Yes,this just happened

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:Stealth will always be broken in this game until either its completely removed during combat or reveal duration's are significantly increased and

unbreakable

.ANET needs to understand that stealth equates to

infinite

armour and needs to be treated as such when balancing.Enemies burn just as good when they are seen as when they're not.

That makes absolutely no sense . I f you can't target a person in stealth you can hurt that person in stealth .Ergo that person

cannot

be "burned " as well as person that doesn't have stealth.

You can apply to them before they stealth. Stealing won't save them unless they cleanse.

[KrHome.1920]

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Powercreep at its finest, ladies and gentlemen!This goes in both directions.

There are tons of builds this deadeye can't kill. It's at the extreme end of damage and at the lowest end of sustain. People that tend to state that this is the average form of combat have no clue about the game. The game needs such builds since other extremes like minstrel firebrand exist too.

Basic rules for wvw since 2012:

• 2600 armor (~25% damage reduction) makes a difference
• 19k HP (marauder on 11k HP classes) is the minimum you should aim for outside of gimmick builds like the deadeye in this topic
• take at least one mobility skill and a good amount of defense (endurance sigil, blocks, stunbreaks, protection ... ) with you
• if you have slow reaction times, take an auto invulnerability (defy pain, instant reflexes ... )

If your build features only 2 of the 4 attributes mentioned above, you survive the instant burst of the deadeye and are able to fight back.

If you want to play full berserker dps in the zerg, then that's your choice. You have to rely on instant rezzes of minstrel firebrands then. They do exist for that reason.

[schokelmei.8271]

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:That's the problem with these threads, if ANet is going to balance with glass cannon in mind it going to turn out all the worse.

The issue is that those builds aren't glass cannons by definition, because they have a huge toolkit which makes them not "glass". A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannon, an ele with the same gear might be, but neither mesmer, nor thief or ranger are.

[Sobx.1758]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:That's the problem with these threads, if ANet is going to balance with glass cannon in mind it going to turn out all the worse.

The issue is that those builds aren't glass cannons by definition, because they have a huge toolkit which makes them not "glass". A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannon, an ele with the same gear might be, but neither mesmer, nor thief or ranger are.

Nope, still glass cannons.

[KrHome.1920]

@gebrechen.5643 said:A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannonAnd it is favored 80/20 against a glass deadeye. Just look at the spinal shivers nerf thread. It can tank the opener and then oneshot the deadeye.

[Junkpile.7439]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannonAnd it is favored 80/20 against a glass deadeye. Just look at the spinal shivers nerf thread. It can tank the opener and then oneshot the deadeye.

You won't see deadeye more than microsecond.

[KrHome.1920]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannonAnd it is favored 80/20 against a glass deadeye. Just look at the spinal shivers nerf thread. It can tank the opener and then oneshot the deadeye.

You won't see deadeye more than microsecond.

Then you are doing it wrong. The deadeye can only keep up stealth or follow you when you move away, not both at the same time. Besides that you are free to create denial areas or move to no teleport spots (e.g. the wood piles you can find in every camp).

Side note since I gave a necro example: axe2 doesn't cancel when the target enters stealth (just like every channeled skill in the game). The moment you see a thief entering stealth, just cast it and don't press any movement skill (your character will turn into the direction of the stealthed target automatically). Either he dodges to avoid the damage and cancels the stealth cast or he loses a lot of hp.

[lare.5129]

but why we should care for someone who use toughness like minor stat ?

[DemonSeed.3528]

Fun fact, autotarget/snap to ground can also help if you're a few ms off from targetting them before they stealthed - I've been able to noscope many thieves like this lol provided they are in range but it will also give you a general idea what direction they went. I have keybinds set for autotarget/snaptoground especially for this reason.

[Shroud.2307]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:That's the problem with these threads, if ANet is going to balance with glass cannon in mind it going to turn out all the worse.

The issue is that those builds aren't glass cannons by definition, because they have a huge toolkit which makes them not "glass". A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannon, an ele with the same gear might be, but neither mesmer, nor thief or ranger are.

