Free RNG items

Super Hayes.6890 · August 22, 2019

@"Zuldari.3940 saidOh it is too a game problem. If they would change their loot boxes it wouldnt be considered gambling. I find it reprehensible that players support this kind of thing.

Um yeah okay. At no point did I say I support or don't support RNG. This is no different than choosing not to use the casino on a cruise ship. If my country starts saying I can't go on cruises because they have casinos there is a huge problem. I don't support gambling and don't participate but I'm not going to turn down a cruise vacation. The only thing I'll grant you is that Anet should consider doing something for their Belgium players that cannot participate. That would be above and beyond on their part and certainly shouldn't be an expectation.

Super Hayes.6890 · August 22, 2019

Apologies, I actually did post that I do not favor RNG.

castlemanic.3198 · August 23, 2019

@TheGrimm.5624 said:You see the problem here is gamers. Gamers bemoaned the practice of having to pay subs and that's how we got here to optional sales. We as gamers are our own worst enemy. Running the servers alone costs money and if you added that into the price of the expansions than people would moan about how much the expansions costs. So what are you for? Monthly charges, higher priced expansion or optional sales with expansions on the side? Or do you want them to charge us for each new map that is released as part of the living story? So you are planning on players having to buy a new expansion every two months. Not sure that will go well.
Don't get me wrong, I am for expansions but when I choose to buy from the store I do just that, I choose to. And even at that point I have a choice, convert in game currency to gems or use cash. People are already empowered in this case, they have the tools already at hand, use them.

I don't have an issue with microtransactions necessarily for a live service game like GW2, since there's no subs for gw2.

But that doesn't mean that GW2 should have gambling mechanics ala black lion chest, the mount licences and now the knife tail hunting bond thing.

If Anet wants to be ethical developers, they can create a non-rng microtransaction store. But they don't because they rely on those with gambling addictions and impulse control issues to throw money at them to make their money.

So the issue, really, is ArenaNet. It is game developers. And self-governance is a lie that corporations (not just Anet, but every corporation and company) use to get away with all the shady stuff they can in order to just make more money by taking it from customers. Arenanet has this gigantic store full of non-rng things it can continue to sell and remove or alter anything that's rng to become non-rng to make sure they don't end up hurting those with gambling addictions or impulse control or other issues.

Super Hayes.6890 · August 24, 2019

There are people out there that struggle with gaming addictions too. Should Anet shut down their game to keep those people from taking too much time from their families and jobs? Gambling addiction is a real problem as are many types of addictions but their micro-transactions are far from RNG only. Stating that Anet is preying on gamblers is simply not true.

yann.1946 · August 24, 2019

@castlemanic.3198 said:
@"TheGrimm.5624" said:You see the problem here is gamers. Gamers bemoaned the practice of having to pay subs and that's how we got here to optional sales. We as gamers are our own worst enemy. Running the servers alone costs money and if you added that into the price of the expansions than people would moan about how much the expansions costs. So what are you for? Monthly charges, higher priced expansion or optional sales with expansions on the side? Or do you want them to charge us for each new map that is released as part of the living story? So you are planning on players having to buy a new expansion every two months. Not sure that will go well.
Don't get me wrong, I am for expansions but when I choose to buy from the store I do just that, I choose to. And even at that point I have a choice, convert in game currency to gems or use cash. People are already empowered in this case, they have the tools already at hand, use them.

I don't have an issue with microtransactions necessarily for a live service game like GW2, since there's no subs for gw2.

But that doesn't mean that GW2 should have gambling mechanics ala black lion chest, the mount licences and now the knife tail hunting bond thing.

If Anet wants to be ethical developers, they can create a non-rng microtransaction store. But they don't because they rely on those with gambling addictions and impulse control issues to throw money at them to make their money.

