Za Shaloc.3908

Part of why I am in favor of choice-based skill flipping on the utility skills it to make the legend feel more interlaced and self-incorporated than it currently does. Previously the skill flipping felt clunky, inefficient, and wasteful, and now it just feels dry and lacking depth. Current Vindicator really just doesn't meet that thoughtful and complex mark that I was really hoping to get in our new e-spec. I want to see both Saint Viktor and Archemorus really have the option of working together rather than exclusively separatelty and one at a time. It is a way of "having your cake and eating it too." The current iteration feels like a quick bandaid solution to perhaps test out the opposite extreme to what existed in the first beta round, and I really hope ANet takes the time to meet halfway with both versions of the alliance to bring the best of both worlds. In its current form I will play the heck out of a support build without a doubt, but I am still unsatisfied with their vision of making an actually complex, thoughtful, and fluid mechanic. I don't really see how this idea would interfere with those who want to play a pure-Arch-or-SV-except-for-emergency playstyle as it still allows you to camp whichever skills you want to camp due to the 3-second window. Accidentally twitch-flipping skills shouldn't really happen if they implement it properly and give it a short ICD. Bad example of incomplete implementation is Virtuoso sword 3, which will cancel the leap and insta port back; ANet can and should easily fix these issues just like any other flipover skills.

That sounds incredibly overbloated.

I would be on board for Spear having CC if and only if they made an exception to have it still deal damage in PvP/WvW. In my eyes the spear should be the big burst damage skill of the legend and I would hate to see it reduced to 1 damage in competitive modes.

A tether from the spear is actually a great idea, probably my fav idea I have seen so far for it. Still maintains its uniqueness while also giving it a nice special bonus for focused single-target damage.

Was thinking it could be cool to have Spear originally cast as a damage-based upkeep and then have the toggle off be the actual spear throw skill that is currently in the game, perhaps even increasing in power based on the upkeep duration that was maintained (like charging the spear throw).

Personally I liked the idea of skill flipping, but I did not like the execution. I found it unfun for a couple reasons primarily: -There was a 10s cooldown between using the flipover skills. It felt like there was no flow to the legend, and I felt encouraged to camp the legend far too long to gain maximum value from it, rather than swapping legends more frequently. For Rev, I think legend swapping frequently should always be encouraged. With that said, the low cooldowns and energy costs of its new iteration allow for major legend camping as well. But I would rather them try to solve that differently than the old flipover mechanic. -The old flipover mechanic encouraged completely wasting skills in order to cycle to what I wanted. Most notable was having to use urn as a dps in order to regain access to Spear, and having to use Scavenger Burst as a healer in order to regain access to Tree Song. You had the flip function which did indeed allow you to gain quicker access to skills, but it was honestly too much micromanagement for it to be legitimately fun or fluid. I played for probably 24 hours in the last beta for Vindi and adapted to it but still didn't enjoy it because it felt wrong and in poor design to waste skills. I will give you that SV is probably too overtuned right now in its support potential and that Saint's Shield should have some of its strength moved from the base values to modifiers. But I would rather them solve that through different balance methods than the old flipover mechanic. Before these changes were implemented, my compromise suggestion to the flipover mechanic was that after using every Alliance skill, you had 3 seconds to flip that individual skill over to the other dude, giving you access to the flipover skill. If you choose not to flip it over, you keep that skill as is. The alliance swap skill could then go back to swapping each individual skill rather than the entire legend. Perhaps an energy discount could be implemented to encourage proper weaving of the alliances as well.

Wow. Where did the bad Thief touch you?

