Kralk's Defeat And The Charr/Human Treaty

[derd.6413]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:There is no inkling of a connection between Kralkatorrik and the Searing, and a Searing-esque solution to Kralkatorrik coming out of left field with no prior set-up would just be bizarre.

if it were to happen it's not gonna be next episode. besides i mainly brought it up since it goes well with OPs suggestion, not because it's a very good theory.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:There is no inkling of a connection between Kralkatorrik and the Searing, and a Searing-esque solution to Kralkatorrik coming out of left field with no prior set-up would just be bizarre.

Eh, I wouldn't say no inkling. There is definitely indicated suggestion:

When the Charr next struck against Ascalon, it was with all the fury of destiny denied. With a magic item known as the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Shamans called forth the magic of the Titans and performed the Ritual of the Searing. It is said the Cauldron's magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

And in the Orr PS, it's stated that the Flame Shamans enchanted the cauldrons from an external source of power, and Kralkatorrik was sleeping in the middle of their frontier lands at the time of the enchantment taking place. The Searing Effigy in CoF explorable has the same purple fire appearance that branded utilize as well.

Furthermore, there are two small implications with Season 4: the Kralkatorrite meteors in Istan appear in a similar manner as the Searing crystals, though far more spread out, and though this is likely just re-using art assets, the Heart of the Forge in Thunderhead Peaks has a crystal which uses the same model as Searing Crystals.

It's far from proven, but its clear that ArenaNet wanted players to think there was a connection since they added that line with the very first lore of GW2, since Day 1 of learning about Elder Dragons, and the similarities have steadily piled up over time.

As for it coming out of left-field, honestly, most of LW stuff comes out of left-field. Like the Inquest having a lab in Fahranur and suddenly has multiple gates that don't require a gate at the destination, or us being able to forge new Dragonsblood weapons.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:Between the dragons still being a world ending threat, the Foefire curse remaining and the Flame Legion still being a thing (less so these days but they remain) I don't think it's in the cards for Bangar to act out on his racial hatred.

He's smart enough to keep it in check.

I mean, once Kralk is taken care of, the only Elder Dragon that's a world ending threat would be the deep sea dragon who's MIA in terms of Central Tyria activity to such a point no one but the ellusive largos can really communicate how dangerous that it is. And Flame Legion have been hit such a heavy blow that they've not been heard of since Scarlet. Sure we haven't had too many opportunities to return, but during The World Summit, Smodur's primary issue is the ghosts (even after Rytlock's ritual), while the branded aren't ever mentioned and the Flame Legion are mentioned as an afterthought to said ghosts.

I don't know about 'afterthought'. The World Summit is the last place I remember hearing about the Flame Legion, too, but what Smodur says there- that they still have a functional army to their name and that the threat is very real- doesn't sound like a faction that's quietly expired during its time outside the limelight.

[Shin Ryu.5802]

The Charr opening new and unnecessary war fronts seems unlikely. They've become more strategic and goal oriented, and more aware that force of arms isn't the only way to achieve their goals. Evon Gnashblade is a good example of how Charr have learned to exploit mutual interests and (largely) non-martial means in order to gain more than they ever could through raids and conquest alone.

Whether the Flame Legion would ever join forces against Kralk the way the Nightmare Court did against Mordy (Faolin's treachery notwithstanding) is a different story. The Flame Legion has a history of siding with and worshipping entities who grant them power, so they'd be more readily tempted to join Kralk than most. Kralk might even possess the means to convert them into his own version of Glint's Exalted...

Taking the campaign against Kralk in a Charr-centric storytelling direction is a pretty brilliant idea though. Not only does it dovetail nicely with the existing lore, it provides an opportunity for the Charr to get some time in the spotlight previously dominated by humans and Sylvari.

[Telwyn.1630]

@Teratus.2859 said:It's possible but I wouldn't rule out that a lot has changed in the years since the treaty was signed.Relations between Charr and Human have grown a lot in the passing years and many Charr do not consider Humans as a race to be enemies anymore.. same for Humans who do not feel the Charr are enemies either.

If the High Legions did change their stance and started pushing an anti human rhetoric again I expect a lot of Charr would stand against it and if need be fight against it literally.. specially Charr like Rytlock and the other countless Charr soldiers who have stood shoulder to shoulder with Humans and developed battlebonds with them etc.Not to mention all the Charr members of the Vigil, Priory, Order of Whispers, Pact and the Lionguard.. Charr are everywhere these days.We know from Rytlocks Requiem that he regards our PC and all the members of Destiny's Edge and Dragons Watch as his Warband too regardless of their race and I expect a lot of other Charr feel the same way about their non Charr allies as well.

