ways to play. Which is what every single Elite Spec does, including Tempest. Therefore, none of the Elite Specs is failed design.

    I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele. There is no way that the way Overload is implemented, that it brings any sense of a new way to play. It changes nothing about how you think or play the ele, other than the fact you have this additional skill that you add to your rotation. Tempest as an espec that is supposed to be meant as a NEW way to play a class simply does not deliver.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • would be cool if warhorn was actually useful lol

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Patty.3268Patty.3268 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele.

    But isn't that true for every other elite spec, too? Remove Weaver's ability to have two different attunements and you have core Ele. Remove Tomes and you have core Guard. Remove Mirage's Ambush Skills and Mirror Cloak, and you got a Mesmer. Remove the abilty to megre with your pet and you're back to being core Ranger. It becomes even easier for Specs like Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter or Scourge. Remove boon removal from Spellbreaker and it becomes core Warrior again, with Adreanline and Burst Skills being nothing new. When it comes to Dragonhunter and Scourge, you don't even need to remove something, because Virtues and Shroud Skills were just changed when compared to the core versions, but have been there anyway.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    would be cool if warhorn was actually useful lol

    Its lazily with some effect throw on. The water field that move is a cool ideal but its slower then swiftness movement and its a projectile so it will be eaten by the counters.
    It seems nice but when you dig into its effect cd and real use you will find its lacking and see that its a real last min add to the class that dose not realty work all that well.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Patty.3268 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele.

    But isn't that true for every other elite spec, too? Remove Weaver's ability to have two different attunements and you have core Ele. Remove Tomes and you have core Guard. Remove Mirage's Ambush Skills and Mirror Cloak, and you got a Mesmer. Remove the abilty to megre with your pet and you're back to being core Ranger. It becomes even easier for Specs like Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter or Scourge. Remove boon removal from Spellbreaker and it becomes core Warrior again, with Adreanline and Burst Skills being nothing new. When it comes to Dragonhunter and Scourge, you don't even need to remove something, because Virtues and Shroud Skills were just changed when compared to the core versions, but have been there anyway.

    I would say no ... most of the Especs actually do change more than just how I rotate my skills, unlike Tempest.

    For example, removing boon removal from Spellbreaker wouldn't make it feel like warrior. I play my spellbreaker in a significantly different manner than how I do my warrior, and it doesn't even have anything to do with boon removals. It simply has different effects that translate into a different way to play it.

    Another example is Scourge ... you can't play scourge like core or Reaper if you WANTED to. It's shroud skills interface with life force in a way that is completely different than the other two. It's probably the BEST example I can think of an espec giving a class a completely different flavour.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Patty.3268Patty.3268 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel this thread is kind of running in circles, so I will post a last time and be happy with whatever comes out of this thread.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Tempest doesn't change your rotation, you just add an AOE here and there. Mirage and Daredevil allow different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Tempest always does the same thing no matter what: Wait 4 seconds for an AOE, then continue your rotation...

    I will rephrase this and explain why afterwards: Daredevil doesn't change your rotation, you just add a dodge here and there. Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Daredevil always does the same thing no matter what: Wait a few seconds for a dodge, the continue your rotation...

    This is why I think either every Elite Spec should be called failed design or none of them (btw, I think the latter is the case). Every reason that is given why Tempest is a failed design can be applied to every other elite Spec, too. For example, you bring up Daredevil's weapon and utility skills and how they allow different skills combinations to adapt your gameplay. You're absolutely right with that, but shouldn't we be fair and bring up Tempest's weapon and utility skills, too? Because they allow to adapt your gameplay, too. For example, if you need projectile hate in fractals, tempest is the best way to generate magnetic auras that you can also grant to the group. Take Eye of the Storm and Gale Song and you have group Stunbreaks.

    But like I said, I feel this discussion is running in circles and won't get anywhere. All I wanted to point out is that every reason given for both, Tempest being a failed design and not being a failed design, can be said about every other Elite Spec, too. So either all should be called failed designs or none of them. Just calling some of them failed is unfair.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    the issue i have is with tempest is that overloads feel more like a scrapped elite glyph they had lying around rather then something made for tempest. (also aura's aren't that great)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Patty.3268 said:
    I feel this thread is kind of running in circles, so I will post a last time and be happy with whatever comes out of this thread.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Tempest doesn't change your rotation, you just add an AOE here and there. Mirage and Daredevil allow different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Tempest always does the same thing no matter what: Wait 4 seconds for an AOE, then continue your rotation...

    I will rephrase this and explain why afterwards: Daredevil doesn't change your rotation, you just add a dodge here and there. Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Daredevil always does the same thing no matter what: Wait a few seconds for a dodge, the continue your rotation...

    Daredevil has options to customize their dodges on top of having a 3rd one. It allows repositioning and risktaking that wouldn't be possible otherwise, which do have effect on how you use your others abilities. It's also less restrictive and niche to use than an overload. And no, I'm sorry but you'll have to explain me exactly how "Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills" instead of simply copy/pasting what I said... Overloading doesn't offer more opportunities. It only deals damage, with a few short buffs here and there.