So the issue, really, is ArenaNet. It is game developers. And self-governance is a lie that corporations (not just Anet, but every corporation and company) use to get away with all the shady stuff they can in order to just make more money by taking it from customers. Arenanet has this gigantic store full of non-rng things it can continue to sell and remove or alter anything that's rng to become non-rng to make sure they don't end up hurting those with gambling addictions or impulse control or other issues.

While I agree to some extent.

I think it is important to realise that some people like the rng for rngs sake. I bought mount licenses specifically because they where rng.

And we can't use the "we have to protect those with impulse control and addiction" argument unless you ofcourse think that we should abolish sales in general. And gw2 should be closed.

castlemanic.3198 · August 24, 2019

@"yann.1946" said:While I agree to some extent.
I think it is important to realise that some people like the rng for rngs sake. I bought mount licenses specifically because they where rng.

There's plenty of places to have RNG that can't be influenced by the gem store (and yes that does mean removing any RNG items that can be bought with gold because of the gems to gold exchange). By not having it tied to the gem store you protect the people with impulse controls and gambling addiction issues.

And we can't use the "we have to protect those with impulse control and addiction" argument unless you ofcourse think that we should abolish sales in general. And gw2 should be closed.

But we can. We absolutely can. Because the two aren't inherently tied together. You can have sales without having an infinite RNG money sink that scientific studies show act on the same parts of the brain as gambling does. The ENTIRE REST OF THE GEM STORE is everything that can be sold without RNG. GW2 can still make profits off of those things without exploiting players.

Like, this was a pretty far reach in terms of arguments.

castlemanic.3198 · August 24, 2019

@Super Hayes.6890 said:There are people out there that struggle with gaming addictions too. Should Anet shut down their game to keep those people from taking too much time from their families and jobs? Gambling addiction is a real problem as are many types of addictions but their micro-transactions are far from RNG only. Stating that Anet is preying on gamblers is simply not true.

Literally, all I've ever said on the matter is 'remove the RNG from the micro-transactions'. It's very easy to see that.

As for gaming addictions, that falls into a broader scope of socio-economic and political issues that has to do with not taking care of peoples welfare, whether that means they've become addicted to games due to IRL problems and they seek an escape or have addiction issues that reach into the gaming sphere itself, the broader socio-econimic and political issues stop these people from getting the help they need. To fix THAT is an entirely different discussion (that, yes, may have some interrelation with RNG microtransactions and their unethical nature). There's a deep dive that this forum simply doesn't have the space to tackle. There's also a deep dive into the whole 'whataboutism', which serves to distract from the actual arguments being made, but I won't get into that either.

Suffice it to say, in this particular discussion there's no need to talk about gaming addiction as a whole.

yann.1946 · August 24, 2019

@castlemanic.3198 said:
@"yann.1946" said:While I agree to some extent.
I think it is important to realise that some people like the rng for rngs sake. I bought mount licenses specifically because they where rng.

There's plenty of places to have RNG that can't be influenced by the gem store (and yes that does mean removing any RNG items that can be bought with gold because of the gems to gold exchange). By not having it tied to the gem store you protect the people with impulse controls and gambling addiction issues.

I agree that that is the endpoint of this argument. Which is exactly why I am against the total deletion of RNG items in the gem store. It would cause way to much of a shift in fundamental rewardstructure.

And we can't use the "we have to protect those with impulse control and addiction" argument unless you ofcourse think that we should abolish sales in general. And gw2 should be closed.

But we can. We absolutely can. Because the two aren't inherently tied together. You can have sales without having an infinite RNG money sink that scientific studies show act on the same parts of the brain as gambling does. The ENTIRE REST OF THE GEM STORE is everything that can be sold without RNG. GW2 can still make profits off of those things without exploiting players.

Like, this was a pretty far reach in terms of arguments.

My last point was that sales are also a way to cash in on impulsive buyers, artificial scarcity to for example. So if youre reason for removing rng items is protecting impulsive buyers, sales should go to. That is the logical conclusion of that motivation.

