Catalyst: Likes and Dislikes

[Einlanzer.1627]

I still think giving the spec a (mostly) melee Hammer was a bad call. Would have been much better to give them MH focus and let them feel like a true mage, even if it meant fewer new weapon skills. 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Genesis.8572 said:

Hey look. Ad hominem attacks. I think we're done here. 

 

No, but you are misconstruing my argument pretty egregiously and rudely so. 

Then maybe you need to be clearer about what your argument actually is rather than hiding it behind obscure quotes and layers of semantics and rhetoric, since every time I try to pin down which point you're actually trying to make, you shift it in a condescending fashion.

 

At the moment, I really only see two possibilities here:

 

The first is that you're simply bullying the OP for their choice of example. In which case... what's the point? The choice of example says nothing about the validity of the opinion being expressed. If the example was unique to D&D, then maybe this argument would have a point, but the fact is that there are a long list of fantasy franchises that could be listed where the elemental mage being a relatively squishy character is the norm, and exceptions are either not present or something rarer and more exceptional. The OP chose to use D&D as their example. It could have been any of literally dozens of other examples, the OP just went for something that everyone involved in fantasy roleplaying games is going to have at least heard of.

 

The second is that you're trying to play the "the developers have the right to do whatever they feel fits their creation, regardless of what expectations the player might have". Which is... not entirely wrong, but it has an obvious counter: players have the right to choose to spend their money on an alternative game which DOES meet their expectations. Guild Wars 2 adds the additional wrinkle to that in this particular discussion that elementalist was advertised as a profession that did meet those expectations (albeit with the option to make something different), so an argument can be made that continuing to neglect that aspect of the elementalist is approaching the point of being false advertising. In any respect, the OP (and everyone else) has the right to politely express their disappointment when expectations aren't met - and, in fact, a good company would prefer that they do so (so that the company can take that feedback on board in the future) rather than have someone express their disappointment by simply disengaging from the franchise without a word.

[Jski.6180]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

At a reasonably casual glance, I think the distinction between Catalyst and Tempest from a support capacity is that Catalyst doesn't really provide much in the way of healing to allies apart from whatever it can pull from core ele. Instead, it offers quickness - but to upkeep permanent quickness requires having either full boon duration or the grandmaster trait, and that requires that you remain in air whenever using the sphere so you're not generating much else. If you have BOTH boon duration gear and the trait, you could get away with only using air sphere half the time.

 

These figures aren't taking alacrity into account, but they're also not taking into account needing to re-energise the sphere either. Either way, it seems that Catalyst CAN provide 5-man quickness, but it's going to be fairly limited in what else it can provide while doing so. Might actually be more useful just filling for gaps in someone else's Quickness uptime rather than being a support build on its own.

The main thing lost for catalyst healing is aura healing and 1 main healing skill a lot of the healing from tempest comes from core ele and with the added water fields catalyst has it should be able to do enofe burst heal to support heal AND powerfully boon support. That fine but tempest comply lacks any type of powerfully boon this is more then just quickness that the tempest class in lacking for def support. Tempest needs a real support update and not just another target nerf or healing nerf to "balance it out" vs the new elite spec support ability.

[Genesis.8572]

25 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Then maybe you need to be clearer about what your argument actually is rather than hiding it behind obscure quotes and layers of semantics and rhetoric, since every time I try to pin down which point you're actually trying to make, you shift it in a condescending fashion.

First of all, would you mind laying off the insults and quit making it personal? 

 

Secondly, I did not think that I was somehow hiding my argument behind obscure quotes or even trying to be pretentious about it, as (1) I stated the quote in my OP, and then I rephrased it after quoting it to make my point clearer, and (2) expanded my point on that matter further. 

 

25 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

At the moment, I really only see two possibilities here:

 

The first is that you're simply bullying the OP for their choice of example.

Woah. Hold it there. How am I bullying the OP? I did not agree with their D&D comparison, and I listed why in a single post responding to them. Since then, my exchanges in this thread have entirely been with you, and so far you have been the one who has been lobbing insults at me. You still keep escalating things and making it increasingly made your argument about me. 

