The Human Gods ranked [spoilers]

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

How do the human gods fare in terms of power level? We know it took all of the rest to strike down Abaddon, and Balthazar has on occasion boasted about being the "mightiest of the Six". The latter also forged the chains holding the former in his prison in the Realm of Torment. If we compare models (and model sizes) across Guild Wars 1 and 2, we see that Abaddon is seemingly much larger than Dhuum and the Six (Kormir and Balthazar are roughly the same size, so it's safe to assume the rest of the Six are as well).

For the sake of fun discussion, where do you Dhuum on this list? Was Abaddon the biggest and baddest, or was it his knowledge of magical secrets that lent him a hand in holding his own against his kin?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Bear in mind it took the other 5 to strip Balthazar of his powers. Grenth, who is a half deity, along with 7 mortals defeated Dhuum and imprisoned him.

So with that as reference I'd say that Dhuum is the weakest of the deities.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Bear in mind it took the other 5 to strip Balthazar of his powers. Grenth, who is a half deity, along with 7 mortals defeated Dhuum and imprisoned him.

So with that as reference I'd say that Dhuum is the weakest of the deities.

Abaddon was defeated by a party of 8 + Kormir in Guild Wars: Nightfall. It's not really that good of a meter to judge by.

Regarding the Dhuum fight: we have to keep in mind no one's been able to decisively terminate him - he's always been imprisoned. The details of that fight, in particular, are completely unknown to us. Unlike the battle between the Five True Gods and Abaddon, they didn't even leave behind terraformed and scarred landscape. It isn't that far-fetched to wager what transpired was more about cunning than raw power.

Because, as we know, it takes 10 people AND the reapers to beat him in Hall of Chains. And it's safe to say that Dhuum, like Balthazar, wasn't at the apex of his might.

Last, but not least, the legendary trinket 'Vision' has this lore attached to it:

"They killed him. Balthazar. If Lyssa ever learns of this...I don't know what she'd do—what any of them would do. They still claim benevolence, but let's hope they weren't watching too closely."

This confirms something very simple to us: the rest of the gods want to avoid killing their own kin at all costs. Whether it's due to the magical ramifications or personal attachments, that we don't know.  As for why "it took all five to strip Balthazar's powers" - very simple, it's far more difficult to imprison someone than it is to kill them. Plus, Balthazar was apparently the most apt among them when it came to forging artefacts and tools for various purposes - including "depowering" entities. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Abaddon was defeated by a party of 8 + Kormir in Guild Wars: Nightfall. It's not really that good of a meter to judge by.

Abaddon at that point was weaker than Balthazar in PoF though, and he was still chained.

18 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Regarding the Dhuum fight: we have to keep in mind no one's been able to decisively terminate him - he's always been imprisoned. The details of that fight, in particular, are completely unknown to us. Unlike the battle between the Five True Gods and Abaddon, they didn't even leave behind terraformed and scarred landscape. It isn't that far-fetched to wager what transpired was more about cunning than raw power.

Because, as we know, it takes 10 people AND the reapers to beat him in Hall of Chains. And it's safe to say that Dhuum, like Balthazar, wasn't at the apex of his might.

Last, but not least, the legendary trinket 'Vision' has this lore attached to it:

"They killed him. Balthazar. If Lyssa ever learns of this...I don't know what she'd do—what any of them would do. They still claim benevolence, but let's hope they weren't watching too closely."

This confirms something very simple to us: the rest of the gods want to avoid killing their own kin at all costs. Whether it's due to the magical ramifications or personal attachments, that we don't know.  As for why "it took all five to strip Balthazar's powers" - very simple, it's far more difficult to imprison someone than it is to kill them. Plus, Balthazar was apparently the most apt among them when it came to forging artefacts and tools for various purposes - including "depowering" entities. 

The fight with Dhuum is described within lore and in the lead up to the fight with him in GW and GW2 courtesy of the Reapers. Dhuum wasn't in some prolonged imprisoned state when Grenth defeated him.

As to Lyssa, who is to say. Perhaps they were lovers at some point, which would explain him having her mirror. I'm pretty sure that Kormir and Melandru are ambivalent about his Death.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Abaddon at that point was weaker than Balthazar in PoF though, and he was still chained.

The fight with Dhuum is described within lore and in the lead up to the fight with him in GW and GW2 courtesy of the Reapers. Dhuum wasn't in some prolonged imprisoned state when Grenth defeated him.

As to Lyssa, who is to say. Perhaps they were lovers at some point, which would explain him having her mirror. I'm pretty sure that Kormir and Melandru are ambivalent about his Death.

