New Aquatic Fractal — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New Aquatic Fractal

Molten Furnace, Aquatic; two fractals sharing a similarity in how mind numbingly boring they were. I've had days where I struggled to stay awake in Molten Furnace, so when I saw those changes I liked them. In fact, any change made to increase the difficulty of a fractal these days is something I'm positively receptive towards - I still disagree with having made Twilight Oasis easier with albeit limited phase checkpoints. What was done to Aquatic however wasn't in my opinion an improvement. Mechanically, it seems like a monstrosity from the Siren's Reef department of 'throw-everything-at-you-and-see-who-breaks' design. For the record, I like Siren's Reef and I look quite heavily down upon people who use the exploit, if it still even works. Aquatic wasn't boring because it had a boss that wasn't fun nor a pretext to said fight which barely required consciousness. That's the way of every single fractal when you've done it enough times after all, and I'm still entertained doing any others as dailies. It's boring because it's guilty of being underwater content, an aspect of the game I'm certain a majority of people at minimum don't care about/actively dislike. Personally, when I see water past wading-depth in GW2 I avoid it like a fresh outbreak of Bubonic Plague in 1348. I somehow doubt that sentiment is less than uncommon in varying degrees of severity.

It doesn't matter what you do to mechanically alter the Jellyfish, or what additions you put in front of it. They don't improve the fractal as a piece of content, all it does is elongate something which you already didn't want to spend time on and frustrate through the new boss phases. Every issue Aquatic had was merely a symptom of it being underwater content, not a flaw in any individual component of the fractal itself. Replacing the Jellyfish with a three-phased fight which stacks radial condi damage on you you can do nothing to avoid (there is a difference between 'avoid' and 'mitigate') doesn't resolve the core problem of underwater content, making the boss ruthlessly punish melee to the point of uselessness isn't an improvement and removing all CC bars from sight doesn't fix anything. This just feels like change for the sake of change and I hope it isn't a wide brush that's going to start tarring all the other fractals. Aquatic doesn't suddenly require more skill and it hasn't been made harder as a fractal - it's still the same boring, slot-stealing fractal it always was, just longer than ever.

I know the change won't be magically reversed and my opinion will doubtlessly never be taken into account by anyone of relevance, but the sheer lack of necessity in this change was a frustration I had to be annoyed somewhere about. It didn't even have remotely bad instabilities today, when it finally rolls any mixture of frailty/we bleed fire/boon overload/sugar rush it's going to become downright painful on top of needlessly drawn out.

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Comments

  • Been trying to get the new jellyfish with 4 seperate teams... we can not get past the 2nd phase. The fish does not follow into the electricity. What is the mechanic now?

  • Found the solution multiple boon strip and sustain... cause dps sits around 10k dps... so the fight takes a while

  • @Angelweave.1856 said:
    Found the solution multiple boon strip and sustain... cause dps sits around 10k dps... so the fight takes a while

    You can brute force it without any real issue if you have a competent druid. Again, my issue has nothing to do with whether the fractal has been made more difficult or not, I personally don't think it has been whatsoever. It's just forcing you to suffer playing the worst aspect of the game for longer which annoys me.

  • I agree that underwater combat is not as fluid as land based... In terms of fun, the most fun I've had was doing a story challenge mote where the fight was bloody hard but
    quick (quick to win and twice as quick to die).

  • Memoranda.9386Memoranda.9386 Member ✭✭✭

    My fractal group had a tough time with it today for some reason. Right after the change, we breezed through it with no problem.

    I'm sure it doesn't help that no one seems to have a build set up for underwater combat; I had triple the DPS of the second highest person.

    Not necessarily bad changes, but the final boss is fairly punishing now, especially with the phase Condi Spam. Group couldn't cleanse fast enough.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    It feels like an actual Fractal now and once people adjust and come prepared with a somewhat decent underwater build to swap to, it's really not bad.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • KidRoleplay.3615KidRoleplay.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Saracen.2691

    I'm just concerned about the direction that fractal development is going with each change. Water or not, unavoidable and cheap damage is never fun.

    Even CM Arkk you could probably do without ever getting hit. It's hectic, sure, but at least it's fair. Then in a later release, Deepstone boss's barrier phase you cant avoid taking damage. It's not too punishing, but what if your health is already low? And shades sometimes do "mysterious damage" attacks that I to this day can't see coming. Then Siren's Reef final boss has the green and orange zones that just keep appearing right on you. There should be a way for you to not get them on you ever if you knew how. Now aquatic has a phase with a room-wide DOT from an elite mob you have to try to burst down with undergeared water weapons. ...Yep. I'm seeing a growing trend that feels most disagreeable.

    On a minor note, ever since that player pull/push mechanic has been introduced (tornados, wind beams, that one champion awakened), designers have been going nuts with them. Aquatic boss has it now too. Very annoying for melee, where you're doomed to a lot of damage usually unless you're on a class with teleports.

    At the very least, the boss could use the Archdiviner treatment and get his health bar gutted so the length of the fight doesn't have to be so drawn out.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    You should ANYWAY have druid for normal run - something not good. I was think that 5+ years. Time to change mind?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    At the very least, the boss could use the Archdiviner treatment and get his health bar gutted so the length of the fight doesn't have to be so drawn out.

    Again I think that's mostly a symptom of people coming unprepared in level 5 common underwater gear and no proper build, as well as the Fractal appearing with NPNG (as well as Vengeance) for the first time where some less organized/non meta groups might have been struggling with removing the protection from the boss.