I have repeatedly stated that I think that for both you and the OP, that your desires and aesthetic preferences regarding espec are valid ones to hold. I have indicated that I would want a more ranged espec as well. I just don't think that the D&D comparison is an apt one, about which the discussion then kind of derailed into one about whether Elementalists would be Wizards or Sorcerers.* (*The answer is neither because D&D fantasy is its own idiomatic genre.) I suspect that it's a bit of a smokescreen for the real disappointment that the OP is feeling. 

 

25 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In any respect, the OP (and everyone else) has the right to politely express their disappointment when expectations aren't met - and, in fact, a good company would prefer that they do so (so that the company can take that feedback on board in the future) rather than have someone express their disappointment by simply disengaging from the franchise without a word.

I have not said otherwise, and I have also made repeated points where I have tried to reaffirm and validate that disappointment. 

[draxynnic.3719]

21 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The main thing lost for catalyst healing is aura healing and 1 main healing skill a lot of the healing from tempest comes from core ele and with the added water fields catalyst has it should be able to do enofe burst heal to support heal AND powerfully boon support. That fine but tempest comply lacks any type of powerfully boon this is more then just quickness that the tempest class in lacking for def support. Tempest needs a real support update and not just another target nerf or healing nerf to "balance it out" vs the new elite spec support ability.

It's also missing water overloads off the top of my head. Whether you WANT to overload water as a support tempest is an interesting question, but it's an option and it won't lock you out of water if you don't leave water.

 

I'm aware that a lot can also come out of core - but you don't often see heal weavers, do you? Tempest still adds additional healing on top of that baseline. Catalyst doesn't seem to add much past the baseline apart from the potential to blast the water sphere - and if you're trying to maintain boons, you're probably going to want to maximise your air sphere uptime for quickness.

 

We'd need to see the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that tempest will still provide better healing. Meanwhile, a catalyst that focuses healing won't be able to provide the boons they theoretically could since spending most of their time in water just won't give them the opportunity.

 

Which I suspect will be the Achilles heel of support catalyst - it could theoretically do a lot with one build, but in practice it can only do so much at once. If it's providing quickness, for instance, that requires it to spend a lot of 'sphere time' in air, which will limit its ability to heal or to perform an optimised DPS rotation. The advantage is that Catalyst will be able to 'shift gears' if needed - switching from quickness application to healing if the party really needs help staying alive, say - more than being able to do everything at once. That's my read of it, anyway.

 

The big problem heal tempest has is that it's pretty much a pure healer in an environment where pure healing isn't really in high demand. It's already competing with druid, firebrand, even heal renegade would probably pop up before heal tempest if the current staples were nerfed to death. Which means that, yes, heal tempest probably could do with something extra, but I don't think Catalyst will really be making much difference there. It seems more likely to me that Catalyst will be competing with the likes of quickbrands and harbingers. Situations that do call for the top-tier healing of heal tempest will probably not be as suitable for Catalyst.

[Touchme.1097]

From a long time roleplaying, MMO gaming and tabletop gaming experience I think Anet doesn't know what to do with Elementalist. This profession doesn't have a firm identity and the Catalyst is just one of many proofs to my argument.

The profession should be scrapped entirely and replaced by a mage/sorcerer because GW2 doesn't have a single profession which gives the feeling of playing a traditional Spellcaster.

As an Elite spec concept swords and longbows make sense to me, hammer does not. Hammer requires heavy Strength and also Stamina, two requirements that Elementalist doesn't have at all.

I like the game but some professions and Elite Specs feel too out of place for me.

I was done playing Elementalist a few months ago when I quitted playing this weird profession that also brings nothing to group content unlike other professions like Revenant and Guardian.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's also missing water overloads off the top of my head. Whether you WANT to overload water as a support tempest is an interesting question, but it's an option and it won't lock you out of water if you don't leave water.

