What happened between the first an second batch of especs?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Vindicator and bladesworn are terribly designed, and catalyst is just core ele with an extra combo field. Do people really like the vindicator dodge? How you support allies by spamming dodge on top of them? Do people really like bladesworn? Where you spend 50% of your rotation channeling? The first 3 specs are far better, i hope they scrap vindicator and bladesworn "mechanics" and do something to make catalyst more usable.

[Mik.3401]

I think the e-specs are still pretty much work in progress in it’s early stages, they need to hurry for February I guess.

Seems like the first batch came out shortly after they even started working on them (I hope, because if they spent long months on them then it is embarrassing).

Bladesworn, Harbinger and Vindicator seem to be most fleshed out. Necro is the most functional one because core trait lines of necro make it OP as hell - no matter what e-spec is applied you’ll be fine.

The remaining 3 though - mostly represented by the first batch seem like they have been designed very recently as they make little sense.  They all have theme and interesting concept lore-wise which has little to do with actual functionality. Like for each of them core class is better.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Turns out they're all bad. At least vindi, BS and HB are salvageable. The rest is a pathetic excuse of design.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Turns out they're all bad. At least vindi, BS and HB are salvageable. The rest is a pathetic excuse of design.

Eh, they're all salvageable. Willbender, for instance, while it's copping the majority of the flack, probably just needs a bit more fluidity and speed in its animations (reduce some of the aftercasts, reduce or remove the lag between arriving at the target and striking with F1, etc) and a few number tweaks to shift the risk-reward balance a little more to the right. Willbender actually felt to me that, design-wise, it was still pretty solid, it just felt really bad because the numbers (particularly activation times and aftercasts) were.

[Afyael.1740]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh, they're all salvageable. Willbender, for instance, while it's copping the majority of the flack, probably just needs a bit more fluidity and speed in its animations (reduce some of the aftercasts, reduce or remove the lag between arriving at the target and striking with F1, etc) and a few number tweaks to shift the risk-reward balance a little more to the right. Willbender actually felt to me that, design-wise, it was still pretty solid, it just felt really bad because the numbers (particularly activation times and aftercasts) were.

It's not just the aftercasts. There are just so many skills that do the same thing? How often do you use all your skills to zoom across the map? It doesn't fit in PvE at all.

 

You may think it may be better in PvP but it isn't. Great you can zoom to a target. Now you can die because you've used your skills to close the gap. Even if you conserve your skills all you can do is jump to them. Hit them once or twice and then continue chasing them again. It hits like a wet noodle so you can't spike and it is impossible to keep sustained damage on someone that knows how to kite.

 

They need to change a lot of skills to do more than just movement even if they buff the damage. Please get some CC in there or defensive/duelist skills. It's a pretty significant rework required I'm afraid.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Afyael.1740 said:

It's not just the aftercasts. There are just so many skills that do the same thing? How often do you use all your skills to zoom across the map? It doesn't fit in PvE at all.

 

You may think it may be better in PvP but it isn't. Great you can zoom to a target. Now you can die because you've used your skills to close the gap. Even if you conserve your skills all you can do is jump to them. Hit them once or twice and then continue chasing them again. It hits like a wet noodle so you can't spike and it is impossible to keep sustained damage on someone that knows how to kite.

 

They need to change a lot of skills to do more than just movement even if they buff the damage. Please get some CC in there or defensive/duelist skills. It's a pretty significant rework required I'm afraid.

I didn't say it was just the aftercasts, although I focused on them because they were something that made it generally feel bad qualitatively rather than just the numbers not being high enough. Offhand sword really needs to do more damage than focus, for instance. Willbender Flames could probably be more impactful. Traits could be adjusted to have an improved cost/benefit ratio. I could keep going, but it's mostly a matter of tweaking. The risk/reward balance was simply just a little too much risk for too little reward.

 

I've had builds that made heavy use of mobility in PvE. Obviously it matters more in PvP, but I can definitely see PvE situations where Willbender mobility could be a lot of fun if suitably adjusted to be smoother to use.

 

Regarding utility...skills that involve getting in, dealing damage, and getting out (or vice versa) seem like decent duelling options to me. There's also an elite CC and a utility CC. F2 is supposed to be able to generate some significant healing (or self-alacrity if so traited) and F3 can potentially provide a lot of defence, especially if combined with the aegis damage proc trait. Not to mention that you still have access to the core guardian kit (possibly the most solid core in the game) apart from core virtues and associated passives.

 

There's definitely potential there, but it'll take some significant rebalancing to realise that potential.

[Lily.1935]

I'm not sure what you're on about. The first batch ere overall Way superior to the second batch which I can only describe the second batch as bloated with empty calories.

[Dadnir.5038]

Indeed what happened?...

They said that they would break the code of the professions and the first did it pretty well. The second batch on the other hand...

- We got a "concept car" that nobody in it's right mind would drive on a road yet don't break away from the warrior's code in the bladesworn.

- A "dodge" spec as the vindicator that don't break aways from the codes of the revenant (well they did a dual legend and this could have been the whole concept of the spec yet they chose not to... So it doesn't break the codes in the end.)

- A core elementalist with a F5 that thorougly follow the codes of the elementalist...

