Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update - Page 9 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update

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  • I love running into a SLB in Plat because 90% of the time, they are tryna run a one shot rapid fire build and unless I'm a Scourge, they are rez bait. Quickness rapid fire takes a single dodge to avoid. Of course I still have allies who tunnel vision and forget there is a SLB, but its just a different type of +1.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do you really need sicem? Seems to me there are enough modifiers to bring a tougher amulet and better utility.

    I still wombo combod by soulbeast not running sicem.

    I think ranger greatsword is like the best greatsword kit in the game.

    Maybe I am wrong.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

    It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

    It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

    Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

    It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

    It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

    Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

    They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

    It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

    It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

    Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

    They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

    You can balance without exaggerating too.

    Another thing people do in this forum thread is mention builds that literally have no role in top tier play. Like sic em ranger, it's just not good and is horrible against competent players.

    This is why nerfing that is not a big issue honestly, because it's irrelevant in top tier and it becomes useless for a variety of reasons.

    Again, looking at specific builds and not roles. Sic em or 1shot ranger provides no role outside of being an insta-target against people who have a brain and understand enemy cooldowns and class weaknesses. If you're doing 8k autos (you're not) , but even if you were then you're not a duelist side node role and most likely running a glassy build which means you just what, run around and 1up? There's other solidified roles for that that are much better and have more sustain.

    You will get destroyed and most likely even a revenant will just destroy you and they don't even role 1v1 capability. For that matter even a good thief would beat you, which ironically is probably the highest counter to thief making your role as a duelist completely irrelevant.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

    It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

    It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

    Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

    They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

    Someone posted a video in the WvW forum recently with their SB running around auto-attacking and rapid firing (video aimed at nerfing them obviously), and what do you know, there was not one 8K auto-attack. Their auto-attacks (as expected ranged anywhere from 800-2k. I think the highest one peaked at 3100. So the question is, why do you (and others because you're not the only one) continually make these exaggerated claims on their damage?

    Like ZhouX said, if you are doing 8k autos (which you're not), but if you were, other players like me (who plays a Rev) will simply just teleport in and drop the player playing the SB. It's worth noting, I absolutely suck at 1v1, but one of my fav things to do is wipe out players who falsely get on LB Soulbeasts expecting it to be easy-mode because the forum claims them to be.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

  • @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

  • Jimarius.2843Jimarius.2843 Member ✭✭

    Sweet mother of mercy are you ultra terribles still complaining about SB? I'm in plat and I haven't even seen an SB this season. Everyone knows its a meme build that gets thrashed the second you use it.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

    It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

    It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

    Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

    Once class being over powered does not justify other classes being over powered.

    No one is overlooking Holo and Spellbreaker. We have long threads discussing them at length.

    Lol, there's threads on these forums detailing why ever single class should receive a plethora of nerfs by a number of different people. That doesn't make it actually true though..

    Honestly, I know this seems harsh but maybe if you're complaining about all 3 classes and most likely others too outside of your own class that you most likely main, maybe you just need to get better and understand them and actually multi-class more. In PvP this is honestly the only route if you want to get better, if you're facing difficult classes, use that to get better and understand them.

    When you find yourself complaining about nearly ever single class besides your own, I think it might be time to stop looking at the class and start looking at yourself.

    Again as harsh as that sounds, I'm most likely going to be received with hate OF COURSE, because egos exist but it is the reality of PvP especially in this game but really in any game.

    99% of the forums though honestly just really need to get better and actually practice efficiently against better players constantly, does it suck being frustrated trying to learn some stuff against good players? Sure, but that's the route to get better.

    I guarantee you, if you practice those classes with the class itself and also playing against them against somebody like Kronos in duels and in situational understanding, you'd probably delete your thread within a week.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well what's balance? Every skill 1-5 does the exact same dps etc on every class. Every class has same utilities,hp and armor values?
    Until arenanet stops listening to players everytime they cry about things balance will never be close to perfect,tho it could never be.
    If a class is more complex or has harder to do its rotations but slightly out dps a class that requires way less input players of the easier class will still flood the forums crying about the broken dps 9f the harder class and eventually like we have now classes like ele and thief get nerfed to end up not only being more difficult to play but in general weaker than the face roll classes. Than because the face roll classes are easier and more appealing they get more attention and end up further buffed lmao. Because it's our nature if most players get rolled by a class that does more burst than them but the class is squishier or more complex to play it matters little people will still go to forums and rally until it gets nerfed so theres no pay off anymore to playing squishy or complex classes. Anet should have just messed with few thing blatently problematic that players complained about than the rest stick to their own vision. If they did that ele and thief my not be where they are now

  • @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

    You didn't deny it.
    You don't pvp.
    And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

    You didn't deny it.
    You don't pvp.
    And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

    I'm not going to indulge your strange personal vendetta. Sorry you're on the losing side of the nerf debate. Best get used to it or move on.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

    You didn't deny it.
    You don't pvp.
    And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

    I'm not going to indulge your strange personal vendetta. Sorry you're on the losing side of the nerf debate. Best get used to it or move on.

    He is so mad to stalk you in the game ? You probably hurt his feelings big time.
    Would be funny to see if they really disable pvp forum for you if your rating is less than 1700 :joy:

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

    You didn't deny it.
    You don't pvp.
    And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

    I'm not going to indulge your strange personal vendetta. Sorry you're on the losing side of the nerf debate. Best get used to it or move on.

    He is so mad to stalk you in the game ? You probably hurt his feelings big time.
    Would be funny to see if they really disable pvp forum for you if your rating is less than 1700 :joy:

    stalk? You can add friends.

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

    A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

    So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

    I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

    I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

    I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

    So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

    Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

    This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

    This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

    You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

    Roles, not classes.

    I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

    Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

    What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

    I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

    What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

    Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

    In short:

    Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

    Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

    Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

    There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

    Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

    I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

    As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

    Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

    You didn't deny it.
    You don't pvp.
    And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

    I'm not going to indulge your strange personal vendetta. Sorry you're on the losing side of the nerf debate. Best get used to it or move on.

    :(

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,