1) Abaddon was close to breaking free by the time the players reach him in GW1. The prisons, or gates, for his power had been all but vanquished in their entirety. Plus, it is his realm we're fighting him in. Frankly, and unlike Balthazar, Abaddon was not stripped of his title, power and claim. The Five Gods were either unwilling or unable to do so. There's not much, if anything, to imply that Balthazar, in his downtrodden state, was stronger than Abaddon before the latter's demise. He certainly could have achieved that state of being were he not stopped and killed in Joko's Sky Garden. 

2) The dialogue shared with Kormir during Path of Fire: Act 2 heavily implies it was every gods' plan to keep Balthazar specifically imprisoned instead of exposed to fatal outcomes. It appears to me in that manner, at least, anyways. She's quite annoyed / angry about Rytlock enabling his escape - because she, more likely than not, knows where that'll lead.

It's not just Lyssa who cared / cares.

3) I can no longer recall the dialogue detailing Dhuum's fall. Has there been anything aside from Grenth usurping him, and transferring his power to himself?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

1) Abaddon was close to breaking free by the time the players reach him in GW1. The prisons, or gates, for his power had been all but vanquished in their entirety. Plus, it is his realm we're fighting him in. Frankly, and unlike Balthazar, Abaddon was not stripped of his title, power and claim. The Five Gods were either unwilling or unable to do so. There's not much, if anything, to imply that Balthazar, in his downtrodden state, was stronger than Abaddon before the latter's demise. He certainly could have achieved that state of being were he not stopped and killed in Joko's Sky Garden. 

2) The dialogue shared with Kormir during Path of Fire: Act 2 heavily implies it was every gods' plan to keep Balthazar specifically imprisoned instead of exposed to fatal outcomes. It appears to me in that manner, at least, anyways. She's quite annoyed / angry about Rytlock enabling his escape - because she, more likely than not, knows where that'll lead.

It's not just Lyssa who cared / cares.

3) I can no longer recall the dialogue detailing Dhuum's fall. Has there been anything aside from Grenth usurping him, and transferring his power to himself?

You'd have to go look up on the GW wiki what the reaper's dialogs are.

[ugrakarma.9416]

by far  Balthazar,

the pre-expulsion balthazar needed all others the stripe his powers..

 

Even without divine magic, his was able to handle all sort of magical stuff with ease: reignite Sohotin, open portals, absorve entire Bloodstone magic(that last one a very unstable and dangerous magic to manipulate).

 

A divine-powerless Balthazar was a clever strategist. He easily manipulated White Mantle, and was the first to kill the commander, killed Glaust, imprisioned infantile aurene, and if wanst commander, he going to straight kill kralk with his war beast. Balthazar was a unstopable war machine, while abbadon rely too much on trickery.

Edited September 3, 2021 by ugrakarma.9416

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I can't help but feel that the differing game mechanics not just between game modes but also two separate games throws too big of a monkey wrench into any semi-objective attempt at determining which of the Human gods would be the strongest.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 9/6/2021 at 7:11 AM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I can't help but feel that the differing game mechanics not just between game modes but also two separate games throws too big of a monkey wrench into any semi-objective attempt at determining which of the Human gods would be the strongest.

We know Abaddon was the strongest (or mightiest) before his fall and imprisonment. His elite force, Horde of Darkness, was able to fight alongside him against the other gods, which is an impressive feat of power bestowal (for comparison: Elder Dragons and their champions)

However, this also has other implications: Abaddon was not strong enough to stand against the five alone (5v1). Or, in other words, the power gap wasn't as large as one could first assume. I'd imagine the same stands for Balthazar's rebellion: he had powerful elite soldiers stand by his side before he was dethroned. 

I don't see the other gods utilizing their allies in this manner, aside from perhaps Grenth. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Sir Alric.5078]

What about Dwayna? She's often described as the head of the gods, and even the self proclaimed "mightiest of the Six" Balthazar used to follow her lead. He didn't seem like someone who would listen to the words of a weakling, so that has to mean something, no? 

[draxynnic.3719]

I think Abaddon was said to be powerful enough to take on two other gods, although I don't recall if the context was more "as powerful as the next two most powerful combined" or "as powerful as the weakest two combined", or something in between.

 

Of the post-Abaddon pantheon, I think it's probably reasonable to say that Balthazar was probably the most powerful in a straight fight, and that's naturally what he's going to think about in his boasts. Dwayna and Melandru seem to have age, experience, and wisdom over the others, though, and the vastness of their domains probably means they have more influence overall than Balthazar did, it's just less suitable for direct combat.