    Additionally it also had Afflicted, which can be one of the most dangerous Instabilities when lacking add pull/cleave, which was probably the case underwater for most people, which may have been most of the counter pressure felt.

    Once people bust out their 60k burst 30k DPS underwater builds, instead of the no effort 10-15k generally seen until now, this Fractal will melt from phase to phase in seconds without any nerf.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019
    1. Underwater content is a nice break from land-based content. Simply stating "underwater sucks" is not an argument.
    2. Make sure your breather and underwater weapon are actually viable.

    Those two things aside, yes, the new underwater fractal sucks, just as the Molten rework sucks, and just as Deepstone/Siren suck. I'm actually amazed that they added player push/pull mechanics to underwater content. More and more evidence that ANet's game designers don't actually play their own game (and may not play any videogame at a serious level?).

    Hopefully the drop in fractal participation will make them actually put in effort + thought.

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    At the very least, the boss could use the Archdiviner treatment and get his health bar gutted so the length of the fight doesn't have to be so drawn out.

    Again I think that's mostly a symptom of people coming unprepared in level 5 common underwater gear and no proper build, as well as the Fractal appearing with NPNG (as well as Vengeance) for the first time where some less organized/non meta groups might have been struggling with removing the protection from the boss.

    Additionally it also had Afflicted, which can be one of the most dangerous Instabilities when lacking add pull/cleave, which was probably the case underwater for most people, which may have been most of the counter pressure felt.

    Once people bust out their 60k burst 30k DPS underwater builds, instead of the no effort 10-15k generally seen until now, this Fractal will melt from phase to phase in seconds without any nerf.

    So whats the point of pushing fractal to be harder actually, if u can melt everything with dps? Wouldn't that be easy mode again?
    Point is cheap artificial difficulty vs smart one like ark cm.
    this underwater right now feels very cheap.
    You shouldn't need CM comp to beat regular T4.

  • Today's difficulties with it had to do with getting Afflicted as an instability. He's supposed to just pulse some light damage during the invulnerable phases, but Anet forgot to make that not trigger afflicted. Thus we get tons of unavoidable condis.

  • Athef.6879Athef.6879 Member ✭✭

    Again, the argument is that the difficulty currently lies in damage received that is entirely out of the player's control and cheap unavoidable mechanics which are very simplistic, dull and boring, at times outright frustrating. Take that along with the fact that this is underwater combat we're talking about, which arguably most people don't find entertaining (at least from my experience), and you have just made your already dreadful experience even worse.
    Also, all of the regular T4 fractals are doable without any food, pots, or special builds - they simply need you to know what to do. Why should this one be an exception?

  • @Athef.6879 said:
    Also, all of the regular T4 fractals are doable without any food, pots, or special builds - they simply need you to know what to do. Why should this one be an exception?

    I don't think it's exceptional. I think it's exactly like we've seen with any new or updated fractal with new mechanics: people keep being surprised that their old tactics no longer are effective. To be fair, the old Aquatic didn't actually require tactics and today's instabilities introduced elements with which PUGs struggle even in terrestrial combat.

    Nevertheless: the same global techniques work:

    • Overwhelming DPS allows teams to ignore most mechanics because phases end before it matters.
    • Use of counters (e.g. boonstrips and condi removal) allow teams to function effectively despite the mechanics.
    • Excellent support matters (e.g. heals, prots, blinds).

    I notice that some players tend to stay at range (to avoid flurries from the little jellies), putting them out of range of heals and boons. Some keep trying to DPS rather than swap to utilities that help them (or team) survive. And people generally aren't as quick to respond to the new mechanics: slow to swap from big jelly to the elites, refusing to kill the veteran adds that now spawn, etc.


    None of this should be confused for me actually enjoying the new version of Aquatic. Longer fight, less interesting. It feels to me like the entire purpose was to extend the duration to make it comparable to other fractals, not to make it more fun. I'd be curious what the devs have to say, as I'm sure the changes were planned some months ago.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    It feels like an actual Fractal now and once people adjust and come prepared with a somewhat decent underwater build to swap to, it's really not bad.

    I keep hearing that every time there's a change to a fractal. And in the end what happens is always one of two things:
    if the difficulty remains the same, but the fractal just requires slightly different changes to the strategy, players do adjust, and eventually everything works exactly as before. No meaningful change happens.
    If the new version actually requires more effort/commitments, players do not adjust. Some of them just start skipping on that fractal from now on (and i don;t mean people dropping to a lower fractal tier - most of them actually just don't bother to do the fractal at all anymore). Average skill level of players doing it rises, but only because the least skilled ones are removed from the equation. Not because players got more skilled, because the improvement curve of each individual player remains unchanged - they keep improving at exactly the same rate they improved when the older version was present.

    So, the end result is just a reduced population of players doing the content. But hey, at least it "feels like an actual fractal now".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Asum.4960 said:
    It feels like an actual Fractal now and once people adjust and come prepared with a somewhat decent underwater build to swap to, it's really not bad.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I keep hearing that every time there's a change to a fractal. And in the end what happens is always one of two things:
    if ...players do adjust, ... eventually everything works exactly as before.
    If ...players do not adjust.. Some of them just start skipping on that fractal from now on

    As phrased, that's a truism. If there aren't meaningful changes, then there's no need for players to adapt. If there are substantive differences, then those who aren't willing to update their tactics (whether due to skill or impatience or burnout)... will skip. That's human nature, not something specific to GW2.

