Separate Not So Secret Dive from Dive Master please

[mercury ranique.2170]

I have to disagree it is sheer luck. But then again, it also relies on the quality of the video settings. You can adjust mid air enough to avoid obstacles. However, how much time you have to do this also has to do with the video settings and what the card can handle.

So I do think action is needed here. But please do not diminish the effort people took, so create a split in the achievement (tiers), where the not so secret dive is in an advanced tier (that is also hidden till you do all the other ones). The reward for the first tier stays as it is, but there is an additional reward for the advanced tier. Something that is fitting for the difficulty involved. (e.g. an altered version of the aetherblade goggles)

[Lacdanon.1483]

I would go the other way and add more difficult dives

[Flasterko.4087]

1 hour ago, Lacdanon.1483 said:

I would go the other way and add more difficult dives

Can you give more explanation why? What would be your goal it it? Except for "challenge". 

[DarcShriek.5829]

On 11/1/2021 at 8:04 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

By doing all dives except one that is so completely different it warrants its own special achievement.

Were you paying attention?

Maybe you’ll be surprised to know that there are 45 dive locations, but the Dive Master achievement only requires 38 of them.

If you can't do them, then you haven't mastered them.  It's not hard to understand.

[Gibson.4036]

9 hours ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

If you can't do them, then you haven't mastered them.  It's not hard to understand.

You seem to have mistaken “master” with “completionist”. 😏
 

Maybe Not So Secret could be part of Dive Grandmaster.

My suggestion is not intended to make things easier. It’s to make the achievement cohesive. Right now one dive stands out so extremely different than all 37 other dives that it upstages them and makes the achievement about that one dive.

Its like finding that to complete your island in Animal Crossing you need to defeat Ornstein and Smough.

[Gibson.4036]

On 11/2/2021 at 10:52 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

All you had to do was to do it before Not So Secret was introduced. Everyone that already had the title by then retained it when that dive was added to the achievement. I'm quite sure there are still some Dive Masters left that never made that one jump.

Don’t tell the poster that wants Vanilla GW2 servers. 😁

[mythical.6315]

14 hours ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

Can you give more explanation why? What would be your goal it it? Except for "challenge". 

That’s like:

Person A: I’m going to go play a new elite spec.

Person B: Can you give more explanation why? What would be your goal it it? Except for "fun”.

Edited November 4, 2021 by mythical.6315

[DarcShriek.5829]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

You seem to have mistaken “master” with “completionist”. 😏
 

Maybe Not So Secret could be part of Dive Grandmaster.

My suggestion is not intended to make things easier. It’s to make the achievement cohesive. Right now one dive stands out so extremely different than all 37 other dives that it upstages them and makes the achievement about that one dive.

Its like finding that to complete your island in Animal Crossing you need to defeat Ornstein and Smough.

Nope, I most definitely not confused the two words.  pleas stop accusing me of being ignorant.

[Gibson.4036]

8 hours ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

Nope, I most definitely not confused the two words.  pleas stop accusing me of being ignorant.

I see my comment was not taken in the lighthearted way it was intended, in spite of the emoji I included. My apologies for the offense. I had no intent to portray you as ignorant. I have no idea who you are.

I’ll restate in a more straightforward fashion: The name “master” does not mandate “all”, and even so, is just a name.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I see my comment was not taken in the lighthearted way it was intended, in spite of the emoji I included.

Smirking emote was somehow supposed to make it lighthearted? It expresses the exact opposite of what you apparently aimed for.

5 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I’ll restate in a more straightforward fashion: The name “master” does not mandate “all”, and even so, is just a name.

The name "master" does not mandate "all", but it suggest that "it's hard!" isn't necessarily a valid argument against including content in the achievement. And if that's how you want to go about it, then the sole state of that achievement mandates all dives that are listed in said achievement. If there's a harder element in an achievement then all it means is that it's an actual achievement instead of a checklist, so trying to argue against it seems... kind of weird.

 

Yes, clearly facts are still confusing to some people, but despite that confusion they still remain being facts 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The name "master" does not mandate "all", but it suggest that "it's hard!" isn't necessarily a valid argument against including content in the achievement.