  • Tempest is actually one of my favourite elite specs, but I like this suggestion nonetheless. This part:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

    reminds me a lot of the Spear of Archemorus and Urn of Saint Viktor from GW1. It might be better if you have to do something active to gain buff stacks, though, rather than just waiting in a certain attunement.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wish the oveloads where more hold and use the longer you hold the effect the stronger it becomes with a max of say 5 sec hold time and a max of 10 use time. That would changes ele game play a lot.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i personally would add an interaction between overload and aura's (not just your own aura's tho)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have trouble with the idea that Tempest is a failed design but somehow the other HoT Elites are not failed designs for pretty much the same thing.

    Dragonhunter changes your virtues but doesn't really change your play. This is really apparent when we look at Firebrand and we see what it really means to change how Guardian is played by giving it 15 new attacks from the tomes alone. Daredevil gets a third dodge and if you consider Tempest's Overloads as not enough of a change then Daredevil fits that too. Glint doesn't change much of anything in regards to Revenant play. You pop your True Nature to extend boons. Seriously? That's a change in playstyle? Berserker gets Primal Burst which is just a powered up super attack. Kinda like an extra elite skill. Reaper is core Necromancer with a stronger death theme and a really cool new shroud mode. Scourge shows us what truly changing a Necromancer looks like. Chronomancer blows up clones to change time itself but that's just a new application for the destruction of your clones. Oh and Scrapper ....... oooooooooooooohhhhhh Scrapper. Function Gyro is more useless than what the Tempest has. At least what the Tempest can do with Overload can be useful at any time, anywhere. Function Gyro is only useful in competitive modes under specific circumstances. It is unusable in most PvE play. Tempest is nowhere near as bad as Scrapper. The only two that really change how you play in the way that the OP seems to indicate are Druid, Celestial Avatar truly is different, and ...... hmmm that's it.

    Now, I say that to highlight that outside of Ranger most of the professions don't see any true change to how they are played until PoF. All of the HoT Elites are kinda like baby steps as ANet tried to figure out what exactly they were going to do. Most of the PoF Elites actually do change the way you play. I say most because ..... you know .... Deadeye isn't a biiiiiggg change. What I think the other HoT Elites do better than Tempest, well some of them anyway, is have the small changes that are made be more useful. Daredevil's third dodge is not a change to mechanics. While it gets new skill combinations the same is true for Tempest. What separates Daredevil from Tempest is not that Daredevil changed Thief but that it made it more powerful and that the changes synergize very well. The same is true of Chronomancer. The basic mechanic for Chronmancer is "break clones to do something." Conceptional this is no different than Overload. In practice, though Chronomancer is more powerful. I see a lot of responses, especially in regards to Daredevil, confuse changes that made the profession more powerful with changes that actually changed the profession itself.

    Simply put, most of the Elites in HoT don't actually change the profession mechanic. When you compare HoT Elites to PoF Elites it becomes clear that they don't actually change the profession. HoT Elite just opens up new player options. What happens with a lot of the HoT Elites is that some of them are more useful than Tempest. One could argue that Tempest is not that useful. But one cannot argue that Tempest is the only failed Elite on the grounds that Overload doesn't change how it players. This is a critique that HoT faces in general and I think it would be safer to assume that Tempest is not failed but underpowered.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @Patty.3268 said:
    I feel this thread is kind of running in circles, so I will post a last time and be happy with whatever comes out of this thread.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Tempest doesn't change your rotation, you just add an AOE here and there. Mirage and Daredevil allow different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Tempest always does the same thing no matter what: Wait 4 seconds for an AOE, then continue your rotation...

    I will rephrase this and explain why afterwards: Daredevil doesn't change your rotation, you just add a dodge here and there. Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Daredevil always does the same thing no matter what: Wait a few seconds for a dodge, the continue your rotation...

    Daredevil has options to customize their dodges on top of having a 3rd one. It allows repositioning and risktaking that wouldn't be possible otherwise, which do have effect on how you use your others abilities. It's also less restrictive and niche to use than an overload. And no, I'm sorry but you'll have to explain me exactly how "Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills" instead of simply copy/pasting what I said... Overloading doesn't offer more opportunities. It only deals damage, with a few short buffs here and there.

    Tempest has options to customize and otherwise change what their Overloads do. Yes, Daredevil allows for repositioning and risk-taking but it's not because the Daredevil changed the profession. It just gave it a new toy to play with. Tempest and Overloads change the way you play Elementalist too, just not in the fashion that it changes Daredevil. Overload 100% effects how you use other abilities and their use will change the timing of when you switch elements and how long you remain in one. If you consider a third dodge as changing Thief then Overload changes Elementalist too. I find the idea that Tempest doesn't change your rotation laughable as making use of Overloads means you have to remain in your element longer and rotation is not just about the buttons you press but the timing of attacks too. Overload changes timing and thus changes rotation. What you are arguing about is whether or not those changes are useful. Daredevil being less restrictive or niche does not mean that its mechanics changed it and Overload doesn't. This is an argument for the usefulness of a change, not on whether or not the change actually occurred. Complaining about dealing damage and short buffs is an argument about the usefulness of it, not one that about whether or not Tempest constitutes a change.

