Build Templates might be some form of Pay to Win

I never bothered with the ArcDPS build templates, so they are new to me in practice.

I like the idea and already have some different builds I would like to use in WvW. I would switch depending on the situation and the enemy's class and even rough build. I play mainly thief, and like with other classes, there are different builds that work better in fights against specific classes. My all purpose build used to be staff/PP Daredevil full berserker. There is almost no necro that can beat this, so this would be my preferred setup when I approach a camp and I'm about to fight a sitting duck necro.

Now, if I see a Guardian taking that camp, my build is much less useful with all those defensive capabilities Guardian has. If we are similarily skilled players, I'll certainly lose. The idea is to quickly switch to a more proper build before engaging.

That makes two build template slots occupied already, I guess you already see where I'm going here. Fighting a Ranger also requires another setup, same with a couple of other classes. Not to mention players want at least a roaming and a zerg build, right? The best duelling build is also not the best build to quickly cap camps. What about Revenants and Guardians, even more templates needed to stay competitive.

The point is that you have to expect other people buying all template slots possible and always be ready to have the best counter-build at hand to fight you. If you do not buy more slots, you are restricted to having the same power for only 2 other classes you fight, besides your all-purpose build.

In a competitive setting like WvW, it will soon be a significant disadvantage to not have the maximum number of slots. The game was always promoted under the premise that gem store items do not provide a competitive advantages but are mere cosmetics.

In the case of build templates, at least in WvW, I don't see how the build templates are merely cosmetics. The more you have, the greater the competitive advantage.

@Faaris.8013 said:I never bothered with the ArcDPS build templates, so they are new to me in practice.

I like the idea and already have some different builds I would like to use in WvW. I would switch depending on the situation and the enemy's class and even rough build. I play mainly thief, and like with other classes, there are different builds that work better in fights against specific classes. My all purpose build used to be staff/PP Daredevil full berserker. There is almost no necro that can beat this, so this would be my preferred setup when I approach a camp and I'm about to fight a sitting duck necro.

Now, if I see a Guardian taking that camp, my build is much less useful with all those defensive capabilities Guardian has. If we are similarily skilled players, I'll certainly lose. The idea is to quickly switch to a more proper build before engaging.

That makes two build template slots occupied already, I guess you already see where I'm going here. Fighting a Ranger also requires another setup, same with a couple of other classes. Not to mention players want at least a roaming and a zerg build, right? The best duelling build is also not the best build to quickly cap camps. What about Revenants and Guardians, even more templates needed to stay competitive.

The point is that you have to expect other people buying all template slots possible and always be ready to have the best counter-build at hand to fight you. If you do not buy more slots, you are restricted to having the same power for only 2 other classes you fight, besides your all-purpose build.

In a competitive setting like WvW, it will soon be a significant disadvantage to not have the maximum number of slots. The game was always promoted under the premise that gem store items do not provide a competitive advantages but are mere cosmetics.

In the case of build templates, at least in WvW, I don't see how the build templates are merely cosmetics. The more you have, the greater the competitive advantage.

of course. it favors those with money. and so you got to focus on only 1 char at a time to build and grow.

Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

don't think that this is big issue. Something like additional space in bag for second set. Is this competitive advantages too? no.

@LetoII.3782 said:Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

I'm sorry, but did you actually use the build templates or is this assessment just theoretical? You can switch build, skills and gear with a keyboard shortcut. Either before engaging or, if you died and realize, let's say, you need more health for the group at your home camp, you can quickly change everything with a single click on your way back to the fight.

You will never be able to do that without build templates in time. Even if you have like 7 armor sets in your inventory and are a fast clicker, there will be no fight anymore when you are done. If it was equal, nobody would ever have invented build templates...

Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

@Skotlex.7580 said:Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

Arc didn't let you swap outside of your territory.

@Skotlex.7580 said:Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

Last night you could change builds whenever wherever, so long as you were ooc.

