With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Because no other classes have been in the state that engineer is in.Even when it actually had staying power, people cried and we have what turrets are now. (For what, 2...3 years now?)Kits? Without traits these are absolute garbage. And even then its not the damage kits that are good, but the support ones that require the opponent to literally load a engineer with conditions to even hold value. Alone its crap, vs a team with no condition boomers, what is the elixir gun?

Pistol/Shield are not what makes holo powerful, its its photo forge that makes it meta. Rifle is semi decent because with power it becomes a usable item, without going full power its a wet noodle. The core engineer weapons are not in a good state.

If any class is being shown any sort of favoritsm, trust me, its not engineer.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

To be fair, most people decry when ANet balances nerfs a core spec instead of the thing that's actually busted. Like the abrasive grit/rune of sanctuary debacle.

@Solori.6025 said:

Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

Because we have so many other options for weapons...

Wait.

(Yes, this is tongue-in-cheek. Rifle, pistol, and shield are literally the only 3 weapons core engi has. So of course they're going to meta, they have no other options! Sword is in holo builds too, adding up to a grand total of 4 weapons, wooooo. Seriously though, compare engi mainhand weapons to other classes mainhand weapons, and it's pretty clear engineer's mainhand weapons are objectively worse, way more clunky in design and lower damage)

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

[praqtos.9035]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Because no other classes have been in the state that engineer is in.What state? During core engi was unviable? Not true. During HoT scrapper was trash? Not true. Holo... ? Scrapper now? What state?Rifle is semi decent because with power it becomes a usable item, without going full power its a wet noodle. The core engineer weapons are not in a good state.RIFLE ISNT GOOD? What the heck is this "full power", is he alright there?If any class is being shown any sort of favoritsm, trust me, its not engineer.Holo needs nerfs - engi/holo getting buffed. Not favoritism ... or thats certain holo streamer cry that hard so its gets buffed ?

[Solori.6025]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

To be fair, most people decry when ANet balances nerfs a core spec instead of the thing that's actually busted. Like the abrasive grit/rune of sanctuary debacle.

And some people celebrate them and ask for more. Anet usually listens to the latter.

@Solori.6025 said:

Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

Because we have so many other options for weapons...

Wait.

Then I guess engi just equipped the weapons and never uses the weapon skills.Since they blow so hard right.

Right?

Yes your options are limitedLike the rev..

And the Ele..

Both of which are still nerfed (and buffed. So there's your silver lining) Again ,poor argument as to why engi should be immune to being balanced like everyone else.

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Because no other classes have been in the state that engineer is in.What state? During core engi was unviable? Not true. During HoT scrapper was trash? Not true. Holo... ? Scrapper now? What state?Stay with me here. We are focusing in on the core engineer. Currently Scrapper and Holo do perform well. But that is due to a scrapper buff and a Holo being apart of a powercrept addition (as with all PoF specs) to the game.Rifle is semi decent because with power it becomes a usable item, without going full power its a wet noodle. The core engineer weapons are not in a good state.RIFLE ISNT GOOD? What the heck is this "full power", is he alright there??If any class is being shown any sort of favoritsm, trust me, its not engineer.Holo needs nerfs - engi/holo getting buffed. Not favoritism ... or thats certain holo streamer cry that hard so its gets buffed ?No one is saying to not nerf holosmith. Every elite spec needs a nerf (Firebrand and weaver not so much).