 

55 minutes ago, Sir Alric.5078 said:

What about Dwayna? She's often described as the head of the gods, and even the self proclaimed "mightiest of the Six" Balthazar used to follow her lead. He didn't seem like someone who would listen to the words of a weakling, so that has to mean something, no? 

Probably a mix of the others following Dwayna's lead, and "don't tick off the healer".

[Teratus.2859]

Keep in mind that Dhuum was not a true god by the time we fought him in Gw1, he was similar to the state Balthazar was in during Gw2, having had most of his power stripped from him.

Grenth took most of Dhuum's power a long time ago which is how he became the God of Death and Dhuum was imprisoned much like Abaddon and Balthazar were.

In all cases of a God being defeated it is always a matter of being outnumbered.

Abaddon was ganged up on by the other Gods, imprisoned and then later killed by several powerful Heroes with the Gods support.

Dhuum was ganged up on by seven unknown heroes and Grenth, a literal Demigod of unknown power.
He was then stripped of his power and imprisoned.
Later on (Gw1) Dhuum was again ganged up on by several powerful heroes, King Frozenwind and his army  and the Seven Reapers of the Underworld (the very same seven heroes who helped defeat him originally) and was imprisoned yet again.
After breaking free yet again (Gw2) Dhuum was once more ganged up on by the same Seven Reapers who already have 2 wins on him, several heroes from Tyria including the Commander and Desmina, Grenth's First Priestess and was once more imprisoned only this time in a far more powerful prison than he had been previously.

Balthazar was first ganged up on by the other Gods similarly to Abaddon and was stripped of his power and imprisoned.
He was then later ganged up on and killed by Aurine a powerful baby crystal dragon and descendant of an Elder Dragon, The Commander who was also wielding Sohothin one of Balthazar's own God relics and Kralkatorik.. a majorly peeved off, colossal walking mountain of an Elder Dragon..

As you can see, every case of a God being defeated has been via a situation where the God has been overwhelmed by numbers and in some cases even being overpowered.

[adormtil.1605]

I would not say last time Balthazaar was ganged on by Kralkatorik that elder dragon attacked everyone including the commander and Aurene. 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, adormtil.1605 said:

I would not say last time Balthazaar was ganged on by Kralkatorik that elder dragon attacked everyone including the commander and Aurene. 

The impression I had in that fight is that Kralkatorrik was targeting Balthazar, his attacks being a threat to the Commander as well was basically collateral damage. Hard to tell what Kralkatorrik was really thinking at the time, though, particularly since Kralkatorrik's sane personality hadn't been in control of his body in a long time.

 

It's telling, though, that in our previous fight with Balthazar, he was literally toying with us until Aurene arrived. It's really obvious if you get downed by him before the scripted end of the fight - he'll revive you himself with a comment along the lines of 'I'm not finished with you yet'.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Frankly, it seems to me that a God's power has everything to do with how much they personally are willing to use and how they use it (And how much collateral they wish to avoid), and apart from that they're all equal.

 

Like as a theoretical example. It took all five Gods to beat Abaddon not because Abaddon was flat out more powerful than five of them combined, but because Abaddon was using his full power whilst the others were limiting themselves because they outnumbered/wished to avoid as much collateral as possible (Even though it didn't really work).

 

So on a pure power scale, my assumption is they're all equal. But when you start factoring in their personalities and inclinations:

 

Balthazar --> Kormir = Grenth --> Lyssa = Melandru = Dwayna

 

That might have changed with whoever replaced Balthazar mind, but my assumption is that the 'God of Challenge' will always be willing to throw down more than others.

Edited September 8, 2021 by ThatOddOne.4387

[Balor.8432]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:08 PM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

1) Abaddon was close to breaking free by the time the players reach him in GW1. The prisons, or gates, for his power had been all but vanquished in their entirety. Plus, it is his realm we're fighting him in. Frankly, and unlike Balthazar, Abaddon was not stripped of his title, power and claim. The Five Gods were either unwilling or unable to do so. There's not much, if anything, to imply that Balthazar, in his downtrodden state, was stronger than Abaddon before the latter's demise. He certainly could have achieved that state of being were he not stopped and killed in Joko's Sky Garden. 

2) The dialogue shared with Kormir during Path of Fire: Act 2 heavily implies it was every gods' plan to keep Balthazar specifically imprisoned instead of exposed to fatal outcomes. It appears to me in that manner, at least, anyways. She's quite annoyed / angry about Rytlock enabling his escape - because she, more likely than not, knows where that'll lead.