This would certainly be an interesting storyline to explore i'll give you that ^^But I think it's fair to say that if the High Legions did go down that road it would probably end up in a huge Civil War all over again with the Legions being the new Anti Human Renagades and the rest of the Charr fighting for unity like the Legions used to.I think too much has changed in the world for this scenario to come around now though.. at least in Gw2.

And my male Human character Tarwin hero of Ascalon helped the charr legions (npc's) with many of the missions and problems they were facing many charr well not want to fight Tarwin either for all he has done for them and Tarwin dose not want to fight the charr legions either including female charr as he thinks female charr are cute. And Tarwin would think all he did to help the charr Legions (not including the Olmakan charr.) would have been a waste if they were going to go back fighting humans and would try and get as many allied charr to side with him over the legions.

[Telwyn.1630]

With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?This could happen because Fume brighteye's (who hates humans just cause her sire Hothor Brightblood was killed, which could be the reason she hates humans.) somehow replaces Smodur the Unflinching maybe he is killed or he unable to lead, cause he has been poison or something has caused him to be unable to be Iron Legions leader, and breaks the treaty and with Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer who also hates humans (which includes my Ascalonain male human character Tarwin even if he help the charr countless times in missions in the game and dose not have any reason to hate the charr.) purposely breaks the treaty with both Fume, and Banga declaring all the charr who helped the humans, and fought with them, as traitors including the charr pact commanders, this would shatter warbands as many charr warbands, have warband mates in the Pact and in Lions Arch city, and any other group that has humans in it.

Many charr including Rytock the charr pact commanders, and otehr charr heroes, and so many charr all over Tyria who just found out they been kicked out of the legions cause they work with humans would feel betrayed, and may fight with my character Tarwin just to stop the Hostile charr from trying to start another war with the humans again.

The war would see so many charr in the pact, including Ash Legion, and their leader Malice Swordshadow, the Iron, Blood legion charr who do not want to fight the humans of Ascalon, or believe this is outrageous that Fume and Bangar, and other charr who side with the two Imperator are foolishly starting a war with humans just cause they hate them so much.This war would see my character Tarwin trying to win as many charr to his side as possible, and save Ebonhawk, defeat the hostile charr that started the war and remove both Fume Brighteye's , and Bangar Ruinbringer from power, the war would see the charr legions as a whole crippled as many charr refuse to support Fume Brighteye's, and Bangar Ruinbringer and many more fight for them, so many people on both sides Fume Brighteye's, and Bangar Ruinbringer side and on Tarwin the pact commanders side would die.

And then their be bitter male and female charr on both sides that lost something warband their life wanting to know what they are really been fighting for, some charr may have even lost the will to fight cause they cannot bare to kill another one of their own kin. My human character Tarwin confronting Fume would probably get some self justification how Tarwin's race humans are are at fault for killing her sire Hothor Brightblood, Tarwin responding her justification of the war is wrong (Fume Brighteyes could maybe be Mentally insane and not really in charge and the real one in charge of the war could Be Bangar who could be using Fume to further his possible plan to become Khan-ur so maybe Fume is just being used.) Fume, either will die fighting Tarwin, and his allies, or Tarwin after beating her in combat is able talk her down, that both of them do not have to be enemies and he willing to speak on her behave so she can be spared, (because Tarwin believes in mercy) and is able to get Fume Brighteyes to surrender. Bangar would certainly die fighting as he will never give up to a human.

The after math of the war would see the legions in bad shape crippled from fight Tarwin and his allies and from within, the legions could be at risk of collepe at this point someone among the charr must become Khan-ur to unit the charr and keep the legions from falling who would it be I have no idea.This is all something that could happen either in the after math of guild wars 2 or during the game itself in the next season, will happen it could , as what I wrote above could happen.

[Telwyn.1630]

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[White Kitsunee.4620]

Well when do eventually go there I really hope anet will be smart enough to just go down the arg, Blood legion evil! Path.We've already been down that road a couple of times so I hope they do that properly.

[Kalavier.1097]

Why would the charr break the peace treaty with the humans? That would make the race idiotic and backstabbers, and ruin their relations with other races and weaken their own powers. There is mention in black citadel that (at that point of time) they had trouble maintaining supply lines across all of ascalon. They can't invade across the shiverpeaks.

