Removing Language Restrictions for EU World Linking

[kafka.1657]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:It makes perfect sense in the context, "... the language [preference of the worlds] wont be used during the next world linking".

Ok, all attempted humour aside, in no English dictionary or context does the word "language" mean "preference of the worlds." The term "language restriction" could have made sense in that context, but instead, the word "language" was used. I really hope this makes sense now, but if your aim is to continue arguing over such trivia until one of us is exhausted then I'll gladly give up, you win. :s

@"Stephane Lo Presti.7258" said:... "Yes the change is happening at the end of next week" ...

Thanks Stephane. :)

[kafka.1657]

I keep wondering how the EU roster will look after the relinking, given that there are 15 primary servers and 12 links.

Assuming that the strongest links will go to the weakest primary servers, that means the 3 strongest servers (atm: Deso, SFR and WSR) will get no links at all. Conversely, the strongest links, like maybe AG, RoF and GH, would likely go to Riverside, Kodash and RoS in tier 5.

How does everyone else see this?

(Please, let's try to keep this discussion about how the language restriction removal will affect the links we can expect and avoid any personal preferences and other emotional minefields.)

[Rashnu.5264]

@kafka.1657 said:Assuming that the strongest links will go to the weakest primary servers, that means the 3 strongest servers (atm: Deso, SFR and WSR) will get no links at all.

I'd expect this should be the default result by the Glicko system if the number of linkings doesn't change. However, it might be more helpful to look at another number. Europe has 15 WvW slots and 27 servers (forget the 12 present-day linkings). For example, the five French servers currently have 2 slots. (a pair of two and a triplet). Maybe in future this triplet won't exist anymore and those three servers are each paired with just one other server from anywhere.

I'm very much looking forward to this change. Regardless of the outcome, we won't have it for much longer than a year or so until the great WvW 'restructuring' comes along.

[acdspydar.8920]

@Rashnu.5264 said:until the great WvW 'restructuring' comes along.

Illusion 100

[RisingDaewn.8703]

@kafka.1657 said:I keep wondering how the EU roster will look after the relinking, given that there are 15 primary servers and 12 links.

Assuming that the strongest links will go to the weakest primary servers, that means the 3 strongest servers (atm: Deso, SFR and WSR) will get no links at all. Conversely, the strongest links, like maybe AG, RoF and GH, would likely go to Riverside, Kodash and RoS in tier 5.

How does everyone else see this?

That's what I fear aswell.There are too many Tiers and a not that many servers to link, which would actually balance out the population in the current system, with not so much active population to anymore, while most host servers are classified as Full.

GH seems quite a bandwagon, but they aren't winning because they aren't fully tryhard like Deso, which hardly has many queues nowadays.

[Xanadrine.4352]

I dont mind i just wish games would start putting in text translators so we can communicate better. Not just this game but other games as well that have an international population. I cant tell you how many times people have asked for a text translator.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Zuldari.3940" said:I cant tell you how many times people have asked for a text translator.

Presumably because they're asking in foreign languages.

But granted, if Anet implemented bad translator into the game that would be great. I'd love to see "chickens under invasion, great mass haircut pillar!" In teamchat.

[acdspydar.8920]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Zuldari.3940" said:I cant tell you how many times people have asked for a text translator.

Presumably because they're asking in foreign languages.

But granted, if Anet implemented bad translator into the game that would be great. I'd love to see "chickens under invasion, great mass haircut pillar!" In teamchat.

10/10 WvW would be fun again lol

[Rod.6581]

This sounds familiar, tho in other games they use "We are merging German, French and Spain servers with EU Servers"...Next move is to "Remove client restrictions" or as others would say "Merge NA and EU servers"...

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Rod.6581" said:This sounds familiar, tho in other games they use "We are merging German, French and Spain servers with EU Servers"...Next move is to "Remove client restrictions" or as others would say "Merge NA and EU servers"...Well ignoring the fact Anet are not merging any servers, the language notation would still be there, there are no client restrictions and merging regions would make both regions unhappy, because it's never been successfull in ping critical MMOs - its still the reason ESO imploded within 3 months, devs had to create regions (after previously having lied about them already being there) and make it f2p just to get people playing.