[rng.1024]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@rng.1024 said:It creates no combo field and can simply be bodyblocked, no need for any projectile denial whatsoever. But I still don't get why it's so wong he gets a few seconds stealth every now and then, either it's offensive and he will reveal himself or it's defensive allowing a quick escape. Since when was this overpowered? It's literally been like that forever.well to be fair the stealth from toss elixir S is a wee bit much considering its aoe 6 sec (toolbelt skills are supposed to be weaker than utility yet i dont know any stealth utility on par with this except for mesmer elite or scrapper elite) no idea what u mean by bodyblock. ur teammate supposed to block the elixir? cuz enemies dont do that (just tested to be sure)the duration should be cut to 3 sec / 4 sec traitedSame goes for their heal, so they can blast it a little more and all of a sudden it's op?well the thing with healing is that u apply counterpressure while healing, also good luck interrupting holo in photon forge when he wanna heal, most likely stab is up from either holo 3 or elixir U. then again most heals ingame can be interrupted so this is not only a holo problem. or kite away(use that 6 sec stealth of ours) to heal up not to mention the heat therapy/vigor synergy/vent exhaustAs far as I can tell your issue is with holosmith sustain as a bruiser compared to the damage they can put out utilizing might. Which they sacrifice an amulet for. A rune aswell. And 2 traitlines. Again I totally get your frustration if you are trying to 1v1 it, but it's just the name of the game and holosmith is not alone in it's sidenoding capacity, meaning you need a +1 to take it down most of the time.what amulet/rune are we sacrificing exactly? demolsiher is pretty much as meta as it gets and boon duration runes are just playing to holo's strenghts since we rely on boons big time and kitten them out like we got diarhea besides we dont rly need dmg oriented runes to deal good dmg. heck what traitlines are we sacrificing? alchemy for boons/sustain, tools for utility/10% dmg buff and perma vigor/holo for dmg and heals + utility in form of cleanse and stab. i see no sacrifice other than we are building little for dmg yet have a kitten of it. even utilities are all active defenses / elixir u quickness for offense. i agree the might stacking need to be cut down, mainly minor elixir B is a bit much with HGH. purity of purpose is normally used for prot holo's and ironblodded havent been used since we ran exceed/sd holoIt's not like you don't have options, you can play a bruiser yourself, convert that might, range it, rotate away or kite.ye we can play either spb/soulbeast/necro to counter holo. gl on all the other classes thoLet's say we increased heal turret's cd to 30 seconds and the elixir to 60 seconds. Would that fix all your issues? No, they would still be able to use those at their leisure and someone good at kiting would do just as well with the increase. A better solution would be to hit the might generation via traits first, and then take a look at protection uptime, because it would reward good skill rotations instead of outright push holosmith out of meta.remove regen from healing turret, cut the 10 stacks heat therapy and make 5 baseline/cut down on the vigor/increase holo 2 cd and remove holo 5 100% crit and reduce range. ofc in conjuction with other overperforming specs so we're bringing the powercreep down a notch. no need to scepter 3 nerf it

It's 6 sec traited, HGH needs to do something and that extra second is already not making much of a difference. The toss isn't unblockable, so if you stand on the holo with aegis or anything that blocks, you will effectively deny stealth. The duration is worth a stealth field and 2 blasts - and I don't see how you think it's that big of a problem. Let's say it gets cut to 4 seconds base. How would this be acceptable but 5 isn't?

If you avoid the 3 he has no choice than to pop his elixir to get the heal off - this is the essence of forcing cooldowns. Let him waste his stab while regenerating leaving him wide open for your burst after it ends with no stab and no heal.

Take away the might and test for yourself the "top" damage of a 2086 power holo. They put on sustainy amulets and runes and you expect the same result on glassy ones? Not how the game works. I agree with your changes though, good stuff!

You basically list all duelists. Which are supposed to match holo. On other classes +1 or bunker another node, it's basic conquest logic. Why on earth should others be able to match holo unless you want games with all duelists?

5-6 seconds has always been outrageously out of line for a toolbelt skill or even a full on utility skill. It's indefensible and always has been.

It should be 2 seconds, 3 second traited. Max. It would still be amazing and give you more than enough time to disengage, or heal, or prevent a stomp and rez. It just won't be go into stealth and disengage, then heal to full with your heal skill and 2 leaps and a blast, then use Elixir X and go into Rampage, re-engage into melee, then Throw Boulder point blank while Stealthed levels of good.

That's a fair enough argument, although I just don't see it being an issue atm. Not like it would nerf the elixir into the ground though, so if it would help some deal with holosmiths then yeah why not.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is help out there on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

[Solori.6025]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Basically they want other classes to suffer because their main class was hit. They rather have the balance problems continue instead of wanting the solution to begin unless it is there own class. Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm while engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

[Solori.6025]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Basically they want other classes to suffer because their main class was hit. They rather have the balance problems continue instead of wanting the solution to begin unless it is there own class. Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm while engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

Yes.. Asking for fairness across the board is asking for everyone to suffer.How will we survive without your brilliant deductions Watson.