 

I'm aware that a lot can also come out of core - but you don't often see heal weavers, do you? Tempest still adds additional healing on top of that baseline. Catalyst doesn't seem to add much past the baseline apart from the potential to blast the water sphere - and if you're trying to maintain boons, you're probably going to want to maximise your air sphere uptime for quickness.

 

We'd need to see the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that tempest will still provide better healing. Meanwhile, a catalyst that focuses healing won't be able to provide the boons they theoretically could since spending most of their time in water just won't give them the opportunity.

 

Which I suspect will be the Achilles heel of support catalyst - it could theoretically do a lot with one build, but in practice it can only do so much at once. If it's providing quickness, for instance, that requires it to spend a lot of 'sphere time' in air, which will limit its ability to heal or to perform an optimised DPS rotation. The advantage is that Catalyst will be able to 'shift gears' if needed - switching from quickness application to healing if the party really needs help staying alive, say - more than being able to do everything at once. That's my read of it, anyway.

 

The big problem heal tempest has is that it's pretty much a pure healer in an environment where pure healing isn't really in high demand. It's already competing with druid, firebrand, even heal renegade would probably pop up before heal tempest if the current staples were nerfed to death. Which means that, yes, heal tempest probably could do with something extra, but I don't think Catalyst will really be making much difference there. It seems more likely to me that Catalyst will be competing with the likes of quickbrands and harbingers. Situations that do call for the top-tier healing of heal tempest will probably not be as suitable for Catalyst.

In most environments water overload is too slow to keep ppl up at best your using it for the clears and guessing when a big spike is about to happen. Burst healing is stronger then channel healing in a moment to moment game play that why blasting water is going to be much stronger or a 1 button press being a one heal like tempest healing skills. That and cat gets freedom to go back to its water atument with out the big 20 sec cd and still able to use its f5 for a water field / -33% condi dmg boon its a big deal that cat getting this over tempest.

Weaver gets barrier it lets it have time to heal tempest dose not get this barrier for self or others to give it time to heal. Cat will have +10% healing power as well to all of its states water fields on demand and more blast over all.

Tempest will give better healing but most of that healing is OVER healing that often are very hard to time out and have no lasting effect other then just that heal. A 30 sec cd shout that give a 1 stack reg or a 35 sec 3 sec super speed sturn brake are jokes compared to what cat can do for boon support. Cat will have lower cd on its wepon healing skills it will also have better healing power and it will have better boons over all.

As you even are pointing out tempest healing is pointless most of the time this game not even geard to tell you how well your healing others. This game pve pvp and wvw is about doing boons then dmg or healing not healing or dmg then boons. Making Cat a better support class then tempest.

[HotDelirium.7984]

I don't like how the water is giving vigor when sure it means more dodge but disengaging fights to then have to run back into melee to begin again is cumbersome. Dodging when your a ranged fighter is great because you dodge and keep pewpewing no matter what. It would have been awesome to create your Well and then be this elemental zone that creates many combos from the combo field.

Edited September 20, 2021 by HotDelirium.7984

[The Great Al.2546]

23 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

From a long time roleplaying, MMO gaming and tabletop gaming experience I think Anet doesn't know what to do with Elementalist. This profession doesn't have a firm identity and the Catalyst is just one of many proofs to my argument.

The profession should be scrapped entirely and replaced by a mage/sorcerer because GW2 doesn't have a single profession which gives the feeling of playing a traditional Spellcaster.

As an Elite spec concept swords and longbows make sense to me, hammer does not. Hammer requires heavy Strength and also Stamina, two requirements that Elementalist doesn't have at all.

I like the game but some professions and Elite Specs feel too out of place for me.

I was done playing Elementalist a few months ago when I quitted playing this weird profession that also brings nothing to group content unlike other professions like Revenant and Guardian.

I don’t think a longbow would feel any different from the Staff. Can you really picture longbow fire 5, presumably an arrow storm, feel any different from meteor shower? There’s nothing that they would put on a longbow that would feel realistically different from Staff. This is partially because there’s no distinction between damage types. 