It's also an often overlooked detail that when Zhaitan rose, the Iron legion made a first offer of peace to humanity (Which was stolen by pirates and the new prince waged bloody war infront of Ebonhawke).

The Charr are not Warcraft Orcs. They have, and use, their brains. They don't start wars for "Lul CONQUEST" reasons.

[adormtil.1605]

But there civilization is around their military what would the point of an military be if there is not an war. Why would you need hundreds of millions of soldiers if you do not war. And think from the perspective of an charr soldier trained all his life to fight and never gets to fight. Well usually what happens with soldiers that only know how to fight and never get to fight? What do they do in peace times? From what I know not good things.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"adormtil.1605" said:But there civilization is around their military what would the point of an military be if there is not an war. Why would you need hundreds of millions of soldiers if you do not war. And think from the perspective of an charr soldier trained all his life to fight and never gets to fight. Well usually what happens with soldiers that only know how to fight and never get to fight? What do they do in peace times? From what I know not good things.

The civilization is military based but that doesn't mean they are constantly wanting a war.

Iron Legion has leagues of farms and craftsmen who are not front-line soldiers. Iron Legion sent a peace offering to humanity long before Kralkatorrik woke up.

But most importantly, Charr aren't raging berserker idiots who can't understand the idea of peace. They are smart enough to know they cannot use the Asura gates to invade, and a land-based one would allow other nations time to prepare defenses. They spent some what, 200 years failing to breach and take Ebonhawke. Imagine doing that to a city on the other side of the shiverpeaks while trying to protect and maintain your supply lines. While Lion's Arch has a fleet of airships, as does the orders (which are almost entirely based in and on the border of Kryta).

Imagine being the race who comes out of this united, combined effort to make the elder dragons stop being a risk to all life, and turning around and attacking the others for no reason at all. The Charr legions were present at Thunderhead Keep, as was every other functional army force. They would know to attack would make them the bad guys. And they would know they cannot defeat the rest of the world standing alone.

Unlike the orcs of WoW, the Charr are written as actually having a culture and civilization. They are more then just soldiers. I'd be incredibly disappointed in Anet if they suddenly went "Oh yeah, the charr decide that with the elder dragons mostly dealt with, they want to invade and ravage across Kryta and the shiverpeaks!" because that'd turn the Charr from being the Charr high legions, to be the idiotic and blundering orc horde from warcraft.

Not to mention, we have a blood legion warband helping the Seraph at Lake Doric fight the White Mantle (when the white mantle attacked).

"The White Mantle can't be allowed to ruin everything our races have built together. This is our fight too. " https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nylia_Steelpaw Big thing about this warband? It wasn't ordered by the tribunes. The leader of the warband VOLUNTEERED to go to Lake Doric and help.

The blood legion, the most violent of the four and generally stereotyped as brute force front-line warriors, volunteered to go help defend the capital of Kryta against the White Mantle to preserve everything that Charr and Humanity had built together so far.

[draxynnic.3719]

Having thought on the matter, I don't see the Iron Legion breaking the treaty either.

Even if Smodur was to no longer be the Imperator, the Iron Legion have the most to lose from a resumption of hostilities.

First, it's likely that it's going to be their territory that the war is fought on. While they've made territorial concessions to Ebonhawke, there's not a whole lot to gain, and if they end up losing badly (if, say, the other races decide that the Iron Legion has proven too much of a loose cannon to trust) they could end up pushed back to the Wall or beyond.

Second, they've got a lot to gain from peace. The Iron Legion is making a transition from a militarised society to an industrialised (albeit still militaristic) one. They can probably get more through trading the products of their industry than they can through conquest.

Third, they're now the legion which has probably now had the most exposure to humans in a non-hostile or even cooperative fashion. It's harder to build motivation to fight somebody with whom you've fought together against a common enemy.

Any problem at the legion level (apart from the Flame) is probably likely to come from Bangar. He's been noted to be a loose cannon that doesn't like the treaty before, and out of the three playable legions, Blood is probably the one with the most potential to be "left behind" by piece. Iron has their industrial capacity, Ash can apply their skills at espionage to mercantalism (the Black Lion is an Ash Legion operation if you go back far enough, although it is questionable just how loyal Evon actually is to Malice if it comes down to it) but Blood... they're basically front-line soldiers, on the whole. So I could see the potential for them to have the least transferable skills to a more peaceful age and start to feel left behind as a result, potentially leading to a push to return to the "good old days".