[Vieux P.1238]

Stop arguing, it's all broken.
Holo is Broken. Soulbeast is Broken. All stealth classes that attacks & ONE SHOTS you FROM STEALTH is broken. All Immortals builds Holding caps & never dies from 4v1 is broken. All immortals dealing wayyyy to much dps or condi is broken. All evasive thief dealing to much damage but never takes any is Broken. IT'S BROKEN"""!!!So pretty plz with sugar on top.. Break it, trash it & start over.... thq

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Basically they want other classes to suffer because their main class was hit. They rather have the balance problems continue instead of wanting the solution to begin unless it is there own class. Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm while engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

Yes.. Asking for fairness across the board is asking for everyone to suffer.How

will

we survive without your brilliant deductions Watson.

If were asking for fairness then I would like for every single one of your core weapons to be considered projectiles and get the projectile hate treatment.I would also think its fair if your phantasms took 0 % of your stats.Illusions and Phantasms damage dealing retaliation damage to you, no matter how much damage they do.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

"OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"

Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Basically they want other classes to suffer because their main class was hit. They rather have the balance problems continue instead of wanting the solution to begin unless it is there own class. Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm while engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

Yes.. Asking for fairness across the board is asking for everyone to suffer.How

will

we survive without your brilliant deductions Watson.

The Boosted AF Scrublord's Prayer:

My build is fine.And if you complain you're bad.And if you aren't bad you just don't know what you're talking about.And if you do know what you're talking about you just need to tweak your build.And if your build is good you're biased against my class.And if you aren't biased, you're just bitter about previous nerfs.And if you aren't bitter, my build can't be touched or the entire class wouldn't be viable anymore.And if would be then what about these OTHER OP builds?And if you want changes in other classes too, I deserve to be OP because of this time years ago when I was underpowered.

[praqtos.9035]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always FotmNo matter how bad mesmer was compared to other classes back then it was still there because of a portal.engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.Still continue to joke around ? Engineer always had meta OP level build

@mortrialus.3062The Boosted AF Scrublord's Prayer:Remind me of scrapper/holo/war players tbh

[Vagrant.7206]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

I'll reiterate the question as I don't think you remember.Why should Engineer be immune to being balanced like everyone else?Everyone else is balanced through core AND elite. Regardless of what has been nerfed in the past, regardless of what is used or not , regardless of the state of the core class or elite, and regardless of how logical the suggestions are that we present to anet ( Cause I spent a year pointing to a direct fix to condi-mirage only to have every other part of the core class nerfed). To fix a problem, classes are STILL nerfed through both core and elite.Not bitter ( I'll let you know when I am bitter). But the implication of " We have presented better nerfs" as a basis or argument against being treated as the other 8 classes is folie. I can't think of a time a class has been on the chopping block and someone didn't suggest a logical, fair nerf that would directly fix an issue.

Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

That is the way Anet balances, and I don't see why one class or group of people should be immune to that while everyone else gets the unpaid intern treatment

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Basically they want other classes to suffer because their main class was hit. They rather have the balance problems continue instead of wanting the solution to begin unless it is there own class. Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm while engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

Yes.. Asking for fairness across the board is asking for everyone to suffer.How

will

we survive without your brilliant deductions Watson.

If were asking for fairness then I would like for every single one of your core weapons to be considered projectiles and get the projectile hate treatment.I would also think its fair if your phantasms took 0 % of your stats.Illusions and Phantasms damage dealing retaliation damage to you, no matter how much damage they do.

I'm pretty sure we're beyond rational argumentation at this point. Arguing against emotions won't really get you anywhere.

[Engal.6359]

Holo is wayyyy overtuned. Same with scrapper. It's the alchemy trait line that's the problem IMO.