It's not. The argument is not that it is hard. The argument is that the difficulty of that single element is way out of place when compared to the difficulty of all the other 37 dives.

Quote

And if that's how you want to go about it, then the sole state of that achievement mandates all dives that are listed in said achievement. If there's a harder element in an achievement then all it means is that it's an actual achievement instead of a checklist, so trying to argue against it seems... kind of weird.

Notice, that, while indeed the achievement mandates all 38 dives today, it wasn't always so. That one dive was added to it, and those that completed the achievement before it got added were never asked to do it at all - they have that achievement listed as completed without this one specific dive. And that, after adding that dive, Anet gave up on doing this again, and instead started treating every single dive from that time on as a separate achievement.

Thus, this suggestion is nothing more than asking Anet to be consistent, and treat this  dive the same way as every other dive that was added after the game's launch. By excluding it from the original set, and moving it to its own, separate achievement.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not. The argument is not that it is hard. The argument is that the difficulty of that single element is way out of place when compared to the difficulty of all the other 37 dives.

See... you say "it's not", but then you repeat the same thing replacing "hard" with "difficulty". And why exactly should they all have the same difficulty?

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Notice, that, while indeed the achievement mandates all 38 dives today, it wasn't always so. That one dive was added to it, and those that completed the achievement before it got added were never asked to do it at all - they have that achievement listed as completed without this one specific dive. And that, after adding that dive, Anet gave up on doing this again, and instead started treating every single dive from that time on as a separate achievement.

Notice how it most probably has more to do with the technicalities than it does with whatever you'd like to suggest here by bringing it up. Generally taking away the achievements from someone because you've decided to add another point to it doesn't make much sense.

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Thus, this suggestion is nothing more than asking Anet to be consistent, and treat this  dive the same way as every other dive that was added after the game's launch. By excluding it from the original set, and moving it to its own, separate achievement.

That's great then, because they are consistent. Just because at one point they've decided to tweak the achievement by adding one more requirement doesn't mean they need to stockpile every next bit of content from new -and unrelated- zones into the same achievement. Even moreso, there's not reason to pretend that suddenly removing one jump from the achievement would make it "more consistent", because it clearly wouldn't.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Smirking emote was somehow supposed to make it lighthearted? It expresses the exact opposite of what you apparently aimed for.

 

Well then, my apologies for poor use of emojis as well. Emoji is not my native language.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Well then, my apologies for poor use of emojis as well. Emoji is not my native language.

Next time you open the list of emojis, you can hover over the one you want to use. This way you'll see that smirking emoji is indeed smirking and then decide if it conveys the emotion you wanted it to show, which in turn can lower the chance of misunderstandings like the one in this comment chain. 🙌

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Next time you open the list of emojis, you can hover over the one you want to use. This way you'll see that smirking emoji is indeed smirking and then decide if it conveys the emotion you wanted it to show, which in turn can lower the chance of misunderstandings like the one in this comment chain. 🙌

Sadly, my phone offers no such translation when picking one out.

With counseling, I hope you'll come to forgive me.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Sadly, my phone offers no such translation when picking one out.

Well, then don't use emotes you don't understand, just like you wouldn't use words you don't understand, I guess 🤷‍♂️  

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

With counseling, I hope you'll come to forgive me.

Nothing to forgive, just don't pretend your emote meant something it didn't when you were trying to ridicule someone, that's all. I believe in your ability to read basic facial expressions and I'm sure you'll be able to choose better next time 😄

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

See... you say "it's not", but then you repeat the same thing replacing "hard" with "difficulty".

Because it's not about difficulty per se, but about how out of place that single dive point is in that group. If there were other difficult dives in that group, that one would not stand out so much.

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And why exactly should they all have the same difficulty?

Generally, having an achievement consists of a group of points of very similar difficulty, and one signle exception that is vastly more difficult is a bad design.

The same way i would consider bad an achievement that would bundle together a bunch of T1 fractals and Dhuum CM. With absolutely nothing in-between.

Quote

Notice how it most probably has more to do with the technicalities than it does with whatever you'd like to suggest here by bringing it up. Generally taking away the achievements from someone because you've decided to add another point to it doesn't make much sense.