[Forum Moderator.3074]

I would like to remind you all to please be civil and avoid to use every post to pick on each other or else we will have to lock this thread.

[Matt H.6142]

Hurricane of Pain should absolutely be a whirl finisher, as should whirling stones.  I mean it's in the name.  I know they don't want to trigger the aura with a combo trait too easily, but it's already got a 10 sec ICD.

The jade sphere interaction with Tornado will be interesting, and if it despawns because of the transform, then that needs to change.

There's also a lot of projectiles that are not projectile finishers which also doesn't make sense.  If combos is the idea, then go all in.

[Touchme.1097]

2 hours ago, The Great Al.2546 said:

I don’t think a longbow would feel any different from the Staff. Can you really picture longbow fire 5, presumably an arrow storm, feel any different from meteor shower? There’s nothing that they would put on a longbow that would feel realistically different from Staff. This is partially because there’s no distinction between damage types. 

That's entirely your opinion and if you can't see any difference between staff and longbow I can't help you opening your imagination and creativity. There are a lot of new skills that would fit longbow to Elementalist. There are a lot of fan made Elite Specialisation ideas and even more information on the internet. Go have a look yourself. I don't work for Anet so my input won't reach them anyway.

[SauroN.2501]

2 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

Hurricane of Pain should absolutely be a whirl finisher, as should whirling stones.  I mean it's in the name.  I know they don't want to trigger the aura with a combo trait too easily, but it's already got a 10 sec ICD.

The jade sphere interaction with Tornado will be interesting, and if it despawns because of the transform, then that needs to change.

There's also a lot of projectiles that are not projectile finishers which also doesn't make sense.  If combos is the idea, then go all in.

I feel like hurricane of pain should also be target based, like the 2nd skill of longbow from ranger (rapid fire). Enemies near the target get damaged. But now just 1 dodge from the enemy and your just swirling around there being a sitting duck doing nothing with the lowest health pool of the game. Makes the skill quite useless if your fighting something that moves. Adding a whirl finisher sounds logical and makes the skill a bit more usefull in my opinion or maybe add projectile reflection with it might also be a good idea? 

 

 

[The Great Al.2546]

4 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

That's entirely your opinion and if you can't see any difference between staff and longbow I can't help you opening your imagination and creativity. There are a lot of new skills that would fit longbow to Elementalist. There are a lot of fan made Elite Specialisation ideas and even more information on the internet. Go have a look yourself. I don't work for Anet so my input won't reach them anyway.

 

I've seen the fan made ideas. The Fire Longbow is like Fire Staff. Air Longbow is like Air Staff, etc. The changes are mainly aesthetic, the playstyle is exactly the same.

Edited September 19, 2021 by The Great Al.2546

[Liewec.2896]

i'm kinda peeved that we have ANOTHER melee ele elite spec...

meanwhile i'm still waiting for ele to have a spec that actually allows it to fulfil the "mage" archetype.

core has seen too many nerfs over the years to be viable, i used to love playing fire staff ele.

i was really expecting to see an elite spec that lets us focus on one element.

maybe call it "acolyte" and it would allow us to focus entirely on one playstyle like a true mage instead of being a stancedancer.

instead of having 4 buttons to swap between elements we get 4 new spells for our chosen element.

example being "acolyte of fire" granting huge bonuses to power and ferocity and granting 4 aoe high damage/burning skills.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Liewec.2896

[fixit.7189]

it's strange. when i first played ele in beta, i loved the staff. so i mained staff ele for 3 years. then they started nerfing it to the point i don't use the staff no more. all my builds are melee base. ie power sword/dagger weaver and condi dagger/warhorn tempest. the only times i use staff is when it's a boss like the karka queen, other than that i only melee with my ele. all i can say is, i really hope they do something with staff, it used to be awesome but now i use it to hang my coats off of. 😉

Edited September 20, 2021 by fixit.7189

[AshenOwl.2485]

I'm more excited for Catalyst after seeing it in action, but weirdly also more disappointed? Like, the F5 mechanic just seems like such a good base for a ranged class. Ranged weapons output less DPS than melee because they have the ability to deal damage without really giving up mobility or safety. So if we want to see ranged damage be at least slightly competitive with melee, we need to limit the mobility you have access to from range.

