What if dodge was just a dodge?

Hey there,

What do you think about dodge being just a dodge? (* - look at IMPORTANT TAB)

• no additional effects*
• no stealth on dodge
• no condi-cleanse on dodge
• no damage on dodge*
• no stunbreaks on dodge
• no bombs on dodge
• no buffs on dodge*
• no additional skills on dodge

Once you dodge, you just dodge.

IMPORTANTI know that dodges are a very important part of the Daredevil and Mirage mechanics, so let's say they keep some of the critical and most important effects. There are things we can't change. Just don't make aby more Specs that have their mechanic tied to dodge.

I LOVE the fact that GW2 has a dodge mechanic and I think that this is one of the main factors that make the game so fluid and smooth. But I also think that dodge should always stay pure, so no one has a better or weaker one. Just to say - when your opponents dodge, you clearly know what they're doing, without guessing.

What do you think about it?

I think Arcane dodges could use some lovin.

I personally have no issues with dodge mechanics if you have to trait for it....... But the thought of having Arcane dodges tied to dodge without traiting is also enticing.

It SHOULD have been that way from the beginning. But ANET honestly believes attacking while evading or attacking while anything else is going on is smart, it really isn't.

The game could've made it big tbh if it was like that FROM THE BEGINNING. And as much as dodges NEED to be pure for a healthy game, it's ANET's game and I DOUBT they will even care to understand this type of logic.

@BlackTruth.6813 said:It SHOULD have been that way from the beginning. But ANET honestly believes attacking while evading or attacking while anything else is going on is smart, it really isn't.

The game could've made it big tbh if it was like that FROM THE BEGINNING. And as much as dodges NEED to be pure for a healthy game, it's ANET's game and I DOUBT they will even care to understand this type of logic.

Well, we gotta keep an open mind. There are some bad decisions that ANet made in terms of design but we some time ago they said that they want specific classes being able to fulfill specific roles. They need time and resources to make these things work so I guess that 2019 might be a very good year for GW2.

I'm happy that we agree on dodges. This is also a small factor that influences game transparency during combat.

@sephiroth.4217 said:I think Arcane dodges could use some lovin.

I personally have no issues with dodge mechanics if you have to trait for it....... But the thought of having Arcane dodges tied to dodge without traiting is also enticing.

Don't you think that this kind of mechanic add to a visual clutter without having any real effects? What are the actual benefits of having something like Arcane dodges?

Just a reminder: this isn't a thread to make suggestions on what dodges' trait could use but rather a discussion whether effects on dodges are healthy and should be expanded or if ANet should rethink the design of them :)

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:I think Arcane dodges could use some lovin.

I personally have no issues with dodge mechanics if you have to trait for it....... But the thought of having Arcane dodges tied to dodge without traiting is also enticing.

Arcane dodges is good for certain DD builds..

I get what the thread is about, but I don't think you realise that these mechanics have been in the game since 2012 hence why I am talking about Arcane dodges and they are important to thier respective builds, not just to Mirage...EG: fire field > Earth attunement > dodge (traited gives blast finisher)

Judging by your OP I'm guessing you only had Mirage Cloak and Silent Scope as a front runner for your suggestion.

The sentiment is great and reduces power creep but reality is that both Mirage Cloak and Silent Scope have been heavily spoken about due to several factors but the main one being that is promotes unhealthy gameplay whereas Arcane dodges is something that improves a healthy gameplay.

This is just my opinion though.

I think dodge traits are fine, but do need some balancing. Compare necro's dodge trait (well of blood with 8s icd) to broken stuff like mirage's (stunbreak+condi cleansed). Not to mention there is a huge gap in how often can a given profession dodge (hello thieves, mesmers vs necros again).

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I think dodge traits are fine, but do need some balancing. Compare necro's dodge trait (well of blood with 8s icd) to broken stuff like mirage's (stunbreak+condi cleansed). Not to mention there is a huge gap in how often can a given profession dodge (hello thieves, mesmers vs necros again).

don't they also get that reflect mirror on a 1s icd when evading?

oh yeah, there's that too..

@sephiroth.4217 said:

Arcane dodges is good for certain DD builds..

I get what the thread is about, but I don't think you realise that these mechanics have been in the game since 2012 hence why I am talking about Arcane dodges and they are important to thier respective builds, not just to Mirage...EG: fire field > Earth attunement > dodge (traited gives blast finisher)

Judging by your OP I'm guessing you only had Mirage Cloak and Silent Scope as a front runner for your suggestion.

The sentiment is great and reduces power creep but reality is that both Mirage Cloak and Silent Scope have been heavily spoken about due to several factors but the main one being that is promotes unhealthy gameplay whereas Arcane dodges is something that improves a healthy gameplay.

This is just my opinion though.

I see what you're saying now :)I know that there are certain traits that vastly improve the usability of dodges on certain classes. We might need to keep those too. My point is to clear out the traits that give little to nothing, yet exist and create visual clutter or give effects that are unreadable during combat.