    100% Tempest is a change. All of your arguments are basically about whether or not that change is actually useful or competitive. If the changes that Daredevil makes actually counts as changing game play then 100% Tempest counts too. If you argue that Tempest doesn't then that also means that Daredevil's aren't either. The difference between the two is not about the act of change, as they both do, but whether or not that change is good or useful.

    Also, hands down, Scrapper got it worse than Tempest in terms of the new changes actually being useful.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't like Tempest design. "Please stun me in 5s when my stunbreak is ready"

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Dace.8173 said:
    I have trouble with the idea that Tempest is a failed design but somehow the other HoT Elites are not failed designs for pretty much the same thing.

    Dragonhunter changes your virtues but doesn't really change your play. This is really apparent when we look at Firebrand and we see what it really means to change how Guardian is played by giving it 15 new attacks from the tomes alone. Daredevil gets a third dodge and if you consider Tempest's Overloads as not enough of a change then Daredevil fits that too. Glint doesn't change much of anything in regards to Revenant play. You pop your True Nature to extend boons. Seriously? That's a change in playstyle? Berserker gets Primal Burst which is just a powered up super attack. Kinda like an extra elite skill. Reaper is core Necromancer with a stronger death theme and a really cool new shroud mode. Scourge shows us what truly changing a Necromancer looks like. Chronomancer blows up clones to change time itself but that's just a new application for the destruction of your clones. Oh and Scrapper ....... oooooooooooooohhhhhh Scrapper. Function Gyro is more useless than what the Tempest has. At least what the Tempest can do with Overload can be useful at any time, anywhere. Function Gyro is only useful in competitive modes under specific circumstances. It is unusable in most PvE play. Tempest is nowhere near as bad as Scrapper. The only two that really change how you play in the way that the OP seems to indicate are Druid, Celestial Avatar truly is different, and ...... hmmm that's it.

    Now, I say that to highlight that outside of Ranger most of the professions don't see any true change to how they are played until PoF. All of the HoT Elites are kinda like baby steps as ANet tried to figure out what exactly they were going to do. Most of the PoF Elites actually do change the way you play. I say most because ..... you know .... Deadeye isn't a biiiiiggg change. What I think the other HoT Elites do better than Tempest, well some of them anyway, is have the small changes that are made be more useful. Daredevil's third dodge is not a change to mechanics. While it gets new skill combinations the same is true for Tempest. What separates Daredevil from Tempest is not that Daredevil changed Thief but that it made it more powerful and that the changes synergize very well. The same is true of Chronomancer. The basic mechanic for Chronmancer is "break clones to do something." Conceptional this is no different than Overload. In practice, though Chronomancer is more powerful. I see a lot of responses, especially in regards to Daredevil, confuse changes that made the profession more powerful with changes that actually changed the profession itself.

    Simply put, most of the Elites in HoT don't actually change the profession mechanic. When you compare HoT Elites to PoF Elites it becomes clear that they don't actually change the profession. HoT Elite just opens up new player options. What happens with a lot of the HoT Elites is that some of them are more useful than Tempest. One could argue that Tempest is not that useful. But one cannot argue that Tempest is the only failed Elite on the grounds that Overload doesn't change how it players. This is a critique that HoT faces in general and I think it would be safer to assume that Tempest is not failed but underpowered.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @Patty.3268 said:
    I feel this thread is kind of running in circles, so I will post a last time and be happy with whatever comes out of this thread.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Tempest doesn't change your rotation, you just add an AOE here and there. Mirage and Daredevil allow different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Tempest always does the same thing no matter what: Wait 4 seconds for an AOE, then continue your rotation...

    I will rephrase this and explain why afterwards: Daredevil doesn't change your rotation, you just add a dodge here and there. Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Daredevil always does the same thing no matter what: Wait a few seconds for a dodge, the continue your rotation...

    Daredevil has options to customize their dodges on top of having a 3rd one. It allows repositioning and risktaking that wouldn't be possible otherwise, which do have effect on how you use your others abilities. It's also less restrictive and niche to use than an overload. And no, I'm sorry but you'll have to explain me exactly how "Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills" instead of simply copy/pasting what I said... Overloading doesn't offer more opportunities. It only deals damage, with a few short buffs here and there.

    Tempest has options to customize and otherwise change what their Overloads do. Yes, Daredevil allows for repositioning and risk-taking but it's not because the Daredevil changed the profession. It just gave it a new toy to play with. Tempest and Overloads change the way you play Elementalist too, just not in the fashion that it changes Daredevil. Overload 100% effects how you use other abilities and their use will change the timing of when you switch elements and how long you remain in one. If you consider a third dodge as changing Thief then Overload changes Elementalist too. I find the idea that Tempest doesn't change your rotation laughable as making use of Overloads means you have to remain in your element longer and rotation is not just about the buttons you press but the timing of attacks too. Overload changes timing and thus changes rotation. What you are arguing about is whether or not those changes are useful. Daredevil being less restrictive or niche does not mean that its mechanics changed it and Overload doesn't. This is an argument for the usefulness of a change, not on whether or not the change actually occurred. Complaining about dealing damage and short buffs is an argument about the usefulness of it, not one that about whether or not Tempest constitutes a change.