    The question is: to which group should ANet aim its changes? To those who want more challenges? Or to those that don't? For Fractals and Raids, I think it should be the latter. For open world PvE, it's probably fine to focus on the first group. (And it's more complicated for PvP and WvW.)


    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, the end result is just a reduced population of players doing the content. But hey, at least it "feels like an actual fractal now".

    It's a seven-year old game; participation is reduced in all game modes. The question is whether fractal participation is decreasing at a faster rate ... and I don't think we, as players, have any data with which to make an informed opinion. With raids, we can compare Living World to Raid achievements (begin LS episode vs first raid boss in the wing, end LS episode vs last raid boss)... and for that, there's little difference on GW2 efficiency: about 15% of accounts are completing raids vs LS, regardless of the timing. Most fractals (especially revamped ones) don't have achievements, so we don't even have a proxy for measuring participation, just anecdotes.


    Again: I'm not a fan of the changes to Aquatic. I don't think it's "too hard;" I just think it's even duller now than it was before.

    It reminds me of Waiting for Godot, where one character argues that being bored is good, because it feels like time passes more slowly, which means a longer (perceived) lifetime. As if 60 minutes of perceived boredom is a better life than 30 minutes of actual excitement.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    It feels like an actual Fractal now and once people adjust and come prepared with a somewhat decent underwater build to swap to, it's really not bad.

    I keep hearing that every time there's a change to a fractal. And in the end what happens is always one of two things:
    if the difficulty remains the same, but the fractal just requires slightly different changes to the strategy, players do adjust, and eventually everything works exactly as before. No meaningful change happens.
    If the new version actually requires more effort/commitments, players do not adjust. Some of them just start skipping on that fractal from now on (and i don;t mean people dropping to a lower fractal tier - most of them actually just don't bother to do the fractal at all anymore). Average skill level of players doing it rises, but only because the least skilled ones are removed from the equation. Not because players got more skilled, because the improvement curve of each individual player remains unchanged - they keep improving at exactly the same rate they improved when the older version was present.

    So, the end result is just a reduced population of players doing the content. But hey, at least it "feels like an actual fractal now".

    What alternative do you propose? Every fractal is swim/walk to a boss and then use random skills you didn't even bother to read what they do and comfortably beat the encounter on the highest difficulty available?

    Then we maybe have population, for a time, but just like story and open world no actual enjoyable and engaging content to play with.

    If people don't actually want to play the game and just get loot for menial tasks that just require time as opposed to effort, then what is the point of playing? And what do you do once you got the shinies you want if the content is just mind numbing easy and unenjoyable in of itself?
    At least the people who still play after those Fractals are made more interesting and engaging are there to play and improve.

    Aquatic was a boring farm fest you could solo while watching a show on the side or eating dinner, or both. If it didn't give rewards no one would ever think to play it. Now at least it's the only somewhat interesting piece of underwater content in the game worth having a UW build for.
    The issue is rather that there isn't more challenging content to motivate people to improve and make builds for, rather than there being any semi challenging endgame content at all, which really this isn't even.

    In this case specifically, the Instabilities were causing more trouble than anything else and I gladly take a bet that most groups who struggled with it today didn't bring boon rip and condi cleanses for NPNG, Vengeance and Afflicted. That wasn't even the fractal being too difficult, just people refusing to bring appropriate tools.
    The Fractal is just not completely brain dead anymore, which is a welcome change. Of course there is room for tweaking and improvement, but it's better than what it was before.

    If you are not invested enough into playing and beating the content to look for pretty obvious, easy and accessible ways to easily beat the content, you can't really complain imo.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    I actually like what they did with new aquatic fractal.
    I think it is a good change on a fractal that was otherwise boring and not engaging before

  • Omnicron.2467Omnicron.2467 Member ✭✭✭

    I just experienced the changes for the first time today and I really dislike it. It feel like I need to make a specific build and team comp to clear this fractal without frustration. It promotes a challenge for doing it as a pug group who do not have tailor made builds for the new mechanics. I feel like people will want to start with this frac now so they can kick people who do not perform

  • @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    On a minor note, ever since that player pull/push mechanic has been introduced (tornados, wind beams, that one champion awakened), designers have been going nuts with them. Aquatic boss has it now too. Very annoying for melee, where you're doomed to a lot of damage usually unless you're on a class with teleports.

    This specifically is one of the things that annoyed me in Aquatic too. I play Scourge. My optimal DPS requires that I stay close to whatever I'm killing, which the new jellyfish only punishes you for. Actually, it feels pointless to even try anything other than just stay outside of drag range and just spam shade abilities with the measly amount of life force you get back from the fight. It doesn't help that a lot of the added mobs seemingly have those second brief CC pulses to throw at you randomly either, crippling any value stability generation might have to the wasteful. As for the rest, i.e. how chaotic other fractals are, I don't really mind. I can avoid almost anything in land-based fractals with comfortable ease after a brief first-encounter with the mechanic - the same doesn't hold true underwater. Love them or hate them, orange circles immediately tell you what you're working with and give you something to react to. Nothing underwater signals to you clearly what the range of anything is, you either get hit or you don't and you can try to guess if moving away will avoid further damage, or if it doesn't matter and you'll always get hit anyway. No animations are tied to the condi pulses or the dozen other things thrown at you randomly during the phases, at least none discernible. As far as I'm concerned adding mechanical obfuscation introduces only confusion and aggravation, not a better state of play.

  • Pirindolo.9427Pirindolo.9427 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    20 minutes fighting the big jellyfish (no wipes). More than the whole Observatory. This is simply ridiculous.

