I feel like Tempest is a failed design

When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is never an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

It was a rushed spec

Very rushed and never updated. WH was not the intended wepon it was going to be sword but they ran out of time and went with the easy wepon with the lowest animation to it.

This is why every ele in the game realty every player in the game should be hard on anet every time they update any other class in the game before tempest. It is truly the non class class of this game.

Elite specs were never said to provide a whole new class mechanic, but rather change the existing one or - if it's not changed like Daredevil's or Mirage's mechanics - at least give the classes new ways to play. Which Tempest did. Instead of just switching attunements every 2-3s, you wait for longer and get an additional powerful skill. Tempest also enabled Ele to easier survive on the front. Therefore, I don't think Tempest is a failed design - it's just not the design you would have liked or wanted to see. Your suggestions sound good, though.

@Patty.3268 said:Elite specs were never said to provide a whole new class mechanic, but rather change the existing one or - if it's not changed like Daredevil's or Mirage's mechanics - at least give the classes new ways to play. Which Tempest did. Instead of just switching attunements every 2-3s, you wait for longer and get an additional powerful skill. Tempest also enabled Ele to easier survive on the front. Therefore, I don't think Tempest is a failed design - it's just not the design you would have liked or wanted to see. Your suggestions sound good, though.

NO! comply wrong. Dardevil and Mirge have class mechanics that changed old class effect.

Tempest is less tankly then weaver because having heal and dmg -% on a classes with already low hp and def dose not make for a tank it makes for a dead melee class. I would go as far as saying core ele is more tankly then tempest. Tempest is a sub par support class who needs to go into melee to heal often causing it to die or to be cc to death.

@Patty.3268 said:Elite specs were never said to provide a whole new class mechanic, but rather change the existing one or - if it's not changed like Daredevil's or Mirage's mechanics - at least give the classes new ways to play. Which Tempest did. Instead of just switching attunements every 2-3s, you wait for longer and get an additional powerful skill. Tempest also enabled Ele to easier survive on the front. Therefore, I don't think Tempest is a failed design - it's just not the design you would have liked or wanted to see. Your suggestions sound good, though.

Mirage and Daredevil both have mechanics that change the way you play the class. Both happen to be on positionning and opportunities to strike.

The Tempest got... 4 AOE. Which don't do anything outside of their respective effects, and also happen to drastically increase your attunement cooldowns. This spec is basically, either wait ages before rotating (and just auto attack in the meantime, which isn't fun), or play fresh air and just spam the same ability every 4 seconds (which isn't fun).

The elite spec mechanic should be something that synergises with the whole class (like new dodge mechanics that allow you to use different move sets), not something that you just add on top of it (like an additional cooldown). When I press Air Overload, I don't feel like I am preparing for a new combo that was not possible before. I just feel like I presser Air Overload, and that's it.

What mechanic does Daredevil have that Thief doesn't? The third dodge? Yes, but that's not a change to the class mechanic itself (F-Skills). And if you don't feel you're preparing for a new combo when overloading your air attunement, then a third dodge should make you feel the same. Or playing almost every other Elite Spec. Because if you complain that Tempest only got 4 AOEs, then you should also complain about Warriors still using Adrenaline on both Elite Specs and just getting improved Burst Skills or one additional Burst Skill. Or Guards just getting their Virtues changed for both Specs. By your logic, those would also be failed design.

I get you don't like how Tempest is implemented. That's fine. But just because you don't like it, it's still not a failed design. Because it DID change the way Ele is played.

@"ROMANG.1903" said:When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually feel like you're releasing your accumulated power.

That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is never an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

That's a good idea. Especially if you dispel the buffs after overloading. Most overloads have a small radius- once again forcing a light armored, low health class to get in the enemy's face. The buffs you mentioned can either serve as added defense or offense for the Ele.

Also, Overloads should have at least one stack of stability. It doesn't make sense that the main weakness of a Tempest is to interrupt. Theoretically, Tempests are unleashing tremendous amounts of power from built up energy, and one measly interrupt destroys that whole process.