Mmo's are notoriously for being addictive. So to protect the people who get easier addicted. Either deletion or restriction of mmo's is nessecary.

castlemanic.3198 · August 24, 2019

@yann.1946 said:I agree that that is the endpoint of this argument. Which is exactly why I am against the total deletion of RNG items in the gem store. It would cause way to much of a shift in fundamental rewardstructure.

And? It would be a good thing if it protects people with impulse control and addiction issues.

My last point was that sales are also a way to cash in on impulsive buyers, artificial scarcity to for example. So if youre reason for removing rng items is protecting impulsive buyers, sales should go to. That is the logical conclusion of that motivation.

No it isn't. The logical conclusion is only the removal of RNG items from the gemstore. That's it. It's fallacious to conflate the issue to then include sales because sales are a one time perchase, wherease RNG items have the capability of doing is affecting those with impulse control to purchase more and more of an endless loop of RNG items in order to maybe possibly get a single item, an item which they may spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars in order to try and achieve that item. Sales are a single purchase of an item you know you'll get. Not the same caliber.

Mmo's are notoriously for being addictive. So to protect the people who get easier addicted. Either deletion or restriction of mmo's is nessecary.

Whataboutism (which is the tactic you're using here) doesn't remove the discussion at hand, it's a tactic used to distract from the discussion at hand. While gaming addiction an MMOs is an issue that needs to be talked about, this isn't the time or place for it because that's not what this discussion is about.

Inculpatus cedo.9234 · August 24, 2019

ArenaNet, I prefer you to keep RNG items in-game/in-store because I prefer the lower costs.

Of course, that's off-topic, as are any gambling addiction issues; the topic of this thread is giving FREE items to those in Belgium, which I support.

Super Hayes.6890 · August 25, 2019

Very well, let's get back on topic and stop responding to all other posts here. Yes to free items for Belgium players. Let them choose an exclusive item. I'm totally okay with that.

yann.1946 · August 25, 2019

@castlemanic.3198 said:
@"yann.1946" said:I agree that that is the endpoint of this argument. Which is exactly why I am against the total deletion of RNG items in the gem store. It would cause way to much of a shift in fundamental rewardstructure.

And? It would be a good thing if it protects people with impulse control and addiction issues.

My last point was that sales are also a way to cash in on impulsive buyers, artificial scarcity to for example. So if youre reason for removing rng items is protecting impulsive buyers, sales should go to. That is the logical conclusion of that motivation.

No it isn't. The logical conclusion is

only the removal of RNG items from the gemstore

. That's it. It's fallacious to conflate the issue to then include sales because sales are a one time perchase, wherease RNG items have the capability of doing is affecting those with impulse control to purchase more and more of an endless loop of RNG items in order to maybe possibly get a single item, an item which they may spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars in order to try and achieve that item. Sales are a single purchase of an item you know you'll get. Not the same caliber.

So the mount licenses don't fall in this category then?

And my point still stands as while I agree that Lootboxes are worse that doesn't change the fact that sales also prey on the impulse buyers.

So that is why the "to protect those with impulsive tendencies" is an incomplete motivation. Because you have been using special pleading to not have to include sales.

Mmo's are notoriously for being addictive. So to protect the people who get easier addicted. Either deletion or restriction of mmo's is nessecary.

Whataboutism (which is the tactic you're using here) doesn't remove the discussion at hand, it's a tactic used to distract from the discussion at hand. While gaming addiction an MMOs is an issue that needs to be talked about, this isn't the time or place for it because

that's not what this discussion is about

.

This is not whataboutism because I was merely pointing out a consequence of your motivation. And asked if you are in favour of both the consequences of your motivation.

My issue is that your reason sounds good but is unrefined and can be used to argue almost every enjoyable activity is bad.So that is why the motivation "protect those with impulsive tendencies" is an incomplete motivation. You should add restrictions in your motivations a priori or decide their is another reason to do so.

castlemanic.3198 · August 25, 2019

@"yann.1946" said:So the mount licenses don't fall in this category then?