I think anything that's full offensive still classifies as a "glass cannon", but I agree that some can greatly reduce the risk factor with their defensive options.

One issue I have with things like Thief, Ele and Guard in particular, is that they all have very strong defensive options to support their low base health. But as the game has progressed, things like Marauder have been introduced, and various foods, runes and other stat combinations have also been added. So now not only do they have the option for much higher health, they still retain their potent defenses without greatly reducing their damage.

Fresh Air Ele ( class in general, Tempest/Weaver ) is one of those things that feels like it has been substantially buffed by this. Sure, there are lots of skills with unblockable effects, and damage has increased across the board, but being able to nearly insta-burst 15 - 20k multi-hits while also blocking/destroying projectiles/invulnerable is something that made a lot more sense before many of the aforementioned things ( particularly Marauder ) were added to the game. Having extremely strong defenses was a good mechanic to protect such a low health pool, but now they don't need to have that and can still achieve an absurd burst.

This isn't a rant about getting Ele ( or Thief, Guard, etc. ) nerfed or something, just an observation and annoyance I've had about certain builds.

I try to avoid the "wah, poor Necro!" thing, because I don't personally think the class is as weak as a lot of other people seem to, but in this case... It very much annoys me. A high health pool and "second health bar" has always been one of the reasons Necro has been shackled to not having stronger defense, yet as I've just stated, everything has been given the option to greatly increase their health ( and even armor and/or damage reduction with foods ) to the point of being able to match a Necro's, yet still get to keep their mobility and defenses...

I want to stress that I'm not trying to turn this in to a Necro victim comment, particularly because I've seen a lot of those lately, but on the subject of glass cannons, this is a massive gripe of mine.

[kash.9213]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:That's the problem with these threads, if ANet is going to balance with glass cannon in mind it going to turn out all the worse.

The issue is that those builds aren't glass cannons by definition, because they have a huge toolkit which makes them not "glass". A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannon, an ele with the same gear might be, but neither mesmer, nor thief or ranger are.

I think anything that's full offensive still classifies as a "glass cannon", but I agree that some can greatly reduce the risk factor with their defensive options.

One issue I have with things like Thief, Ele and Guard in particular, is that they all have very strong defensive options to support their low base health. But as the game has progressed, things like Marauder have been introduced, and various foods, runes and other stat combinations have also been added. So now not only do they have the option for much higher health, they still retain their potent defenses without greatly reducing their damage.

Fresh Air Ele ( class in general, Tempest/Weaver ) is one of those things that feels like it has been substantially buffed by this. Sure, there are lots of skills with unblockable effects, and damage has increased across the board, but being able to nearly insta-burst 15 - 20k multi-hits while also blocking/destroying projectiles/invulnerable is something that made a lot more sense before many of the aforementioned things ( particularly Marauder ) were added to the game. Having extremely strong defenses was a good mechanic to protect such a low health pool, but now they don't need to have that and can still achieve an absurd burst.

This isn't a rant about getting Ele ( or Thief, Guard, etc. ) nerfed or something, just an observation and annoyance I've had about certain builds.

I try to avoid the "wah, poor Necro!" thing, because I don't personally think the class is as weak as a lot of other people seem to, but in this case... It very much annoys me. A high health pool and "second health bar" has always been one of the reasons Necro has been shackled to not having stronger defense, yet as I've just stated, everything has been given the option to greatly increase their health ( and even armor and/or damage reduction with foods ) to the point of being able to match a Necro's, yet still get to keep their mobility and defenses...

I want to stress that I'm not trying to turn this in to a Necro victim comment, particularly because I've seen a lot of those lately, but on the subject of glass cannons, this is a massive gripe of mine.

I get what you're saying from your perspective, but that damage threshold is finicky. On thief anyway, you want to damage a lot quickly but if you're not hitting that threshold you're going to be outhealed and out mitigated to a point where you don't matter anymore and the longer you don't kill something the more of your build you reveal. It's not as easy as you make it sound to hit enough damage while also building to at least survive a high burst opener. Going straight Marauder just doesn't do enough anymore, you'll have a mix of gear and you're going to know just about that right amount of health you can get away with but you'll gamble with it because you actually want to kill something once in awhile.

