Separate Not So Secret Dive from Dive Master please

[Chichimec.9364]

Some folks like challenges, some don't. The OP's suggestion sounds to me like an excellent way to offer something to both groups.

As for me personally, I had all the other 37 dive points for more than a year before I finally got the the Not So Secret one. The jp itself was far too difficult for me and I never got anywhere near the dive point on my own. So I just figured I'd never get the achievement. Then one day, while I was doing something else on that map, a mesmer announced that they were portaling people up to the dive point if anyone needed it. I figured what the heck and headed that way. The first time I dived I promptly died, so I went back, got portaled again, and this time stayed on the platform while I googled for some guidance on how to do the dive. Iirc, Dulfy had something that showed me exactly where to stand to make the dive and I succeeded on my second attempt. (Ah, I still miss Dulfy. Yes, there are other folks putting out excellent guides. Jen and AyinMaiden, I'm looking at you.  🙂 Dulfy was my go to for a long, long time though. ❤️)

So yes, I already have the achievement and I know the dive itself isn't hard if you know what to do. Still, I like the idea of separating that dive from the other 37, to allow for both easier and harder options. Letting people choose which they prefer seems reasonable to me.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Chichimec.9364

[Flasterko.4087]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Who's "we all"? Anyone sharing your opinion? It is up to them and it always was, so seems like they've already made a decision?

And why are you suddenly avoiding the rest of the post? Is it because those are facts that don't align with your opinion? (honestly, that's the only reason I see, since "it is up to them" was always equally true).

You completely misunderstood what I wrote. I meant you, and I, and others on this thread.   

 

Come on, this is not war, we talking and it seems like you are making this into personal battle. I wanted to agree with you on some part, I dont agree with other part and wanted to make reasonable way to just move further because from that by pointing out that we really talked a lot and it is now for them to decide after YOU and I and others gave them our feedback. If I responded on every part of that post you will quote me with your opinion which is obvious it will not change either so we would discuss this until eternity. 

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

You completely misunderstood what I wrote. I meant you, and I, and others on this thread.   

Ok, I did misunderstand that 😄

[Flasterko.4087]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, I did misunderstand that 😄

Thank you for telling honestly. I truly respect that.

[Randulf.7614]

Given the technical hurdles of how the game is coded, it wouldn’t surprise me if they couldn’t remove it without breaking something for those having ticked it off.

I agree it shouldn’t exist in the set, but it is likely not to be removable - if not for technical reasons, then because it would be unfair to those who have done it.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I agree it shouldn’t exist in the set, but it is likely not to be removable - if not for technical reasons, then because it would be unfair to those who have done it.

I know some people feel this way. Clearly some have expressed themselves in this thread.

That's why I waited until completing it to make this thread. I'm one person who has completed it and wouldn't mind if future players don't. But I'm only one person.

I've never been of the "well if we survived the hazing, the newbies should, too" persuasion.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I agree it shouldn’t exist in the set, but it is likely not to be removable - if not for technical reasons, then because it would be unfair to those who have done it.

I fail to see what would be unfair in separating that single dive into its own achievement (the same way any other post-launch dives are).

[AgentMoore.9453]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I've never been of the "well if we survived the hazing, the newbies should, too" persuasion.

Man, me either. I can't tell you how many times I see a thread asking innocently for some small improvement in accessibility or efficiency that gets beaten to a pulp by people who can't handle the thought of someone else getting the same thing in a different or more sensible way. It's like being angry about GPS in cars because you had to struggle with a paper map back in your day. Silliness; you both still got where you were trying to go and cars didn't get invalidated in the process.

GW2 has some pretty serious issues, but harmless QoL tweaks like separating out challenging achievements are absolutely a move in the right direction. At its age, curating the game seems pretty important for player retention. They can start with things like cleaning up the achievement categories and then tackle the bigger things (like the myth of season one and the unclear packaging of LW content at time of initial purchase).

Game's not gonna get any better without change.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Man, me either. I can't tell you how many times I see a thread asking innocently for some small improvement in accessibility or efficiency that gets beaten to a pulp by people who can't handle the thought of someone else getting the same thing in a different or more sensible way. It's like being angry about GPS in cars because you had to struggle with a paper map back in your day. Silliness; you both still got where you were trying to go and cars didn't get invalidated in the process.

GW2 has some pretty serious issues, but harmless QoL tweaks like separating out challenging achievements are absolutely a move in the right direction. At its age, curating the game seems pretty important for player retention. They can start with things like cleaning up the achievement categories and then tackle the bigger things (like the myth of season one and the unclear packaging of LW content at time of initial purchase).