They absolutely do, as I mentioned in a previous post. EDIT on this specific part: I mentioned this in a comment on this thread to someone else, so I don't blame you for missing it).

And my point still stands as while I agree that Lootboxes are worse that doesn't change the fact that sales also prey on the impulse buyers.
So that is why the "to protect those with impulsive tendencies" is an incomplete motivation. Because you have been using special pleading to not have to include sales.

It's not special pleading to point out that you can spend a near limitless amount of money on RNG items and still not get the thing you're looking for, which is vastly different from sales. That's kind of an obvious fact.

This is not whataboutism because I was merely pointing out a consequence of your motivation.

It absoutely is whataboutism, because you're distracting from the current thing that needs to be discussed.

My issue is that your reason sounds good but is unrefined and can be used to argue almost every enjoyable activity is bad.

Only if you decide to argue fallaciously about it.

So that is why the motivation "protect those with impulsive tendencies" is an incomplete motivation. You should add restrictions in your motivations a priori or decide their is another reason to do so.

Yeah, the restriction is "remove only RNG items to prevent a near limitless amount of money from being spent on them in order to protect those with impulse control issues and gambling addictions.

That's the motivation that I've mentioned before.

And asked if you are in favour of both the consequences of your motivation.

I'm in favour of dismantling the current capitalistic environment that allows unethical practices like these to emerge, which does include limited-time sales and false limited availability to prey on impulsive spenders as well, because the whole late-stage capitalist environment is destructive to the human race, to all species on the planet and the climate itself while the rich at the top of the money food chain don't actually care about anything that's happening and won't move to do anything to help with basic human needs like food, water, shelter etc. unless they start losing money because of it. Most of the domestic issues that we face and many of the international ones (and that pretty much runs true for every country no matter where you live) come down to money and power, people are exploited for the sake of financial games and that does come down into every industry, games included as we can see with our favourite game here (black lion chests, mount licenses, the knife tail gang thing, i'd even go so far as to include ecto gambling etc.)

Gaming addiction and gambling addictions can and do adversely affect people and can even ruin lives, and there aren't enough systems put in place to protect them or help them with the issues they face, the reasons for which fall under a significantly larger umbrella of the current socio-econimic and political status quo and how the efforts made in preventing abuse don't go far enough because the whole system itself is set up to encourage abuse unless that specific form of abuse is caught. The reason why i didn't want to dive into this is because you really can go to the whole system when talking about issues like this. But dealing with the RNG issues can be dealt with right now and protect at least some people right now. and you're right, in a broader context trying to not deal with sales when talking about RNG issues is incomplete, but if we keep going up that ladder, nothing will get dealt with.

So the quickest thing that can be done right now, to help people right now, is to remove RNG loot. That doesn't mean there isn't other things that need to be done, but this is why whataboutism isn't helpful (and it is the tactic you are using), because we can get distracted by looking at the whole picture and forgetting that the minutiae is important too, and that there are things that can be done immediately to deal with specific issues while we try and fix the system as a whole too.

EDIT: also i think i'm done with this conversation. I don't have the energy to keep up this discussion and I have other things that require my time and energy.

yann.1946 · August 25, 2019

@castlemanic.3198 said:
@"yann.1946" said:So the mount licenses don't fall in this category then?

They absolutely do, as I mentioned in a previous post. EDIT on this specific part: I mentioned this in a comment on this thread to someone else, so I don't blame you for missing it).

I can't seem to find where you mentioned mount linceses.

So why do they fall under the same banner as they have a very finite amount of gambles nessecary to get the mount they want.

And on a side note the only rng thing which does allow for infinite gambles is the blc although statuettes sort of address that.

Now I know that you don't mean infinite, you mean unhealthy. But It might be better to use those terms.

