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Simple story on why some players are upset when it comes to balance

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 30, 2019 in Professions

Story

Necro capping sentry.

Thief out of nowhere.

  • 325 (Nourishment)
  • 1,918 (infiltrator's Strike)
  • 1,902 (Steal)
  • 1,156 (Pistol Whip)
  • 2,310 (Pistol Whip)
  • 133 (Poisoned)
  • 2,267 (Pistol Whip)
  • 2,310 (Pistol Whip)
  • 2,245 (Pistol Whip)
  • 1,049 (Pistol Whip)
  • 325 (Nourishment)
  • Interrupt (Pistol Whip)
  • 2,264 (Pistol Whip)
  • 2,264 (Pistol Whip)
  • 2,264 (Pistol Whip)
  • 1,693 (Infiltrator's Strike)
  • Evade (Head Shot)
  • 2,036 (Infiltrator's Strike)
  • 1,737 (Slice)
  • 1,803 (Slash)
  • 325 (Nourishment)
  • 2,048 (Steal)
  • Interrupt (Steal)
  • 3,899 (Crippling Strike)
  • Absorb (Crippled)
  • Absorb (Weakness)
  • Absorb (Slice)
  • 807 (Black Powder)
  • 325 (Nourishment)
  • 755 (Black Powder)

Options after thousands of encounters like the above

1 Switch Professions and load up a broken build to stand a chance of winning

Or

2 Come to forums to complain (Obviously my choice tonight)

Wall of Text Rant

I came from a game where a "Thief" could sit in perma-invisibility and hit super hard, yet way more manageable to fight against than here. Where is my Hard CC lock down build that can drop 22k damage in 2-3 seconds, then port away to safety? Then port back and finish the job? Where is my optional stealth and ports and evades? Where are my fast casting skills? Why doesn't Life Force refill automatically like Initiative? Why do things like remove an evade from Ranger GS auto-chain, but keep a spammable Daze and Evade on Pistol Whip? Why doesn't there seem to be anyone that really cares about the state of professions and combat for wvw and spvp? …Yeah, some of those are sarcasm, sorry.

Combat on the competitive side of this game is a huge mess. Yes, this thread highlights 1 extreme from Thief, but there are broken things and unnecessary designs on every Profession that make jumping into pvp play not fun... Maybe fun for the players who think Stun-Lock CC nuke kills are fun, compelling and takes real skill, but I can guarantee that's not the case for the majority. And there are multiple reasons why E-Sports didn't take off, even though E-Sports was a huge consideration when it came to profession designs, and 1 of those reasons is the ability to nuke a player in the matter of seconds.

Yes, I was a big pvper, long ago and in another game, but this game makes me dislike pvp. Idk.

Edit- And this is an example of a “twitch” based “Reaper” design, unlike what we have here... And if we are going to have “twitch” gameplay then all professions need to similar “twitch” capabilities bc balance.

Comments

  • Erzian.5218Erzian.5218 Member ✭✭✭

    Pistol whip.. is this 2012?

  • Erzian.5218Erzian.5218 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    Necro is not a roamer, just like thief and ranger perform poorly in large fights. Classes do have different roles in gw2. Would some necro players like to roam? Surely, but other classes are better at it. Would some thief players like to participate in large fights? Surely, but other classes (e.g. necro) are much better for that.

  • Problem with balancing...

    Too long of a wait for a too short list of changes.

    Barely any QoL reworks.

    Meta barely shakes, how long have FB and Scourge been ruling the WvW zerging seen, or a Spellbreaker/Holo in PvP. It's like those below meta fluctuate, yet the rulers barely fall to balanced/acceptable.

    Some plays are of literally no counterplay. It's not a MOBA where a fed player gets to delete others.

    Last thing from an Ele PoV, I don't want numbers only as changes. Yeah, numbers are higher, but the class isn't meta in GvGs, wasn't even used in raid tournament for #1 benchmark class and it's only a single build in PvP. Need reworks regarding less used or useless skills/traits/etc; not just for Ele, but other classes.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • I wonder why Infiltrator's Strike doesn't have a 5 second cooldown like Phase Traversal. It's funny how differently energy based skills are treated compared to initiative...

  • If thief worries you, bring 1-2 stun breaks with you, and make sure you land 1-2 CC on the boy.

    Basically, if he has high DMG, his capacity to evade/escape are more limited. If his evade are high, his DMG is lower.

    Pistol whip really is predictable, and there is a decent window to interupt/counter it, plus another window when the thief becomes vulnerable at the end with the aftercast animation.
    Hence the reason why you usually don't see it that much in high level rating.

    If you want, I can show you how to evade it/destroy that sort of thief. It is not "that" simple, but not that hard either once you know how... and it eventually becomes fairly easy. :-)

  • So ur team fighting build gets beaten by a roaming build so nerf the roaming build. Makes sense lol

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So ur team fighting build gets beaten by a roaming build so nerf the roaming build. Makes sense lol

    What would make sense is if you bothered to read the op and realized I didn’t ask for any nerfs. And you’re clearly missing the messages too.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    I’m gonna give some of you some insight... And consider this before attempting another insult...