Hopefully this is a bug .

@Faaris.8013 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

Nobody changes everything. But I've been tuning on the fly since day one. Changing everything takes maybe 20 seconds? If you're more pressed for time than that, it's because the fight was already lost and you're looking for a rematch with better stats vs. an opponent who's had no such luxury.

You will never be able to do that without build templates in time. Even if you have like 7 armor sets in your inventory and are a fast clicker, there will be no fight anymore when you are done. If it was equal, nobody would ever have invented build templates...

If you have 7 sets on one character you're doing it wrong. The presented scenario is hyperbolic if not absurd. At best a second set of armor with a weapon or two extra, maybe some trait changes... But a dozen builds is splitting hairs to miniscule to actually have game changing impact.

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Skotlex.7580 said:Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

Honestly, if we have that feature, then we should be able to use it whenever, being able to only switch in your territory gives defenders even more advantages than they already have.

You can and could change stats etc manually whenever you wanted before templates, why change that now?

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Skotlex.7580 said:Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

Yeah but you can't change stats manually, instantly. Tho manual changing would still be possible, but changing between build tabs should not be.

I think switching templates should only be in home base, where you're invincible.

Anything else is p2w

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

You will never be able to do that without build templates in time. Even if you have like 7 armor sets in your inventory and are a fast clicker, there will be no fight anymore when you are done. If it was equal, nobody would ever have invented build templates...

So, before it was absurd. Now you have 6 equipment slots to stick whatever you damn well please in so 6 sets on a character is perfectly feasible and not at all hyperbolic.Vipers, Trailblazers, Marauders, Ministrels, Celestial, and a misc mix slot. All of these are available at the push of a single button so long as you are OoC, likewise with the matching traits/utils.

There is absolutely a pay to win aspect of me being on a thief and opting to glass burst a necro finish him, then when his spellbreaker buddy comes running up I swap into a trailblazers condi build to finish then when 3 more show up I pop on ministrels with shadow arts and GTFO. Anyone who spends a very large portion of time on a class can easily come up with 6 fairly different builds that vastly improve various match ups. Even if it's something as simple as precasting a bunch of traps on your soulbeast then insta swapping into a glass burst build.

@God.2708 said:There is absolutely a pay to win aspect of me being on a thief and opting to glass burst a necro finish him, then when his spellbreaker buddy comes running up I swap into a trailblazers condi build to finish then when 3 more show up I pop on ministrels with shadow arts and GTFO. Anyone who spends a very large portion of time on a class can easily come up with 6 fairly different builds that vastly improve various match ups. Even if it's something as simple as precasting a bunch of traps on your soulbeast then insta swapping into a glass burst build.

Thanks, you have more fantasy than I have so far. I'm pretty sure when more people get used to templates they will figure out even more ways to get the maximum benefit out of them and an advantage over other fighters. I would even insta-swap from Bound to Unhindered Combatant depending on the fight.

@Taygus.4571 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@"Skotlex.7580" said:Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

But why? It allows for so much more action, if im running around solo im on a build thats rly bad in big group fights, with template i can just swap my build to a fitting one and jump right into the battle and help my team win when i see them defending a tower or keep, instead of having to walk back, change it and tgen walk again, or when i try to change it manually the fight might be already lost, or the whole objective already been taken.

So i either just watch with my roaming specc, try to swap my whole build around (its completely different, weapons, trinkets, armor, rune, traits, weapon/armor stats) and its more likely that the fight is over until im done, or i can just walk away without swapping my build, because i know i wont be able to swap in time andnwont be much of a help with my roaming specc. OR i use templates and get to jump in and have fun and be useful. To then swap back when the fight is over.

