Controversial opinion but I think power and condition should be removed from gear

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Depends on how that system would work. Notice, how GW1 system did exactly what OP asked for, while being as good if not better at allowing players choice and creativity.

 

I'm still sad they decided to add stats to gear in order to placate traditional MMORPG players, instead of following the GW1 design.

 

Unfortunately for OP, i just don't see Anet doing big enough to matter stat/traitline rework at this point in the game's history.

GW1 is different though because there's no equivalent to traits. Each profession's major attribute gives 1 additional effect (like elementalists gaining extra energy or mesmers having a faster cast time) and very occasionally a secondary attribute will also have an extra effect (like beast mastery increasing ranger pet damage) but that's it. Also each skill is tied to 1 specific attribute, so making a build is basically a matter of choosing the skills you want to use and then putting points into the appropriate attributes, or choosing attributes to focus on and choosing skills that use them.

 

It's a much simpler system and there's no equivalent of the trade-off we saw in the early years of GW2 where you often had to choose between getting the attributes which were best for your skills and making do with less desirable traits or choosing traits and then trying to find useful skills which work with the attributes they gave you. At most you might have to settle for not using all the skills you want in the same build because it would spread your points over too many attributes, limiting the strength of all of them (you can do it of course, but it's unlikely to be any good).

 

I suppose one option would be to separate the three, so you choose your traits, then choose attributes separately (with an equivalent points system so you can't just max them all out), but given there's only 3 armour weights in GW2 and other that stats and the armour rating the only benefit they give is the bonuses from runes and those are already independent to the actual armour pieces I'm not sure that would be functionally any different to the system we have now.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Danikat.8537

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

I'm scared to check my notifications tomorrow but I gotta say it. I think Power and condition should be baked into the traits, it'd allow Anet to balance several specs across the board and would also allow gear sets to be reworked with more focus. Likewise, they could fine tune specs more because there's less fragmentization of gear.

 

Sure you do less healing or less crit but focusing on support or DPS wouldn't be so heavy. Power and condition causes a lot of confusion, and some people have terrible build stats while others don't play what they want because they feel they need a perfect stat set. In my opinion, it makes the game more customizable you can play power or condi, and swap based on build and not gear. As a bonus you get a reason to sell those silly build slots

 

 

The game is not balanced around that in the slightest. From PvE to WvW to PvP. I applaud you for having the courage to post your idea, but you are not going to get any positive feedback on it.

[Cyninja.2954]

Okay, so I had some time to mule over the idea and think of ways which could theoretically make this work in the context of Guild Wars 2, considering GW1 and the differences between them while at the same time trying to avoid breaking the entire game we have now.

 

Gear loses stats and instead grants distribute-able stat points in quantity based on rarity.

For example at level 80 a full set of gear currently grants (this is based off of current wiki numbers for ascended, the other rarities are broken down based on the approximate value difference) in stats:

Basic/White (100%) - 2,064

Fine (125%) - 2,580

Masterwork (135%) - 2,786

Rare  (145%) - 2,992

Exotic (165%) - 3,405

Ascended (175%) - 3,612

Legendary (175%) - 3,612

 

For simplicity sake, we divide all these numbers by 100, the end result would be:

Basic - 20

Fine - 25

Masterwork - 27

Rare - 29

Exotic - 34

Ascended - 36

Legendary - 36

 

These would be points distribute-able to the stats at will (obviously the entire calculations would have to be redone for breakpoints etc) distributed to the different item slots in a similar proportion as now. Think of the rune system in GW1. Traits which grants stats would be reduced/changed to the new point system.

 

What about stat sets that we currently have? They would disappear.

 

What about future stat sets? There are none in this system.

 

What about changing stats?

An item would first need to be "dedicated" to a build, at which point the stat points become available for distribution. Anything up to and including exotic items has no way of freeing up stat points once dedicated. The item needs to be replaced. Ascended items can be "un-dedicated" similar to the current formula. Legendary items retain their "free stat selection" and allow players to add or subtract stats at will.

 

What about souldbound versus account bound?

That's a tad more complicated. Ascended items would first have to be "un-dedicated" before they can be traded again. Unless the stat choice is saved to the item, which puts us back to where we are now. Souldbound items in the new system are use them and lose them, as they are now. Difference being that it might not be possible to take them off (unless again stats are saved to the item).