    Anet always planned on gw2 being an e-sport. And that was a big factor in development.

    Balance was part of the complaints about the competitive side.

    Thousands and thousands and thousands of complaints about balance and other profession related problems.

    E-sports isn’t a thing anymore, obviously.

    ...So at least I make an effort to look at other ways to balance professions and improve gameplay around the above facts, unlike some around these parts. I get it, though, some like broken toys and don’t really care about anything beyond that. But maybe once in a while try to think why E-sports didn’t go anywhere, and why there are constant complaints about the same issues over and over and over...

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So ur team fighting build gets beaten by a roaming build so nerf the roaming build. Makes sense lol

    What would make sense is if you bothered to read the op and realized I didn’t ask for any nerfs. And you’re clearly missing the messages too.

    Hmmm I came from a game where thief had more stealth access but was still easier to deal with etc while previously listing u unreal spam fest of pistol whip as if thief had infinite ini. Not hard to see what the intent of post is. Whether theres more balance passes or not their will always be a ton of balance related post due to the fact true balance is a un catchable carrot but its obviously still needs to be strived for. Let's also not forget the bias of human nature also relating to balance passes. Whether esport stayed or not or if balance was decent enough for a shot at gw2 being a esport do u think balance complaints would stop? In a game where u can chain imobilize,stun, forced cd's, daze and knock down a opponent followed by a burst that will or almost down the player I doubt any real semblance of balance is achievable lol. Unless the game mechanics and most of the kills are overhauled throughout every class I don't see a huge change to balance coming any time soon that's gonna lessen the posts regarding bad balance in this game. I'm sure more changes are to come and as always some good, a lot bad and even more that are confusing as this is gw2 lol

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    Problem with balancing...

    Too long of a wait for a too short list of changes.

    Barely any QoL reworks.

    Meta barely shakes, how long have FB and Scourge been ruling the WvW zerging seen, or a Spellbreaker/Holo in PvP. It's like those below meta fluctuate, yet the rulers barely fall to balanced/acceptable.

    Some plays are of literally no counterplay. It's not a MOBA where a fed player gets to delete others.

    Last thing from an Ele PoV, I don't want numbers only as changes. Yeah, numbers are higher, but the class isn't meta in GvGs, wasn't even used in raid tournament for #1 benchmark class and it's only a single build in PvP. Need reworks regarding less used or useless skills/traits/etc; not just for Ele, but other classes.

    Well said.

    Before i am committed to a game, that is what i look for, frequent balancing.

    I am extremely proud of being committed to others with no regret.

    Even tommorows patch wilp not change my mind until there's a new design team and a new balance team.

    Perhaps than i will reconsider

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Erzian.5218 said:
    Necro is not a roamer, just like thief and ranger perform poorly in large fights. Classes do have different roles in gw2. Would some necro players like to roam? Surely, but other classes are better at it. Would some thief players like to participate in large fights? Surely, but other classes (e.g. necro) are much better for that.

    Yeah. I too don't understand how people haven't concluded that certain classes aren't good at things. I'm also continually impressed about how those players assume something is wrong and it needs to be fixed because they aren't.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Place 1 fear mark under you when you start capping, and already there 30% of the damage would be avoided.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Erzian.5218 said:
    Necro is not a roamer, just like thief and ranger perform poorly in large fights. Classes do have different roles in gw2. Would some necro players like to roam? Surely, but other classes are better at it. Would some thief players like to participate in large fights? Surely, but other classes (e.g. necro) are much better for that.

    Yeah. I too don't understand how people haven't concluded that certain classes aren't good at things. I'm also continually impressed about how those players assume something is wrong and it needs to be fixed because they aren't.

    Also what specify a roamer?

    I've absolutely roflstomped the typical lb/gs soulbeast the same hour I've gotten my kitten handed to me by a vanilla necro. And then the next hour I've curbstomped a reaper but couldnt even touch yet another soulbeast.

    Classes arent roamers

    Players are roamers

    And some of them are better than others on their class.

    Surprised Pikachu face

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The whole roamer vs not roamer issue is not the real problem.
    The real problem is counter-play options and availability

    No doubt some builds in this game have very very limited counter-play options some times those options are so few in number that only a few classes can stand up to it.

    People complain because there is nothing worse than feeling like "you didnt have a chance to do anything" Regardless of what you are playing people expect to feel that they have a chance or a turn to play their strats.

    IF this is constantly denied or locked down by another professions kit with super super limited options to try and make a move it can be very frustrating. It also does not help that alot of people who run builds like this have god complexes and can be pretty toxic in general.
    The issue becomes worse when the person on the receiving end looks deep into their own profession to find that they do not have a powerful option that does the same thing and they grow even more frustrated.

    While it is true thief and mesmer are great duelist and necro (can potentially) rain down destruction in a team fight (depending on how oblivious your team or the enemy team) is it does not mean that a person should feel that there is nothing they can do. When builds like this rise up anet should rightfully shoot them down for something that offers wider range of counter-play.