The subject of DD and Mirage (mostly Mirage) dodges is very hot and I understand this. However, I didn't start the discussion just to point these out. I thought that this might be a good thing to talk about and make combat (especially PvP) more transparent. When it comes to dodges my statement is: if a class doesn't need it/ or is not designed to make use of its additional effects then there should be any dodge upgrades.

Talking about healthy gameplay - true, if you can read what a certan class does after the dodge and you clearly see the effect - that is healthy gameplay. In my opinion, healthy gameplay isn't random 2s Burning, 247 HP, 822 dmg or buffs on dodge <- That I'd likely get rid of because it brings very little (if anything) to the gameplay.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I think dodge traits are fine, but do need some balancing. Compare necro's dodge trait (well of blood with 8s icd) to broken stuff like mirage's (stunbreak+condi cleansed). Not to mention there is a huge gap in how often can a given profession dodge (hello thieves, mesmers vs necros again).

That's why I wanted to talk about this. There are classes (rather Specs) which's mechanics are build around dodges and have to be the game changers for them. It's hard to compare a random trait of Core class to the mechanic of an entire Spec, right?

That's why I think this should be clearly stated, what do we expect from classes like DD and Mirage when they dodge. DD is easier to read due to its clear animations for all Condi/DMG/Dash so you know what to expect when you see it.In my opinion, traits which create Well of Blood on dodge with 8s ICD are unpredictable for both players and opponents.

We can't compare these dodges as they are something totally different. That's why I think this mechanic should be cleaned-up. These lesser effects bring very little to the gameplay and yet do something from time to time. Problem is, they are very unreliable.

What do you think about it?

Why must every thread turn into a mesmer complaint space?

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:I think dodge traits are fine, but do need some balancing. Compare necro's dodge trait (well of blood with 8s icd) to broken stuff like mirage's (stunbreak+condi cleansed). Not to mention there is a huge gap in how often can a given profession dodge (hello thieves, mesmers vs necros again).

You're referring to a traited mechanic called Elusive Mind, which the wise mesmer mains around during its introduction said was a bad idea. It has since been nerfed from orbit with 6 seconds of Exhaustion, AKA -100% Endurance Regeneration when breaking stun by dodging. So no Mirage who knows what's good for them uses it.

The reflect-on-dodge trait, Evasive Mirror, does need attention. But keep in mind it's a defensive trait taken in lieu of the Blind/Confusion synergy trait, Blinding Dissipation, so a lot of damage output is sacrificed. It's a trade-off made depending on the situation.

i like having effects on "dodge", but it's indeed not really a dodge anymoreit's more like an ability with an evade frame, this game doesn't have any dodges

if you want to keep dodges pure, might also keep weaponswap pure. so many effects tied to an instant action that can basically be used any time when off cooldown.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I think dodge traits are fine, but do need some balancing. Compare necro's dodge trait (well of blood with 8s icd) to broken stuff like mirage's (stunbreak+condi cleansed). Not to mention there is a huge gap in how often can a given profession dodge (hello thieves, mesmers vs necros again).

Necros have big ass damage while thiefs don't so I wouldn't compare how many times a thief can dodge vs how many times a necro can dodge though, they're two different classes with different uses.

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

You're referring to a traited mechanic called Elusive Mind, which the wise mesmer mains around during its introduction said was a bad idea. It has since been nerfed from orbit with 6 seconds of Exhaustion, AKA -100% Endurance Regeneration when breaking stun by dodging. So no Mirage who knows what's good for them uses it.

The reflect-on-dodge trait, Evasive Mirror, does need attention. But keep in mind it's a defensive trait taken in lieu of the Blind/Confusion synergy trait, Blinding Dissipation, so a lot of damage output is sacrificed. It's a trade-off made depending on the situation.

Well, I didn't intend to make it a Mirage-oriented thread. I want to focus solely on the dodge mechanic in game and how it affects the gameplay. Of course, we can't talk about dodge without referring to classes but I'd suggest that we keep it non-Mirage as much as possible.

I think that you are right talking about Elusive Mind. My point would be to really indicate what is our opponent doing, since everyone has the access to dodge, we should be able to see very clearly what they do, and that leads us to problem like: Necro leaving marks on ground with 8s ICD, spawning bombs or healing after dodge.Some Specs rely and are built on the dodge mechanic so it certainly shouldn't be taken away from them. Thief (out of stealth) is very easy to read due to the animations all 3 dodges have.

What I don't like is that traits providing these lesser effects are very unreliable. In GW we have to pay a lot of attention to animations and stuff like these just make it harder because they are a bit unpredictable. Don't you think?

I certainly get the OP's sentiment, but I do rather like how we can choose to utilise our endurance for something other than dodging. Using a dodge to remove a condition or to gain swiftness or do damage or heal allies - I like the potential trade off for choosing to do any of these. It's why I really enjoy Mirage, as I have the choice to use my endurance to power specific skills rather than just evading.