[schokelmei.8271]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I try to avoid the "wah, poor Necro!" thing, because I don't personally think the class is as weak as a lot of other people seem to, but in this case... It very much annoys me. A high health pool and "second health bar" has always been one of the reasons Necro has been shackled to not having stronger defense, yet as I've just stated, everything has been given the option to greatly increase their health ( and even armor and/or damage reduction with foods ) to the point of being able to match a Necro's, yet still get to keep their mobility and defenses...

I want to stress that I'm not trying to turn this in to a Necro victim comment, particularly because I've seen a lot of those lately, but on the subject of glass cannons, this is a massive gripe of mine.

The issue with the whole Necro design and "second Health Bar" is bad. I, and I think most players, would let that count as an argument if the second health bar was a single defensive option, but it never was. It always was your offensive cooldown too. A defensive cooldown that is necessary for playing offensive is a really bad design and it has gotten worse with the expansions and the stats that came with those.In the core game you could gamble with a 17k hp expansion, because you either fought PVT, Berserker or some sort of Carrion gear. Toughness is completely useless these days and most classes are way more tanky on "glass builds" (as you already stated)

And what I really fear is that with the next balance patch "damage is tuned down" reaper will become unplayable again because it only offers high burst while everyone you fight offers a bit less burst but way more other cool stuff to work with.

[Shroud.2307]

@kash.9213 said:I get what you're saying from your perspective, but that damage threshold is finicky. On thief anyway, you want to damage a lot quickly but if you're not hitting that threshold you're going to be outhealed and out mitigated to a point where you don't matter anymore and the longer you don't kill something the more of your build you reveal. It's not as easy as you make it sound to hit enough damage while also building to at least survive a high burst opener. Going straight Marauder just doesn't do enough anymore, you'll have a mix of gear and you're going to know just about that right amount of health you can get away with but you'll gamble with it because you actually want to kill something once in awhile.

I understand and agree. There is definitely a loss in damage when taking Marauder over Berserker and particularly in the case of Thief, doing a lot of damage quickly is important.

In WvW however, Thief is also top of the food chain for it's ability to pick and choose when/where/what to fight. It isn't the strongest 1 v 1 class and there are lots of things that are difficult for it to deal with, but the nature of Thief ( high mobility and multiple ways to bypass or negate defenses ) still makes it an extremely strong solo/small scale class.

In regard to losing damage with Marauder, the loss isn't so significant that it becomes unable to kill or pressure things. In fact, it often allows them to linger for a longer time due to having a higher health pool, where as with full Berserker, it's either hit the burst and win or miss and run.

I do think the loss in damage makes a difference, but I also think the trade for more health ( and critical chance ) is worth it. But then, I'm also not a Thief main and have my own bias. So I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time I still support my own perspective even if that's a little contradictory, if that makes sense? Lol

@"gebrechen.5643" said:The issue with the whole Necro design and "second Health Bar" is bad. I, and I think most players, would let that count as an argument if the second health bar was a single defensive option, but it never was. It always was your offensive cooldown too. A defensive cooldown that is necessary for playing offensive is a really bad design and it has gotten worse with the expansions and the stats that came with those.In the core game you could gamble with a 17k hp expansion, because you either fought PVT, Berserker or some sort of Carrion gear. Toughness is completely useless these days and most classes are way more tanky on "glass builds" (as you already stated)

And what I really fear is that with the next balance patch "damage is tuned down" reaper will become unplayable again because it only offers high burst while everyone you fight offers a bit less burst but way more other cool stuff to work with.