Game's not gonna get any better without change.

The disconnect here  is that this  content is an achievement.  It's supposed to  make you play the game and do it well.  This isn't a clunky system that needs to be changed where  the  improvement would make everyone's lives better.   This is about  devaluing the achievement people already have because a few can't achieve the same thing.

[AgentMoore.9453]

4 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

This is about  devaluing the achievement people already have because a few can't achieve the same thing.

A'ight, but say next Tuesday the patch notes read:

> Uncoupled the Not So Secret diving goggles from the Dive Master achievement. This jump now has its own achievement worth 5 points in the exploration category.

What got devalued in that scenario? If you've already done this jump (or find it easy), nothing changes for you. You still have the same amount of AP as the person who does the other, more basic jumps and then goes and does Not So Secret - or you have more AP than the person who does the basic jumps but decides against doing the harder one. I guess I just don't see who loses by making a change like this.

[Sobx.1758]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I fail to see what would be unfair in separating that single dive into its own achievement (the same way any other post-launch dives are).

I fail to see what's unfair about not separating that single dive from the current dive master achievement.

15 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Game's not gonna get any better without change.

Games also don't automatically "get better" whenever you just aim at making it easier, so not sure why you're trying to use it as an argument here.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I fail to see what's unfair about not separating that single dive from the current dive master achievement.

I fail how is that relevant to the point raised. I wasn't the one talking about unfairness after all. @Randulf.7614 was, so it's on him/her to justify why it is so. Not to me to justify something completely different, which i never even claimed in the first place.

[Astralporing.1957]

24 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Games also don't automatically "get better" whenever you just aim at making it easier, so not sure why you're trying to use it as an argument here.

Indeed, change is never a guarantee of making things better. Preventing change on basis of "we've had it bad and so everyone else should have it bad as well" however ensures things will stay bad.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I fail to see what would be unfair in separating that single dive into its own achievement (the same way any other post-launch dives are).

Exactly.  Give those who've done it the extra AP for having completed it, and they now have AP that those who didn't do it don't have.  Sure, they could say, "Don't give me extra AP because I'd rather the players who didn't do NSS didn't get any dive AP.", but that would be biting off one's nose to spite one's face.

[AgentMoore.9453]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Games also don't automatically "get better" whenever you just aim at making it easier, so not sure why you're trying to use it as an argument here.

Probably because that's not my argument (although offering different modes of challenge probably would improve some aspects of the game that are currently out of development because only a tiny sniff of players actually play them). Uncoupling this dive from the others doesn't make anything easier. Even uncoupled, you'd still have to do all the dives to get all the rewards. The goal here is to separate basic challenges from more extreme ones, not dumb down the difficulty (or availability) of the challenges themselves.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:19 AM, AgentMoore.9453 said:

A'ight, but say next Tuesday the patch notes read:

> Uncoupled the Not So Secret diving goggles from the Dive Master achievement. This jump now has its own achievement worth 5 points in the exploration category.

What got devalued in that scenario? If you've already done this jump (or find it easy), nothing changes for you. You still have the same amount of AP as the person who does the other, more basic jumps and then goes and does Not So Secret - or you have more AP than the person who does the basic jumps but decides against doing the harder one. I guess I just don't see who loses by making a change like this.

That's actually not possible by a few historical examples of ANet tweaking the achievemetns post launch of a set of content.  The last time ANet had to do something with achievements because they were bugged, they had to add an entirely new achievement set and add the other set to historical or as their own thing after finishing it.  What this would mean is that there'd be a new dive-master achievement that includes all core tyria dives except that one.  This also rewards a mastery point, the jump literally isn't actually that difficult if you stop and think about what you're going to do before you do it.

Now I will admit that  there's nothing in the dive master achievement that gets you quite as ready for the Aetherblade one, but I don't believe that's a reason to remove it as a requirement as, since that Jumping Puzzle, there's been plenty more opportunity to  practice dives in more difficult dive spots throughout the expansions and living world.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Sobx.1758]

21 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Indeed, change is never a guarantee of making things better. Preventing change on basis of "we've had it bad and so everyone else should have it bad as well" however ensures things will stay bad.

Sure, but that's not the only "reason" it doesn't need to be changed and he's solely focusing on trying to claim that's some main argument here (or "in many other threads"), but it isn't. It's more of the whole idea about the achievements suddenly needing to strictly hold the difficulty line of their requirements absolutely flat is false and has nothing to do with reality (or claims about it somehow being "bad design"). You can manouver in mid-air, you can succeed on the first try without preparation or some tricks some people claim are needed here. But if you don't succeed at the first try, it doesn't suddenly make it undoable "too hard for mastery point" or "in need of change".