[DragonFury.6243]

Well if i know anything about Anet i know that they balance the game according to finals of monthly ATthe last AT show us having 4 herald is the best comp Anet dont like stacking profession in AT finals because that show GW2 as a children boring game so they hit the herald build and if the teams in the next AT stack herald again they ll nerf em again and again (i think herald needed that nerf thou)so in holo or engi in general is Okish in AT but not god tier like herald so you wont see comp stack engi or holos so Anet wont nerf engi or holo however holo and scraper is very good in ranked games but Anet do not balance the mode around that

we ll get a balance patch soon and i seeno nerf \ nerf or buff no1 care about for engi , teef , mesmer , reaper and core necro , DH and core guardian and rangerand if Anet must nerf any thing they ll nerf FB , scourge or herald and may be SB in an attempt to shake the comp but nothing will change

[praqtos.9035]

@DragonFury.6243 said:Well if i know anything about Anet i know that they balance the game according to finals of monthly ATFB/scourge always been at every single AT and always there no matter what.With death of mesmer 1-2 revs became common at AT's, damn, even 3 revenants lol.Somewhing was done to them? No. Holo also won last monthly on EU.So what you said its just wrong. They have no idea how they balance their own game.Scrapper is not god tier and everyone been like: scrapper is meh,leave it alone blabla. Next monthly : scrappers, everywhere,every team (may be few didnt had them).Right now, lets imagine there is no wintrading, top1 is silver3 scrapper. How would you explain this? Scrapper need emergency nerf everything by 50% if even silver3 players can get top1 with it :joy:

[Arkantos.7460]

no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

[Math.5123]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Except healing turret, and thumper turret on prot builds. But at least 3/5 of them are unviable. Look at guard concecrations, Ele weapons, engineer gadgets, necro minions. All of these would've made for a better argument.

[apharma.3741]

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.

• Great healing
• great armor
• great mobility
• great damage
• invuln
• stealth
• boon fart extraordinaire
• multi foe sustainability
• unblockable
• blocks
• superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
• oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

Some come from alchemy but a lot of the aspects of holosmith that make it overtuned is how much of a free lunch holosmith is baseline.

Heat Therapy alone gives 65 per unit of heat lost which when out of photon forge is almost the same as healing signet (325 vs 344) with this value doubled after 3s.Vent Exhaust adds onto this by not only giving almost a 1k burst heal per dodge, doing damage and maintaining forge..Lasers Edge, a free 15% damage boost in the trait line. Compare this with other "free" minor damage boosts and it's far higher than it should be.Photon Forge cool downs are incredibly low and many of the skills while toned down after multiple patches are still overloaded.Holo leap being on such a pathetically low cool down ensures it can be combo'd with all water fields for a 1.6k heal.The heat mechanic while many will say it's risky it's not compared to it's many rewards and how much is given from Photon Forge.Many traits and skills do multiple things but Holosmith isn't alone with how dumbed down and overloaded it is.It is the epitome of a spam class.

I explain how to tone down Holosmith as an example in this thread (5 up from last comment) but this can be applied to all classes.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/61083/on-power-creep-example-holosmith#latest

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Except healing turret, and thumper turret on prot builds. But at least 3/5 of them are unviable. Look at guard concecrations, Ele weapons, engineer gadgets, necro minions. All of these would've made for a better argument.

Gaurd consecrations provide no risk for use. While it does give up a utility slot it still has somewhat some value. (WvW they work great)Ele weapons dont see use, then again, its ele so there is no surprise there.Engineer gadgets, just another skill tree under engineer that underperforms.Necro minions, hit or miss. (SPvP, no way in hell. WvW roamer? Its decent and works). Wouldnt say these are worse then turrets cause at least they move and have some traits that make them meat shields.

The only use thumper turret has is blast fields, the actual thing itself is useless. What would possibly be nerfed on it?

[Math.5123]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Except healing turret, and thumper turret on prot builds. But at least 3/5 of them are unviable. Look at guard concecrations, Ele weapons, engineer gadgets, necro minions. All of these would've made for a better argument.

Gaurd consecrations provide no risk for use. While it does give up a utility slot it still has somewhat some value. (WvW they work great)

Neither does engineer turrets, so a pretty null point. Also, no wvw Firebrand build uses concs. They use shouts, mantras and meditations.Speaking of which, try playing dps guard without 5 meditations on your bar and tell me how it works out for you.