This new F5 seems like the perfect mechanic to build on that, turning a ranged Ele into an immobile artillery unit. Needing to stay in your circle to maximize damage would be the balancing act, similar to Black Mage in Final Fantasy XIV (the class maximizes damage output by minimizing movement). Ele in particular already has a great basis for a rotation like this, leading with Water/Earth to slow and immobilize enemies, and Fire/Air to blow them up.

That all being said, I'm definitely gonna be playing Catalyst when it comes out. I'm not super into the aesthetic of the hammer, but I do like the hammer kit they showed us. Here's hoping when (if?) we get more Elites in the future we'll get an Elite focused on ranged.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:56 AM, Jski.6180 said:

As you even are pointing out tempest healing is pointless most of the time this game not even geard to tell you how well your healing others. This game pve pvp and wvw is about doing boons then dmg or healing not healing or dmg then boons. Making Cat a better support class then tempest.

Because this is ultimately my point. It's supporting in a different way to tempest, and therefore it's not occluding tempest. If more healing is what the group actually needs, tempest will still be the way to go. Catalyst doesn't offer much more healing that core ele does - in fact, it's noteworthy that the water sphere doesn't actually provide healing beyond whatever comes from using combos on that field and hammer doesn't have a blast finisher in water, and all those auras aren't generating healing without the tempest traits that add healing and regeneration to auras. Tempest is still going to provide more healing.

 

(Yes, I know, a support catalyst doesn't need to use hammer. You could, for instance, run dagger/focus and blast the water field that way, when dagger/focus normally doesn't have easy access to water fields to blast. But that's a relatively small advantage compared to having team-oriented support with the heal skill and elite, the aforementioned heal-on-aura-application traits, and being able to pick utilities that then provide even more auras.)

 

The real problem is that this is rarely what the group actually needs. Catalysts aren't going to replace heal tempests - heal tempests are already marginalised. Instead, catalysts are going to be primarily competing with firebrands and scrappers.

 

And even there, I think needing to be in air to provide quickness is going to be a handicap to catalysts being able to heal as well (particularly if they do want to try blasting that kirin field) - unlike firebrands and scrappers, they're not going to be able to provide both healing and quickness at the same time, at best they'll need to spend a certain amount of time in air to keep the quickness up and heal the rest of the time. 

 

You could argue that maybe they should have given a valuable boon to tempest instead (not just 25 might, tempest can already do that) - but I think catalyst is different enough to tempest and weaver that it deserves to exist, even if they really should have worked in a more ranged-oriented elite specialisation before take 4. Maybe such a buff will happen down the line - it just won't be quickness.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/19/2021 at 3:42 AM, Touchme.1097 said:

From a long time roleplaying, MMO gaming and tabletop gaming experience I think Anet doesn't know what to do with Elementalist. This profession doesn't have a firm identity and the Catalyst is just one of many proofs to my argument.

The profession should be scrapped entirely and replaced by a mage/sorcerer because GW2 doesn't have a single profession which gives the feeling of playing a traditional Spellcaster.

As an Elite spec concept swords and longbows make sense to me, hammer does not. Hammer requires heavy Strength and also Stamina, two requirements that Elementalist doesn't have at all.

I like the game but some professions and Elite Specs feel too out of place for me.

I was done playing Elementalist a few months ago when I quitted playing this weird profession that also brings nothing to group content unlike other professions like Revenant and Guardian.

That's a little bit extreme.

 

I've seen elemental magic associated with big buff people with two-handed hammers before. The Solarii of Majesty come to mind. Sure, it doesn't fit the traditional spellcaster archetype, but the elementalist profession should be able to cover multiple interpretations of elemental magic use rather than being limited purely to squishy spellcasters.