    100% Tempest is a change. All of your arguments are basically about whether or not that change is actually useful or competitive. If the changes that Daredevil makes actually counts as changing game play then 100% Tempest counts too. If you argue that Tempest doesn't then that also means that Daredevil's aren't either. The difference between the two is not about the act of change, as they both do, but whether or not that change is good or useful.

    Also, hands down, Scrapper got it worse than Tempest in terms of the new changes actually being useful.

    Thinking about it, Tempest might indeed change the way you play elementalist. I think the real issue I have with it is that in order to use that mechanic, you need to adobt an incredibly boring and slow gameplay, that doesn't offer any flexibility. Yes, now that I'm writing it, I think that flexibility is what really bothers me: Overloads always do the same thing with the same restrictions, as opposed to most others specs. The Daredevil and Mirage can use their dodges mutch more creatively than the Tempest can use their overloads.

    On the topic of the Scrapper, it is indeed hard not to agree that the new mechanic is rather laughable. I see 2 main reasons why this doesn't bother me as mutch as for Tempest: First, that new mechanic doesn't have any combat usefulness. Put it simply, you don't have to make room for it in your rotation, while the Tempest needs to wait for very long Overload cooldowns in order to make use of their class mechanic.
    The other reason I see is that the Scrapper, with the toolbelt, effectively has twice as many additional utility skills than others elite specs. This eases the feeling of having a lackluster mechanic.

    That makes me think about the fact that the Tempest also has ridiculously miserable utility skills compared to any other elite spec... Compared to any other core spec actually. I don't feel like I have anything to compensate for my disappointment in the new mechanic. I wouldn't even use Rebound as a utility skill if it had half the cooldown, that's how miserable the elite feels. The fact that core Elementalist elite skills don't fall very far behind on the scale of miserability doesn't help either.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Thinking about it, Tempest might indeed change the way you play elementalist. I think the real issue I have with it is that in order to use that mechanic, you need to adobt an incredibly boring and slow gameplay, that doesn't offer any flexibility. Yes, now that I'm writing it, I think that flexibility is what really bothers me: Overloads always do the same thing with the same restrictions, as opposed to most others specs. The Daredevil and Mirage can use their dodges mutch more creatively than the Tempest can use their overloads.

    Mirage is more useful in part because it's a PoF Elite and just about all of them are more powerful and go a lot further in changing how you play. Daredevil dodge is nothing compared to Mirage dodge. Daredevil just gets an extra dodge. Mirage literally changes the nature of dodging itseful.

    On the topic of the Scrapper, it is indeed hard not to agree that the new mechanic is rather laughable. I see 2 main reasons why this doesn't bother me as mutch as for Tempest: First, that new mechanic doesn't have any combat usefulness. Put it simply, you don't have to make room for it in your rotation, while the Tempest needs to wait for very long Overload cooldowns in order to make use of their class mechanic.
    The other reason I see is that the Scrapper, with the toolbelt, effectively has twice as many additional utility skills than others elite specs. This eases the feeling of having a lackluster mechanic.

    Toolbelts don't count as that is an Engineer-mechanic, not a Scrapper mechanic. Saying that toolbelt mitigates is like saying changing elements mitigates for Tempest. If we were to take toolbelt into account then we would have to take all the possible weapon combinations Elementalist gets from switching elements and the new ones warhorn adds. Scrapper, itself, doesn't change the nature of toolbelt. Core Engineer and Holosmith use toolbelt too and that is just as normal of a function for Engineer as switching elements is for an Elementalist. If toolbelts counts, changing elements does too. As for effectively having twice as many utility skills .... do you actually play Engineer? Toolbelt skills are useful but there are not a replacement or an addition to utility skills.

    Function Gyro is the mechanic here. It is not only lackluster, it is useless in several cases. Nothing about toolbelt changes that for Scrapper. The only time you can use Function Gyro is in competitive modes when someone goes down, either to stomp them or to revive them. So basically the Scrapper mechanic doesn't work until someone is ready to die. Overloads have an effect at all times. Function Gyro is useless in PvE. Overload is useful in PvE. The fact that it doesn't have a combat usefulness makes it worse than Overload. Yeah, you have to make rotation adjustments, but every Elite that is actually worth talking about does this. In order to use Function Gyro you have to interrupt your rotation. 100% if you intend to actually use Function Gyro you are going to have to make room for it in your rotation, only unlike a normal rotation change it's an unplanned rotation move. You can plan your use of Overload into your rotation. Can't do that with Function Gyro. Overload changes your rotation but it changes it in a positive way. People who are good with Scrapper can make great use of Function Gyro. There is some strength to being able to rez someone without putting yourself in harms way or stomping someone without putting yourself in harms way. But outside of that, you don't use it. Overload has far more uses and far more frequent uses, and doesn't require people to be in downed state before you get a chance to use it. Really the whole rotation argument is pointless. If you don't like changes to your rotation then you aren't really going to like much about this game as all new mechanics affect your rotation in some form or fashion. Skill buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Weapon buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Changes to runes and sigils changes your rotation. All changes to a profession change rotation. Rotations are meant to be updated to take into account new conditions.

