[spoiler] about the kralkatorrik torment...

Well... kralkatorrik has died, ok. (when the screen went white, he says mother..?)I have questions, where does the torment come from?Since kralkatorrik went berserk during gw1 and early gw2, are there something that has made it go crazy and wild?Maybe the new season could be something that related to the dark matter or the god and goddess conflicts???Just asking. :)

Lore people speculate this torment was created after the Forgotten tried to convert him as they did Glint, so basically this father-like Kralkatorrik is the aftermath of not so failed attempt to convert him.

Please add spoiler tags.

@Emily.6941 said:Well... kralkatorrik has died, ok. (when the screen went white, he says mother..?)I have questions, where does the torment come from?Since kralkatorrik went berserk during gw1 and early gw2, are there something that has made it go crazy and wild?Maybe the new season could be something that related to the dark matter or the god and goddess conflicts???Just asking. :)

Since Anet are seemingly making much of this up as they go along, it is difficult to say. It could be the attempt to convert him, but that is quite recent and his rage and malice has existed at least since his previous rise many millennia ago.

A correction - Kralk is not part of GW1 beyond being a buried mountain range.

From what I understood Kralk was not actually evil, he got corrupted by all the magic he absorved, first Zhaitan, then Mordremoth and at last Balthazar...its okay and all, but dont explain his behavior pre fall of Zhaitan.

@Felipe.1807 said:From what I understood Kralk was not actually evil, he got corrupted by all the magic he absorved, first Zhaitan, then Mordremoth and at last Balthazar...its okay and all, but dont explain his behavior pre fall of Zhaitan.

My theory is that the torment within him is why the magic he consumed couldn't be at peace inside him.

Who is Mother? I have heard its the sea dragon. I have also heard that when a elder dragon dies its magic goes to the rest of the elders, with the closest gaining the most magic. Could it be the sea dragon is manipulating events in order to collect all their magic?

@Zuldari.3940 said:Who is Mother? I have heard its the sea dragon. I have also heard that when a elder dragon dies its magic goes to the rest of the elders, with the closest gaining the most magic. Could it be the sea dragon is manipulating events in order to collect all their magic?

Steve bubbles is a master minpulator :p

The Elder dragons have some Grand plan that is somewhat monkey pawed Zhaitan has his eternal kingdom where nobody dies(although everyone is just a sock puppet), Mordremoth wanted to become the world, Jormag has the survival of the fittest thing and Primordus just wants the world to burn, Kralkatorik never did have some Grand plan he seems like he wanted that Crystal Magic and went cuckoo for another line, that also explains the paranoia. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and most probably the dragons went crazy long time ago, since they have the power they are always right and know better.

The devs did confirm, in the last Guild Chat, that the torment pre-dates Kralkatorrik consuming Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic... and, likewise, the Forgotten's attempts to convert him. Wherever it came from, the event was far before any of the history we've ever heard about.

I would say the 'Forgotten's ritual' theory is a bit flawed, because if you think about it, why would the Forgotten try to convert Kalk if he was good from the beginning? unless the Forgottens were evil.

If you recall what Joko said before he got chewed up by Aurene, that Kalk was a lizard that had magic shoved into him to turn it into an Elder Dragon, it may actually make sense.

Here's my farfetched theory try to combine mythologies and other fantasy materials.

Aeons ago there was an entity like the human gods capable of transfer magic, her name is Tyria who moulded the world Tyria and sentient beings on it.

As millennium passes by, her constant use of magic began to scar her body, and she felt her physical form is slowly deteriorating to the point that it's unable to contain the vast amount of magic contained within her, and there is nothing is capable of containing her power in a single place while healing her physical form.So she devised a plan to divide her magic into seven parts, of the six of them went into creatures of her creation, turning into Elder Dragons, tasked with holding the magic giving to them and keeping an eye on each other to maintain balance in power, this ensures no one Elder Dragon will absorb another to grow to the point so powerful to challenge her.While herself, held the seventh portion, the most powerful of the seven, retreated to the core of the world she had created to hibernate and repair her physical form.