Didn't get to play in this beta as much as I would have liked, but nonetheless I would like to provide some feedback on support Vindicator as the vast majority of the feedback is in regards to how it performs in a DPS role. For context: I main Rev and have probably over 6k hours on the class. I spent a significant amount of hours on Vindi during the previous beta but only about 6-8 hours this time around. I played this exclusively in WvW this time around in small- to medium-scale unorganized fights. Sadly the quality of content was seriously lacking each time I was on. This time around I stuck to Jalis/Alliance Minstrel/Monk Staff/GS with Invo/Salv/Vindi. Some initial thoughts: It is very fun to play as a support. While still not on the level of Firebrand or Scrapper, I really enjoyed myself the entire time and felt like I was making a strong impact in every fight I was in. The cleanse and healing potential is absolutely massive. To be honest, it feels like a more successful and simplified version of Ventari. Although I love playing with the tablet, it was nice to get more reliable healing, better self-defense, better cleanse, while still being able to run Jalis for the roads and RotGDs. The energy costs and cooldowns are both very low which makes it feel a bit like old-school Rev. With that said, it is not perfect, so I would like to provide some critiques as well. Tree Song is fantastic. Being able to cleanse such large amounts from so far away is very powerful. The healing per cleanse is also extremely potent, but this is the spec's only way to heal from range, and is conditional upon the number of condis on the ally. Battle Dance feels much better in this iteration. Much smoother than it was previously, but this skill does admittedly feel a bit like filler. While truly nice to have an on-demand evade to make up for the dodges costing 100 endurance, it doesn't feel like it carries too much impact. I would suggest the following additions: * Replace the regen with swiftness. Regen is everywhere in this spec and it feels a bit overkill here, to be honest. Swiftness is nowhere on the spec and can only be accessed via blasting Jalis roads. * Add AoE blind. I have thought perhaps Aegis would be appropriate, but that is likely stepping too much on the toes of Guardian. Awakening is just wonderful. Can't tell you how nice it is to have an AoE stunbreak. Personally I don't think this skill needs any changes. Selfless Spirit may feel weak when playing solo, but when actually utilized as an AoE heal, the 10s cooldown is a massive benefit. Only complaint is that is has a rather small radius. I would like to see it increased to 300 or 360 radius. Urn of Saint Viktor. What a controversial skill this is. Seems like most people hate it but I personally love it. I actually don't have an issue with it damaging me over time OR with it stopping all incoming healing. It is a fair enough drawback. My issue is the fact that Slam Urn has a cast time. While I do understand the intent behind it, it makes the drawback exponentially more dangerous when you have a skill that is slowly killing you that is ALSO extremely prone to being interrupted from turning off. While I appreciate the thought behind it, I think it should be removed. Rev also continues to be the only class that has no rez trait or skill. Urn is the perfect opportunity to implement this. I propose the following: * Rework the functionality of Slam Urn. Move it from the toggle-off skill to a passive benefit that is gained from completing a dodge while Urn is active. Why? It makes the skill much less of a liability to use while still maintaining its drawback, and also ties in the new dodging mechanic into the new legend. Additionally, you are also literally slamming the ground when you dodge, so the idea of it also slamming the urn is not far-fetched. Keep in mind this would not toggle off the skill; the toggle off would simply function like any other core legend upkeep skill. This would function like a pseudo-Embrace the Darkness. * Add a rez functionality to the new slam mechanic (Slammimg the urn on downed allies revives them by X%). * Increase the upkeep cost to -7 or -8. With this added benefit, the increased cost would be very much justified. Honestly -5 feels too low. Part 2 of this critique is going to be in regards to the vision of the elite spec, and especially the Alliance Stance. While the new F3 functionality is a buff to the playstyles I was choosing, it feels like a major bandaid solution for a larger issue. The stance doesn't feel well integrated into itself. It feels like 2 legends with their skills turned into their inverse (damage to healing, vice versa) without much thought into how they actually play together. Playing support, I have almost zero reason to swap into Archemorus, and I can't help but feel like that takes away from the vision and intention of the spec. The legend fills 2 roles individually, but it greatly lacks cohesion. It feels half-baked and like an ambitious idea was given up on in order to settle for something that is more simple, but also disjointed. Unlike Saint Viktor, I really did not like the way Archemorus felt. The skills generally feel a bit uninspired and the one that is that is the most interesting and unique (Spear of Archemorus) is also incredibly undertuned and impractical. I want to actually *want* to weave between the two sub-legends, but I don't find there to be any incentive to, especially when playing as a support. Now if I am left with a support spec that I can play that is effective, I am happy regardless, but I would argue that such is not a sign of an actually successfully executed and mechanically interesting spec. Granted, I think Renegade was also a major fail on many levels and am happier with Vindicator. In conclusion: I am grateful that I can salvage what I see as a very potent support build out of this elite spec, but I still think the overall *vision* of the e-spec really misses the mark.