    That makes me think about the fact that the Tempest also has ridiculously miserable utility skills compared to any other elite spec... Compared to any other core spec actually. I don't feel like I have anything to compensate for my disappointment in the new mechanic. I wouldn't even use Rebound as a utility skill if it had half the cooldown, that's how miserable the elite feels. The fact that core Elementalist elite skills don't fall very far behind on the scale of miserability doesn't help either.

    You clearly have not played Scrapper. Gyros are useless. More useless than Tempest Shouts. They have been hit with so many nerfs that I can't think of a metabuild that makes use of them. The only useful Gyro is Stealth Gyro, the elite. That's it. Recent changes to Gyros made taking them to make use of their toolbelt skill even pointless. Hands down, in almost every way, Tempest is better than Scrapper in terms of Elite mechanic and new utility. What makes Scrapper any good these days are all related to how well you can pair the Scrapper trait line with the rest of Engineer. But most Scrapper players get little to no use out of Scrapper's mechanic and utilities. I run Scrapper as my WvW condi build because I like the barriers it generates and I only make use of Stealth Gyro for moving across the map and attempting escapes. A lot of people who are good with Scrapper are just good Engineer players in general and are relying on the strength of Core Engineer to carry what they enjoy about Scrapper.

  • It definitely feels like a rushed spec, but it's not the only one in the game (look at Renegade), and it's not that bad. I find FA Tempest incredibly fun in open-world PvE because of the AoE.

    Warhorn's playstyle is bland, though, with half its skills being different variations of slow forward-moving hit boxes, but there's still interesting stuff there.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DiogoSilva.7089 said:
    It definitely feels like a rushed spec, but it's not the only one in the game (look at Renegade), and it's not that bad. I find FA Tempest incredibly fun in open-world PvE because of the AoE.

    Warhorn's playstyle is bland, though, with half its skills being different variations of slow forward-moving hit boxes, but there's still interesting stuff there.

    I wish tempest at least had a strong boon that hits 10 targets like renegade's alacrity, vigor and protection are not enofe for a "support" roll.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Thinking about it, Tempest might indeed change the way you play elementalist. I think the real issue I have with it is that in order to use that mechanic, you need to adobt an incredibly boring and slow gameplay, that doesn't offer any flexibility. Yes, now that I'm writing it, I think that flexibility is what really bothers me: Overloads always do the same thing with the same restrictions, as opposed to most others specs. The Daredevil and Mirage can use their dodges mutch more creatively than the Tempest can use their overloads.

    Mirage is more useful in part because it's a PoF Elite and just about all of them are more powerful and go a lot further in changing how you play. Daredevil dodge is nothing compared to Mirage dodge. Daredevil just gets an extra dodge. Mirage literally changes the nature of dodging itseful.

    On the topic of the Scrapper, it is indeed hard not to agree that the new mechanic is rather laughable. I see 2 main reasons why this doesn't bother me as mutch as for Tempest: First, that new mechanic doesn't have any combat usefulness. Put it simply, you don't have to make room for it in your rotation, while the Tempest needs to wait for very long Overload cooldowns in order to make use of their class mechanic.
    The other reason I see is that the Scrapper, with the toolbelt, effectively has twice as many additional utility skills than others elite specs. This eases the feeling of having a lackluster mechanic.

    Toolbelts don't count as that is an Engineer-mechanic, not a Scrapper mechanic. Saying that toolbelt mitigates is like saying changing elements mitigates for Tempest. If we were to take toolbelt into account then we would have to take all the possible weapon combinations Elementalist gets from switching elements and the new ones warhorn adds. Scrapper, itself, doesn't change the nature of toolbelt. Core Engineer and Holosmith use toolbelt too and that is just as normal of a function for Engineer as switching elements is for an Elementalist. If toolbelts counts, changing elements does too. As for effectively having twice as many utility skills .... do you actually play Engineer? Toolbelt skills are useful but there are not a replacement or an addition to utility skills.

    Function Gyro is the mechanic here. It is not only lackluster, it is useless in several cases. Nothing about toolbelt changes that for Scrapper. The only time you can use Function Gyro is in competitive modes when someone goes down, either to stomp them or to revive them. So basically the Scrapper mechanic doesn't work until someone is ready to die. Overloads have an effect at all times. Function Gyro is useless in PvE. Overload is useful in PvE. The fact that it doesn't have a combat usefulness makes it worse than Overload. Yeah, you have to make rotation adjustments, but every Elite that is actually worth talking about does this. In order to use Function Gyro you have to interrupt your rotation. 100% if you intend to actually use Function Gyro you are going to have to make room for it in your rotation, only unlike a normal rotation change it's an unplanned rotation move. You can plan your use of Overload into your rotation. Can't do that with Function Gyro. Overload changes your rotation but it changes it in a positive way. People who are good with Scrapper can make great use of Function Gyro. There is some strength to being able to rez someone without putting yourself in harms way or stomping someone without putting yourself in harms way. But outside of that, you don't use it. Overload has far more uses and far more frequent uses, and doesn't require people to be in downed state before you get a chance to use it. Really the whole rotation argument is pointless. If you don't like changes to your rotation then you aren't really going to like much about this game as all new mechanics affect your rotation in some form or fashion. Skill buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Weapon buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Changes to runes and sigils changes your rotation. All changes to a profession change rotation. Rotations are meant to be updated to take into account new conditions.