@"Koen.1327" said:i like having effects on "dodge", but it's indeed not really a dodge anymoreit's more like an ability with an evade frame, this game doesn't have any dodges

So, do you think that the trait providing additional effects for ddges should be reworked/removed or stay as they are?I think that in all the visual clutter we already have in game it's hard to see or even feel the effects of things working after dodge. I'm not talking about whole class mechanics like DD and Mirage have, but more about things like little heals, bombs, marks which you don't notice during combat. In PvE this isn't a problem and can be very helpful but PvP requires a lot of focus in terms of observating motions and in my opinion these effects bring nothing to the gameplay and just take the space.

@Simonoly.4352 said:I certainly get the OP's sentiment, but I do rather like how we can choose to utilise our endurance for something other than dodging. Using a dodge to remove a condition or to gain swiftness or do damage or heal allies - I like the potential trade off for choosing to do any of these. It's why I really enjoy Mirage, as I have the choice to use my endurance to power specific skills rather than just evading.

I get what you're saying. Mirage and DD are built on these mechanics, so being able to change how your skills work or react to dodges is crucial to their gameplay. I'm however more concerned on these little things of other classes that bring very little to the gameplay.In PvP during combat they can be frustrating as you can't really tell if Necro has a cooldown for his mark (8s ICD on dodge) or if it doesn't.

All I want is a transparency in PvP in terms of dodge mechanic to which all classes have an access. In my opinion it just should be equal, and it could be achieved in cleaning it up in competitive modes.

PvE can make a very nice use of it because it's a lot easier to notice ithe effects after dodge.

@MUDse.7623 said:if you want to keep dodges pure, might also keep weaponswap pure. so many effects tied to an instant action that can basically be used any time when off cooldown.

I'm curious about people's opinions on this subject. Do people think that dodges should be just dodges and nothing else or if they are fine with what we currently have. I like that you bring On Weapon Swap effects - They are very unpredictable and totally unseenable. These are random as you can't really guess what sigils does your opponent use and when will he/she weaponswap. That is also a nice subject to talk about.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I think dodge traits are fine, but do need some balancing. Compare necro's dodge trait (well of blood with 8s icd) to broken stuff like mirage's (stunbreak+condi cleansed). Not to mention there is a huge gap in how often can a given profession dodge (hello thieves, mesmers vs necros again).

The reason why necro can't dodge as much because they have the highest health pool in the game vs thief who has the lowest. Not going to mention mirage, since its busted.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

That's why I wanted to talk about this. There are classes (rather Specs) which's mechanics are build around dodges and have to be the game changers for them. It's hard to compare a random trait of Core class to the mechanic of an entire Spec, right?

That's why I think this should be clearly stated, what do we expect from classes like DD and Mirage when they dodge. DD is easier to read due to its clear animations for all Condi/DMG/Dash so you know what to expect when you see it.In my opinion, traits which create Well of Blood on dodge with 8s ICD are unpredictable for both players and opponents.

We can't compare these dodges as they are something totally different. That's why I think this mechanic should be cleaned-up. These lesser effects bring very little to the gameplay and yet do something from time to time. Problem is, they are very unreliable.

What do you think about it?

Well in necro's case, core or elite specs, nothing changes about dodges. As for Well of Blood on dodge, gimmicky as hell but it has one great use - triggering passive signet of Vampirism from Blood Bond trait. Necromancer is the poster child for slow, extremely easy to interrupt/blind skillcasts, and it's not easy triggering that trait on demand without some insta-bleed surprise, one that's not connected to shroud might i add (will not heal when you're shrouded).

Though i agree this is poorly designed trait that's getting niche use due to another good one. Core necro needs a proper redesign. For example anti-blind skill that gives poor nec actual window where he can use his slow skill casts and have enemies work to avoid them, instead of just popping blind #54 and chill while hammering away on nec. An extra source of player-controlled stab also would be nice.

But due to this abomination that is the scourge (may it die in fire) that's not likely to happen, because what would fix core necro, would make that thing broken beyond belief. A-net needs to sit down, admit that mistakes were made and take the long, painful, but best route of buffing core, and nerfing elites so that at the very least necro has a servicable core spec like most other professions, while not having broken elites, just because core finally got fixed.

@"Snellibee.2761" said:

Necros have big kitten damage while thiefs don't so I wouldn't compare how many times a thief can dodge vs how many times a necro can dodge though, they're two different classes with different uses.

Lol, the very reason i invented my own spvp core necro tank build was to deal with thieves and their "small damage". It was impossible for me to play necro and not get killed by stray thief in moments otherwise. And i had to pack just about every measure of defense available to finally start giving thieves hard time.

@Aza.2105 said:The reason why necro can't dodge as much because they have the highest health pool in the game vs thief who has the lowest. Not going to mention mirage, since its busted.

I don't take issue with thief having lotsa dodges. I take it however with stealth on dodge. I already had my taste of deadeyes sniping my ass then dodging for stealth, then sniping my ass and stealth again with no real room for counterplay. Not to mention that disgusting shadow meld while we're there.

Next logical step is invuln on dodge.

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Judging by your OP I'm guessing you only had Mirage Cloak and Silent Scope as a front runner for your suggestion.Thought it was about https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Impact but it seems that a 4k umblocable dodge is fine considering the few amount of posts about it. (Btw we can't remove a main damage source with high prerequite from 1 class.)

Then in fact it would be a dodge :)