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

15 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Probably because that's not my argument

Ok, considering the context of your whole post there, it seemed like that's all you were talking about. (except for the part with LW packaging, which -while true- has nothing to do with this thread)

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(although offering different modes of challenge probably would improve some aspects of the game that are currently out of development because only a tiny sniff of players actually play them). Uncoupling this dive from the others doesn't make anything easier. Even uncoupled, you'd still have to do all the dives to get all the rewards. The goal here is to separate basic challenges from more extreme ones, not dumb down the difficulty (or availability) of the challenges themselves.

Soo what's the plan here? 9 ap for 37 dives, 1 ap for that 1 dive and another cumulative achievement that needs both of these completed for a mastery point?

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sure, but that's not the only "reason" it doesn't need to be changed and he's solely focusing on trying to claim that's some main argument here (or "in many other threads"), but it isn't.

Oh, really? Keeping things the way they were "just because" do seem to be the dominant "argument" here.

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's more of the whole idea about the achievements suddenly needing to strictly hold the difficulty line of their requirements absolutely flat is false and has nothing to do with reality (or claims about it somehow being "bad design").

Again, that's not the argument being raised. I have already explained this more than once in this very thread so i have no idea why you still keep intentionally misrepresenting things. No, the argument is that if almost all the achievement is already relatively flat, having one single element massively stand out is bad design.

As i have mentioned before, it would not be a problem if the achievement covered all the range of jumps from very easy to Not So Secret being at the very top, but it does not do so. It has 37 very easy jumps, and a single one that is on completely different level.

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You can manouver in mid-air, you can succeed on the first try without preparation or some tricks some people claim are needed here.

Riiight. The same way you can drop an ultra-rare infusion on first Gerent kill. Manouvering in mid-air doesn't matter all that much. The things that can kill you there are for the most part invisible anyway (and not only due to the holographic ceiling trying its very best to block your sight). Generally, that jump, if done the normal way (without tricks) is 99% luck, 1% skill and experience.

Notice, btw, that the reason why the "dodge backwards" trick works, is because it lets you evade a mostly invisible part of scenery that otherwise would usually kill you on your way down.

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But if you don't succeed at the first try, it doesn't suddenly make it undoable "too hard for mastery point" or "in need of change".

Sure. There's nothing sudden about realizing that this one jump is on vastly different level than the other 37 ones. It's a result of years of experience of many, many people trying it out, after all.

And you claiming that everything is fine because you did it on the first try is basically the same case as someone dropping that Gerent infusion on first kill and then claiming that it's not rare at all.

[Sobx.1758]

34 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, really? Keeping things the way they were "just because" do seem to be the dominant "argument" here.

But it's not, there's just no good reason for making the change in the first place, where all it seems to be is "make the achievement/s easier". If there's no reason to change it (because "make it easier" isn't one, even moreso when this is not some insanely hard task), then... there's just no reason to change it.

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No, the argument is that if almost all the achievement is already relatively flat, having one single element massively stand out is bad design.

The jump itself doesn't really "massively stand out". When was the last time you've tried it? 😛 

34 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Riiight. The same way you can drop an ultra-rare infusion on first Gerent kill. Manouvering in mid-air doesn't matter all that much.

No, it's not even remotely true, since getting or not getting the ultra-rare drop is purely luck based and the other isn't. Manouvering in mid-air DOES matter here and lets you adjust to avoid the obstacles in a rather straightfoward way.

34 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Generally, that jump, if done the normal way (without tricks) is 99% luck, 1% skill and experience.

No, that is false. Are you sure you don't just misremember things since last time you did it was -possibly- in the more distant past?

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

36 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But it's not, there's just no good reason for making the change in the first place, where all it seems to be is "make the achievement/s easier". If there's no reason to change it (because "make it easier" isn't one, even moreso when this is not some insanely hard task), then... there's just no reason to change it.

"No reason for making the change" is a completely different argument than the "that's not the only "reason" it doesn't need to be changed" thing you brought up before. Like i said, the only argument i can see being used is "hey, it was always this bad, no need to change it".

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The jump itself doesn't really "massively stand out". When was the last time you've tried it? 😛 

Yesterday.

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No, it's not even remotely true, since getting or not getting the ultra-rare drop is purely luck based and the other isn't. Manouvering in mid-air DOES matter here and lets you adjust to avoid the obstacles in a rather straightfoward way.

Not when you don't see the obstacles.

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No, that is false. Are you sure you don't just misremember things since last time you did it was -possibly- in the more distant past?