Which could lead to wanting to restart the war (safely away from their own borders, naturally)... or to becoming Tyria's premier mercenaries. Not every Blood Legion member is going to want to restart the war, naturally, but there might be enough.

This would also have the advantage of making the resulting conflict something that mostly happens on new maps rather than having to rework the existing Ascalon region maps.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Having thought on the matter, I don't see the Iron Legion breaking the treaty either.

Even if Smodur was to no longer be the Imperator, the Iron Legion have the most to lose from a resumption of hostilities.

First, it's likely that it's going to be their territory that the war is fought on. While they've made territorial concessions to Ebonhawke, there's not a whole lot to gain, and if they end up losing badly (if, say, the other races decide that the Iron Legion has proven too much of a loose cannon to trust) they could end up pushed back to the Wall or beyond.

Second, they've got a lot to gain from peace. The Iron Legion is making a transition from a militarised society to an industrialised (albeit still militaristic) one. They can probably get more through trading the products of their industry than they can through conquest.

Third, they're now the legion which has probably now had the most exposure to humans in a non-hostile or even cooperative fashion. It's harder to build motivation to fight somebody with whom you've fought together against a common enemy.

Any problem at the legion level (apart from the Flame) is probably likely to come from Bangar. He's been noted to be a loose cannon that doesn't like the treaty before, and out of the three playable legions, Blood is probably the one with the most potential to be "left behind" by piece. Iron has their industrial capacity, Ash can apply their skills at espionage to mercantalism (the Black Lion is an Ash Legion operation if you go back far enough, although it is questionable just how loyal Evon actually is to Malice if it comes down to it) but Blood... they're basically front-line soldiers, on the whole. So I could see the potential for them to have the least transferable skills to a more peaceful age and start to feel left behind as a result, potentially leading to a push to return to the "good old days".

Which could lead to wanting to restart the war (safely away from their own borders, naturally)... or to becoming Tyria's premier mercenaries. Not every Blood Legion member is going to want to restart the war, naturally, but there might be enough.

This would also have the advantage of making the resulting conflict something that mostly happens on new maps rather than having to rework the existing Ascalon region maps.

Yeah, I commented once that if Ash or Blood wanted to start the war again, if they attacked Ebonhawke or fields of ruin (the treaty gave humanity the entire fields of ruin area), they'd have to march through Iron legion land (aka, Ascalon) which could spark a war between the legions. If they tried to travel through Ascalon or use Ascalon supply lines/assets, they could get in trouble as well. Ascalon is Iron Legion land, and what the Iron Legion imperator says, goes.

[adormtil.1605]

Well you forget the bond they have. Iron legion had to survive in the land of fire,blood and ash legion for about 1000 years. And they survived because the other legions let them survive. I doubt they will oppose and fight the other legions for the humans.

[deatine.2498]

Renewing the war would be unwise. There is no reason to and nothing more to be gained. Charr roaming Ebonhawke freely is a reminder that peace brought us what couldn't be accomplished in 200 years of war.

However, particularly in the Fields of Ruin, we deal with Charr renegades (not talking about the profession) every day and their number does not seem to be dwindling. Warmongers would have an easy time rallying them for their cause, any cause.

[Kalavier.1097]

@deatine.2498 said:Renewing the war would be unwise. There is no reason to and nothing more to be gained. Charr roaming Ebonhawke freely is a reminder that peace brought us what couldn't be accomplished in 200 years of war.

However, particularly in the Fields of Ruin, we deal with Charr renegades (not talking about the profession) every day and their number does not seem to be dwindling. Warmongers would have an easy time rallying them for their cause, any cause.

Well, story-wise the vigil outright carves through a good number of them and also kills their leader, and it's never really stated if they got another one.

But the thing is the renegades are doing something that the Charr hate, they've become traitors. They are refusing and defying the orders of their commanders and officers.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Kalavier.1097" said:Why would the charr break the peace treaty with the humans? That would make the race idiotic and backstabbers, and ruin their relations with other races and weaken their own powers.

For the same reason why the Separatists and Caudecus tried to break the human-charr treaty. For the same reason the Renegades already try to do so.

The charr is not a united hive mind. They're full of individuals with different opinions. And some leaders - namely Bangar Ruinbringer, Imperator of Blood Legion, and Fume Brighteye, Tribune of the Iron Legion - do not like humanity and would see the peace treaty sabotaged.