However, there is an inherent flaw with the Elder Dragons, that unlike their creator, they will slowly leak the magic out of their body while hibernating, thus they have to wake up to absorb the magic lost before going back to hibernation. With the continuous cycle of reabsorbing magic, it began to twist the minds of the Elder Dragons, tormenting them from within; and now what they truly thirst for is for their creator to be awakened, and take back the magic she gave them, ending their torture.

but....isn't kralkatorrik went crazy way before we kill zhaitan...?

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:The devs did confirm, in the last Guild Chat, that the torment pre-dates Kralkatorrik consuming Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic... and, likewise, the Forgotten's attempts to convert him. Wherever it came from, the event was far before any of the history we've ever heard about.

Did they? I got the impression they said the torment was caused by those, but that there was something else making matters worse for him along with that.

If it did and I'm misinterpreting what they said, I'd find it interesting if something else had orchestrated it somehow. I kind of like the idea of an older god being at work here. Something older than the elder dragons or at least of the same age but more sinister and planned. Arachnia had a lair in Guild Wars 1, and didn't Abaddon essentially consume her power? Was that before he started venturing down the path of corruption? What if the two are connected somehow?

Might be a stretch, but there's also that mysterious being in the Deepstone Fractal that we know nothing about. Speaks in a weird tongue and apparently likes spiders a lot. Maybe now that we've finished Kralk we could start diving into some new lore, or at least lore that has been hinted at in very minor forms like that deepstone being.. and its relation to the Eye of The North campaign.

Wasn't there something about "facets" in relation to the Eye of The North campaign using the same language that the Deepstone Fractal boss uses? Though if I remember correctly that was about the gods and not the elder dragons as they weren't really known at this time.

And do we know what drew the Gods to the Artesian waters so long ago? Was it explained that it was solely Zhaitan's magic residing within them or underneath them or did the magic that drew them to those waters predate Zhaitan?

@"Emily.6941" said:but....isn't kralkatorrik went crazy way before we kill zhaitan...?

yeap, Kalk went crazy long before Zhaitan was killed, long before the Forgottens purified Glint

btw... who's Glint's mom? I guess only Anakin can understand the pain of losing wifey and go evil crazy

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:The devs did confirm, in the last Guild Chat, that the torment pre-dates Kralkatorrik consuming Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic... and, likewise, the Forgotten's attempts to convert him. Wherever it came from, the event was far before any of the history we've ever heard about.

I was tempted to assume that Snaff attack over the Kralk's mind is the source of torment. Not something real but something induced. A "residual Snaff mind" inhabiting the Kralk mind and causing him pain.

But after reading what Aaron Ansari posted ... it seems that the torment is another detail brought to us by the lore team only to make the story more interesting at one point. And never explained after.

@crepuscular.9047 said:

 

Here's my farfetched theory try to combine mythologies and other fantasy materials.

Aeons ago there was an entity like the human gods capable of transfer magic, her name is Tyria who moulded the world Tyria and sentient beings on it.

As millennium passes by, her constant use of magic began to scar her body, and she felt her physical form is slowly deteriorating to the point that it's unable to contain the vast amount of magic contained within her, and there is nothing is capable of containing her power in a single place while healing her physical form.So she devised a plan to divide her magic into seven parts, of the six of them went into creatures of her creation, turning into Elder Dragons, tasked with holding the magic giving to them and keeping an eye on each other to maintain balance in power, this ensures no one Elder Dragon will absorb another to grow to the point so powerful to challenge her.While herself, held the seventh portion, the most powerful of the seven, retreated to the core of the world she had created to hibernate and repair her physical form.

However, there is an inherent flaw with the Elder Dragons, that unlike their creator, they will slowly leak the magic out of their body while hibernating, thus they have to wake up to absorb the magic lost before going back to hibernation. With the continuous cycle of reabsorbing magic, it began to twist the minds of the Elder Dragons, tormenting them from within; and now what they truly thirst for is for their creator to be awakened, and take back the magic she gave them, ending their torture.

