Anet, Please read this message from a long time D/D condition thief player

After reviewing the changes, I can say I do like most of them, but the deadly arts changes.

I know you guy's have been wanting Poison condition thief to happen for some time now and you guys have done amazing work with some of the changes for the past few years to the deadly arts trait line. But hear me out when I say the removal of condi application from daggers is a huge mistake for the few of us who like to run DA D/D condition. The poison application on our daggers is what makes our build. I understand you're shifting the poison application to a new trait, but the gain is nearly not enough of what was lost for daggers. Especially in PVP and an internal CD of 5 seconds......

I'm going to talk in the aspect of sPVP and dip into PVE a little. The "old" trait was apply a stack of poison with a 33% on your dagger skills. If you added this with the grandmaster trait, your poison turned into two stacks. This was a very great addition and made D/D poison thief feel very nice or even D/P. It was nice knowing that I can autoattack (besides final attack on the chain), deathblossom, and bouncing dagger and can consistently apply poison to my enemies so they lose their regeneration capabilities, and of course ramping up damage. This was also a very amazing clutch when it came to preventing enemies rezzing their allies when applying cleave damage. The new trait that applies 2 (or 3 with grandmaster) every 5 seconds doesn't even compare. Now into the PVE aspect, I'll tell you this right now that you just nerfed condition daredevil by a grand amount. The poison application will not be nearly as much with the old dagger training. Auto attacking and death blossom contributes more stacks than this new trait will.

I understand what you guys were aiming for, you wanted to allow more builds rather than just daggers when it comes to poison application. But please, you are really only destroying one of the only good poison builds (besides the toxic condi sword/dagger). What you really are doing is just shifting the power of D/D condi to other potential builds, which is completely acceptable, but not enough power is being shifted to account what a huge loss this will be. I would please rework the new trait to just have your mainhand weapon type to have a 33 % chance to apply poison if you really want more build diversity.

Sincerly, a D/D condi thief main

Honestly, this change is horrible for D/D condi both in PvE and PvP/WvW. 100% agree with you! It's crazy, the new trait will only bring about 40% of the poison stacks that Dagger Training brought when factoring in Potent Poison. If they want more condi build diversity then they should add a better trait akin to what you suggested in your last paragraph.

I understand you're shifting the poison application to a new traitline

no? it's still an adept in DA.

@"derd.6413" said:

I understand you're shifting the poison application to a new traitline

Sorry just changed "traitline" to "trait"

Technically some of that is being shifted to SA using leeching venoms. You’d gain some of the poison in DA and some in SA. But, you don’t have to be using a dagger to do it so build diversity goes up.

I’m not sure how condi d/d will do in the end but we still need details on a lot of things (internal cooldowns and numbers on certain new traits).

It does look like the intent was to open up weapon options.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:It does look like the intent was to open up weapon options.

Yeah I agree... so not sure what the problem is? Yeah dagger training is nerf but that trait only add powers??? Also, they added a new trait instead that is only for condi and it that replaces traps . AND SA has two new traits that gear towards condi

So the reason for SA rework? Because Dagger main will start taking SA especially condi builds. I would say that most Swords are brawler which is why they pick arco. Stay in the fights as long as possible. For daggers, we need to apply the damage and get out! So condi will be good which is why its good they are reworking SA so that we can leave the fight easier and adding sustain. HOPEFULLY, this will bring back dagger main hand... and off hand TT_TT.

Plus SA traits that will allow you to sustain plus chances for more condi?New SA trait -

• Merciful Ambush: This trait has been moved to the adept tier. It no longer increases revive speed and instead causes applying stealth to an ally to heal and revive them over 3 seconds. This will replace your mug

• Leeching Venoms: This trait has been moved to new slot in the same tier. It no longer reduces recharge of venoms. Instead it causes the thief to stack spider venom automatically while in stealth.

EDIT: I main D/D power - DA-TR-SA

@"Xenji.4907" said:

Yeah I agree... so not sure what the problem is? Yeah dagger training is nerf but that trait only add powers??? Also, they added a new trait instead that is only for condi and it that replaces traps . AND SA has two new traits that gear towards condi

The prolem is that with the new no sense "Deadly Ambition" you can't stack poison cause of the 3-5 seconds cooldown and this is a huge nerf.