Agreed. At the same time, allowing two groups of people to have the very same achievement, when one group had to put way, way more effort into obtaining it than the other equally does not make much sense.

Quote

That's great then, because they are consistent. Just because at one point they've decided to tweak the achievement by adding one more requirement doesn't mean they need to stockpile every next bit of content from new -and unrelated- zones into the same achievement.

So, in the same sentence, you claim they are consistent, and then practically admit right away that they weren't consistent. Check.

Quote

Even moreso, there's not reason to pretend that suddenly removing one jump from the achievement would make it "more consistent", because it clearly wouldn't.

Riiiiight. So, according to you, making it more consistent would not make it more consistent. Just because. Duly noted.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Gibson.4036]

20 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, then don't use emotes you don't understand, just like you wouldn't use words you don't understand, I guess 🤷‍♂️  

Nothing to forgive, just don't pretend your emote meant something it didn't when you were trying to ridicule someone, that's all. I believe in your ability to read basic facial expressions and I'm sure you'll be able to choose better next time 😄

😘

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Because it's not about difficulty per se, but about how out of place that single dive point is in that group. If there were other difficult dives in that group, that one would not stand out so much.

So sometimes it's too difficult, while the other times it's not... Make up your mind. There's absolutely nothing out of place about a dive activity being in a dive master achievement, just because you're making some unspecified decision on the spot about what level of difficulty it should have.

Quote

Generally, having an achievement consists of a group of points of very similar difficulty, and one signle exception that is vastly more difficult is a bad design.

The same way i would consider bad an achievement that would bundle together a bunch of T1 fractals and Dhuum CM. With absolutely nothing in-between.

Nope, it's not a bad design. Achievement can group a type of activity and within those activities, they can have varying difficulty levels. There is nothing out of ordinary about it and it seems like your personal "rule" you've made up for whatever reason. This is not even some isolated thing in this or any other game. You're free to dislike it, but what you're describing here as some kind of rule or "bad design" just isn't a thing.

Fractals are fractals, raids are raids and so naturally they usually don't group their basic achievements. Dives are still dives and so, again, there's nothing out of order here, while the comparison you're trying to bring up now doesn't seem to be adequate to the situation being discussed here.

Quote

Agreed. At the same time, allowing two groups of people to have the very same achievement, when one group had to put way, way more effort into obtaining it than the other equally does not make much sense.

Soo... from what I understand, fixing any bug or adjusting any content/achievement doesn't make sense either, because then the experience people have/had between those two moments will vary. Can't say I agree, which is also why I wrote what I wrote in my previous post about it being an achievement adjustment.

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So, in the same sentence, you claim they are consistent, and then admit right away that they weren't consistent. Check.

Nope, I claim that they're consistent and then I still think that. Maybe try re-reading what I wrote.

Quote

Riiiiight. So, according to you, making it more consistent would not make it more consistent. Just because.

No, suddenly ripping parts of achievements out of the achievements doesn't somehow make it "more consistent", even moreso when your initial problem with the situation was that they already adjusted it years ago.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

On 11/3/2021 at 9:30 AM, mercury ranique.2170 said:

I have to disagree it is sheer luck.

Same. For the sake of not talking about of my kitten, I went to that jp, jumped without any preparation, manouvered a little mid air and succeeded on the first attempt. Lets not pretend people don't have some control mid-air so they need to go with some pre-planned hands-off-keyboard dodge or w/e. They don't. Can say I'm not a fan of the fake rock obstructing the view at the start of it, but that's about it.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Rogue.8235]

On 8/30/2021 at 11:07 AM, Gibson.4036 said:

It evokes the questionable pleasures of a certain 18th century Marquis named Donatien Alphonse Francois.

*snicker*  it does have the sadistic vibes  ⛓️  It can even be Mephistophelian --

On 8/30/2021 at 1:54 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

devilish dive

beat me to it...

 

[Flasterko.4087]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Same. For the sake of not talking about of my kitten, I went to that jp, jumped without any preparation, manouvered a little mid air and succeeded on the first attempt. Lets not pretend people don't have some control mid-air so they need to go with some pre-planned hands-off-keyboard dodge or w/e. They don't. Can say I'm not a fan of the fake rock obstructing the view at the start of it, but that's about it.