 

What about runes/sigils?

What about them? Stats on them would be converted into the new point system, otherwise same as now.

 

What are the benefits from this?

Players would have to actively distribute points which in turn requires them to make an active decision in which stats they are aiming for, unlike now where they might slap on an item based purely on its color without understanding of the stats on it. Furthermore all items would now be "the same" granting a specific amount of stats for free distribution based on rarity. This would be counteracted somewhat with the fact that there is more "churn" and turnover when switching exotic items.

 

What are the detriments?

The most obvious would be the loss of different stat sets. Players who do not spend their stat points would be even worse off than now. Gear swapping would become more restrictive because now after dedicating an item if you take it off it is "lost" aka destroyed (again unless stats selected are saved towards the item, which is similar to what we have now).

 

Still not a fan of it, but at least this way a ton of other aspects of this game like traits and other interactions would remain intact.

[Catilleon.9258]

8 hours ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

I'm scared to check my notifications tomorrow but I gotta say it. I think Power and condition should be baked into the traits, it'd allow Anet to balance several specs across the board and would also allow gear sets to be reworked with more focus. Likewise, they could fine tune specs more because there's less fragmentization of gear.

 

Sure you do less healing or less crit but focusing on support or DPS wouldn't be so heavy. Power and condition causes a lot of confusion, and some people have terrible build stats while others don't play what they want because they feel they need a perfect stat set. In my opinion, it makes the game more customizable you can play power or condi, and swap based on build and not gear. As a bonus you get a reason to sell those silly build slots

 

 

Well I more or less agree with everyone else's sentiment that this misses the forest for the trees. Solving a problem by creating the same problem. And it would probably make trait choices more restrictive, ironically.

 

Though I'm curious about what your intentions for gear was in this theoretical scenario.

 

Would gear now have no stats aside from defense rating and weapon strength, making them a vehicle for runes in terms of build customisation. 

 

Or would gear now have all the stats that aren't Power, Condition Damage, or Healing Power. Making stat combinations more of a mix and match.

[Salvatore.3749]

 

9 hours ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

I'm scared to check my notifications tomorrow but I gotta say it. I think Power and condition should be baked into the traits, it'd allow Anet to balance several specs across the board and would also allow gear sets to be reworked with more focus. Likewise, they could fine tune specs more because there's less fragmentization of gear.

 

Sure you do less healing or less crit but focusing on support or DPS wouldn't be so heavy. Power and condition causes a lot of confusion, and some people have terrible build stats while others don't play what they want because they feel they need a perfect stat set. In my opinion, it makes the game more customizable you can play power or condi, and swap based on build and not gear. As a bonus you get a reason to sell those silly build slots

 

 

Your idea needs some refinement.

Let's time travel back to Guild Wars (queue in time travel music). In Guild Wars, we had a unique mechanic called skills. Your professions had multiple skills that could be changed out to determine different individual playstyle per profession and you had access to a secondary profession for even more skills. In Guild Wars, some skills required certain weapons whereas others did not. Guild Wars 2 has assigned certain skills to certain weapons per profession. 

What Guild Wars 2 needs are more skills per profession to provide unique gameplay to every profession. Take the monk from Guild Wars, you had the option to heal and reduce damage or smite, yeah, shoot out rays of judgment causing massive aoe damage and burning your foes. You could even spec for smite and healing power if you wanted to do. The assassin had various attack chains with dagger skills that gave specific effects, you could use shadow form and cast sliver armor (an elementalist skill) to solo large mobs, or you could utilize critical strikes and the skill way of the master with an axe and demolish your enemies hitting for 104 critical damage with triple chop, while tanking and blocking with critical defenses, and way of perfection (self-healing per critical hit). Rangers could use hammers and their pets with increased attack speed had almost no cool down or energy costs on skills (and with expertise). 

Essentially, depending on your profession, you could set up your class to bleed, hex, burn, or consistently stun your foes, set up for a tank that deals aoe damage, fight from range with a bow or nukes, or even summon spirits and zombies at the same time. 