It's not just Lyssa who cared / cares.

3) I can no longer recall the dialogue detailing Dhuum's fall. Has there been anything aside from Grenth usurping him, and transferring his power to himself?

He wasn't close to breaking free, he only had 3 of his 8 chains broken according to gw1 lore.  Their was 8 gates keeping him chained and he managed only to break 3. GW1 map. It wasn't his realm either it was his jail made by the other gods.  Even in the gw1 fight you can still see chains on him  Picture.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:42 AM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

How do the human gods fare in terms of power level?

According to human belief, the Six Gods are "omnipotent in their specific domain". Which means that Balthazar is the ultimate power in combat, Abaddon/Kormir in knowledge, Grenth/Dhuum in death (which may be why Dhuum "could not be killed" by Grenth).

It isn't strictly so that it took all five gods to take down Abaddon, but simply that Abaddon was capable of overpowering two - not because he's stronger, either. Could simply be that he knew the best tactics to use against any god and could handle any two pairings of gods - but the more opponents you have at the same time, the trickier outwitting them becomes if you can't keep up physically.

As such, I don't think we can adequately give them a ranking. Because if it is true that they're the best at their domain, then Balthazar/his successor/his predecessor would be the direct combat strongest, but wouldn't be able to kill ultimate life (Dwayna) or ultimate death (Dhuum/Grenth), and would be outsmarted many times over by ultimate knowledge (Abaddon's predecessor/Abaddon/Kormir), but that also doesn't mean Balthazar would be incapable of overpowering them. E.g., he could "defeat" Dhuum and Dwayna, but never "kill" them. It'd basically end up a stalemate, victory through capture, or Balthazar's eventual loss through depleted stamina.

On 9/3/2021 at 8:42 AM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

If we compare models (and model sizes) across Guild Wars 1 and 2, we see that Abaddon is seemingly much larger than Dhuum and the Six (Kormir and Balthazar are roughly the same size, so it's safe to assume the rest of the Six are as well).

Model size isn't very good estimate. Kormir is human-sized in GW1 with no changes in power, while Dhuum changes appearance completely. Lyssa and Dwayna both disguised themselves as humans and mingled, but other depictions show them towering over humans. And with Abaddon - he lost his original body and was creating a new one. Balthazar, meanwhile, was stripped of his divine powers by GW2's time so he wasn't a god then at all.

On 9/3/2021 at 2:25 PM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Abaddon was defeated by a party of 8 + Kormir in Guild Wars: Nightfall. It's not really that good of a meter to judge by.

On 9/3/2021 at 2:48 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Abaddon at that point was weaker than Balthazar in PoF though, and he was still chained.

On 9/3/2021 at 3:08 PM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

1) Abaddon was close to breaking free by the time the players reach him in GW1. The prisons, or gates, for his power had been all but vanquished in their entirety. Plus, it is his realm we're fighting him in. Frankly, and unlike Balthazar, Abaddon was not stripped of his title, power and claim. The Five Gods were either unwilling or unable to do so. There's not much, if anything, to imply that Balthazar, in his downtrodden state, was stronger than Abaddon before the latter's demise. He certainly could have achieved that state of being were he not stopped and killed in Joko's Sky Garden.

On this, Varesh had only broken 3 of the 8 seals on Abaddon's power. Abaddon was "close" to breaking free, but not close to full power. It's unclear how the seals function - whether each seal halved Abaddon's power each time, or whether they sealed an equal amount of power, or some other method - but he wouldn't have even been at half power because of those five still-intact seals.

That said, the party was also blessed by the other five gods' avatars, so they weren't just your run of the mill powerful mortals like Dragon's Watch (or Commander pre-S3) at the time either. They were powerful mortals blessed by a god for duration of that one battle.

And rather than "8+Kormir", the implication is that all the heroes and henchmen were there for the fight lorewise, though mechanically parties are capped at 8. There were 14 heroes and 9 henchmen, plus the PC, and then finally Kormir. So lorewise, it likely would've been 35 god-blessed mortals versus a god who was at most 3/8ths of his full might.