Leeching Venoms: This trait has been moved to new slot in the same tier. It no longer reduces recharge of venoms. Instead it causes the thief to stack spider venom automatically while in stealth.

This could be OP or Useless, we don't know how much time you need to stack spider venom while in stealth: If you stay in stealth you can't use your spider venom; if you need to much time to stack spider venom, the enemy will heal with no problems..Blind, Blocks, Evade, Obstructed, Invulnerability consume Spider Venom, so not all the Spider Venom you stacked will make damage.

@SehferViega.8725 said:

@"Xenji.4907" said:

Yeah I agree... so not sure what the problem is? Yeah dagger training is nerf but that trait only add powers??? Also, they added a new trait instead that is only for condi and it that replaces traps . AND SA has two new traits that gear towards condi

Leeching Venoms: This trait has been moved to new slot in the same tier. It no longer reduces recharge of venoms. Instead it causes the thief to stack spider venom automatically while in stealth.

Agreed. On paper it looks good right now but we got to wait for the release on Tuesday.

Thorns rune & scavenging Runes all I'm gonna say and oh I don't know maybe AnetT is trying to get you guys to run new trait lines or play with the builds to see if you can make something new happen. I honestly think it was a good change for Condi it requires you to time your burst a bit more and play more carefully and it opens the weapon options quite a bit.

In a way, it feels like we're getting much closer to the whole idea of applying (even bursting) condi, hiding while it ticks (while we're hidden we Regen/Ini, get various bonuses)... which is much closer to the idea I had of the thief when I joined years ago.

With DrD D/D, it's more about endless bouncing around (DrD, Trickery, DA), so maybe that playstyle gets nerfed (and I must admit I loved this cheesy build for openworld PvE) but it opens up to many others possible builds, and ones much more in line with hit-hide-hit-hide of thief. I must say tho that DrD condi playstyle was actually much different, and added a while different type of interaction, than the hit-kite-hit traditional approach.

D/P, DrD, SA, Trickery (or switch Trickery for DA)P/D, DrD or DE, SA, and DA or Trickery

All I see this as is to focus D/D purely into power.

They are gonna make Sword the Queen of Thief weapons now, because with the new poison trait, yu can effectively play the S/D thief as a Condi, poking in and out and applying the Poison every 5 seconds.

Sword/Dagger with the next patch : Power poking build, Condi poking build, and with some Stealth thrown in, they can have even better Condi poke by Stealthing for Venom and then popping out to apply them.

...this change is a substantial buff for D/D condi Daredevil in PvP and a meaningful DPS buff in PvE.

The old trait wasn't consistent at all, though.

The fact an entire build's major share of damage was basically existing around RNG with AA usage is pretty horrible.

Burst condi is generally what D/D should be about as per how its power variant plays, and while this trait doesn't fix the issues with condi D/D per se, it does enable them to do more to address both builds. I'd expect the 5s ICD to be reduced, or simply, the poison duration/stacks buffed compared to what DT currently offers. If it does either of those things, D/D just ends up strictly better-off and more reliable. With the new SA traits, I think its poison output will be similar if not higher, and its play pattern will mirror that of power D/D a lot more, which is also generally a good thing.

DT post-change is definitely a garbage-tier trait now for D/D as a +power modifier considering static power is pretty much useless for D/D. 5% damage was substantially better than what it's gonna end up being.

Either way, I think with the new utilities and SA line will make the kit better-off than now.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The old trait wasn't consistent at all, though.

The fact an entire build's major share of damage was basically existing around RNG with AA usage is pretty horrible.

Burst condi is generally what D/D should be about as per how its power variant plays, and while this trait doesn't fix the issues with condi D/D per se, it does enable them to do more to address both builds. I'd expect the 5s ICD to be reduced, or simply, the poison duration/stacks buffed compared to what DT currently offers. If it does either of those things, D/D just ends up strictly better-off and more reliable. With the new SA traits, I think its poison output will be similar if not higher, and its play pattern will mirror that of power D/D a lot more, which is also generally a good thing.

DT post-change is definitely a garbage-tier trait now for D/D as a +power modifier considering static power is pretty much useless for D/D. 5% damage was substantially better than what it's gonna end up being.