In PvE the overload mechanic feels fine actually. Yes, in the end of the day it's just a big AoE. However, they are moving AoEs and provide more than just damage. You get boons from them and you can get healing. Not the most exciting mechanic ever, but it's okay. The problem is in the competitive modes, where it often feels like you don't even get a new profession mechanic. You just don't want to use overloads that often because it's so trivial for an opponent to interrupt your 4 second cast and punish you with a 20 second attunement cooldown.

I have to agree to some extent with the OP ...

I think the problem is that Core ele already focuses on a single element at a time. Tempest does the same but adds Overload, which is itself underwhelming as a new 'flavour'. If Anet wanted to have more emphasis on singular elements above and beyond what core does, they should have had a more significant bonus for camping an element and a penalty for switching to another one.

Tempest is mainly used for the stunbreak and overload air. The auras need to be buffed and/or powerful aura merged into tempest line because you're forced to go with air line to go offense in any fashion.

Without overload air , fresh air is pretty weak.

Tempest+ air is two specializations meaning you have the option of arcane/fire/earth/water (auras).

@Stallic.2397 said:

@"ROMANG.1903" said:When I play my Tempest, I don't feel like I have a new class mechanic. I just feel like I have a few more AOE cooldowns, and that's about it. More damage cooldowns aren't interesting, and I feel like it would have been mutch more interesting to make something like lingering buffs that slowly build up while we're in their attunement and slowly decay while we're not in it. For example, you'd build more and more power while you remain in Fire attunement, you'd build precision/ferocity/movement speed in Air attunement, health regen in Water, toughness in earth... All of which would become weaker when you're not holding on that attunement (think Cliffside Hammer mechanic).Even overloads could remain if this is integrated, with something in the order of "overloading consumes all of that attunement's buff stacks and you can't build up any of it while your overload is on cooldown". That would actually

feel

like you're releasing your accumulated power.

That was just an example but the idea is that I feel like instead of simply having to wait (and waiting is

never

an interesting mechanic) 4 seconds to access to a boring channeled AOE, we should have something that would emphasize the "stay in an attunement longer to get benefits", while also pushing players to switch attunement at some point. New interractions between your attunements depending on the order and duration in which you swap to them instead of "spam Air overload with Fresh Air".

To conclude I feel like Tempest has a lot of potential, and I'd love to find a DPS build that doesn't relly on that fresh air thing... I'd like to feel mechanically competent when playing it. Is this too mutch to ask?

You do have the option to receive one stack of stability while you channel your overload with the Harmonious Conduit talent. Though one could argue that this should be made baseline...

We know that tempest was the last elite which was designed, and I think you still feel this. You just have to look at the fiasco we had with the failed elite skill they introduced. A skill so completely worthless they had to create a new one. The new one was rushed as well as they had only few weeks till release and at least to me the result it is a bad skill again. But even, so I am not alone with this opinion I have to admit this one is controversial and there are people that like it.

With auras as core mechanic for tempest is another problem. I can’t count how often auras were discussed here about how bad they are. You feel the difference in power on the utility as well. Flash freeze and feel the burn are as under powered as their respective aura. I can’t remember the last time anybody used these skills. Even before PoF the only skill I saw manly used was Eye of the storm in wvw for its super speed. But the main mechanic is not much better as well. Four aoe’s bound to your location, which are easily interrupted. Now if I look at the new nekro elite scourge you can see how it is done better. They got something quite similar only that they can choose to plant additional aoe targets at range. If tempests overloads could have a second storm at range, they probably would be much better received. Not to mention nekros shade skill will pulse on once activated no 4 second channel no risk of getting interrupted. Seems to me arenanet learned from the mistake tempest was and introduced solutions in the new specs, just they forgot to update the original.

@Mithos.9023 said:We know that tempest was the last elite which was designed, and I think you still feel this. You just have to look at the fiasco we had with the failed elite skill they introduced. A skill so completely worthless they had to create a new one. The new one was rushed as well as they had only few weeks till release and at least to me the result it is a bad skill again. But even, so I am not alone with this opinion I have to admit this one is controversial and there are people that like it.