Does this sound appealing to you? If so, play Guild Wars 1 and see why Guild Wars 1 veterans want this mechanic back so desperately. Trust me, I want the option to have my thief's dagger heartseeker to have a variant that causes poison, bleed, and burn depending on the health level of my foe, or the option to use horns of the ox for dagger skill three instead of deathblossom to knock down foes while having a follow up of falling lotus strike on skill 3 to regain initiative mid-combat. Mind you, this would be cc and condition damage based. I hope you get the picture because all professions could benefit from another set of skills variants for more gameplay. 

 I've just seen this opportunity missed multiple times and seen multiple players ask for reworks when the answer to a lot of problem is within the limited weapon skill mechanics that Guild Wars 2 has.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Salvatore.3749
Grammar

[nopoet.2960]

12 hours ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

My point is that builds and balance can be better defined. Stats are not a fun. It's not even a huge change really. Remove the complicated part that causes balance headaches.

 

Why is power and condition stats fun? That's the question. Can it be replaced with other stats? If so, why power and condition then? Does it matter if you're forced to pick gear sets that require those stats anyways?

 

You know your OP is an interesting idea.  Maybe only allow offensive stats on weapons and defensive stats on armor?  Of course that would mean changing everything but it's interesting to think about and would make traits even more impactful.

[TheFlyinEagle.7594]

It's absolutely pointless! No matter what the developers would do, you'll still have players requesting that players have XYZ to be able to join parties or squads. Will still bottleneck it to players that ain't as strong gameplay wise etc. 

[Aplethoraof.2643]

I'd be fine if (and this is directed at RPGs in general) gear and stats were less of +damage or +stat. Those tend to be boring.

 

For GW2 in particular, I'd say my dream system would be:

1) Each minor and major trait gives (in addition to its effect) some +stats. Maybe they also reduce other stats depending on the trait, to make it more interesting.

2) Instead of stats on weapons, you have sigil slots. White has 2, and every set of gear beyond that gets 1 more sigil slot. Sigils become the main thing for gear, and they could really expand on the number of effects. Things like "after you use a utility skill you summon X minion for Y seconds", "after you use your 5th weapon skill you do Z effect". These would serve to change up how you play beyond traits, and they are certainly easier to add than traits. They could add in some stats on each sigil as well, to add in some variety to balance and make up for "lost stats".

3) Runes are fine IMO. Runes are perfect. Though, more in-line with 2, it would be nice if they had a minor effect at 1, a medium effect at 3, and then at 5 (like they do now), they have a more serious special effect.

4) For legendary weapons, perhaps you get every sigil without having to purchase one ever again. For ascended and below, you can swap freely but you need to purchase them individually.

5) For armour, maybe exotic can equip 2 runes and ascended/legendary can equip 3 runes. Same deal with runes as with sigils (from sections 2 and 4), you can freely swap but legendary armour has access to all of them.

6) Damage on weapons is also removed. Damage is based on your character's level, not your weapon's quality. Your weapon's quality just determines how many sigils you can equip at a time, making it easier for new players to break in.

7) They'd need something similar to runes/sigils for trinkets. Maybe trinkets can equip either runes or sigils, or somesuch.

 

I personally just think that effects that scale vertically (instead of horizontally like stats) are more interesting items to play around with. Things that change what you can do or how you play, instead of just increasing the arbitrary number of power by +1.

 

And this way, sigils/runes can cover for the massive amount of skills GW1 had - or rather, the massive amount of skills you need for a really robust customization system.

 

Things that increase numbers WITH conditions (such as lowering others or only increasing numbers under certain circumstances) are fine IMO, since they still alter how you play. But raw numbers are dull AF.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Aplethoraof.2643

[Astralporing.1957]

18 hours ago, TheFlyinEagle.7594 said:

It's absolutely pointless! No matter what the developers would do, you'll still have players requesting that players have XYZ to be able to join parties or squads. Will still bottleneck it to players that ain't as strong gameplay wise etc. 

The less convoluted (notice, i said "convoluted" and not "complex" because it is not the same) system is, the easier it is to teach how it works to others (or learn how to utilize it decently on your own, without outside help).