Either way, I think with the new utilities and SA line will make the kit better-off than now.

I just can not see d/d condition builds taking the SA line. There just not enough reasons to go stealth and the only means outside a utility to do this is CnD which can also be hit and miss and does takes away INI from your condi adds (in particular DB) . Yeah you gain spider venom in stealth but what traitline would d/d condition drop to take SA?

It seems to me dropping TR or DrD or Acro anf you lose as much if not more then what SA gains.

@Yasai.3549 said:All I see this as is to focus D/D purely into power.

They are gonna make Sword the Queen of Thief weapons now, because with the new poison trait, yu can effectively play the S/D thief as a Condi, poking in and out and applying the Poison every 5 seconds.

Sword/Dagger with the next patch : Power poking build, Condi poking build, and with some Stealth thrown in, they can have even better Condi poke by Stealthing for Venom and then popping out to apply them.

S/p condition might be possible too. Take Pressure strike from the TR line perhaps. Hybrids of the same might fare even better.

@babazhook.6805 said:

S/p condition might be possible too. Take Pressure strike from the TR line perhaps. Hybrids of the same might fare even better.

Also, Condi Deadeye back on the menu.

Rifle 2 has alot of Immobilize for Poison, and equipping the new traits will give flat Condi Damage and lots of free Stealth from dodging.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

S/p condition might be possible too. Take Pressure strike from the TR line perhaps. Hybrids of the same might fare even better.

Rifle hybrid might be a thing. Those preparations might be ideal in such a setup using that portal, shadowstep and the rifles inate port to move around the battlefield stealth and frustrate the heck out of the enemy. Rifle DJ hits hard even with lower power and ferocity. Put on grieving maybe?

@Ensign.2189 said:...this change is a substantial buff for D/D condi Daredevil in PvP and a meaningful DPS buff in PvE.

It’s absolutely a DPS loss in PvE for D/D Condi Daredevil. You can hit about 12+ times in 3 seconds with daggers with quickness currently which equals roughly 4 stacks of poison. With Potent Poison that becomes 8 stacks. The new trait only applies 2 every 3 seconds and + 1 from potent poison = 3. So you lose 62.5% of the poison that was possible with Dagger Training before the new trait. That’s a MASSIVE NERF; certainly not a meaningful dps buff in PvE. The +120 condi is nice, but certainly not worth 5 stacks or more of poison every 3 seconds in total added damage

The change is also a nerf to Dagger Dagger in pvp for similar reasons, though the numbers are different. It breaks closer to even only when considering that you’re not necessarily constantly hitting the opponent. It’s obviously a buff though for non-D/D condi thief builds.

ALSO worth noting that the new trait Deadly Ambition’s CD may or may not apply to more than one foe, whereas Dagger Training had a chance to apply on ALL cleaved foes on every hit. If the new trait only applies to one foe at a time it’s even more of a nerf in all modes since adds on bosses can eat the poisons or Mesmer clones, ranger pets, etc.

Also to everyone saying Leeching Venoms is going to somehow save condi thief, please realize you have to drop a traitline to make room for Shadow Arts and I doubt anyone wants to drop Deadly Arts, Trickery, Acrobatics, Critical Strikes, Daredevil, or Deadeye for a few extra stacks of poison while remaining in stealth. I mean I can see some extremely niche builds with it, but you lose a lot to make room for it, so I don’t think Those builds will be particularly good

@DeceiverX.8361 said:With the new SA traits, I think its poison output will be similar if not higher, and its play pattern will mirror that of power D/D a lot more, which is also generally a good thing.Either way, I think with the new utilities and SA line will make the kit better-off than now.

What traitline would you suggest dropping for a Dagger Dagger build after these changes? Deadly Arts, Trickery, or Daredevil? All of them add significant things to the condi build and I don’t think the new Shadow Arts necessarily outclasses them in any way for condi, especially since you have to make good use of stealth to get the spider venom stacks which D/D doesn’t have amazing access to without devoting traits and utilities to it...CnD is meh at best

@babazhook.6805 said:

Rifle hybrid might be a thing. Those preparations might be ideal in such a setup using that portal, shadowstep and the rifles inate port to move around the battlefield stealth and frustrate the heck out of the enemy. Rifle DJ hits hard even with lower power and ferocity. Put on grieving maybe?