Duration of Death Drop's modifier bonus is 15s whereas it is only 6s for Saint's Shield. This sounds like more of an oversight than a bug but I am assuming both are intended to be normalized to match the new middleground of dodges now costing 100 endurance.

Support Vindi felt really nice in WvW. Healing and cleanse potential is extremely high. Killed myself a lot with the urn because I was using it far too recklessly. I would like them to remove the slam effect in its current iteration and instead just give the bonus effect if dodging while the upkeep is up, and increase the upkeep to -7. Although the risk is cool in theory, in practice it is easily a huge liability. Otherwise, a 10s CD heal skill is nice, and in general the low cooldowns feel great. Would like it if the evade utility gave swiftness instead of regen considering the legend is littered with regen everywhere. Not a fan of how power Vindi with Alliance stance feels. I felt like half as powerful than I do on my normal core Rev build unless I got a nice meaty gs5 burst off on somebody. Archemorus feels meh and generally unimpactful. Was not really feeling it at all. Annoyed that GS3 distance is still bugged. The legend icon and legend swap art are still visual abominations.

I am interested in it, but admittedly I am a lot less hyped about it now after seeing the patch notes. Was my favorite beta espec to play and thematically and hypothetically fits everything I would want in a spec, but I do fear that they are going to be too conservative with it. I can't help but think that it's going to be a victim of its own uniqueness when the rest of the game follows different rules, and that it will see limited play because of this. Was hoping for some more substantial changes in regards to the tether mechanic and supporting allies while in shroud. Still time before EoD launch so we'll see. At the end of the day it is probably something I will just casually play in WvW for fun, provided they work on the UI and allied targeting integration.

Surely, it is a matter of taste, I just happen to value my taste more lol.

Yeah I wish they would do this. The jumping animation just goes too far into the realm of cheese for me. It looks so comical to me. Devs are probably too proud of the "Death Drop" trait name to wanna change it though 😂.

This is basically how I feel as well. In regards to the OP: Power Rev is fantastic in WvW (and seems competitive/meta in PvP but I don't play that so won't comment on that) across all specs: core, Herald, and Renegade. The only time I ever feel I am lacking damage is if I am fighting a tank build, but I think it is fair to say that nearly any power spec deals with the same issue. Swords are just fine the way they are. Hammer could use some love to make it more usable in different contexts, but it's not damage that it is lacking. Using examples like clearing camps or fighting a vet PvE mob is a bit disingenuous because that is vastly different from fighting players. You bring up fighting condi Thieves being tough to fight against, but I would argue that is more of a matchup issue than it is a sign that power Rev needs damage buffs.

While I would have preferred every dodge to get brought down to 50 endurance while decreasing their potency, in general I am actually a big fan of these changes. I think the legend will feel massively better with the lower cooldowns and with the F2 being split. As a support fan who felt potential in the previous Vindi beta, I am pretty hyped for how it will feel in WvW. I will be happy to just straight up ignore most of the orange skills and look forward to not having to waste energy to cycle back to the skills I want. In general though I could very likely see the F2 being completely ignored in most circumstances across most builds. These changes in general create more playable and viable builds even though they they encourage ignoring a big part of the elite spec's mechanic. Not saying the changes are perfect, but I think they were a big step in the right direction. At least we got substantial mechanical changes unlike our poor Virtuoso comrades.