Ele weapons dont see use, then again, its ele so there is no surprise there.

Fair enough, I guess?

Engineer gadgets, just another skill tree under engineer that underperforms.

Gadgets are indeed underperforming, outside of rocket boots. They kind of need to be traited to be useful though (kind of like guard meditations).

Necro minions, hit or miss. (SPvP, no way in hell. WvW roamer? Its decent and works). Wouldnt say these are worse then turrets cause at least they move and have some traits that make them meat shields.

Stop.

The only use thumper turret has is blast fields, the actual thing itself is useless. What would possibly be nerfed on it?

Where in my post did I stare that it needed nerf? I just pointed out that it's strong enough to be used on builds such as decap engineer. (Probably because they don't really need the utility in order to live. Maybe cause the sustain they get from alchemy / heat therapy / vent exhaust / blast finishers are enough).

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Except healing turret, and thumper turret on prot builds. But at least 3/5 of them are unviable. Look at guard concecrations, Ele weapons, engineer gadgets, necro minions. All of these would've made for a better argument.

Gaurd consecrations provide no risk for use. While it does give up a utility slot it still has somewhat some value. (WvW they work great)

Neither does engineer turrets, so a pretty null point. Also, no wvw Firebrand build uses concs. They use shouts, mantras and meditations.Speaking of which, try playing dps guard without 5 meditations on your bar and tell me how it works out for you.

I play firebrand and make good use of consecrations depending on what my group lacks. The meta doesnt use it but just because its not meta doesnt mean its not viable.If I want to play dps gaurd I tend to go to my dragon hunter.

Engineer, no build can really make much use of the actual turrets aside from healing turret.

What value does rifle, net, flame, rocket turret bring? Only useful ones I see are flame and thumper due to their fields and thats it.

Ele weapons dont see use, then again, its ele so there is no surprise there.

Fair enough, I guess?

Engineer gadgets, just another skill tree under engineer that underperforms.

Gadgets are indeed underperforming, outside of rocket boots. They kind of need to be traited to be useful though (kind of like guard meditations).

Even traited they are pretty underwhelming.

Necro minions, hit or miss. (SPvP, no way in hell. WvW roamer? Its decent and works). Wouldnt say these are worse then turrets cause at least they move and have some traits that make them meat shields.

Stop.

Cant really hide from the truth. It doesnt beat things like warriors or things with tons of aoe damage, but shuts down thieves and rangers pretty well.

The only use thumper turret has is blast fields, the actual thing itself is useless. What would possibly be nerfed on it?

Where in my post did I stare that it needed nerf? I just pointed out that it's strong enough to be used on builds such as decap engineer. (Probably because they don't really need the utility in order to live. Maybe cause the sustain they get from alchemy / heat therapy / vent exhaust / blast finishers are enough).

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Except healing turret, and thumper turret on prot builds. But at least 3/5 of them are unviable. Look at guard concecrations, Ele weapons, engineer gadgets, necro minions. All of these would've made for a better argument.Just went off this. Stating that there isnt anything you can really nerf on thumper turret because it only is use for blast finishers.

[MrPhantasia.5924]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

Except we've presented multiple ways to nerf holo, but some people insist on nerfing core instead, almost like they have a vendetta.

Because no other class main has presented sensible nerfs to an issue to watch the community continue to have a vendetta and want core parts of the class nerfed. Get the core parts nerfed. Then come back to the forum and scream for more.

I'm genuinely confused by what you're saying here -- sounds like bitterness about something, so you want to hurt somebody else so they feel it too? I'm assuming you mean mesmer, but I guess you could mean other classes too. Still, there is

help out there

on the internet if you need it.

As for your proposition... we already had turrets nerfed so hard they never really came back. I'd rather not repeat the event.

Except healing turret, and thumper turret on prot builds. But at least 3/5 of them are unviable. Look at guard concecrations, Ele weapons, engineer gadgets, necro minions. All of these would've made for a better argument.

Mesmer glamors too