Even with new Deadly Arts traits Condi DE will be a new experience.Might be more consistent with Vipers, and will end up with DA - SA - DE

I'm still skeptical about Shadow Arts granting Venom on stealth.It might be absurdly good and give yu 1 stack every second in Stealth, or it might be utter trash and have a skill ICD but give yu 6 stacks.

When it comes out, I shall see if it is the former or the latter.

If it is former, hooray, definately gonna try my hand at Condi DE.If it is latter, might just try Grieving with SA-Trick-DE

@Yasai.3549 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

Rifle hybrid might be a thing. Those preparations might be ideal in such a setup using that portal, shadowstep and the rifles inate port to move around the battlefield stealth and frustrate the heck out of the enemy. Rifle DJ hits hard even with lower power and ferocity. Put on grieving maybe?

That idea sounds good!

I tried a DrD hybrid with DA-Trickery, using lotus training (to stack different types of condi for DA bonus DMG on number of condi). It was mediocre. I like your better.

But I can better see now an hybrid DrD build with SA-Trickery using either D/D or D/P and using Viper... And focusing on applying condi, while spinning in smoke fields for throwing blind around (with siphoned on every blind?).Traditionally siphon does not crit, so precision/ferocity would not be as important. You could invest fully in condi and power with other side stats such as expertise, vitality or even healing, lol... You'd loose a bit of condi for not using DA, but you'd gain siphon on blind...

...or it might actually be a thing now to use Death Blossom in a pure power build if you consider the whirl will send blind/siphon around boosting DMG that ignores armor.

On paper sounds funny, but might not be practical at all, really depends on the numbers... I can't wait to toy with that.

Lucian explained my worries extremely well, we no longer have an form of poison cleave besides shortbow 4 spam and and maybe lotus dodge in it? If this new trait is first target ICD only, and not per target, this will be terrible in a lot of scenarios. Also SA sounds fun and intriguing , but the problem is that you will need to sacrifice an elite specialization, trickery (which is overloaded and needs some aspects of it baseline), or DA which is the primary poison damage application. Also stealth based game play is not very useful in Open world PVE and PVP as the fight tends to drag out way too long and you provide no point pressure. The only time i feel Stealth based game play shines is in WvW when it comes to fighting random people.

My final thought on this is just rework the new trait to rather limiting us with ICD's, let us have a way to apply more poison frequently so we can make use of the grand-master trait and not limited to 1 target so we dont get gimped when it comes to attacking more than 1 target or by ranger pets etc.

Those that don't think the Dagger Training nerf is substantial with D/D haven't really played the set. Remember daggers hit multiple targets and the old Dagger Training had no ICD so Death Blossom, Dancing Dagger and the AA, etc often smacked multiple targets and each proc triggered Potent Poison. That is gone now. Single target might be better but multi target DPS will take a significant hit after this change. Course looking at it single target looks to be less as well since dagger attacks are absurdly fast particularly on opening with a Burst of Agility.

SA is mostly shite on condi builds and it will likely remain that way. Dare Devil, Trickery and DA are far stronger. Also Lotus Training is the cats meow for covering condi and jacking up its damage with that 10% boost. Steal applying poison, confusion, weakness and immediately dodge to drop a bleed, torment, cripple as cover. Lethal to a great number of builds.

@Straegen.2938 said:Those that don't think the Dagger Training nerf is substantial with D/D haven't really played the set. Remember daggers hit multiple targets and the old Dagger Training had no ICD so Death Blossom, Dancing Dagger and the AA, etc often smacked multiple targets and each proc triggered Potent Poison. That is gone now. Single target might be better but multi target DPS will take a significant hit after this change. Course looking at it single target looks to be less as well since dagger attacks are absurdly fast particularly on opening with a Burst of Agility.

SA is mostly kitten on condi builds and it will likely remain that way. Dare Devil, Trickery and DA are far stronger. Also Lotus Training is the cats meow for covering condi and jacking up its damage with that 10% boost. Steal applying poison, confusion, weakness and immediately dodge to drop a bleed, torment, cripple as cover. Lethal to a great number of builds.

Thanks for understanding the thought process and wholeheartedly agree