While you are in your exploration spirit, try to write in Google "Gw2 Not So Secret forum" or something and read how people feel about it. You can also check Youtube comments on those guides. I have done that before I made my first comment on this thread.

 

For some players also is not that jp is that much of a problem, it is that you die easily when you jump to dive so in some people minds situation is that they were trying for long time to come up and they died in that jump so they need to repeat everything again. It seems to me also that people feel like game is hurting them in this case, they don't enjoy.

 

We can argue that this is easy, good design, bad design, sadistic jp or whatever, facts are that many people feel bad about this jp and there must be a reason why. And no, people are not lazy brain-dead zombies that wants for game to carry them. 

 

I think OP made good idea for solution of this problem. Those who are good in this kind of stuff can have their own achievement for that challenge. I like how they made gold beetle achievement. Those who really like more challenge in racing can try to finish gold scarf achievement. That part to finish every race with gold is not part of basic achievement. So players who are good in racing get for reward their golden scarf which they can use to show it as some kind of trophy.  And what is also good about that, even if you just finish basic achievement you get some reward not just achievement points (you get basic scarf). 

 

When you doing your diving achievement you enjoy in those little jumps and feel happy about finding googles, you doing that for some time until you come to Not So Secret and get a cold shower. Not only that some players cant finish it, it is also that their previous work is throwed into the wind because they suddenly need to do some advanced jp and that is as it seems often part where they stuck and hope that they will find some nice mesmer to help them. 

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

While you are in your exploration spirit, try to write in Google "Gw2 Not So Secret forum" or something and read how people feel about it. You can also check Youtube comments on those guides. I have done that before I made my first comment on this thread.

My exploration nature leads me to try out content by myself, so I can have empirical evidence of what I'm talking about. I went there, commited to a blind jump (heey, even recorded it, but on a second thought for now I can't be bothered with editing out any account/character/chat/inventory/wallet details I don't want to share), proven to myself that there is control in mid-air which allows to avoid the obstacles without any earlier preparation and that's about it. Looking up forum posts with people complaining about the difficulty of anything doesn't change any of the facts I've described above, so I don't really see the point of doing what you've just advised, especially since you can find people complaining about practically anything.

3 hours ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

For some players also is not that jp is that much of a problem, it is that you die easily when you jump to dive so in some people minds situation is that they were trying for long time to come up and they died in that jump so they need to repeat everything again. It seems to me also that people feel like game is hurting them in this case, they don't enjoy.

I wouldn't have much against putting a checkpoint (similar to the ones at chalice jp) near the top of the jp. But even without that checkpoint, I still don't see a reason for that dive to be excluded from the achievement. It's far from "just being dependant on luck" or "needing specific position/technique to succeed" like some people here try to pretend.

3 hours ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

I think OP made good idea for solution of this problem.

I don't, because it's complaining about achievement being an achievement. And no, it isn't an equivalent of saying it's extremely hard, because as I said above, it isn't what some people in this thread claim it is.

[Flasterko.4087]

35 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I wouldn't have much against putting a checkpoint (similar to the ones at chalice jp) near the top of the jp.

Up to this point we all gave to Anet enough of views and feelings about this (and it is not first time this jp/achievement is discussed). It is up to them now to decide if they will do something with this Not So Secret case so I will just comment on part of your claim. 

 

Yes, to have checkpoint would also help. That could ease frustration so that can result as improvement too. 

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

Up to this point we all gave to Anet enough of views and feelings about this (and it is not first time this jp/achievement is discussed). It is up to them now to decide if they will do something with this Not So Secret case so I will just comment on part of your claim. 

 

Yes, to have checkpoint would also help. That could ease frustration so that can result as improvement too. 

Who's "we all"? Anyone sharing your opinion? It is up to them and it always was, so seems like they've already made a decision?

And why are you suddenly avoiding the rest of the post? Is it because those are facts that don't align with your opinion? (honestly, that's the only reason I see, since "it is up to them" was always equally true).