The GW2 build system in reality is not a single system, but several completely different systems, taken from different types of games, and based on different ideas, running alongside each other that add up to create a mess most players simply cannot easily see through, much less utilize well. The game would have done far better with a single build system (even if that system by itself would be way more complex than any of the currently existing subsystems are). It would have done even better if it could decide what type of game it is, and what type of players the system should be aimed at.

[Loules.8601]

1 hour ago, Aplethoraof.2643 said:

1) Each minor and major trait gives (in addition to its effect) some +stats. Maybe they also reduce other stats depending on the trait, to make it more interesting.

 

So you need to pick trait for its stats and not effect? I think it's not a good idea - MUCH less build diversity

 

1 hour ago, Aplethoraof.2643 said:

2) Instead of stats on weapons, you have sigil slots. White has 2, and every set of gear beyond that gets 1 more sigil slot. Sigils become the main thing for gear, and they could really expand on the number of effects. Things like "after you use a utility skill you summon X minion for Y seconds", "after you use your 5th weapon skill you do Z effect". These would serve to change up how you play beyond traits, and they are certainly easier to add than traits. They could add in some stats on each sigil as well, to add in some variety to balance and make up for "lost stats".

Well, in most (not all) parts it sounds interesting - because... more build diversity 😄

[Buran.3796]

   We already had atribute points attached to traitlines in the past, way before the traitline system was revamped, and was a worse system which lacked the versatility of the current one.

 

   Also there's nothing confusing about the current system in place: you want physical damage (strike)? You use berserker gear. You want condition damage? Either viper or grieving. You can afford be sub-max dps and want extra things? Then trailblazer or diviner (or minstrel if you want full support).  And once you get full legendary gear the doubts or problems selecting stats are gone forever...

[Akronox.8251]

What most people seem to forget about GW1 is that you have to pay to change your build which does not work in a dynamic game like GW2 where in the same instance you might change builds multiple times.

There is already a gamemode where your gear stats don't matter, it is sPVP, the main reason being you can play any class you want and have the same stats as your opponents because skill rather than gear should make you win or lose .

I don't see how gear having specific stat sets is an issue, it just adds more diversity in the game. Developpers can make an elite specilization oriented  towards only power or condi but some theorycrafters can find builds to play it in a different way with different gear stats.

The GW2 gear system is one of the best in my opinion as your gear is always relevant once you get it, you never have to grind again (for the same stats) and you can even share it with other characters if you get ascended.

The suggestion also don't make any sense if you consider they literally just added the legendary armory. You want to freely change your stats on your gear? The option is there, get legendary equipment. I cannot emphasize how dumb changing how stats work after incentivizing people to craft legendary gear would be (except if you care only about infinite fashion).

I totallly disagree with the build templates argument because it makes the gear templates completely worthless and second of all you already need to swap trait if you want to play differently regardless of your gear.

 Regarding balance, more diversity makes it maybe a bit more complex because there are more builds to consider but I don't think that when a build overperforms it is due to the gear only, since gear stats are the same for everyone you can remove it from the equation.  So, you would still have to balance around skills and traits just on less builds which I don't think is a fair trade-off.

To conclude, I don't think this is an issue, this goes opposite to the whole game direction since the trait system rework and sacrificing diversity over balancing is not something players should desire.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Akronox.8251
typos

[Puck.3697]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:02 AM, Kalocin.5982 said:

I'm scared to check my notifications tomorrow but I gotta say it. I think Power and condition should be baked into the traits, it'd allow Anet to balance several specs across the board and would also allow gear sets to be reworked with more focus. Likewise, they could fine tune specs more because there's less fragmentization of gear.

 

Sure you do less healing or less crit but focusing on support or DPS wouldn't be so heavy. Power and condition causes a lot of confusion, and some people have terrible build stats while others don't play what they want because they feel they need a perfect stat set. In my opinion, it makes the game more customizable you can play power or condi, and swap based on build and not gear. As a bonus you get a reason to sell those silly build slots

 

 

 

It's kinda the case already though is it? With 0 Inflation of stat quantities on armour effectively the number never moves meaning effectively it never goes up either. 

 

So doesn't it already kinda do what your describing here? As the other stats are effectively being continuously adjusted around them anyway?. 

 

If anything also. This would cause major balance issues as you'd spend more time stacking into other stats hardcore as it'd make hybrid builds even stronger. Things like scourge would start dominating effectively.