  • @Aaron Forestman.4758 said:
    Today's difficulties with it had to do with getting Afflicted as an instability. He's supposed to just pulse some light damage during the invulnerable phases, but Anet forgot to make that not trigger afflicted. Thus we get tons of unavoidable condis.

    Begs the question, will it trigger Outflanked in the future, or Stick Together, or Sugar Rush?

  • Gambino.2109Gambino.2109 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    This Fractal needs to be fixed...

    This was our.. Oh nice a lucky break once in a while fractal to save time running T4s and CMs... Now it's not even worth doing until they fix some of the unfairness while keeping in mind we are under water using skills and stuff we're not used to.

    I don't particularly appreciate the torment attacks and condies during the kill the krait phases that drag the battle on even more.

    Also.. what's the deal with this thing killing you instantly from the battle if you can't get those mini games right multiple times.. I have gotten all right at least four times but I still died because my hp was all gone before I could continue...

    And if he eats you with low to mid health.. forget it

  • GWMO.4785GWMO.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    @Angelweave.1856 said:
    Found the solution multiple boon strip and sustain... cause dps sits around 10k dps... so the fight takes a while

    ^this. I went with a scourge with as main target boon corrupt/ removal and condi convert/cleanse. Had a healing FB in addition and rest was prime dps. A little slow, but no struggles. Pretty butter smooth.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019

    Some sarcasm ahead:

    Same as other old fractal reworks, 0 fun value, no challenge, just pure, high grade annoyance.

    Mai - just camp on boss, spam heals, spam cc and dps, 0 brain required

    Swampland - 284902489420 mobs to kill with irrelevant champs, super fun and engaging fractal with very challenging mechanics, just stack with group and no need to think

    Molten Boss - just skip to bridge, kill 2 mobs, then rush into corner, kill 28940820974092724 mobs (super fun and engaging - especially those protectors which can protect enemy npcs through walls far away... ugh...), then just kill champ (which is not that bad), kill another 28490824 mobs and then hardest part of whole fractal, kill 2 legendary bosses - oh also there are more adds but they are so irrelevant, I guess it's fun and challenging part for parties where everyone is using soldier gear

    ANet's scheme for old fractal rework: add 4948565971423 trash mobs (and now ones which you can't rally off, mobs that you have to kill since they can catch you up as fast as friendly npcs, mobs that have broken damages and abilities, spam weakness, chill, cripple and other conditions to make things more fun and challenging, right?).
    Add champs that block progress (which is kinda understandable, but like why putting it in every rework now... how original), add phases to final boss to prolong combat duration (would be ok if the combat itself wasn't boring/annoying as hell). In case of Aquatic and Molten Furnace also remove break bars so there is no damage bonus when breakbar is broken.

    Also, notice how instability rework did not solve anything, but added more annoyance instead. The old Social Awkwardness was probably the most annoying and hated instability. Now what? We have like 2-3 more annoying ones instead. Wohooo, super fun!

    Sarcasm turned off now:
    100 and 99 CMs were salvation of FotM. Those CMs are what the peak of endgame repeatable content should look like! It is still fun after all this time (after getting above 1k 100cm kp), it was challenging when doing it like first 20 times. The challenge of course drops when doing certain content so many times, so that is why fun aspect is crucial to keep this repeatable content enjoyable.
    The instabilities rework we got few months ago, was underwhelming, non-creative and resulted in annoyance and unfun of some daily clears. Take for example Frailty, Outflanked, Boon Overload or We Bleed Fire instabilities. Those instabilites do not make things challenging at all. They just force players to use healers in most groups who deal with the negative effects of instabilities. What about positive effects of those instabilities? The positive effects are pretty much useless and they don't contribute anything to fun gameplay. Mists Convergence instability spawns enemies which are really annoying in certain situations (rabbit stripping mistlock singularity, tentacle spamming aoe cc, Mossman throwing axe and making one stuck in combat for longer time, ...), but when it spawns ally npc, it is useless... like... completely useless.
    Instabilities need another rework and this time, much more effort and creativity needs to be put into it. Instabilities are very important for especially non-CM fractals, to keep them interesting, enjoyable and fun. Removing instabilities would result in fractals getting boring after a while. However, there should be option to do any fractal without any instability but with no or very little reward after completing it.
    Anyway... please less aids reworks and more fun gameplay :)

  • @KidRoleplay.3615 said:

    @Aaron Forestman.4758 said:
    Today's difficulties with it had to do with getting Afflicted as an instability. He's supposed to just pulse some light damage during the invulnerable phases, but Anet forgot to make that not trigger afflicted. Thus we get tons of unavoidable condis.

    Begs the question, will it trigger Outflanked in the future, or Stick Together, or Sugar Rush?

    Stick Together apparently isn't supposed to trigger in Aquatic, according to this wiki:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists#Mistlock_Instability

    Neither should Vengeance have been by the way. I forgot to check what instabilities we actually got, but I read above that we did get it today. Perhaps a bug?

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2019

    @Angelweave.1856 said:
    Been trying to get the new jellyfish with 4 seperate teams... we can not get past the 2nd phase. The fish does not follow into the electricity. What is the mechanic now?

    For Deep Water (dark path)?
    Move as a group and continuously pickup luminous plants as you go to refresh the duration. Move along the right wall to avoid jellyfish patrols (getting hit will remove the "light"/luminious plant you're currently holding). Dodging forward does propels you faster and might be forced to do so to reach the final safe spot; batch of luminious plant before the Champion Krait.