And my point still stands as while I agree that Lootboxes are worse that doesn't change the fact that sales also prey on the impulse buyers.
So that is why the "to protect those with impulsive tendencies" is an incomplete motivation. Because you have been using special pleading to not have to include sales.

It's not special pleading to point out that you can spend a near limitless amount of money on RNG items and still not get the thing you're looking for, which is vastly different from sales. That's kind of an obvious fact.

It is a fact, doesn't change that it's special pleading. Because what I was talking about was merely the fact that from your original motivation( where you didn't specify infinite spending) my example also should be included. But for lots of people they wouldn't say sales are a problem. Which is inconsistent.

This is not whataboutism because I was merely pointing out a consequence of your motivation.

It absoutely is whataboutism, because you're distracting from the current thing that needs to be discussed.

No I wanted to address a faulty premise.Which you have addressed later in this post

My issue is that your reason sounds good but is unrefined and can be used to argue almost every enjoyable activity is bad.

Only if you decide to argue fallaciously about it.

Not really, in general most enjoyable things are addictive in some sense. So form a problem for easily addicted people.

So that is why the motivation "protect those with impulsive tendencies" is an incomplete motivation. You should add restrictions in your motivations a priori or decide their is another reason to do so.

Yeah, the restriction is "remove only RNG items to prevent a near limitless amount of money from being spent on them in order to protect those with impulse control issues and gambling addictions.

That's the motivation that I've mentioned before.

You didn't mention this in your original post. Which is why I decided to respond to it.

And asked if you are in favour of both the consequences of your motivation.

I'm in favour of dismantling the current capitalistic environment that allows unethical practices like these to emerge, which does include limited-time sales and false limited availability to prey on impulsive spenders as well, because the whole late-stage capitalist environment is destructive to the human race, to all species on the planet and the climate itself while the rich at the top of the money food chain don't actually care about anything that's happening and won't move to do anything to help with basic human needs like food, water, shelter etc. unless they start losing money because of it. Most of the domestic issues that we face and many of the international ones (and that pretty much runs true for every country no matter where you live) come down to money and power, people are exploited for the sake of financial games and that does come down into every industry, games included as we can see with our favourite game here (black lion chests, mount licenses, the knife tail gang thing, i'd even go so far as to include ecto gambling etc.)

Gaming addiction and gambling addictions can and do adversely affect people and can even ruin lives, and there aren't enough systems put in place to protect them or help them with the issues they face, the reasons for which fall under a significantly larger umbrella of the current socio-econimic and political status quo and how the efforts made in preventing abuse don't go far enough because the whole system itself is set up to encourage abuse unless that specific form of abuse is caught. The reason why i didn't want to dive into this is because you really can go to the whole system when talking about issues like this. But dealing with the RNG issues can be dealt with right now and protect at least some people right now. and you're right, in a broader context trying to not deal with sales when talking about RNG issues is incomplete, but if we keep going up that ladder, nothing will get dealt with.

So the quickest thing that can be done right now, to help people right now, is to remove RNG loot. That doesn't mean there isn't other things that need to be done, but this is why whataboutism isn't helpful (and it is the tactic you are using), because we can get distracted by looking at the whole picture and forgetting that the minutiae is important too, and that there are things that can be done immediately to deal with specific issues while we try and fix the system as a whole too.

EDIT: also i think i'm done with this conversation. I don't have the energy to keep up this discussion and I have other things that require my time and energy.

Good luck with the rest of the things you want/ need to do. :)

Game of Bones.8975 · August 25, 2019

When I read this exception I was floored as well. There are many states in the US that don't allow gambling, but it's not a federal ban.

Could this mean people will begin to register their accounts in alternate servers just to gain benefits?

This is a short-term problem for a very limited number of people and it probably won't happen again. For those it does affect, they are missing out on part of the game-play everyone else is a part.