 

The problem is that at the moment they've been doing so at the cost of completely neglecting the more traditional archetype.

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because this is ultimately my point. It's supporting in a different way to tempest, and therefore it's not occluding tempest. If more healing is what the group actually needs, tempest will still be the way to go. Catalyst doesn't offer much more healing that core ele does - in fact, it's noteworthy that the water sphere doesn't actually provide healing beyond whatever comes from using combos on that field and hammer doesn't have a blast finisher in water, and all those auras aren't generating healing without the tempest traits that add healing and regeneration to auras. Tempest is still going to provide more healing.

 

(Yes, I know, a support catalyst doesn't need to use hammer. You could, for instance, run dagger/focus and blast the water field that way, when dagger/focus normally doesn't have easy access to water fields to blast. But that's a relatively small advantage compared to having team-oriented support with the heal skill and elite, the aforementioned heal-on-aura-application traits, and being able to pick utilities that then provide even more auras.)

 

The real problem is that this is rarely what the group actually needs. Catalysts aren't going to replace heal tempests - heal tempests are already marginalised. Instead, catalysts are going to be primarily competing with firebrands and scrappers.

 

And even there, I think needing to be in air to provide quickness is going to be a handicap to catalysts being able to heal as well (particularly if they do want to try blasting that kirin field) - unlike firebrands and scrappers, they're not going to be able to provide both healing and quickness at the same time, at best they'll need to spend a certain amount of time in air to keep the quickness up and heal the rest of the time. 

 

You could argue that maybe they should have given a valuable boon to tempest instead (not just 25 might, tempest can already do that) - but I think catalyst is different enough to tempest and weaver that it deserves to exist, even if they really should have worked in a more ranged-oriented elite specialisation before take 4. Maybe such a buff will happen down the line - it just won't be quickness.

I think you need to take a look at other support classes out side of ele and see just how much is working agned the tempest classes. Being able to over heal ppl is pointless in this game and the lack of strong boons is a major draw back for tempest. If they are going to give Cat these strong boons as well as this many auras and fields tempest is going to be replaced as an support.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I think you need to take a look at other support classes out side of ele and see just how much is working agned the tempest classes. Being able to over heal ppl is pointless in this game and the lack of strong boons is a major draw back for tempest. If they are going to give Cat these strong boons as well as this many auras and fields tempest is going to be replaced as an support.

...you're pretty much repeating my point back at me with the first two sentences there.

 

Catalyst and tempest are doing different things. Tempest is still better at healing, Catalyst provides a desirable boon.

 

Thing is, Catalyst isn't replacing tempest as support. Tempest has already been sidelined as support in most groups due to the lack of strong boons.

 

If we had a shift in the meta such that tempest-level healing was actually wanted, or if tempest was given a useful boon other than quickness, you could feasibly have a tempest and a catalyst in the same group both providing support without stepping on each other's toes.

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

...you're pretty much repeating my point back at me with the first two sentences there.

 

Catalyst and tempest are doing different things. Tempest is still better at healing, Catalyst provides a desirable boon.

 

Thing is, Catalyst isn't replacing tempest as support. Tempest has already been sidelined as support in most groups due to the lack of strong boons.

 

If we had a shift in the meta such that tempest-level healing was actually wanted, or if tempest was given a useful boon other than quickness, you could feasibly have a tempest and a catalyst in the same group both providing support without stepping on each other's toes.

You kind of go on for a good bit and i think its best to keep things simple or your losing the point of what balancing for each class is. Tempest lacks quickness or realty any other powerfully boon. You dont need as much healing as you get from tempest and your not going to out heal one shot skills from pve or pvp/wvw. FB and Scraper give quickness and other powerful boons tempest dose not but they are able to heal enofe and that what support is in gw2 being able to heal enofe to get you though moment from moment  and even to rez as needed for long cd heal rotation. Tempest keep ppl at full hp OR they have been one shot but with out boons where other healing support just keep ppl alive long enofe or they will have been one shot with boons. Cat can fill a just enofe healing roll but with boons.