    Champion Krait.
    Contrary to many believe, luminous plants doesn't play any role in this fight (the zone around the champion is free from piranha). Stacking in 1 spot will just get your party obliterated by an aoe field (the animation is hardly noticeable, invisible at times/due to camera angle :angry:). Move away asap if you notice high damage/condi stacking up(confusion). Condi cleanse and CC helps.

    Jellyfish.
    Never tried moving it therefore could be wrong here, but felt this boss is now stationary. But you want to be in melee range in order for it to devour one of your party members. For the devoured player, will need a considerable reaction speed to press the correct buttons (5 times in T4?) to be freed which. This will apply "weakness" debuff to the Boss making it vulnerable to damage. Failure will be rewarded with death (NO downstate) :anguished:. CC is useless for this fight.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    It feels like an actual Fractal now and once people adjust and come prepared with a somewhat decent underwater build to swap to, it's really not bad.

    I keep hearing that every time there's a change to a fractal. And in the end what happens is always one of two things:
    if the difficulty remains the same, but the fractal just requires slightly different changes to the strategy, players do adjust, and eventually everything works exactly as before. No meaningful change happens.
    If the new version actually requires more effort/commitments, players do not adjust. Some of them just start skipping on that fractal from now on (and i don;t mean people dropping to a lower fractal tier - most of them actually just don't bother to do the fractal at all anymore). Average skill level of players doing it rises, but only because the least skilled ones are removed from the equation. Not because players got more skilled, because the improvement curve of each individual player remains unchanged - they keep improving at exactly the same rate they improved when the older version was present.

    So, the end result is just a reduced population of players doing the content. But hey, at least it "feels like an actual fractal now".

    What alternative do you propose? Every fractal is swim/walk to a boss and then use random skills you didn't even bother to read what they do and comfortably beat the encounter on the highest difficulty available?

    No, balancing to average difficulty (and not insisting on everything being exactly the same) would have been perfectly fine. It's okay of some fractals are a bit easier, just as it is okay that some are a bit harder. Instead, Anet prefers to balance up now, both on the difficulty and completion length scale. Remember, when each fractal was supposed to be a relatively short experience? I do, but Anet seems to have forgotten.
    If you want harder difficulty content there, that's what CMs are for.

    Also, not touching Underwater fractal until after you've polished underwater combat and made it something more finished than an early beta would probably be another great idea.

    When you change content that way, all you achieve is sending a message to all people that were fine with it up until now, but are no longer fine after the change. The message is "we don't want you there". That's not a good message to send to your players.

    Then we maybe have population, for a time, but just like story and open world no actual enjoyable and engaging content to play with.

    If people don't actually want to play the game and just get loot for menial tasks that just require time as opposed to effort, then what is the point of playing? And what do you do once you got the shinies you want if the content is just mind numbing easy and unenjoyable in of itself?

    I didn't consider it unenjoying. It started being that way only after Anet started messing with difficulty levels.

    At least the people who still play after those Fractals are made more interesting and engaging are there to play and improve.

    And i am sure it will be more interesting and engaging for them up until the point Anet abandons fractals due to population getting too low to bother. And only then the screams will start, and everyone will be surprised.

    In this case specifically, the Instabilities were causing more trouble than anything else and I gladly take a bet that most groups who struggled with it today didn't bring boon rip and condi cleanses for NPNG, Vengeance and Afflicted. That wasn't even the fractal being too difficult, just people refusing to bring appropriate tools.

    Well, yeah, instabilities are another problem that should be addressed. They originally were meant to offer some slight variations to fractal runs, in order to shake things up and make them more interesting. Instead those are something that has almost no impact on the top 10% of fractal runners (as those groups can pretty much ignore them). on the other hand, for average (and below average) groups, there are some instabilities that can easily turn an usual smooth run into a complete nightmare. Afflicted is near the top of that list on any fractal with more than just a few enemies.

    Like before, they are another case of Anet forgetting the community doesn't consist of only highly skilled players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    What alternative do you propose? Every fractal is swim/walk to a boss and then use random skills you didn't even bother to read what they do and comfortably beat the encounter on the highest difficulty available?

    I never intended for this thread to be an opportunity for complaining about the new difficulty. In fact, the exact opposite. I said in more than one way that difficulty doesn't enter the equation, because this fractal isn't difficult. Wasn't before, isn't now. It requires zero change in strategy. You can still just mindlessly brute force it with a druid like every other T4 fractal provided the bare minimum of situational awareness. The issue is it's a pointless change that serves to add nothing engaging or compelling to what was already the worst fractal in the roster - it's simply padding out the least developed form of content in GW2 which feels more like a gimmick or seasonal minigame than anything else. All this change has done is force you to spend longer in a boring scenario without any increase in satisfaction or tangible reward while mired in new mechanics which only frustrate.

    An addendum: Imagine if they took Solid Ocean, a fractal which requires no concentration or skill, and increased the Jade Maw's health by 5000%. They've not added anything meaningful to the fractal. It's just padding nobody cares about, forcing you to spend longer on a fight that largely plays itself. That's how Aquatic was before, that's how it is now, the only difference is you have to change targets a grand total of seven times while suffering constant radial condi you can do nothing to avoid. Frankly, if they'd insisted on changing old fractals Solid Ocean deserves it far more than Aquatic. Aquatic's problem is fundamental and any solution is a waste of time. Molten Furnace was in my opinion a good change. Doing similar to Solid Ocean would have been vastly better than this Aquatic change.