 

That said, I would argue GW1-era Abaddon is far stronger than GW2-era Balthazar or Dhuum. Abaddon was capable of influencing Tyria with all eight seals on restricting his power, though only at places of demonic incursions (Dragon Festival, the attacks on Kamadan, Lion's Arch, and Kaineng Center) or places with Mist portals (Tomb of the Primeval Kings) and in very limited, temporary nature in the former case at that. But he was creating long-lasting influences with just two seals removed as seen throughout The Desolation, which remains tainted with his magic (albeit reduced) in GW2 still.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 5:50 PM, adormtil.1605 said:

I would not say last time Balthazaar was ganged on by Kralkatorik that elder dragon attacked everyone including the commander and Aurene. 

While I'd agree with Drax that Kralkatorrik was likely targeting Balthazar (who was injuring him) and the Commander was taking collateral damage, keep in mind that by GW2's time, Balthazar is not a god at all. And he was still fighting 2v1v1.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:

He wasn't close to breaking free, he only had 3 of his 8 chains broken according to gw1 lore.  Their was 8 gates keeping him chained and he managed only to break 3. GW1 map. It wasn't his realm either it was his jail made by the other gods.  Even in the gw1 fight you can still see chains on him  Picture.

The Realm of Torment was both his realm and his jail. They imrprisoned him in the heart of his own domain.

Same seems to be the case with Balthazar, as the cinematic showing Rytlock and Balthazar meeting in the Mists is very reminiscent of the Temple of War in the Fissure of Woe with the hanging chains, ashen air, and everything.

[adormtil.1605]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

While I'd agree with Drax that Kralkatorrik was likely targeting Balthazar (who was injuring him) and the Commander was taking collateral damage, keep in mind that by GW2's time, Balthazar is not a god at all. And he was still fighting 2v1v1.

Yeah but it is not as good of a feat of fighting 3 vs 1. By the way does having a god weapon gives a power boost? I remember that we beat Rythlock and his fellow tribune while Rythlock held the god sword.  

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, adormtil.1605 said:

Yeah but it is not as good of a feat of fighting 3 vs 1. By the way does having a god weapon gives a power boost? I remember that we beat Rythlock and his fellow tribune while Rythlock held the god sword.  

Balthazar was the one in the middle. Kralkatorrik wasn't cooperating with the other two, but they were all aiming at Balthazar.

 

A better counter to that argument is that he wasn't fighting all three at the same time. Aurene was imprisoned in (and being used as the power source of) the war machine Balthazar was using to trap and fight Kralkatorrik. When the machine was destroyed and both Aurene and Balthazar emerged, Kralkatorrik backed off (but not so far that he couldn't swoop in for that tasty, tasty magic released by Balthazar's death.

 

With Sohothin - we've never seen Rytlock use the same power we used, which is...interesting to say the least. A bit of a plothole, really, since unless that was a one-off powerup, Rytlock seems to be withholding a weapon that makes the Commander significantly more powerful, but which Rytlock pretty much uses as a regular sword, out of pride and jealousy.

[adormtil.1605]

I think he did use powers from Sohothin in icebrood saga. But even so I think what attacks came from Sohothin in our fight with Balthazzar where mechanic and probably if we ever play as Rythlock he will have them also.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, adormtil.1605 said:

I think he did use powers from Sohothin in icebrood saga. But even so I think what attacks came from Sohothin in our fight with Balthazzar where mechanic and probably if we ever play as Rythlock he will have them also.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that was Crecia (and later Crecia and Efram) using Sohothin as a focusing device and amplifier. And still not really as impressive as what we were getting out of it.

 

If we do get to play as Rytlock sometime, we might get to see what he's really capable of when the devs aren't worried about overshadowing the PC (similar to how Caithe is a lot more powerful in the S2 story instances than anywhere else). At the moment, though, it certainly does feel like Rytlock is being possessive over a human artifact that someone else can get more out of than he can.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 9/9/2021 at 4:59 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

According to human belief, the Six Gods are "omnipotent in their specific domain". Which means that Balthazar is the ultimate power in combat, Abaddon/Kormir in knowledge, Grenth/Dhuum in death (which may be why Dhuum "could not be killed" by Grenth).

It isn't strictly so that it took all five gods to take down Abaddon, but simply that Abaddon was capable of overpowering two - not because he's stronger, either. Could simply be that he knew the best tactics to use against any god and could handle any two pairings of gods - but the more opponents you have at the same time, the trickier outwitting them becomes if you can't keep up physically.