[Diku.2546]

Create a crisis & fix it...

Hmmm...for some reason...this mode of operation sounds vaguely familiar, but who am I to know.

---

Well after thinking about this topic...here's my take on it.

Language gives identity...something to let people bond together. It's not to say that people with different languages can't bond...it's just that it's going to take time & effort on both parties.

Based on past observation when Guest World servers lost their "identity" with the decision to use World Linking to bolster Host World servers...

Many Guest World server communities collapsed.

My opinion is that forcing servers to abandon their Language identity will have a similar result.

But wait, there's the chance we might be implementing Alliances.

Alliances are based on guilds so players will naturally form up groups and language will probably be a deciding factor that makes them bond better.

But wait, Guilds are notoriously known for power politic struggles. Given enough time...even the best run Guilds will be hard pressed to keep the motives of a few selfish players from destroying their own community.

In the end...we've already lost all the stable Guest Server team identities that once provided a steady stream of players migrating to the upper tiers...and were not controlled by Guild politics. Guilds didn't have the power to force players to leave. Guest servers also once provided a safe and slow paced niche where beginner players could learn to WvW (place for commanders to learn their craft)...without being thrown into deep waters filled with sharks. Don't forget the importance of having a stable WvW ecosystem to entice and prepare players for the bigger scheme that is WvW.

---

Now the plan is to loose Language identity...which is supposed to help create fairer links?

Followed-up by the loss of Host Server team identities when Alliance gets around to being implemented?

Long-term impact...you're removing the bonds that allow players to make choices to bond to a "national" team identity that's not dependent upon a Guild.

You're creating an ecosystem that has no "national" team identity & where players are required to bond with their Guild whether they like it or not.

There's a saying about history repeating itself...if we're not careful to learn from it.

It's more effective to focus on fixing the match-up mechanics & not the team-creation mechanics...if you're trying to improve the WvW game mode...imho

Sorry for the harsh criticism...but I really do love this game mode...still...and continue to support ANet's efforts to improve it.

---

Ok...we're really putting all our eggs in one basket to depend on Guilds to provide this WvW game mode a solid & stable community in the long term.

Predicted unintended consequence - Toxic player behavior is encouraged when Guild Officers are allowed to control other player's WvW success or failure.

Letting players control this aspect is like watching a train wreck happen & hoping it doesn't come to pass.

I might be wrong on this, but take a look at some of my past predictions & judge for yourself if my insights holds any water.

Inside joke - Beaver Dams & Water Wheels anyone?

Yours truly,Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

[Rod.6581]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Rod.6581" said:This sounds familiar, tho in other games they use "We are merging German, French and Spain servers with EU Servers"...Next move is to "Remove client restrictions" or as others would say "Merge NA and EU servers"...Well ignoring the fact Anet are not merging any servers, the language notation would still be there, there are no client restrictions and merging regions would make both regions unhappy, because it's never been successfull in ping critical MMOs - its still the reason ESO imploded within 3 months, devs had to create regions (after previously having lied about them already being there) and make it f2p just to get people playing.

Not sure we are talking about same thing.

[Diku.2546]

Hmm...hope I'm wrong, but it almost feels like I didn't have to wait too long for unintended consequences to impact the WvW community.

Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...is not the way to go...imho

Hope the insights I'm trying to provide in my posts will give enough feedback in finding a better long-term solution to keep this WvW game mode viable & profitable for ANet.

---

It's more critical to monitor if the long-term WvW population growth trend is increasing or decreasing?

Without knowing the solid statistical numbers...we can't really can't judge how effective these changes are. I doubt we'll get any details on this even if we asked, and I'd advise ANet shouldn't be publishing these numbers for strategic reasons that I'd rather not delve into.

So we're left to our own devices & personal perspectives...which can be inaccurate...so be careful to know the difference between fact & opinion.

Ok...having clarified the difference between fact & opinion...