    That makes me think about the fact that the Tempest also has ridiculously miserable utility skills compared to any other elite spec... Compared to any other core spec actually. I don't feel like I have anything to compensate for my disappointment in the new mechanic. I wouldn't even use Rebound as a utility skill if it had half the cooldown, that's how miserable the elite feels. The fact that core Elementalist elite skills don't fall very far behind on the scale of miserability doesn't help either.

    You clearly have not played Scrapper. Gyros are useless. More useless than Tempest Shouts. They have been hit with so many nerfs that I can't think of a metabuild that makes use of them. The only useful Gyro is Stealth Gyro, the elite. That's it. Recent changes to Gyros made taking them to make use of their toolbelt skill even pointless. Hands down, in almost every way, Tempest is better than Scrapper in terms of Elite mechanic and new utility. What makes Scrapper any good these days are all related to how well you can pair the Scrapper trait line with the rest of Engineer. But most Scrapper players get little to no use out of Scrapper's mechanic and utilities. I run Scrapper as my WvW condi build because I like the barriers it generates and I only make use of Stealth Gyro for moving across the map and attempting escapes. A lot of people who are good with Scrapper are just good Engineer players in general and are relying on the strength of Core Engineer to carry what they enjoy about Scrapper.

    You missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that toolbelt is a new mechanic, I'm saying that the fact that the new scrapper utilities also bring new toolbet skills increase the amount of "new stuff", which mitigates the disappointment of the mechanic (it should be noted that this mechanic is useful in PvE group content). And I'm sorry, but I'd take literally any gyro over any tempest shout (yes, including the elite one).

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    Thinking about it, Tempest might indeed change the way you play elementalist. I think the real issue I have with it is that in order to use that mechanic, you need to adobt an incredibly boring and slow gameplay, that doesn't offer any flexibility. Yes, now that I'm writing it, I think that flexibility is what really bothers me: Overloads always do the same thing with the same restrictions, as opposed to most others specs. The Daredevil and Mirage can use their dodges mutch more creatively than the Tempest can use their overloads.

    Mirage is more useful in part because it's a PoF Elite and just about all of them are more powerful and go a lot further in changing how you play. Daredevil dodge is nothing compared to Mirage dodge. Daredevil just gets an extra dodge. Mirage literally changes the nature of dodging itseful.

    On the topic of the Scrapper, it is indeed hard not to agree that the new mechanic is rather laughable. I see 2 main reasons why this doesn't bother me as mutch as for Tempest: First, that new mechanic doesn't have any combat usefulness. Put it simply, you don't have to make room for it in your rotation, while the Tempest needs to wait for very long Overload cooldowns in order to make use of their class mechanic.
    The other reason I see is that the Scrapper, with the toolbelt, effectively has twice as many additional utility skills than others elite specs. This eases the feeling of having a lackluster mechanic.

    Toolbelts don't count as that is an Engineer-mechanic, not a Scrapper mechanic. Saying that toolbelt mitigates is like saying changing elements mitigates for Tempest. If we were to take toolbelt into account then we would have to take all the possible weapon combinations Elementalist gets from switching elements and the new ones warhorn adds. Scrapper, itself, doesn't change the nature of toolbelt. Core Engineer and Holosmith use toolbelt too and that is just as normal of a function for Engineer as switching elements is for an Elementalist. If toolbelts counts, changing elements does too. As for effectively having twice as many utility skills .... do you actually play Engineer? Toolbelt skills are useful but there are not a replacement or an addition to utility skills.

    Function Gyro is the mechanic here. It is not only lackluster, it is useless in several cases. Nothing about toolbelt changes that for Scrapper. The only time you can use Function Gyro is in competitive modes when someone goes down, either to stomp them or to revive them. So basically the Scrapper mechanic doesn't work until someone is ready to die. Overloads have an effect at all times. Function Gyro is useless in PvE. Overload is useful in PvE. The fact that it doesn't have a combat usefulness makes it worse than Overload. Yeah, you have to make rotation adjustments, but every Elite that is actually worth talking about does this. In order to use Function Gyro you have to interrupt your rotation. 100% if you intend to actually use Function Gyro you are going to have to make room for it in your rotation, only unlike a normal rotation change it's an unplanned rotation move. You can plan your use of Overload into your rotation. Can't do that with Function Gyro. Overload changes your rotation but it changes it in a positive way. People who are good with Scrapper can make great use of Function Gyro. There is some strength to being able to rez someone without putting yourself in harms way or stomping someone without putting yourself in harms way. But outside of that, you don't use it. Overload has far more uses and far more frequent uses, and doesn't require people to be in downed state before you get a chance to use it. Really the whole rotation argument is pointless. If you don't like changes to your rotation then you aren't really going to like much about this game as all new mechanics affect your rotation in some form or fashion. Skill buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Weapon buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Changes to runes and sigils changes your rotation. All changes to a profession change rotation. Rotations are meant to be updated to take into account new conditions.