Well, story-wise the vigil outright carves through a good number of them and also kills their leader, and it's never really stated if they got another one.

Ajax is just a cell leader, not a universal leader over the Renegades. And it's stated during Xeniph's quest that the Renegades are still a highly active threat. Which implies they did get a new leader, or that even if they didn't, they're still a large enough threat that they couldn't be quelled by the combined forces of the Enon Vanguard and Iron Legion, despite the peace treaty having been apparently signed by this point.

But the thing is the renegades are doing something that the Charr hate, they've become traitors. They are refusing and defying the orders of their commanders and officers.

And what if those officers and commanders decide they no longer need that treaty that had the sole purpose of reducing their enemies' numbers by one army now that the enemies' armies have dwindled down considerably? A military needs a threat to focus on, and there's a lot of officers and soldiers who state they only follow the peace treaty because they're commanded to, while those in the high ups that don't like the treaty do so only to avoid being drastically outnumbered.

If you take away reasons why the racists among the charr follow the treaty, will they still follow the treaty?

Probably not.

[Euthymias.7984]

It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts. There are humans who arnet fond of it, but Charr presence and tech have helped them in their own united struggles on the warfronts they've taken to as well. Right now it feels like Canthans coming out of isolation and invading Kryta for conquest would be more likely than another Human vs Charr war.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Euthymias.7984" said:It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts.

Recent conflicts which have come to an end now. The High Legions are first and foremost a military operation, Blood chief among such. The charr are warriors, through and through, born and raised for constant conflict. With victory over most of them, charr will seek out a new conflict, and if one doesn't come to them, they will no doubt make one. That is your "something that incites desire to break it in a poignant way".

The charr, above all else, is a race of war. They will never thrive in peaceful times. It would make no sense, not as they are now, with warbands and fahrars and a military hierarchy from top to bottom. And if there is no war for them to fight in, they will make a war. And humans are the most ideal targets for such a thing, with all other threats gone or reduced to a paltry annoyance.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@Euthymias.7984 said:It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts. There are humans who arnet fond of it, but Charr presence and tech have helped them in their own united struggles on the warfronts they've taken to as well. Right now it feels like Canthans coming out of isolation and invading Kryta for conquest would be more likely than another Human vs Charr war.

I doubt Cantha would be involved in such a scenario especially given that they are still established as being closed border.

That said, it will most likely be humans who will continue to incite conflict between humans and charr. The Human/Charr treaty right now is basically a thin string that could easily snap if someone is dedicated enough to do it and given how humans usually do that, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The Treaty right now is the same as the Tengu Accords back in GW1, and given that Bangar agreed to sign the treaty despite his hatred for human, I see the charr being more reasonable than humans at this stage. It only took Minister Wona attempting to assassinate the Tengu clan leaders to have the Tengu Accords collapse.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

While there's definitely been some cultural exchange between humans and charr, I don't think we can overstate it. We've really only seen a handful of warbands fighting alongside humans outside the Pact structure, and even in that small sample, there's been some grumbling. The bulk of the charr, assigned to their own territory, where the only humans they see on a regular basis (if any) are Separatist terrorists? There's not going to be many strong objections to renewing the conflict there.

I agree that I don't see Smodur going that route, and that he's well enough positioned that Bangar has nothing to gain as long as Iron stands in the way... but regime change in either Iron, Kryta, or Ebonhawke could conceivably change that picture very quickly.

[Euthymias.7984]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Recent conflicts which have come to an end now. The High Legions are first and foremost a military operation, Blood chief among such. The charr are warriors, through and through, born and raised for constant conflict. With victory over most of them, charr will seek out a new conflict, and if one doesn't come to them, they will no doubt make one. That is your "something that incites desire to break it in a poignant way".

Yes, the major aspects of those conflicts have come to a close, but there's still cleanup of what remains. The fact that there are still well sized separatist forces (both Human and Charr) could be addressed by their renewed focus on such things now that there are soldiers and resources to allocate to answering them thoroughly. The Sentinels could use bolstering in cleaning up the Brand now that Kralk and the Shatterers are gone. If there's any Flame Legion forces/factions still out there, they can be looked at and smothered. The Foefire Cleansing, while significantly reducing the number of ghosts around for a time, hasnt completely been taken care of, so there is still the battles on that front until a means to cleanse it completely is employed.