Yes. It's as bad today as it was originally. Except, of course, now the gear forward-jump pads in the jp are bugged, which makes getting to the jump point more difficult (but hey, they were bugged for few years already, so i guess you'd see no problem there as well).

Edited November 7, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"No reason for making the change" is a completely different argument than the "that's not the only "reason" it doesn't need to be changed" thing you brought up before. Like i said, the only argument i can see being used is "hey, it was always this bad, no need to change it".

No, "there's no reason to change it in the first place" is also an argument against changing it. Because if there's not reason to change it then... there's no reason to change it.

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Yesterday.

Then you're doing something awfully wrong, I guess. Point camera in the direction you're moving (which is downwards btw 😄 ) and use movement keys to adjust the path you need to be on.

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Not when you don't see the obstacles.

You only don't see them through the initial holographic rock, then you do. If there are some "invisible obstacles" on the way, then it should be in a bug section to etiher remove them or make them visible.

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Yes. It's as bad today as it was originally.

Weird. Based on my experience, I strongly disagree.

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Except, of course, now the gear forward-jump pads in the jp are bugged, which makes getting to the jump point more difficult (but hey, they were bugged for few years already, so i guess you'd see no problem there as well).

Fixing bugs is fixing bugs, but great strawman in an effort to pretend it's anything remotely close to what I say.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[AgentMoore.9453]

8 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

there's nothing in the dive master achievement that gets you quite as ready for the Aetherblade one, but I don't believe that's a reason to remove it as a requirement

And yet, this is precisely why others feel it should be removed and given its own achievement. When someone does all of those other jumps and then realizes they're not able to complete the last one because of the leap (hahA! puns!) in difficulty, it's a bad moment for players who had otherwise been enjoying working on that goal. This is an achievement in Core Tyria. It's goofy that that kind of rampless disparity in challenge appears that early in the game. We'll probably disagree about that until the sun burns out, but that's okay.

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Soo what's the plan here? 9 ap for 37 dives, 1 ap for that 1 dive and another cumulative achievement that needs both of these completed for a mastery point?

8 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

The last time ANet had to do something with achievements because they were bugged, they had to add an entirely new achievement set and add the other set to historical or as their own thing after finishing it.  What this would mean is that there'd be a new dive-master achievement that includes all core tyria dives except that one.  This also rewards a mastery point

I do love it when you guys answer each other; really takes the weight off my shoulders. But basically yes, unless they find another workaround they'd have to retire the current achievement in order to uncouple this dive into two new ones (it's not rocket science; they've done this kind of thing before). My vote would be to assign the mastery point (and 13 AP) to the lion's share of the dives, and leave Not So Secret as a standalone achievement that awards 5 AP for those who feel like doing it (Dive Master currently gives 18 AP total, hence the breakdown).

There are likely other ways you could slice this (such as reserving the MP for Not So Secret), but really the goal remains the same; keeping the difficulty of the achievement more or less in line the entire way through instead of having it sharply jut up for a single jump.

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

I do love it when you guys answer each other; really takes the weight off my shoulders. But basically yes, unless they find another workaround they'd have to retire the current achievement in order to uncouple this dive into two new ones (it's not rocket science; they've done this kind of thing before). My vote would be to assign the mastery point (and 13 AP) to the lion's share of the dives, and leave Not So Secret as a standalone achievement that awards 5 AP for those who feel like doing it (Dive Master currently gives 18 AP total, hence the breakdown).

There are likely other ways you could slice this (such as reserving the MP for Not So Secret), but really the goal remains the same; keeping the difficulty of the achievement more or less in line the entire way through instead of having it sharply jut up for a single jump.

Maybe if you stopped trying so hard with your sarcastic takes, you wouldn't forget that what I wrote was in response to this: "Uncoupling this dive from the others doesn't make anything easier."

Considering this is pretty obviously a complaint related to getting that mastery point, that IS making it easier, which goes against what you previously claimed and also why I responded the way I did ("reserving mp for not so secret" obviously also makes it easier, because suddenly it becomes a mastery point for 1 dive instead of 38).

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[AgentMoore.9453]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"Uncoupling this dive from the others doesn't make anything easier."

Which is still true no matter how many times you quote me.

Mechanically, Not So Secret is still the same dive with the same level of difficulty and the same overall amount of AP awarded if one chooses to partake in all available dives. If the idea of a mastery point being given for the first 37 dives horrifies you (can't fathom why), I already said it could instead be assigned to the new Not So Secret dive achievement or, going a step further, it could be added to the Not So Secret achievement and the Not So Secret achievement could be hidden until you complete the other 37 first, thus requiring you to do all of them if you want the MP.