With auras as core mechanic for tempest is another problem. I can’t count how often auras were discussed here about how bad they are. You feel the difference in power on the utility as well. Flash freeze and feel the burn are as under powered as their respective aura. I can’t remember the last time anybody used these skills. Even before PoF the only skill I saw manly used was Eye of the storm in wvw for its super speed. But the main mechanic is not much better as well. Four aoe’s bound to your location, which are easily interrupted. Now if I look at the new nekro elite scourge you can see how it is done better. They got something quite similar only that they can choose to plant additional aoe targets at range. If tempests overloads could have a second storm at range, they probably would be much better received. Not to mention nekros shade skill will pulse on once activated no 4 second channel no risk of getting interrupted. Seems to me arenanet learned from the mistake tempest was and introduced solutions in the new specs, just they forgot to update the original.

I do agree that others HoT elite specs as well as all of PoF specs are mutch better design. But then, I as an elementalist am stuck with the feeling of only having one interesting gameplay (Who plays core ele nowadays? Who plays core anything?). I do like weaver even if I feel like the non-sword dual attunement skills are very disappointing... I wouldn't be against a full Tempest rework at this point.

@Patty.3268 said:What mechanic does Daredevil have that Thief doesn't? The third dodge? Yes, but that's not a change to the class mechanic itself (F-Skills). And if you don't feel you're preparing for a new combo when overloading your air attunement, then a third dodge should make you feel the same. Or playing almost every other Elite Spec. Because if you complain that Tempest only got 4 AOEs, then you should also complain about Warriors still using Adrenaline on both Elite Specs and just getting improved Burst Skills or one additional Burst Skill. Or Guards just getting their Virtues changed for both Specs. By your logic, those would also be failed design.

I get you don't like how Tempest is implemented. That's fine. But just because you don't like it, it's still not a failed design. Because it DID change the way Ele is played.

All utility that do different things then the core class as they are that eliet only as well as having dodge effects not so much getting a 3ed dodge.

At best tempest gets aoe auras with out needing to get powerful aura that it every thing else on tempest is coved by the core ele.

Added note mez elite spec got some of the most mechanic in the game added to them for there elite spec its out right crazy on the level they got as a class vs there core class.

You seem to not understand what core ele is and what it can do vs what tempest can do. A lot of new ppl cant see the problem because they only played the game with tempest and never played core ele with out the tempest chose.

Tempest got a few stun brakes a boon shair and aoe auras with out the need for powerful aura that really it. Even the overlode effects are not addeding any thing new to the ele class over all that why ppl call them just AoE.

Tempest is the worst elite spec added to this game ontop of ele class being one of the weakest classes in the game. The only reason why weaver is of use is because it act less like an ele and more like the other classes in the game as if anet cant make ele type of classes work.

@Jski.6180 said:You seem to not understand what core ele is and what it can do vs what tempest can do. A lot of new ppl cant see the problem because they only played the game with tempest and never played core ele with out the tempest chose.

Ele is my main since release, so I do know how Ele was before HoT. I'm not here to argue which Elite Spec or core class is best. My point from the beginning was: Elite Specs were meant to give each class new ways to play. Which is what every single Elite Spec does, including Tempest. Therefore, none of the Elite Specs is failed design.

Before HoT, Eles would typically switch attunements every 2-3s. With Tempest, you get the option to stay in a specific attunement for longer and in turn get an additional AoE. While AoEs are not new to Ele, that option still doesn't exist for core Eles and changes the way you switch attunements. Tempest also allows for much easier aura generation then core Ele ever could and brings a group utility (group stunbreak, projectile hate via magnetic aura, increased endurance regeneration via virgor and ) that neither core Ele nor Weaver have. They have a bit of group utility, but not as much as Tempest. Also Tempest brings more survivability than core Ele or Weaver, allowing the Ele to be in front without dying right away. We could surely argue that some of the aspects I mentioned might need tweeks or buff, but they are still there and significant enough to change the way Ele is played. Which Tempest was meant to do, so it is not a failed design.