LOL! I think a lot of the forum posters can write at a high enough level to rival the Anet lore team. With a little bit of brushing, this can be the starting point of a new game.

@"Emily.6941" said:Well... kralkatorrik has died, ok. (when the screen went white, he says mother..?)I have questions, where does the torment come from?Since kralkatorrik went berserk during gw1 and early gw2, are there something that has made it go crazy and wild?Maybe the new season could be something that related to the dark matter or the god and goddess conflicts???Just asking. :)

I recommend watching the latest Guild Chat, as they go into it a bit.

Tl;dr, the torment is caused by conflicting magic (and not just from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar) which has driven Kralkatorrik insane - and they stress that it doesn't mean Kralkatorrik was good before then either. They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

@Felipe.1807 said:From what I understood Kralk was not actually evil, he got corrupted by all the magic he absorved, first Zhaitan, then Mordremoth and at last Balthazar...its okay and all, but dont explain his behavior pre fall of Zhaitan.

He might not have been evil, but the devs stressed that he was not good before the torment afflicted him. They also said that eating Zhaitan's, etc. magic didn't start the issue, it just exacerbated it.

@"Zuldari.3940" said:Who is Mother? I have heard its the sea dragon. I have also heard that when a elder dragon dies its magic goes to the rest of the elders, with the closest gaining the most magic. Could it be the sea dragon is manipulating events in order to collect all their magic?

During said guild chat, the devs literally said they don't know the origins of the Elder Dragons - they don't have it written out. They added that line with no solid plans for it in the future but do plan to go into it at some point.

Like, apparently, all of their writing. Write something "cool", think about repercussions and whatnot later. They did that with Aurene eating Joko, and Aurene dying, according to that GuildChat, only deciding to have Aurene eating Joko be how she resurrects after settling on both points.

"Mother" being the DSD is just the new bandwagon theory. Like Anise being Livia.

@crepuscular.9047 said:I would say the 'Forgotten's ritual' theory is a bit flawed, because if you think about it, why would the Forgotten try to convert Kalk if he was good from the beginning? unless the Forgottens were evil.

The Forgotten were trying to make Kralkatorrik good. This was after Glint's death, when Kralkatorrik was already evil. Not sure where you get that perspective from.

@crepuscular.9047 said:If you recall what Joko said before he got chewed up by Aurene, that Kalk was a lizard that had magic shoved into him to turn it into an Elder Dragon, it may actually make sense.

Joko lied. Big surprise. He's just some Elonian diplomat's son from the late 700s.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

Just speculation, but could this somehow be related to Abaddon? Kralk's mention of torment and anguish stood out to me, and on top of that the form that Kralkatorricks's Torment took on had a clear resemblance to Abaddon. Maybe it's not so much that Abaddon caused Kralk to go insane, but perhaps there's something else out there that caused both Kralk and Abaddon to go mad?

@Swizzle.7982 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

Well Kralk's madness predates the Gods and I'm nt sure I see any connection between Kralks evil and Abaddon's

Regardless, I'm unconvinced even the writers themselves know

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:The devs did confirm, in the last Guild Chat, that the torment pre-dates Kralkatorrik consuming Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic... and, likewise, the Forgotten's attempts to convert him. Wherever it came from, the event was far before any of the history we've ever heard about.

The specific quote I'm thinking of came from Freeman, fairly early on: "... originally, we wanted to show, we only wanted to use [the aspects of Balth/Zhaitan/Mord] just as pure mechanics of fighting; that here are these things that are just inside of him, and you just need to deal with... use it against him, or.... [Abernathy momentarily derailed things with a song reference here] As, as more of the, as more of the narrative started to come together with Kralk fighting with himself, then suddenly it became '[gasp] What if these are also pieces that are fighting amongst themselves within him?'"

My takeaway from that was that the torment and the aspects were two different things that got loosely tied together later on. Combine that with. if I'm not misremembering, Abernathy saying that the torment was firmly in control when Kralk killed Glint, five years before Zhaitan's death... that seems to paint a clear picture.