  • yLoon.5289yLoon.5289 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    My team GG twice and manage to get through Aquatic T4 on the 3rd try.
    The Conditions you get during the Elite Krait phase can be counter with Guardian's Trident4, Shield Avenger, Sanctuary. It is the floating "black hand" that gives you the condition. Hence, any projectile absorb will neutralize the threat I think xD.
    Conditions cleansing skills are great for that phase too.
    The new aquatic fractal is quite enjoyable for me. Kudos to arena developers.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    For those claiming the new changes are good and makes thing challenging, it doesn't...it makes it DUMBER. See, there's a difference between challenge and...whatever this is. Challenge is when you're pushed to adapt and get better. This....this is just tedious...this doesn't challenge people, it just annoys them. There's just not much you can do underwater: movement is really slow and static and classes don't even have access to some of their skills! Without any sort of fix to underwater, you're pretty much just kneecapping players for no reason!

    Gigantic thumbs down on this change. Aquatic Ruins will now be cemented as the _ WORST_ fractal in the game.

    Actually, this is challenging by your own definition. As people are now required to adapt and get better. You can no longer just spam #1 while watching netflix on the side.
    Now, fractal actually requires your attention, group coordination, proper gear and potential build modification (depending on profession)

    Also, movement isn't slow underwater. As far as I know, almost all professions have some sort of gap closer on their weapon or utility. And you are not even required to move that much for this particular fractal. This fractal is first underwater content that actually will force people to learn their underwater skills instead of just going "12345" while yawning.

    Also, the change to "struggle" while you are consumed by Jellyfish is extra dicey. Now your skill number changes, so this can actually kill you if you are not paying attention. More fractals should have this mechanic, not less

    I give this fractal 22/22 water-skis and a bag of mandarins

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Now, fractal actually requires your attention, group coordination, proper gear and potential build modification (depending on profession)

    Why should anyone invest in this crappy underwater gear just for ONE fractal encounter ??????????????????????????
    TF underwater kitten is doing in "high end" pve content ? Had enough of this in pve/story.
    Inb4 they make underwater expansion and raid bosses, LOL.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Either they fix underwater combat or remove it from the endgame entirely.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Now, fractal actually requires your attention, group coordination, proper gear and potential build modification (depending on profession)

    Why should anyone invest in this crappy underwater gear just for ONE fractal encounter ??????????????????????????
    TF underwater kitten is doing in "high end" pve content ? Had enough of this in pve/story.
    Inb4 they make underwater expansion and raid bosses, LOL.

    You don't have to. But then don't complain if you cant do the content that "requires" better gear than the one you have. Also, saying that you need to "invest" into underwater gear is way to much of an overstatement. You need to get literally two items (which shouldn't be a problem if you are doing T4 anyhow) + one rune to complete your rune set

    Boy, what a investment. How dares an MMORPG demand that i get better gear if I want to do content /s

  • Oogabooga.3812Oogabooga.3812 Member ✭✭✭

    2 suggestions:

    The condition damage scale from the elite stages needs to go down (Afflicted was especially brutal). Our poor ele just couldn't live past a few seconds with his low health pool.

    Once all elite krait are dead, the dead of the group ought to revive a la Nightmare fractal,

    Otherwise I'm fine with the changes.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Now, fractal actually requires your attention, group coordination, proper gear and potential build modification (depending on profession)

    Why should anyone invest in this crappy underwater gear just for ONE fractal encounter ??????????????????????????
    TF underwater kitten is doing in "high end" pve content ? Had enough of this in pve/story.
    Inb4 they make underwater expansion and raid bosses, LOL.

    You don't have to. But then don't complain if you cant do the content that "requires" better gear than the one you have. Also, saying that you need to "invest" into underwater gear is way to much of an overstatement. You need to get literally two items (which shouldn't be a problem if you are doing T4 anyhow) + one rune to complete your rune set

    Boy, what a investment. How dares an MMORPG demand that i get better gear if I want to do content /s

    That wasnt the main point(that you ignored, I love such people /s) that I dont want to waste any gold for badly designed kitten like this underwater fractal(and underwater combat in general).
    Underwater combat present only during core part of the game and its the worst part of it, many skills are disabled underwater. High quality content /s

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No, balancing to average difficulty (and not insisting on everything being exactly the same) would have been perfectly fine. It's okay of some fractals are a bit easier, just as it is okay that some are a bit harder. Instead, Anet prefers to balance up now, both on the difficulty and completion length scale. Remember, when each fractal was supposed to be a relatively short experience? I do, but Anet seems to have forgotten.
    If you want harder difficulty content there, that's what CMs are for.

    And there are still some Fractals that are easier, Aquatic being still one of them, having been brought up to be still under the average difficulty considering proper gear and builds like one would assume people have for endgame content, like all other Fractals.
    Every time Anet changes anything ppl cry to the mists about it just to then wonder why they do so little sweeping changes which a lot of stuff desperately needs.
    Fractals take 5-8 Minutes, CM's take 10-15 minutes each. That's a short experience.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, not touching Underwater fractal until after you've polished underwater combat and made it something more finished than an early beta would probably be another great idea.

    They did touch up underwater combat significantly quite a while ago. DPS is about the same as on land now and most Utility you might need is available.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    When you change content that way, all you achieve is sending a message to all people that were fine with it up until now, but are no longer fine after the change. The message is "we don't want you there". That's not a good message to send to your players.