Gut feeling says long-term WvW population growth was in a slow and negative trend before World Linking, but this negative trend accelerated when many of the Guest Server communities that were around since the start of GW2 collapsed due to the ripple effects of World Linking...imho

Language Linking will definitely have ripple effects that will eventually be felt over time...much like how World Linking has impacted the overall long-term Guest Server communities collapsing under extreme pressures at maintaining player bonds without a "national" team identity. Language Linking is another form of Team-Creation mechanics being used to create the "better team".

---

Ripple effects & unintended consequences...

This WvW game mode is like an aquarium tank ecosystem...if you're not careful...things can go bad really quickly...and being an inhabitant of this ecosystem myself since the tank was first setup...always has me worried.

Yes, let's wait & see again?

nervous chuckle

Although, I was hoping we'd consider directly changing the base match-up mechanics & not the base team-creation mechanics again.

---

Team-Creation mechanics tosses everybody up in the air & never lets players find a niche to call home.

Team Creation mechanics only attracts & enables toxic communities in the Long-Term. You don't need to be nice, and neighbors don't need to be nice anymore...when they keep changing & it doesn't matter anymore. Just be nice to your family (Guild)...that's the only players you need to worry about right?

Wrong...players still need to worry...Alliance Linking...that is being planned...already gives Guild Officers the power to decide on who stays or gets kicked from their guild. Keep in mind guilds are notorious for internal power struggles in the Long-Term...imho

---

TLDR - Team-Creation Mechanics:

1) Killed Guest Server Communities - Example - Server Linking.2) Unintentionally is Killing our Language based Communities - Example - Removing Language Restrictions for EU World Linking.3) Planned Killing of Host Server Communities - Example - Alliance Linking.

WvW is on a path where the game attracts & enables toxic communities which is bad for the Long-Term financial health of ANet...imho

Yours truly,Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

[nthmetal.9652]

I've seen the whining, I've witnessed the effects of so-called "bad" linkups, too and I think the display here is overly dramatic and does not reflect reality. Gandara, my own server has been sitting in t3, even threatened to go down to t4, and suddenly we're back up in t1 despite the "bad" linkup. I admit with the exception of the last week, we've been really struggling, but once we were in t3 and the grouping changed, things were suddenly alright again. Bad linkup? Patience.Piken, apparently currently sitting in t3 and doing quite well there is in overall ranking the 7th best server, and apparently, if they keep up their performance, going up 2 places ... (all according to gw2stats.com ). Yeah, clearly the end is nigh.

What's the worst that'll happen? You go down a tier, two... three.... and find opponents you can actually fight there again, where you got constantly steamrolled in the weeks before. I really fail to see the big drama. Come time, the situation changes, through your own rank, and additionally (and in a much less controllable way) through transfers of whole groups to other servers. Because you know, the grass is always greener elsewhere ...

[Crash.5486]

I play wvw to have fun and socialise with people. Which usually means talk to them. If you are gonna link different languages then whats the point of joining? I'm now a EU server linked to a german one. Global chat is filled with german that I hardly understand. Yes the commander yells some known words here and there but thats about it. Now you are forcing me to changed to a main EU server if I want socialise. The EU is not like the US where you can link the servers. There are languages that you should just devide. And this has nothing to do with where they are from or who they are. I just wanna talk to people that I can understand and who understand me. And no I don't want to be the annoying person that constantly has to ask please talk english because I can't understand you. They joined a german/french/ spanish server for the same reason I joined a european/english one. So I think this is a bad idea that I think should be undone asap.

[Rasimir.6239]

@Crashdown.7419 said:I'm now a EU server linked to a german one. Global chat is filled with german that I hardly understand. Yes the commander yells some known words here and there but thats about it.If you are on Vabbi, there's some server-internal drama going on on your host server. You're not missing out if you don't understand what's being said (unless you like bad soap operas ;) ). Give it a week or two, by then most of the drama potential will have transfered away and map chat should be fine to socialize again (unless you like to troll/trash talk, that doesn't go over too well with many people on that server).