Its a big deal that they are giving cat quickness and Resistance and Resolution these are boons that will stop the one shot though making a player skills faster to cast to save them self a stop to any type of soft cc (even clear spam your going to stop for a moment just soft cc is enofe to be one shot) and resolution not so much a one shot protection but having this and protection effectively lets you let your group last 33% longer at all times missing one of these means your open to that dmg type. Sadly tempest +7% protection dose NOT carry over to other ppl in your group its self only and realty over all this is nothing tempest get that is truly uniquest for an support beyond missing boons and the lack of barriers.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

You kind of go on for a good bit and i think its best to keep things simple or your losing the point of what balancing for each class is. Tempest lacks quickness or realty any other powerfully boon. You dont need as much healing as you get from tempest and your not going to out heal one shot skills from pve or pvp/wvw. FB and Scraper give quickness and other powerful boons tempest dose not but they are able to heal enofe and that what support is in gw2 being able to heal enofe to get you though moment from moment  and even to rez as needed for long cd heal rotation. Tempest keep ppl at full hp OR they have been one shot but with out boons where other healing support just keep ppl alive long enofe or they will have been one shot with boons. Cat can fill a just enofe healing roll but with boons.

Its a big deal that they are giving cat quickness and Resistance and Resolution these are boons that will stop the one shot though making a player skills faster to cast to save them self a stop to any type of soft cc (even clear spam your going to stop for a moment just soft cc is enofe to be one shot) and resolution not so much a one shot protection but having this and protection effectively lets you let your group last 33% longer at all times missing one of these means your open to that dmg type. Sadly tempest +7% protection dose NOT carry over to other ppl in your group its self only and realty over all this is nothing tempest get that is truly uniquest for an support beyond missing boons and the lack of barriers.

Okay. Let me put it to you simply:

 

If Catalyst simply did not exist. Don't even replace it with anything. Elementalist just misses out on an elite specialisation for EoD. So sad, too bad.

 

Does this make people any more likely to include heal tempests in their group than they do now?

 

Nope.

 

Because heal tempest has already been pushed out of the meta, for reasons that we are furiously agreeing on. If people want quickness and a little bit of healing, they'll take firebrand or heal quickness scrapper. One more build that offers the kind of support people actually want is not going to change whether people use heal tempest.

 

But for the thing heal tempest IS good at (big healing, stopping people from downing in the first place with a clutch Rebound), Catalyst is inferior. It's just that most people don't care about that.

[Jski.6180]

7 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Okay. Let me put it to you simply:

 

If Catalyst simply did not exist. Don't even replace it with anything. Elementalist just misses out on an elite specialisation for EoD. So sad, too bad.

 

Does this make people any more likely to include heal tempests in their group than they do now?

 

Nope.

 

Because heal tempest has already been pushed out of the meta, for reasons that we are furiously agreeing on. If people want quickness and a little bit of healing, they'll take firebrand or heal quickness scrapper. One more build that offers the kind of support people actually want is not going to change whether people use heal tempest.

 

But for the thing heal tempest IS good at (big healing, stopping people from downing in the first place with a clutch Rebound), Catalyst is inferior. It's just that most people don't care about that.

EoD elite spec dont add any thing to the game atm there no new effect.

So buff tempest! That what i am asking for and using cat getting these boons as a jumping point that Yes it is a go for ele to get these boons from anet and its time to give it to tempest and even weaver.

Pure healing is not a roll to play in gw2 and all tempest can do is pure healing that a real problem. Cat will be able to heal (like all eles can) and give quickness why not let tempest get something too!?

[draxynnic.3719]

Giving tempest something desirable is something I've acknowledged as a possibility throughout. Alacrity, perhaps. Or some unique stat buff effect that gets applied whenever the tempest applies an aura to someone (this could vary depending on the aura). As long as it's not quickness, tempest and catalyst are still compatible with each other.

 

Ultimately, catalyst existing is not the problem for heal tempest. The problem for heal tempest is that most people have never wanted what it brought to high-end PvE in the first place.