@Mithos.9023 said:Now if I look at the new nekro elite scourge you can see how it is done better. They got something quite similar only that they can choose to plant additional aoe targets at range. If tempests overloads could have a second storm at range, they probably would be much better received. Not to mention nekros shade skill will pulse on once activated no 4 second channel no risk of getting interrupted. Seems to me arenanet learned from the mistake tempest was and introduced solutions in the new specs, just they forgot to update the original.

I'm taking those lines to emphasize what I said earlier. There are people who don't like the way Tempest is implemented. Who think it needs buff, overloads should have been done like this or that. Technically, Scourge isn't so different from Tempest. Scourge still uses life force and has 5 Shroud AoE skills, although they are not tied to skills 1-5 but F1-F5. Necro always had life force, AoEs and its Shroud. So nothing new. But because some people like Scourge's implementation more than Tempest's, they call Tempest a failed design but not Scourge. But taking these personal preferences and favourites aside, either you call Tempest AND Scourge (and every other Elite Spec) a failed design, or none of them.

There's a difference between something not achieving what it is meant to, and the same thing just not being the way you like.

While I find certain things about the Tempest to be a bit lackluster, I attribute most of that to being out-powercreeped by PoF specs. I honestly really love the overload mechanic and appreciate that there is a drawback to using them. To me, that is healthy design unlike a lot of e-spec mechanics. Yes, it could be tweaked to become more up to date with the current meta, but I personally don't find issue with ANet's overall design approach for the spec.

I'm a bit mad they nerfed so much the air overload, in dmg, in number of hit, of targets ... even in 2018 after Pof; and now the electric discharge; like tempest fresh air was a thing in pvp theses 3 last years. :# Even in Pve, DPS comes from, for many, the FGS/hammer and the storm... the air overload alone is not that strong.But they fixed the fire attunement... a little compensation.

Tempest is infinitely more fun than Weaver for me. I don't judge a spec by whether you use their weapon or not. Spellbreaker Dagger blows, yet I enjoy(ed) playing the spec. Tempest may lack the boon support, but it's the most fun I had playing a healer in any game ever.

@Patty.3268 said:

@Jski.6180 said:You seem to not understand what core ele is and what it can do vs what tempest can do. A lot of new ppl cant see the problem because they only played the game with tempest and never played core ele with out the tempest chose.

I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele. There is no way that the way Overload is implemented, that it brings any sense of a new way to play. It changes nothing about how you think or play the ele, other than the fact you have this additional skill that you add to your rotation. Tempest as an espec that is supposed to be meant as a NEW way to play a class simply does not deliver.

would be cool if warhorn was actually useful lol

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele.

But isn't that true for every other elite spec, too? Remove Weaver's ability to have two different attunements and you have core Ele. Remove Tomes and you have core Guard. Remove Mirage's Ambush Skills and Mirror Cloak, and you got a Mesmer. Remove the abilty to megre with your pet and you're back to being core Ranger. It becomes even easier for Specs like Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter or Scourge. Remove boon removal from Spellbreaker and it becomes core Warrior again, with Adreanline and Burst Skills being nothing new. When it comes to Dragonhunter and Scourge, you don't even need to remove something, because Virtues and Shroud Skills were just changed when compared to the core versions, but have been there anyway.

@Patty.3268 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:would be cool if warhorn was actually useful lol

Its lazily with some effect throw on. The water field that move is a cool ideal but its slower then swiftness movement and its a projectile so it will be eaten by the counters.It seems nice but when you dig into its effect cd and real use you will find its lacking and see that its a real last min add to the class that dose not realty work all that well.

@Patty.3268 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not sure that sentiment is echoed by most players, nor is it a fair assessment. To be frank, Tempest is simply Ele with the additional ability to Overload; remove Overload as a skill and you are EXACTLY to the same place you are with core Ele.

For example, removing boon removal from Spellbreaker wouldn't make it feel like warrior. I play my spellbreaker in a significantly different manner than how I do my warrior, and it doesn't even have anything to do with boon removals. It simply has different effects that translate into a different way to play it.

Another example is Scourge ... you can't play scourge like core or Reaper if you WANTED to. It's shroud skills interface with life force in a way that is completely different than the other two. It's probably the BEST example I can think of an espec giving a class a completely different flavour.