Sure it was on the decline, I am not denying that. But I am speaking from my personal experience. I am not trying to make any sort of statement on why Warclaw is bad for the game mode, but how it really killed a lot of my own personal enjoyment for WvW. I know there are many who feel otherwise and I understand why. Sounds like you are speaking from the perspective of a bitter Necro who couldn't enjoy roaming as much pre-Warclaw due to your lack of mobility. Makes sense. I am speaking from the perspective of a bitter Shiro Rev.

I really really hope they give traits their own interactions when siphoning an ally, and even stealth "attacking" them too. If you are playing support, siphoning an ally should be the ideal and most effective option to support them, but currently it doesn't feel that way at all. The spec feels disjointed and incomplete without those allied interactions.

Pretty clear based on the posts here that everyone has different opinions. For me, the single biggest factor that "killed" roaming for me was the Warclaw. When solo roaming, there is nothing more frustrating to me than juking and outrunning people but still being kept in combat by that one person on a Warclaw who lanced me, and then to be caught up to by the other people who OOC and Warclaw back up despite having no build investment into mobility. Not trying to make a campaign to remove it because clearly that will never happen, but them introducing Warclaw was the one change since my WvW career that has turned me off the most to roaming. At this point roaming can be fun still but it is generally not worth it if you are playing solo. The amount of time actually searching for good fights is much higher than actually getting good fights. Unless you wanna play omegacheese builds to be able to handle outnumbering more easily, which is only fun for so long.

Just have to follow up with another comment that the more I play this spec, the more I like it. There's a lot of little intricacies to it that are so enjoyable and it is nice having a spec with a lot of complexity behind it.