    That makes me think about the fact that the Tempest also has ridiculously miserable utility skills compared to any other elite spec... Compared to any other core spec actually. I don't feel like I have anything to compensate for my disappointment in the new mechanic. I wouldn't even use Rebound as a utility skill if it had half the cooldown, that's how miserable the elite feels. The fact that core Elementalist elite skills don't fall very far behind on the scale of miserability doesn't help either.

    You clearly have not played Scrapper. Gyros are useless. More useless than Tempest Shouts. They have been hit with so many nerfs that I can't think of a metabuild that makes use of them. The only useful Gyro is Stealth Gyro, the elite. That's it. Recent changes to Gyros made taking them to make use of their toolbelt skill even pointless. Hands down, in almost every way, Tempest is better than Scrapper in terms of Elite mechanic and new utility. What makes Scrapper any good these days are all related to how well you can pair the Scrapper trait line with the rest of Engineer. But most Scrapper players get little to no use out of Scrapper's mechanic and utilities. I run Scrapper as my WvW condi build because I like the barriers it generates and I only make use of Stealth Gyro for moving across the map and attempting escapes. A lot of people who are good with Scrapper are just good Engineer players in general and are relying on the strength of Core Engineer to carry what they enjoy about Scrapper.

    You missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that toolbelt is a new mechanic, I'm saying that the fact that the new scrapper utilities also bring new toolbet skills increase the amount of "new stuff", which mitigates the disappointment of the mechanic (it should be noted that this mechanic is useful in PvE group content). And I'm sorry, but I'd take literally any gyro over any tempest shout (yes, including the elite one).

    Sadly the tempest shouts are realy sub par even the super speed one is not that great (scraper dose better super speed up time with its leap though lighting fields as well as eng over all give better effects with its U).
    When they add in manta that are stronger then a full bar of shouts on tempste there is something very wrong with anet dev team and the lack of real fixes show anet dose not realty cair about balancing at all.

    If you see a dev ask them why one manta on FB can be used 3 times and it stronger then most shouts in the game (with one use of that manta) because i cant see any reason why other then raw power creep and such support power creep leave tempest in the dust comply.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    You missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that toolbelt is a new mechanic, I'm saying that the fact that the new scrapper utilities also bring new toolbet skills increase the amount of "new stuff", which mitigates the disappointment of the mechanic (it should be noted that this mechanic is useful in PvE group content). And I'm sorry, but I'd take literally any gyro over any tempest shout (yes, including the elite one).

    Yeah, no, I didn't. I stand by my point. Also, the amount of new stuff has no bearing on the quality of new stuff. Players desire quality over quanity. An Elite could give you 50 new toys and if all 50 them sucked hard then no one would care about the fact that it got 50 new things since they are never going to be used. Additionally, you can't bring up toolbelt skills in a discussion about Elite specialization mechanics. Toolbelt is not a Scrapper mechanic. It's an Engineer mechanic. If we give weight to toolbelt then we should give weight to attunements too. But we don't. We are judging Tempest solely on the grounds of the Elite mechanic introduces, Overloads. For that reason, we need to judge Scrapper on the grounds of the Elite mechanic it introduces, Function Gyro (I'm going to put aside the argument many Scrapper players make about not actually having an Elite mechanic). You can't judge Tempest on the grounds of its Elite mechanic and then not do the same for others and instead bring in the mechanics of the Core profession as mitigating factors for why they aren't bad. Otherwise, Tempest should be considered in terms of the Core mechanics too. But you are clearly not evaluating Tempest that way. You are evaluating it based on the grounds of Overload. Thus Scrapper needs to be evaluated on the grounds of Function Gyro.

    Plus, if we were to include toolbelt skills then we would need to include all the various attacks that Tempest gets from switching attunements with warhorn. You clearly are not doing that. You are clearly choosing to integrate general Core mechanics of other professions to evaluate them and then narrowly looking at Tempest and declaring it bad. Your analysis needs to be consistent in approach or it has no meaning. Either we are evaluating Elite spec mechanics, Overload v Function Gyro, or we are evaluating the Elite + Core, Tempest and Elementalist abilities v Scrapper and Engineer abilities. You can't mix and match though Overlad v Scrapper and Engineer mechanics. Comparing like things is an essential part of any discussion meant to evaluate the usefulness of mechanics.

    As for the toolbelt skills themselves, you clearly have not played Scrapper so I'll break this down, the toolbelts skills do not mitigate the disappointment of the mechanic for Scrapper players in any way. Most of them are bad. And in order to even have access to them, you would need to run the Scrapper utility skills too, which are also bad. Both Gyros and the toolbelts skills they have have undergone heavy nerfs, with some pretty strong ones having occurred within the past few months. You might have a point on toolbelt mitigation if toolbelt skills were selected separately from utility skills. So even if the Scrapper toolbelt skills were good, the fact that the Gyros are useless means that in order to get access to the toolbelt skill you would have to give up a utility slot to a bad skill that could otherwise be used for a better skill. Most of the good utility skills also have good toolbelt skills. So basically means that I could take a non-Gyro and get a good utility and toolbelt skill or I could pick a Gyro and just get maybe a good toolbelt skill (under the assumption that they are good, which they are not). This isn't mitigation. There was a time when Gyros were more useful and their toolbelt skills were useful but all of the nerfs it has undergone, even going as recently as early December, has crushed their viability.