    Well if that is the message you get then I'm sorry. The message I get is "We haven't forgotten about you, yea this was boring, we still want you to play this so we are going to update it, here's an opportunity to grow as player, have fun!"
    If people wouldn't be so incredibly negative about any update in every gamemode all the time, maybe anet wouldn't have gone so silent and stagnant for all these past years.
    It seems like no matter what they change and how, people are there already waiting to hate it.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And i am sure it will be more interesting and engaging for them up until the point Anet abandons fractals due to population getting too low to bother. And only then the screams will start, and everyone will be surprised.

    Population has been dipping for quite some time by keeping easy and boring Fractals around. Updating old content and trying to improve and vary experiences isn't exactly going to make that much worse, if not the opposite.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Well, yeah, instabilities are another problem that should be addressed. They originally were meant to offer some slight variations to fractal runs, in order to shake things up and make them more interesting. Instead those are something that has almost no impact on the top 10% of fractal runners (as those groups can pretty much ignore them). on the other hand, for average (and below average) groups, there are some instabilities that can easily turn an usual smooth run into a complete nightmare. Afflicted is near the top of that list on any fractal with more than just a few enemies.

    Like before, they are another case of Anet forgetting the community doesn't consist of only highly skilled players.

    In fact some of these Instabilities do that job quite well and my group and I find myself swapping some skills and Traits almost every Fractal to deal with things like We Bleed Fire, Afflicted and No Pain No Gain which is quite fun and engaging. So clearly at least some of those actually do their job well.
    Of course those are some of the most complained about Instabilities, because people don't want variation or engagement, but just a static brainless farm.
    But imo, that's not what Fractals are supposed to be.

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    I never intended for this thread to be an opportunity for complaining about the new difficulty. In fact, the exact opposite. I said in more than one way that difficulty doesn't enter the equation, because this fractal isn't difficult. Wasn't before, isn't now. It requires zero change in strategy. You can still just mindlessly brute force it with a druid like every other T4 fractal provided the bare minimum of situational awareness.

    I agree that it isn't difficult, but clearly some people are struggling with it and it does require some change of Strategy, even if it's just that you can't burst the boss in 5-15 seconds running 5 DPS anymore. If there wasn't any change nobody would complain.
    This Fractal got farmed in literally a minute. Is it perfect now? No. But it's better.

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    An addendum: Imagine if they took Solid Ocean, a fractal which requires no concentration or skill, and increased the Jade Maw's health by 5000%. They've not added anything meaningful to the fractal. It's just padding nobody cares about, forcing you to spend longer on a fight that largely plays itself. That's how Aquatic was before, that's how it is now, the only difference is you have to change targets a grand total of seven times while suffering constant radial condi you can do nothing to avoid. Frankly, if they'd insisted on changing old fractals Solid Ocean deserves it far more than Aquatic. Aquatic's problem is fundamental and any solution is a waste of time. Molten Furnace was in my opinion a good change. Doing similar to Solid Ocean would have been vastly better than this Aquatic change.

    Solid Ocean does need some changes, yes. But SO isn't completed in a minute so padding out health isn't what's needed, nor equivalent to what they have done with Aquatic.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • It used to be mostly boring, now it is mostly annoying. I can't really say which I like less.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And i am sure it will be more interesting and engaging for them up until the point Anet abandons fractals due to population getting too low to bother. And only then the screams will start, and everyone will be surprised.

    Population has been dipping for quite some time by keeping easy and boring Fractals around. Updating old content and trying to improve and vary experiences isn't exactly going to make that much worse, if not the opposite.

    Sure. Which is why the first visible significant dip in population happened around the time Anet introduced Nightmare, and then Shattered Observatory. The two easiest and most boring fractals so far
    ...oh wait.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Katary.7096 said:
    It used to be mostly boring, now it is mostly annoying. I can't really say which I like less.

    Obviously neither is optimal, but at least annoying is an indication that you are being challenged in some way and something you can possibly overcome with the right mentality. Maybe there are some builds/skills you can bring to make it less annoying after you identify what the issue is, turning initial annoyance into engagement with the content.

    Boredom is the sometimes slow but sure death of any game that's supposed to be played for fun.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And i am sure it will be more interesting and engaging for them up until the point Anet abandons fractals due to population getting too low to bother. And only then the screams will start, and everyone will be surprised.

    Population has been dipping for quite some time by keeping easy and boring Fractals around. Updating old content and trying to improve and vary experiences isn't exactly going to make that much worse, if not the opposite.

    Sure. Which is why the first visible significant dip in population happened around the time Anet introduced Nightmare, and then Shattered Observatory. The two easiest and most boring fractals so far
    ...oh wait.

    Well, they are by far the two best Fractals, especially the CM's. Considering a large part of this community is allergic to good and challenging content and rather presses F on things in the open world, I wouldn't even be surprised if that were true.
    Were they really the demographic for challenging endgame content in the first place then though, or just there for some easy farm which they are just doing somewhere else now?
    At least the people who enjoy the content for what it is were and are very happy with those additions and I don't think Fractals still would have any hardcore community at all anymore without them.

    You can't dumb all content down to the lowest denominator for the sake of "population". This is like the "Jobs" be all end all argument in rl. It doesn't work out if you want to make at least someone happy or have any sort of progress some are going to be unhappy or left behind. The alternative is worse.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Pirindolo.9427Pirindolo.9427 Member ✭✭✭

    Challenging or not, hard or easy, annoying or superannoying... all that doesn't really matter when you are talking of a SINGLE FIGHT that takes 20 minutes of spam combat. Too many phases, too many HP.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pirindolo.9427 said:
    Challenging or not, hard or easy, annoying or superannoying... all that doesn't really matter when you are talking of a SINGLE FIGHT that takes 20 minutes of spam combat. Too many phases, too many HP.