Some feedback after spending an unholy amount of time on it yesterday. Context: I played both full support (Minstrel) and full condi (Trailblazer). Have yet to try any hybridized stats. I am also not a Thief main so keep that in mind. I have barely touched the class in four years so am trying to get the hang of it again. INITIAL THOUGHTS ON VIABILITY As a condi roamer in WvW, it felt very strong and like a pretty solid pick. Not the strongest of roaming builds by any means, but a good option nonetheless. Playing an offensive dps-centric build felt more "complete" and polished than playing a full support build. It seemed to scale poorly in larger fights, but this is unsurprising given how the spec was designed, and even still, having the shroud skills did increase its teamfight potential a bit. Additionally, it was nice to still be full TB and pump barrier to allies. Is this a good or a bad thing for balance? Not too sure, but it made the spec feel versatile since the base values are all very solid (though the modifiers are consequently on the lower side). As a support, it seemed to be pretty alright. Still largely eclipsed by FB/Scrapper/Tempest, but I think that's territory that's just not worth trying to cross because it would change too much of how this spec is designed (and also Scrapper support is *massively* overtuned for WvW and will eclipse all other secondary support options until it receive further nerfs). In large scale it seems like the playstyle is to try to use shadowsteps to build up shroud in order to blow all your juice for Consume Shadows. In small scale, this spec fits in much better but I would still not really ever take it over other options. in terms of playstyle though? It is very fun and unique and fits the sort of "roaming healer" niche that I have always wanted. INITIATIVE TRADEOFF The initiative pool felt totally fine when using scepter with the current initiative tuning, but I'm not too sure about how it would feel without playing scepter. I mained Thief back before the new obsession of increasing the initiative costs for everything, so that is still taking some getting used to for me. Trickery feels like even more of a lock now, which was already mandatory for most builds in PvP/WvW. SCEPTER Scepter is such a cool weapon. Really happy with how it has been implemented and how it functions with the duality to it. Scepters are one of my favorite weapon types so I can't tell you how stoked I was to see Thief get it. Will probably finally make Xiuquatl now that I know the weapon is not a dud. Autoattack chain seems fine. Don't think there are really any issues on either end of it in terms of functionality. The sound effect is very jarring--wish it were less "warehousey" sounding and more...ghastly/spooky? Visuals are beautiful though. Scepter 2 (Shadow Sap) seems to lack....purpose? It's hard to really justify using it when the dual skills just feel better. I found myself using it at times if using sc/p to apply barrier to my allies so I could avoid porting in closer to danger, but I still can't help but feel like it needs something. If they don't want to add any damaging conditions to it, then perhaps a blind? For allies I would recommend that it cleanses 1 condition for them. IMO that would make it worth using over the dual skills as it gives it a different purpose, and would make the weapon feel less spammy. Scepter/Pistol dual skills (Measured Shot/Endless Night) both felt great. The skills are both incredibly versatile and carry impact while also having enough counterplay with Endless Night being a long channel. My only complaint is how buggy they both are when used on allies. Measured Shot will at times port you far away from your ally (seems to happen when up close) and Endless Night will often fail if used when an ally is too close or moving around too much. Would be nice if Endless Night was more forgiving in being able to be channeled from behind after a certain period in order to allow the allied cast to fully succeed. Scepter/Dagger dual skill (Twilight Combo) felt okay. I spent like 90% of my time on sc/p so I can't really give too much feedback on sc/d but it just didn't seem to have the impact that sc/p does. Dueled a full power Specter using sc/d a few times and got wrecked, so perhaps it is just better for power/hybrid builds? I think that the allied portion seems to be just a bit undertuned and if that was addressed, would otherwise feel okay. Perhaps introduce a piercing or "boomerang" mechanic to it? It seemed to have okay tracking, but still seemed a bit buggy. I would use it sometimes on allies and the quick shot would fail to hit the arc, so it would just slowly float towards the ally. Kinda funny to see but unnecessarily clunky. SHROUD Removed. Want to test this more. WELLS The shadowstepping component of wells for Specter is both a positive and a negative. I am happy to accept this as a risk/reward component to the skills and I think they make the wells feel not only more unique, but also more fitting for Thief. Well of Tears is my biggest pain point with the wells. Specter seems to very clearly be focused on conditions, healing, and boon support, and this well feels like total filler. There are only 2 supportive wells and 1 is the healing skill, so it feels out of place and unfitting to have this one here. Please, convert this to something like this: Well of Purging: Shadowstep to the target location and drop a well that converts conditions from allies to barrier. If allies have no conditions, grant barrier instead. Aside from Well of Tears, I think the other wells have good design while still being straightforward. I would argue that the CD on Well of Silence is potentially too high in competitive (50s) and could be dropped down to 40. TRAITS Before getting into the Specter traits, I have to say that I was massively disappointed that there is no trait synergy between steal traits and Siphoning an ally (at least from what I tested). While I understand the cooldown for Siphon is incredibly low when using it on an ally, it feels really bad to have a traits do nothing. It doesn't need full potency from the traits per se, but there should be at least some synergy there. This is part of what makes Siphon feel like it's not worth it when used on an ally. In terms of the actual Specter traitline, the bottom line is probably the most coherent and polished of all of the lines, allowing for AoE allied support. They are all impactful and I don't think they really need much changing. Well done on their design. The condition damage synergy within the line is a bit odd, to say the least. Larcenous Torment is great and brings solid sustained shroud gen. I was surprised there was no option for such in the adept line, and I find the grandmaster trait "Strength of Shadows" strange as it is focused heavily on Rot Wallow Venom, which is only for allies. Is a cDPS Specter intended to autoattack an ally on fights instead of the actual enemy? If so that is....unique and potentially interesting, but IMO this trait should be simplified and be made to be more selfish so it doesn't have to rely on an ally to maximize. Why introduce a 300s CD trait into the game now?! Like, do you have no intention on fixing the other 300s CD traits already in the game? This gives me the impression that you don't. While the trait itself is cool in terms of its functionality, it is the same sort of passive lifesaving cheese that doesn't need to be in the game. Please just remove the trait, move the scepter down to the middle line, and introduce a condi trait in the adept line. Amplified Siphoning may be a bit underperforming. Not sure of any context where I would choose this trait over the others. If this master line is for modifying shroud gain, perhaps approach it in a different way for this one. Could also just be a numbers thing. Cleansing on Hungering Darkness is arguably overtuned, though this could be moreso an issue of the shroud CD starting upon entering shroud. It allows for massive self-condi cleanse. CLOSING THOUGHTS While far from perfect and still needing iteration and tuning, I am very happy with Specter. It is the most thoughtfully designed of all the EoD specs and has a lot of complexity to it that really make me love it. There's a lot of inherent versatility to the class and it seems to have a really high skill ceiling, which is a huge drawing factor for me. I applaud the devs for being innovative with their design approach for this spec and for daring to take a risk in playstyle for this. At this point, this will be my main spec in EoD unless the other specs get some major improvements.