Honnestly:

- Warrior could have wielded fire magic as a way to break it's "codes". (Something like the chieftain, specialization of the marauder in PoE)

- Revenant could have exploited this concept of dual legend, allowing us to chose the pairing and applying the mechanism to the core legend as well, instead of focusing on a disproportionate dodge and dropping a dual legend on top of it.

- Elementalist could have lost it's regular weapon skills, using elements and attunment in a different way for the exact same number of skill they created.

 

[frareanselm.1925]

Personally I only found interesting the harbinger and virtuoso. The willbender can be fun for a bit with the "martial arts" fighting style, but not for enough for playing as a main.

And the second especs batch has been a total disapointment, as it screams that it has been done in a hurry, these 3 especs lack creativity and depth.

I hope that the 3 medium armor especs remaining, to be very interesting and fun, because harbinger and virtuoso are not enough to buy the expansion.

[draxynnic.3719]

Gotta say, now that we've tried them, I have to say that it feels like what happened is that ArenaNet continued a trend of making elites that look flashy and impressive but aren't really practical to use.

 

Yesterday, I said in another thread that I felt that Bladesworn was just a little better than Willbender, but when I thought about it, I realised that I couldn't rationally justify that conclusion, it was just a case of having spent a month thinking of willbender as the worst of the lot. Thinking back, though, with all the problems it had, from memory it still managed to be smoother and more effective than bladesworn, let alone catalyst. And just to be clear, this isn't me saying I suddenly think willbender was great, it's saying that of the current crop only Vindicator managed to clear the low bar set by willbender.

 

Now, how much of a problem this turns out to be depends on just how genuine ArenaNet is about this being a beta rather than a publicity exercise. There's the potential there, if they're willing to make big changes and take constructive feedback on board, to iron out the problems. It's even possible that they rolled out the beta knowing that the specs were underperforming in order to see what the players focus on as problems and what recommendations are made. It's just a shame we haven't seen the communication we've had in the past.

[Loules.8601]

On 9/26/2021 at 7:50 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

it's saying that of the current crop only Vindicator managed to clear the low bar set by willbender.

Well... current Vindicator "works in practice" much worse than Willbender or Bladesworn

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/28/2021 at 12:25 AM, Loules.8601 said:

Well... current Vindicator "works in practice" much worse than Willbender or Bladesworn

Eh. In my experience, Vindicator felt more functional than Bladesworn at least. The jump takes some getting used to, but I think it works when combined with other damage mitigation. Greatsword felt, at least, okay. Flipover legend skills are a complicating factor, but I think they'll mostly work well with the right builds once people get used to them. The biggest issue I had was the urn - I find it hard to imagine any situation where you'd really want to use it rather than it being a barrier to using the Spear of Archemorus again.

 

Willbender is hard to say authoritatively without playing them back to back. I think Vindicator did better, but comparing tests done side-by-side to memory of tests done a month ago is a bit dicey. Bladesworn, though, definitely did worse. Don't think I even managed to kill Svanir with Bladesworn without it being a case of finishing him off while downed. Didn't think to try doing a 'no Dragon Trigger' run of that test, though, despite observing in other tests that you were better off not using DT. But the observation that you're better off ignoring DT altogether in a PvP environment is really condemning enough.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:25 AM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Vindicator and bladesworn are terribly designed, and catalyst is just core ele with an extra combo field. Do people really like the vindicator dodge? How you support allies by spamming dodge on top of them? Do people really like bladesworn? Where you spend 50% of your rotation channeling? The first 3 specs are far better, i hope they scrap vindicator and bladesworn "mechanics" and do something to make catalyst more usable.

Allow me to answer your Bladesworn question:

Yes.

See here's the deal. There are those among us, who shall not be named but are replying to your post as we speak, that are just ..bad at doing 30k+ rotations. That being just part of general preference for more traditional rpg combat approach - winning through builds and stats rather than Tekken level reflexes.

In comes the Bladesworn. Serious dps results without having to mash buttons at breakneck pace. Much more tactical playstyle that is focused around knowledge of encounter and proper setup for the big beefy Dragon Slash.  5s standing still is a long time and you want to be sure you're not standing in the wrong spot and haven't burned your tools to reposition self if needed.
Reward for getting it right - big fat Dragon Slash that can even hit 500k damage.

Let me tell you, a lot of people will be using their shouts when landing that damage and I ain't talking their warrior utility skills..

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Serious dps results without having to mash buttons at breakneck pace. Much more tactical playstyle that is focused around knowledge of encounter and proper setup for the big beefy Dragon Slash. 

This is probably the only really strong point ive heard about bladesworn. While i agree its nice to have that kind of playstyle in pve, im still very doubtful that the class will be able to play that way in pvp.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Reeks of a rush-job. I don't have much faith in this expansion.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

This is probably the only really strong point ive heard about bladesworn. While i agree its nice to have that kind of playstyle in pve, im still very doubtful that the class will be able to play that way in pvp.

To be fair, pretty much everyone called Spellbreaker as a PvP spec. If that wasn't been nerfed almost to the point of being unviable, getting a PvE-oriented spec right now wouldn't be such a big deal.

 

But yeah, when you have a skill that has a factor of ten or twenty difference between PvE and PvP power scaling... it doesn't exactly feel like good game design.