Inculpatus cedo.9234 · August 25, 2019

@Game of Bones.8975 said:When I read this exception I was floored as well. There are many states in the US that don't allow gambling, but it's not a federal ban.
Could this mean people will begin to register their accounts in alternate servers just to gain benefits?
This is a short-term problem for a very limited number of people and it probably won't happen again. For those it does affect, they are missing out on part of the game-play everyone else is a part.

There are no 'alternate servers', and only the two regions, NA and EU. And even if region was meant, restrictions aren't based on Regions.So, that's not likely to be an issue.

TheGrimm.5624 · August 26, 2019

@Calistin.6210 said:
@TheGrimm.5624 said:
@kasoki.5180 said:
@"Super Hayes.6890" said:This isn't an Anet problem. This is a Belgium government problem. That is where you need to take this fight OP. Gaming companies cannot be expected to work around all the laws of every people group. It would be impossible to keep up with the constant changes. I hope they change their laws to be more... useful and relevant because you really shouldn't be blocked from this content. Just remember that Belgium is blocking you not Anet.

Actually it is Anet problem. They decided not to comply with Belgian laws and simply decided its easier to remove service from belgian players.

Anet had the option - comply with the law or dont do business in the jurisdiction. They chose the latter since its easier.

If anything rest of us outside of belgium should fight that this becomes legal standard so companies cant just go "lol dont care, we have other markets"

Also, same industries across the world usually have similar regulation or regulation based on same core principles.Arguments about negative effects of legal particularism dont really work any more in 21century.

This is purely a matter of convinence and size of market. If US had the same laws or there were regulations on EU level, gaming companies would comply the very same moment

No this is where it's a poor decision to involve government. Players are already empowered to support this type of business by not buying these items if they don't like the process. Lack of sales will drive changes in how/what can be acquired. We don't need government for this and when you do involve them you run into what the OP is facing. And sorry OP but as stated above you should be writing to your government to get this changed. Again if this was a drug company that is purposely increasing prices on drugs people need to be able to live that's quite different. These are optional cosmetic items that before some players were blocked by laws their government put into place people could acquire from ingame currency. We don't need government for that, sorry.

I am writing my government to say stay out of this, focus on things we need government for like clean air and water topics that affect millions of people. If you are getting to these laws while people are dying because of drug companies they had better start to look for new employment now before the elections.

No, that's an overly simplistic view of things. It's like saying beer, drugs and prostitution should not have any laws to regulate or make it illegal cause people can "police" themselves just fine. History has shown again and again that simply isn't the case.

Please don't try to make it a case of the government trying to be our nannies or taking our freedoms away cause it's not that at all.

You just made my point. I never said anything about not needing regulation on beer, drugs and prostitution, especially since I wouldn't put these in the same category. If anything we need more regulation on drug companies and their practices or alternative government solutions to skyrocketing drug prices that were on the markets for decades before one company bought the rights that another had. Not all things are the same here. Government has a limited amount of time to engage in things. Meaning for each thing that is being done something else is not. So if they are focusing on gaming over other things then to me they are not getting issues addressed that people can not do for themselves that require government. So no I wouldn't want my representatives working on something like this when there are so many other issues not getting done already.

TheGrimm.5624 · August 26, 2019

@Super Hayes.6890 said:Very well, let's get back on topic and stop responding to all other posts here. Yes to free items for Belgium players. Let them choose an exclusive item. I'm totally okay with that.

Yes finding an alternative solution for them would be a good idea in the future for things like this. :)

Calistin.6210 · August 26, 2019

@TheGrimm.5624 said:
@Calistin.6210 said:
@TheGrimm.5624 said:
@kasoki.5180 said:
@"Super Hayes.6890" said:This isn't an Anet problem. This is a Belgium government problem. That is where you need to take this fight OP. Gaming companies cannot be expected to work around all the laws of every people group. It would be impossible to keep up with the constant changes. I hope they change their laws to be more... useful and relevant because you really shouldn't be blocked from this content. Just remember that Belgium is blocking you not Anet.