The charr, above all else, is a race of war. They will never thrive in peaceful times. It would make no sense, not as they are now, with warbands and fahrars and a military hierarchy from top to bottom. And if there is no war for them to fight in, they will make a war. And humans are the most ideal targets for such a thing, with all other threats gone or reduced to a paltry annoyance.

I do not disagree that Charr are war driven, but they've shown the capacity to focus on more than just war if it suits them towards a particular goal or objective - their motto of "Victory at any cost" is a testament to that (as Kalavier brought up). I do doubt, however, that there is any motivation to go after the humans at this time while even the paltry problems still persist. Their kind seem more likely to focus on completely crushing their opposition first before moving onto the next thing unless its a truly major priority, and without a really big reason for a push beyond a modest amount of distaste towards Humans among their numbers (which is mutually shared by some humans, naturally), it doesnt seem likely to me in the immediate future without provocation.

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I doubt Cantha would be involved in such a scenario especially given that they are still established as being closed border.

Its just a metaphor of how unlikely I think it is ;)

That said, it will most likely be humans who will continue to incite conflict between humans and charr. The Human/Charr treaty right now is basically a thin string that could easily snap if someone is dedicated enough to do it and given how humans usually do that, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The Treaty right now is the same as the Tengu Accords back in GW1, and given that Bangar agreed to sign the treaty despite his hatred for human, I see the charr being more reasonable than humans at this stage. It only took Minister Wona attempting to assassinate the Tengu clan leaders to have the Tengu Accords collapse.

We did have a case of Charr renegades trying to ruin the Treaty by assassinating and framing the representatives in the Vigil story steps. but that was averted without causing a fallout. I wouldnt be surprised if something similar happens again and possibly succeeds, among other actions to sow distrust to add more sparks to any friction between the two races.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I agree that I don't see Smodur going that route, and that he's well enough positioned that Bangar has nothing to gain as long as Iron stands in the way... but regime change in either Iron, Kryta, or Ebonhawke could conceivably change that picture very quickly.

I think that's what's going to have to happen. Right now, the leadership of both Charr and Humanity more or less want to keep the peace between the two, even if the idea isnt too well liked in some circles. If something happened to overturn the leadership and causes enough of an escalation in friction (say, Bangar becoming Khan-Ur when its found that Smoldur was assassinated during peace talks with human representatives or something), then I could see a war breaking out.

[Westenev.5289]

The Pact has, in the past, been used for more than Dragon research and have rallied to fight threats like the Flame Legion. If Blood or humans decided to go rogue, I don't think the Pact would remain neutral (especially since both instances would be hazardous for Logan's beloved Queen).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Westenev.5289 said:The Pact has, in the past, been used for more than Dragon research and have rallied to fight threats like the Flame Legion. If Blood or humans decided to go rogue, I don't think the Pact would remain neutral (especially since both instances would be hazardous for Logan's beloved Queen).

I wouldn't be so sure. The reason why the Pact interfered with the Flame Legion was in order to garner resources and materials. On top of hoping to obtain Flame Legion magic to use against Zhaitan (per Rytlock's letter to the PC), they also made an agreement to get Iron Legion tanks (used in the Vigil's Further Into Orr plan). The Pact is now more self-supporting than before, and won't need to rely on stealing enemy tech/magic or on any particular nation for more than troops.

They were completely neutral and non-interfering with every Scarlet Briar situation, the karkas, and the White Mantle. Though there's a chance Logan would ignore this old neutrality if Jennah is threatened, since he's not exactly taking that desk job that the Order leaders wanted the new Pact Marshal to take.

[Westenev.5289]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:They were completely neutral and non-interfering with every Scarlet Briar situation, the karkas, and the White Mantle. Though there's a chance Logan would ignore this old neutrality if Jennah is threatened, since he's not exactly taking that desk job that the Order leaders wanted the new Pact Marshal to take.

I wouldn't know about Karka or Scarlet Briar. I wasn't around for LS1. My opinion is that if Anet can't be bothered to abridge what happened, it never happened. B)

The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

Before this, I think everyone was content letting the White Mantle scheme in secret. Everyone had bigger fish to fry durring HoT and Ls3.

I think the Pact (in particular, the Order of whispers) would have a vested interest in maintaining peace between the Black Citidel and Kryta. Remember that the Pact is made of former lionguard, seraph and legionaries - many of which have family, friends and mates at home. The Pact simply couldn't survive if it adopted a hands off policy towards such a drastic situation as a war of extermination between two of its major factions. Remember that the Pact isn't only a militaristic faction - it's also very political.