As such, I don't think we can adequately give them a ranking. Because if it is true that they're the best at their domain, then Balthazar/his successor/his predecessor would be the direct combat strongest, but wouldn't be able to kill ultimate life (Dwayna) or ultimate death (Dhuum/Grenth), and would be outsmarted many times over by ultimate knowledge (Abaddon's predecessor/Abaddon/Kormir), but that also doesn't mean Balthazar would be incapable of overpowering them. E.g., he could "defeat" Dhuum and Dwayna, but never "kill" them. It'd basically end up a stalemate, victory through capture, or Balthazar's eventual loss through depleted stamina.

Model size isn't very good estimate. Kormir is human-sized in GW1 with no changes in power, while Dhuum changes appearance completely. Lyssa and Dwayna both disguised themselves as humans and mingled, but other depictions show them towering over humans. And with Abaddon - he lost his original body and was creating a new one. Balthazar, meanwhile, was stripped of his divine powers by GW2's time so he wasn't a god then at all.

On this, Varesh had only broken 3 of the 8 seals on Abaddon's power. Abaddon was "close" to breaking free, but not close to full power. It's unclear how the seals function - whether each seal halved Abaddon's power each time, or whether they sealed an equal amount of power, or some other method - but he wouldn't have even been at half power because of those five still-intact seals.

That said, the party was also blessed by the other five gods' avatars, so they weren't just your run of the mill powerful mortals like Dragon's Watch (or Commander pre-S3) at the time either. They were powerful mortals blessed by a god for duration of that one battle.

And rather than "8+Kormir", the implication is that all the heroes and henchmen were there for the fight lorewise, though mechanically parties are capped at 8. There were 14 heroes and 9 henchmen, plus the PC, and then finally Kormir. So lorewise, it likely would've been 35 god-blessed mortals versus a god who was at most 3/8ths of his full might.

 

That said, I would argue GW1-era Abaddon is far stronger than GW2-era Balthazar or Dhuum. Abaddon was capable of influencing Tyria with all eight seals on restricting his power, though only at places of demonic incursions (Dragon Festival, the attacks on Kamadan, Lion's Arch, and Kaineng Center) or places with Mist portals (Tomb of the Primeval Kings) and in very limited, temporary nature in the former case at that. But he was creating long-lasting influences with just two seals removed as seen throughout The Desolation, which remains tainted with his magic (albeit reduced) in GW2 still.

 

While I'd agree with Drax that Kralkatorrik was likely targeting Balthazar (who was injuring him) and the Commander was taking collateral damage, keep in mind that by GW2's time, Balthazar is not a god at all. And he was still fighting 2v1v1.

 

 

What I meant by [8 players / heroes / henchmen + Kormir] was precisely this: the party size restrictions aren't necessarily an accurate gauge for a boss in terms of ability and power - plus, we have no idea how Guild Wars 2 characters compare to their "ancestors". For all we know, they could even be a bit weaker - or stronger, who knows.

I actually didn't recall only 3 chains being broken, good catch on that. 

Personally, I also don't think the claim of Abaddon being the "mightiest" of the gods is a testament to his raw destructive capability (versus, per say, Balthazar); I think it implies he was the most strategically and magically apt of the Six at the time. Now, what does this imply, then? As you pointed out, he probably knew of the other gods' weaknesses (if there are any), and how to best approach them in battle (both strategically and in single combat).

We have to remember: 1) Abaddon was the one who haphazardly gifted mortals with magic, and 2) he was formerly called the god of knowledge and water. Not secrets, knowledge. Which ties in with the previous point regarding his battle prowess.

Agreed on imprisoned Abaddon being stronger than Dhuum or Balthazar (by the time of Guild Wars 2). The latter was effectively (and I believe it was even stated somewhere?) a demi-god at the time, and Dhuum relied heavily on Abaddon in his plans to free himself - I don't think their armies converged at Realm of Torment for strategical reasons, alone. It's also because Abaddon - and, by extent, his realm - are easily at their most potent (versus Fissure of Woe and Underworld controlled by Dhuum's forces) at the time. 

[draxynnic.3719]

If you go into the Eye of the North instance you get from linking accounts, one of the ghosts there mentions that the skills that the GW2 character has are more powerful than the GW1-era skills. Which makes sense - mechanically, there are spells with significant recharge in GW1 which are autoattacks in GW2, and fluffwise, magic is stronger in GW2's time than in GW1's time, so skills powered by GW2 magic are likely to be stronger than in GW1.

[Bristingr.5034]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:57 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Bear in mind it took the other 5 to strip Balthazar of his powers. Grenth, who is a half deity, along with 7 mortals defeated Dhuum and imprisoned him.

So with that as reference I'd say that Dhuum is the weakest of the deities.

Yet Balthazar was also defeated by a mortal and a baby dragon...