Wasn't there something about "facets" in relation to the Eye of The North campaign using the same language that the Deepstone Fractal boss uses? Though if I remember correctly that was about the gods and not the elder dragons as they weren't really known at this time.

Not the Facets themselves. They didn't speak, but the asura found coordinates embedded in them pointing at a spot in the Far Shiverpeaks, which turned out to be a place where all six facets converged. After defeating them an apparently human "Ephemeral Spirit" manifested and used the language/cipher before vanishing.

Could be a cool fractal, Finding out what caused Kralk's madness and who was behind it? Would be cool lore to see.

@Swizzle.7982 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

The implication is that it predates even the previous dragonrise. This means it predates the Six Gods' arrival on Tyria by at least ~20,000 years. So no, no relation to Abaddon.

And honestly, Abaddon does not hold a monopoly on the concept of pain, anguish, and torment. Dhuum has reigns on that far before Abaddon.

that "mother" thing is over-hyped, being optimistic will be a predecessor Crystal Dragon, replaced by Kralkatorrik after he killed her, something in that line, that would give the sense to the desire that Aurene one day does not have to kill who she loves. The problem is not lack of elements for an interesting plot, but Anet's willingness to make it happen.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Could be a cool fractal, Finding out what caused Kralk's madness and who was behind it? Would be cool lore to see.

It is more likely a slow burn thing over time so his descent into madness wouldn't be viewable as a one time thing for a fractal

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:that "mother" thing is over-hyped, being optimistic will be a predecessor Crystal Dragon, replaced by Kralkatorrik after he killed her, something in that line, that would give the sense to the desire that Aurene one day does not have to kill who she loves.

That was my first thought, too, but in the Guild Chat the devs say that the 'kill what you love' bit was referring to Glint, not whoever this mother is.

@crepuscular.9047 said:I would say the 'Forgotten's ritual' theory is a bit flawed, because if you think about it, why would the Forgotten try to convert Kalk if he was good from the beginning? unless the Forgottens were evil.

If you recall what Joko said before he got chewed up by Aurene, that Kalk was a lizard that had magic shoved into him to turn it into an Elder Dragon, it may actually make sense.

 

Here's my farfetched theory try to combine mythologies and other fantasy materials.

Aeons ago there was an entity like the human gods capable of transfer magic, her name is Tyria who moulded the world Tyria and sentient beings on it.

As millennium passes by, her constant use of magic began to scar her body, and she felt her physical form is slowly deteriorating to the point that it's unable to contain the vast amount of magic contained within her, and there is nothing is capable of containing her power in a single place while healing her physical form.So she devised a plan to divide her magic into seven parts, of the six of them went into creatures of her creation, turning into Elder Dragons, tasked with holding the magic giving to them and keeping an eye on each other to maintain balance in power, this ensures no one Elder Dragon will absorb another to grow to the point so powerful to challenge her.While herself, held the seventh portion, the most powerful of the seven, retreated to the core of the world she had created to hibernate and repair her physical form.

However, there is an inherent flaw with the Elder Dragons, that unlike their creator, they will slowly leak the magic out of their body while hibernating, thus they have to wake up to absorb the magic lost before going back to hibernation. With the continuous cycle of reabsorbing magic, it began to twist the minds of the Elder Dragons, tormenting them from within; and now what they truly thirst for is for their creator to be awakened, and take back the magic she gave them, ending their torture.

Perhaps this Tyria is a God like the 6! Maybe the whole reason Dhuum had to be contained was because the Underworld needed 6 spheres filled(by Dhuum/Death, the Judge/Souls, Mad King Thorn/Madness, Palawa Joko/Lich, Desmina/Blood and 1 more who commands the Ice Sphere) in order to keep Grenth sane unlike Dhuum and Balthazar(who has no concern on how much Magic he consumes to the point where he wanted to consume the Elder Dragons)!

If Mad King Thorn leaves the Underworld taking the Mad Realm with him the Realm of Grenth will start feeling side effects due to two spheres of The All being removed logically(which would probably be why Grenth did his best to keep Mad King Thorn sealed according to the Lunatic Court).