[Kumbaya.4689]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@Crashdown.7419 said:I'm now a EU server linked to a german one. Global chat is filled with german that I hardly understand. Yes the commander yells some known words here and there but thats about it.If you are on Vabbi, there's some server-internal drama going on on your host server. You're not missing out if you don't understand what's being said (unless you like bad soap operas ;) ). Give it a week or two, by then most of the drama potential will have transfered away and map chat should be fine to socialize again (unless you like to troll/trash talk, that doesn't go over too well with many people on that server).

I am in Vabbi and yes, it is being really hard to socialize, as I don't speak German at all. So from my perspective this non language restrictions thing was not a good move.I guess it is time to transfer to an international host server, even not wanting to.

[Anrkides.4083]

Im from Middle EU and english is my second language but i will never stay on server who will be linked with some national servers.Thats not a racism,. But im not interested to listen like 50 ppl on TS/discord who are talking about something what i dont understand, even if commander using words, like "Bomb here" stack or back, or some commands in english. I would rather stop playing this game. We need Alliance system ASAP.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Anrkides.4083" said:Im from Middle EU and english is my second language but i will never stay on server who will be linked with some national servers.Thats not a racism,. But im not interested to listen like 50 ppl on TS/discord who are talking about something what i dont understand, even if commander using words, like "Bomb here" stack or back, or some commands in english. I would rather stop playing this game. We need Alliance system ASAP.

But you're not forced to listen to their ts/discord? You are the odd person there coming from the link server, they where there all along. And in the same way, you literally still have your own server thats the same it was before the link with an international server. Did they also suddenly started talking another language on their international ts/discord?

The alliance system would do exactly the same btw and possibly dump your alliance/guild with spanish, french and german alliances/guilds at the same time.

[APELLA.2415]

only english for international servers plz. it's impossible to play like it's now (aurora glade in my case. i read 80% of german. i feel like i'm playing alone)

Also: it will be possible one day, have an easten international server? (i mean, i'm from Japan. I really wish to have an english speaking asian server)

[APELLA.2415]

@APELLA.2415 said:only english for international servers plz. it's impossible to play like it's now (aurora glade in my case)

And: if people is obligated to switch server for languages reasons, make it FREE. if i have to pay for the possibility to speak english, dunno if i will continue to follow this game (because it's impossible to preview which kind of language will speak in future my choosen server. I could feel tricked).

I love gw. Please, help me to play it.

Thank you.

(by a day one player)

[Dayra.7405]

@APELLA.2415 said:Also: it will be possible one day, have an easten international server? (i mean, i'm from Japan. I really wish to have an english speaking asian server)Maybe an asian match, but a single server where asians are concentrated is a bad idea, due to time-difference, you have prime when no one else has.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@APELLA.2415 said:only english for international servers plz. it's impossible to play like it's now (aurora glade in my case. i read 80% of german. i feel like i'm playing alone)

Also: it will be possible one day, have an easten international server? (i mean, i'm from Japan. I really wish to have an english speaking asian server)

maybe that is because the germans outnumber AG players by 4:1?

GH link with Dzag was pretty nice. No language problems what so ever.

[Kumbaya.4689]

@APELLA.2415 said:only english for international servers plz. it's impossible to play like it's now (aurora glade in my case. i read 80% of german. i feel like i'm playing alone)

Also: it will be possible one day, have an easten international server? (i mean, i'm from Japan. I really wish to have an english speaking asian server)

Vabbi in my case. The public chats are almost all the time in german. Not fun at all.

Unfortunately I am afraid the non languages restrictions came to stay.

[Dawdler.8521]

@linamaria.1830 said:

@"APELLA.2415" said:only english for international servers plz. it's impossible to play like it's now (aurora glade in my case. i read 80% of german. i feel like i'm playing alone)

Also: it will be possible one day, have an easten international server? (i mean, i'm from Japan. I really wish to have an english speaking asian server)

Vabbi in my case. The public chats are almost all the time in german. Not fun at all.

Unfortunately I am afraid the non languages restrictions came to stay.Its kind of odd for a complaint in a multiplayer game to be "people talk to much to each other!"But if no one on Vabbi speaks isnt that the natural outcome?