Yes, this is some what of a concern of mine as well. If ANet plans to reduce damage across the board ( which is great, for the most part ) I hope they consider how over time certain things have changed the way some classes fit in to the world. Reaper having it's Life Force depletion increased and being given multiple increases in damage to compensate is one of those things. If they reduce Reaper's damage, I hope they also consider adding other defensive options, buffing existing ones, or reducing the Life Force depletion a bit. Because right now, Reaper's defense is literally it's offense. Nothing can face tank it and that's what makes it work, but it's still easy to punish. If you neuter the damage, well... It doesn't have much does it.

I think it would be perfectly fair to reduce Reaper's damage, and some things, like Reaper's Onslaught, are extremely overstacked. The trait is basically mandatory due to how fast Life Force depletes, how slow Shroud attacks are and how fast every other class can pump out damage, but that shouldn't make it exempt from revision.

There are a number of things with Necro that I'd be okay with having nerfed. It, like every other class, has lots of power creep. But the sweeping and careless balance patches that are typical of ANet concern me for what they might decide to do with seemingly little to no insight on how it will effect the class(es). So right now, my fingers are just crossed that if they chop Reaper damage they also buff it's defense a little. B

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:That's the problem with these threads, if ANet is going to balance with glass cannon in mind it going to turn out all the worse.

The issue is that those builds aren't glass cannons by definition, because they have a huge toolkit which makes them not "glass". A full berserker reaper/core necro is a glass cannon, an ele with the same gear might be, but neither mesmer, nor thief or ranger are.

I think anything that's full offensive still classifies as a "glass cannon", but I agree that some can greatly reduce the risk factor with their defensive options.

One issue I have with things like Thief, Ele and Guard in particular, is that they all have very strong defensive options to support their low base health. But as the game has progressed, things like Marauder have been introduced, and various foods, runes and other stat combinations have also been added. So now not only do they have the option for much higher health, they still retain their potent defenses without greatly reducing their damage.

Fresh Air Ele ( class in general, Tempest/Weaver ) is one of those things that feels like it has been substantially buffed by this. Sure, there are lots of skills with unblockable effects, and damage has increased across the board, but being able to nearly insta-burst 15 - 20k multi-hits while also blocking/destroying projectiles/invulnerable is something that made a lot more sense before many of the aforementioned things ( particularly Marauder ) were added to the game. Having extremely strong defenses was a good mechanic to protect such a low health pool, but now they don't need to have that and can still achieve an absurd burst.

This isn't a rant about getting Ele ( or Thief, Guard, etc. ) nerfed or something, just an observation and annoyance I've had about certain builds.

I try to avoid the "wah, poor Necro!" thing, because I don't personally think the class is as weak as a lot of other people seem to, but in this case... It very much annoys me. A high health pool and "second health bar" has always been one of the reasons Necro has been shackled to not having stronger defense, yet as I've just stated, everything has been given the option to greatly increase their health ( and even armor and/or damage reduction with foods ) to the point of being able to match a Necro's, yet still get to keep their mobility and defenses...

I want to stress that I'm not trying to turn this in to a Necro victim comment, particularly because I've seen a lot of those lately, but on the subject of glass cannons, this is a massive gripe of mine.

Maybe it’s time for the 4 stat armors to have negative stats on them? That would be some balance. Want Marauders gear? Take a toughness hit. Want Soldiers gear? Take a ferocity hit. Or something to that effect.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Maybe it’s time for the 4 stat armors to have negative stats on them? That would be some balance. Want Marauders gear? Take a toughness hit. Want Soldiers gear? Take a ferocity hit. Or something to that effect.

I think we already have built in negative stats. Wear zerk and you are going to get dropped by another glass cannon. Wear soldiers and you are not going to do as much damage. Glass will be dropped fast by glass. That's the risk/reward.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Maybe it’s time for the 4 stat armors to have negative stats on them? That would be some balance. Want Marauders gear? Take a toughness hit. Want Soldiers gear? Take a ferocity hit. Or something to that effect.

I think we already have built in negative stats. Wear zerk and you are going to get dropped by another glass cannon. Wear soldiers and you are not going to do as much damage. Glass will be dropped fast by glass. That's the risk/reward.

Notice how I said 4 stat armors... Granted I did call out Soldiers, but Wanderer's would be more appropriate.