It also gives all those zergling player the chance to defend against those evil bad gankers (they they are crying about for yeeeears)

Now zerg ppl can just swap to a dueling spec when seeing an evil roamer appear on the horizon as they try to ride to their zerg, they dont manage to dodge the dismount (lag obviously) lance, the despicable roamer laughs to himself, thinking he caught himself an easy lootbag from a defenseless zergling, but the zergling doesnt panic, he turns around, smile on his face, he saw the big bad wolf approaching, he pressed 2 buttons to change his build before the lance landed and turns the tide around, the evil wolf is now getting pummeled by the superior player, because all this time he was just farming innocent zerglings with his broken cheese build, because it was only designed to counter the group oriented builds of the zerg player.

Gloriously he stands above the corpse of the roamer, proclaiming "The hunter... Has become the hunted!" as he jumps on the corpse, opens his inventory pulls up a blueprint and throws it on the body. Mounts up, swaps back to his groupspecc and joins his zerg, telling the tale of how he has slain the big bad roamer.

@LetoII.3782 said:Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

There's this guard in a camp'yeah ill wait up'

@Taygus.4571 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Skotlex.7580 said:Hmm... I read in another forum that changing templates is disabled outside the wvw keep, thus effectively preventing the concerns of OP.

Now, if that information is false, I think it will then be a necessary feature to add.

I think another possible solution is to make build swapping in WvW more like WoW. Iirc WoW build swapping has a 5sec cast time that gets cancelled if you move in order to avoid cheese.

nope./10char

@God.2708 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

You will never be able to do that without build templates in time. Even if you have like 7 armor sets in your inventory and are a fast clicker, there will be no fight anymore when you are done. If it was equal, nobody would ever have invented build templates...

Go ahead and name which class would benefit from all 5 of the named armors now, and applied to which confrontation?

You'd use 3 tops, most classes less.

There is absolutely a pay to win aspect of me being on a thief and opting to glass burst a necro finish him, then when his spellbreaker buddy comes running up I swap into a trailblazers condi build to finish then when 3 more show up I pop on ministrels with shadow arts and GTFO.

Here's absurd, you need to be out of combat to swap. If you're out of combat and wish to avoid an unfavorable match you'd mount, period

Anyone who spends a very large portion of time on a class can easily come up with 6 fairly different builds that vastly improve various match ups. Even if it's something as simple as precasting a bunch of traps on your soulbeast then insta swapping into a glass burst build.

Anyone who'd actually done this with traps (me xD) would know your utilities can't be swapped while on cooldown, no "instaswapping". This is what's meant by hyperbole, you speak of something you've not done and have only imaginary ideas about.

you got free slots. If you can not do with those free slots, you should rely re-think your choices. Because one offensive/one defensive gear slot - done. Build slots? same thing.

You can swap utilities while they're on cooldown

@SWI.4127 said:You can swap utilities while they're on cooldown

Nop

@LetoII.3782 said:

@SWI.4127 said:You can swap utilities while they're on cooldown

Actually, yes you can since an update from a year ago or so. It's just that the new utility comes with the cooldown value of the previously slotted one.

On this front, the only issue is that engineer belt skills don't share cooldown when changed, so there the issue persists.

@LetoII.3782 said:Nothing is stopping you from manually changing your build as always.

True.

@LetoII.3782 said:

@SWI.4127 said:You can swap utilities while they're on cooldown

You're wrong. Those swapped utilities will be on cooldown as well, but you CAN do it when you're out of fight.

I seriously cannot believe this is possible. It's beyond stupid.

You can prebuff yourself in a completely different spec (boons, stealth, etc), or even execute skills from other weapon sets prior to combat and instantly swap to something else (effectively having an extra weapon slot prior to combat).

Or you can kite out of combat and instantly swap to a hardcounter spec with single button press before reengaging.

It really is build wars - have your templates at the ready and plan to get in/out of combat swapping for optimal play.

I sincerely hope this gets restricted to spawn only, or at the most in the vicinity of a keep waypoint only.

This was what I feared the most, and it came true... I thought they said they will restrict the template swapping in competitive?Welp.Why did I even entertain the idea that they kept WvW in mind when making build templates?