    Mirage CI is a good example of a build with very limited counter-play getting out of hand.
    The initial launch of scourge is another good example (even if it was bugged)
    Perma stealth deadeye initially when you didn't have to attack to gain malice was another good example

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People are upset about balancing because the game say to play what you want to play but ultimately if you do you more than often run into a wall. People are upset about balancing because they feel forced to play meta builds. People are upset about balancing because they want to be able to play a tank, a support or a DPS with any profession without encountering this frustrating wall that's called the "meta" and say that "you can't do that". People want to be able to run freely in the zerg without being told that their build suck, people want to enter PvE raid without being told that their profession suck and that they should reroll, people want to have fun in PvP without having half their team throw the match because the team perform poorly... etc.

    Half of the griefs can be attributed to the players "meta" mentality but the other half come from a balancing that favor offensive stats over defensive stat in a system where boons make or break you whether you have defensive stats or not. The game have walked a path where the notion of build trade off have been blurred to the extrem, everybody want to be the very best at everything without having any weakness. As soon as a weakness appear, they beg for the weakness to disappear and ANet gracefully give them what they want. Heck! ANet design elite spec with no tradeoff to satisfy their customers, mirage, scourge, spell breaker, soul beast... etc. All of them gain defense, offense and support at absolutely no cost.

    People want balance to be fair and while some want to see tradeoff as a garantee of fairness a good chunk of those peoples just want to be powercrept at the same level of the most powercrept profession.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    the real problema are the cheating players, the animation cancel/exploit plus macro users, they can just unload all the skills in 1-2s and you can't do nothing

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Erzian.5218 said:
    Necro is not a roamer, just like thief and ranger perform poorly in large fights. Classes do have different roles in gw2. Would some necro players like to roam? Surely, but other classes are better at it. Would some thief players like to participate in large fights? Surely, but other classes (e.g. necro) are much better for that.

    Yeah. I too don't understand how people haven't concluded that certain classes aren't good at things. I'm also continually impressed about how those players assume something is wrong and it needs to be fixed because they aren't.

    Also what specify a roamer?

    I've absolutely roflstomped the typical lb/gs soulbeast the same hour I've gotten my kitten handed to me by a vanilla necro. And then the next hour I've curbstomped a reaper but couldnt even touch yet another soulbeast.

    Classes arent roamers

    Players are roamers

    And some of them are better than others on their class.

    Surprised Pikachu face

    This is so ignorant. You completely disregard the advantages certain classes provide while solo roaming vs others. Imo roaming is like 50% class and build, 30% scenario and 20% player. It was not like this before but its like this now.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @Erzian.5218 said:
    Pistol whip.. is this 2012?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Strike

    “Shadowstep to a foe and strike them. Use Shadow Return[sic] to shadowstep back and cure one condition.
      
    Damage: 275 (0.75)
    Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.
    Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement Speed
    Number of Targets: 3
    Range: 900”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal Plus
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_Hand

    “Stealing also dazes the target. Reduces the recharge of Steal.

     Daze: 1 second
     Recharge Reduced: 20%”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip

    “Dual Wield. Pistol-whip your foe, stunning them, then slash repeatedly with your sword.

    Initial Damage: 136 (0.37)
    Damage (4x): 1,160 (3.16)
    Stun: ¾ seconds
    Range: 130”

    “The attack is two-phased:

    • The opening hit is a single-target stun with a coefficient of 0.37 (Movement will not interrupt this part).
    • You will then Evade and cleave 4 times with a coefficient of 0.79 (Moving now will cancel the skill). The evasion window lasts for ~1.25 seconds.”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip

    “Dual Wield. Pistol-whip your foe, stunning them, then slash repeatedly with your sword.

    Initial Damage: 136 (0.37)
    Damage (4x): 1,160 (3.16)
    Stun: ¾ seconds
    Range: 130”

    “The attack is two-phased:

    • The opening hit is a single-target stun with a coefficient of 0.37 (Movement will not interrupt this part).
    • You will then Evade and cleave 4 times with a coefficient of 0.79 (Moving now will cancel the skill). The evasion window lasts for ~1.25 seconds.”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Return

    “Return to your original location. Cure one condition.

     Duration: 15s
     Range: 1,200”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze

    “Daze is an effect caused by some skills which interrupts and prevents the target from using skills for a period of time.”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

    “Stun is a control effect that disables all skills and interrupts any current action. Stunned characters cannot move or activate skills, except those without an activation time, e.g. shouts and some signets. Stun breakers will restore one's freedom to act. Despite its in-game description, there is no evidence that the duration of stun stacks.”

    So port in, daze, stun plus evade, stun plus evade, port away... and do enormous damage in the process.

    If you think being hard cced over and over and over while dropping a ton of damage are quality mechanics, plus being able to maneuver all over the battlefield and completely avoid damage, then I want build options to have those types of fast and hard hitting cc skills on my necro too. I’m sure you’d have zero problem with necro being more than just a immobile and slow casting health sack.