    You may choose to take a Gyro over a Shout but you are purposely choosing to run with subpar skills. Shouts actually are better than Gyros. They don't depend on a very weak AI to work. Shouts have a very solid effect. Gyros fall prey to the same issues that all pets in this game suffer from. Worst yet, they actually aren't good. If you were to compare Tempest builds to Scrapper builds on meta sites you would see that there is a general consensus with folks who theorycraft and build meta builds that Shouts are useful. Hands down you will find more builds employing Shouts than you will Gyros. So sure, run with the Gyro. However, you are not making a good point by being willing to take skills that are deemed worse than Shouts by the meta build theorycrafting community.

  • I do agree with OP on a lot of points about tempest...and it does all go back to the fact that it was a rushed, shoe-horned in design.

    Other elite specs either significantly alter a class mechanic or how it is played (daredevil's new dodges, mirages god-mode dodge, chrono's continuum split, reaper's melee shroud, DH's virtues more suited for mobility/area control, holo's forge mode, glint's pulsing aoe effects juggling on the util skills integral to the design, etc.), or at the very least had a very useful weapon that opened up new possibilities (scrapper's hammer is great for an in-your-face bruiser role). Tempest had a crappy, boring weapon, with a set of boring-to-use overloads that has a conflicted design (you NEED a good mainhand auto-attack to justify staying in an attunement for 5s). The biggest in of all, is that they took overloads, which seem like they deserve to be some powerful burst tool, then tacked on a bunch of auras...which makes no freaking sense!! A dedicated auramancer spec COULD have been amazing, with the ability to dance between different auras that have more effect than standard auras. Instead, auras are used for nothing more than just a trigger for boon procs from traits. What a waste!

    Oh well...they are never going to fix it or even read this, so all this argument is quite pointless! Just be prepared for the next elite spec to be even worse, because ANet has shown they are incapable of developing good ele skills/specs.

  • Ryou.2398Ryou.2398 Member ✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).
    Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

    That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is never an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

    To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

    I love the animations, they are quite unique but I think it can be changed to make it slightly more interesting. But I love it and do not get bored with it, I just wish I can make animations bigger on my asura.

    If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy frequency and vibration Nikola Tesla.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It maybe a good ideal to make water line most of a boon support/ soft cc line and make tempest the all in healing support line. Right now water line is too all in healing and self support to ever be of use on any other build but a healing support set up or the self support never a real in-between that it trys to be. Tempest line trys to be too in-between for an support aimed roll. I am not so sure about losing aura share on water line but for sure water line should have aura boons and tempest line should have aura clears as well as stronger heals.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    It was a rushed spec

    just like all Ele things.

    Weaver feels just as clunky, if not more so.

  • weaver is a fun build, but it is marred by the amateurish balance attempts.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • and what do i mean by amateurish? Well there are a couple types of action:

    1 Strong and decisive based on deep knowledge, skill and confidence.
    2. A strategic approach with frequent updates, continuous integration and deployments that allows for frequent (daily in a pro setup) tiny targeted improvements and fast response.
    3..And then there's the balance going on here... 1+ year and 25 + slow patches that target random elements that have random effects that does not address key well understood issues that the customers discuss frequently.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • All they have to do is reverse all of the nerfs and we can test it again. Every bloody one and add back arcane fury in with existing might per swap.

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • And increase aura duration on ele.

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The mechanic or the utilities arent the problem.
    The traits are just whack all over the place.
    More streamlining and focus on auramancy, group support and healing would be better.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cicada.6298 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    It was a rushed spec

    just like all Ele things.

    Weaver feels just as clunky, if not more so.

    Sadly weaver was the longest worked on and then comply rest because they did not like it.

    Anet dose not understand mage class at all they treat every thing like physical attks and that just dose not work in a world of MAGIC.

    Any way tempest problem has a lot to do with core ele problems the lack of a real roll because each time they nerfed ele self healing it nerfed eles ability to heal and support others. It made healing power and out going healing way too needed to support for the ele class to the point that if your not going all in it is pointless to even try. So every thing that on tempest that has no support effect like stronger protection even self protection IS WORTHLESS.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:
    Any way tempest problem has a lot to do with core ele problems the lack of a real roll because each time they nerfed ele self healing it nerfed eles ability to heal and support others. It made healing power and out going healing way too needed to support for the ele class to the point that if your not going all in it is pointless to even try. So every thing that on tempest that has no support effect like stronger protection even self protection IS WORTHLESS.

    I agree 100% -- it feels really bad to be forced to take specific trait lines/traits/skills in order to fill a role that another class can fill much better without sacrificing as much.

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