    Again, that's not a problem with the Fractal, but the lack of proper builds/gear.
    The Jellyfish really shouldn't take more than 2-5 minutes on T4 still, or there is something wrong on your groups end.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm fine with most of the changes but all the recent fractals have sources of unavoidable damage. There is no mechanic you have to do properly to avoid it. The aura on the jelly fight even triggered afflicted which required our ren to spam ressistance the entire fight.
    They really want to make healers a thing in fractals but then the incoming damage is too low to make it challening. There is no threat at all with a healing Fb in the group but recent design almost requires some kind of healer.

  • @Asum.4960 said:
    Obviously neither is optimal, but at least annoying is an indication that you are being challenged in some way and something you can possibly overcome with the right mentality. Maybe there are some builds/skills you can bring to make it less annoying after you identify what the issue is, turning initial annoyance into engagement with the content.

    It really wasn't though. Yesterday was the first time that I got to play the new aquatic fractal and we cleared it on the first attempt. [pug group] That didn't feel like a challenge. It would obviously be unfair to compare it to CM Nightmare or CM Shattered Observatory, since it isn't a CM, but that is how to create an engaging challenge in GW2 fractals. Reworked aquatic isn't that. And I think we have a different understanding of annoying. Getting sand in your eyes is clearly annoying, but I don't exactly think of washing it out as an exciting challenge to overcome.

    Boredom is the sometimes slow but sure death of any game that's supposed to be played for fun.

    I will give them credit for recognizing that the old aquatic was a problem, but I won't agree that this rework is a success.

  • Pirindolo.9427Pirindolo.9427 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Pirindolo.9427 said:
    Challenging or not, hard or easy, annoying or superannoying... all that doesn't really matter when you are talking of a SINGLE FIGHT that takes 20 minutes of spam combat. Too many phases, too many HP.

    Again, that's not a problem with the Fractal, but the lack of proper builds/gear.
    The Jellyfish really shouldn't take more than 2-5 minutes on T4 still, or there is something wrong on your groups end.

    Again, it takes 20 minutes for a regular pug in regular gear (in my case, full ascended).

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Pirindolo.9427 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Pirindolo.9427 said:
    Challenging or not, hard or easy, annoying or superannoying... all that doesn't really matter when you are talking of a SINGLE FIGHT that takes 20 minutes of spam combat. Too many phases, too many HP.

    Again, that's not a problem with the Fractal, but the lack of proper builds/gear.
    The Jellyfish really shouldn't take more than 2-5 minutes on T4 still, or there is something wrong on your groups end.

    Again, it takes 20 minutes for a regular pug in regular gear (in my case, full ascended).

    Since I somehow doubt the Jellyfish, including adds, has 100 million HP (2-5 times the amount of a 10 man Raid boss) or more, you must be doing something drastically wrong build wise then.
    Otherwise that's just not possible, probably even if just autoattacking.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Athef.6879Athef.6879 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Solid Ocean does need some changes, yes. But SO isn't completed in a minute so padding out health isn't what's needed, nor equivalent to what they have done with Aquatic.

    Except it is. They added a Champion guarding the entrance - absolutely no challenge whatsoever, just more HP to chew through. They removed boss's CC bar and gave him 3 invulnerability stages, which accounts to 6 Elite Krait if I remember correctly? These do radial damage which you cannot avoid = no engaging content so far, just more and more HP added into the fight, people are still standing around the boss spamming random keys. The only actually fun thing they added was the mechanic of breaking free from when you get caged by the boss, which is no longer a boring 1-key spam. That hardly makes this a good update imo.

  • @Asum.4960 said:
    Obviously neither is optimal, but at least annoying is an indication that you are being challenged in some way and something you can possibly overcome with the right mentality. Maybe there are some builds/skills you can bring to make it less annoying after you identify what the issue is, turning initial annoyance into engagement with the content.

    I'd argue that's not true in the least. Annoying =/= challenged. Naturally, this depends on mindset to some an extent, but as someone who advocates for fractals being made more difficult through mechanics that actually require your attention or can be affected by your personal participation I can only think Aquatic is a bad example for both cases. 99CM and 100CM I'd consider legitimate challenges and a perfect implementation of what I'd want and I've never been annoyed or even frustrated with the fractals themselves - the players I'm grouped with, certainly, but that doesn't mean anything mechanically is off with those fractals. Annoyance only comes from repeated failure or letting yourself down when knowing you're not performing as well as you should be when an encounter is done properly. For Aquatic, it comes in the form of things like being subjected to a pulsing condi field with the range of a solar system, having to avoid melee if you don't want to spend five seconds CC into oblivion every half a minute, grinding through a neverending supply of health bars which throw things at you allowing no counter-play including the bare minimum of CC phases. None of those are things which plague 99CM or 100CM despite a significantly higher difficulty. Key difference as I see it is one's underwater and thus its problems I'm left believing are symptomatic, and the other two are in the vein of what ANet had gotten good at designing.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Since I somehow doubt the Jellyfish, including adds, has 100 million HP (2-5 times the amount of a 10 man Raid boss) or more, you must be doing something drastically wrong build wise then.

    Less buffs, less average base class damage (because underwated builds for the most part - barring maybe rangers - aren't as efficient), only 5 players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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