Posted this in the wrong thread. Please delete, mods.

Ha. Yeah actually after posting that I went in game to try it out and had myself a good laugh cycling through minis and flame rams in WvW. 🤣

Curious how certain traits will interact when targetting an ally. Will Bountiful Theft copy allied boons or just simply grant vigor? Will Mug still grant health? Will Improv have any skill classified as a "Stolen" skill, perhaps within Shroud? Will the fear from Rending Shade proc on nearby enemies if hitting an ally with a stealth attack?

Based purely on the showcases and not the actual gameplay... Specter actually has me hyped. I told myself I wouldn't make the mistake of getting excited before the actual gameplay due to previous disappointments, but Specter has nearly everything I could ever want all packed together in one, so I have kinda failed at curbing my enthusiasm. Cautiously optimistic, but I really love the foundation they have layed out for the spec. I of course have my worries about the spec and its potential flaws, but still...there is a lot to love about it. The fact that allied targeting now exists in the game is just amazing to me and is a true game changer for the future of this game's design and design philosophies. I haven't played Thief seriously since PoF but it was my first true main and remained so for a while. Untamed I thought was okay but IMO more in line with the previous batches of e-specs in that it felt half-baked and not fully realized. I think the spec has potential but I was disappointed that all pets will share the same 3 untamed pet skills. Hammer seemed fine, the cantrips seemed mostly decent, and more control over pet skills is really neat. In general i thought it looked alright. Not too many feelings from it. I struggle to see it finding a spot in large scale WvW but could very well be wrong. Ranger is my second most played class but I don't play it much anymore so didn't really have any expectations or hopes for the spec. Mechanist honestly looked really interesting. I think the trait system of them modifying the mech skills is quite neat. The signets actually seem pretty solid and the mech in general seems decent. I do fear that the AI issues will render the spec unviable. I think without a mechanic like pet swap or pet revival via merge, it is going to be tricky to find the balance between the mech's power level, the mech's survivability, and the cooldown punishment on resummomi it. Giving it a breakbar seems almost necessary to give it half a chance since Mechanist is so naked without that mech, but if the Mech is too strong, it can easily be a really unfun spec to fight against if you remove a lot of the counterplay. I only play Engi to troll in WvW, but will probably pick up the class some more. Not my favorite class fantasy but the animations are absolutely gorgeous, and I am a sucker for good animations. I would say that overall, these were the most interesting of the e batches of elite specs. But hey, my feelings may change once we actually get to play them.

Yeah that is my feeling too. The spec doesn't look bad to me by any means and there are parts of it that I think are kinda cool, but it does feel disappointing to have the same 3 untamed pet skills regardless of pet. Obviously making 3 unique skills per pet or family would be too much, but it would be a perfect opportunity to make it archetype-specific. It would make it feel more customizable and increase build and role diversity which IMO would be a huge plus to the e-spec.