Reaper shouts were so popular and effective in PvE, they had to be cloned into Vindicator?

[Zenith.7301]

Obvious sarcasm is obvious, but why in hell are we copying target count mechanics that failed miserably in the most played format in the game onto another elite profession? Bunch of skills granting scaling might and quickness with no other effects. Why? Might and quickness will be capped in any group PvE setting.

 

Then to top it off, the Greatsword 5 skill is being turned into the same nerfed meteor shower that has knocked elementalist staff out of viability. Again, why?

 

You say Sw/Sw is supposed to be the single target playstyle. Really? Revenant doesn't even have a viable power spec in PvE because its best benchmark by cheesing a large target golem only is a measly 32-33k DPS while other specs are doing 36-38k DPS. Shiro as a legend brings such a marginal DPS gain, again courtesy of constant PvP nerfs, the same that saw Unrelenting Assault nerfed into disuse on top of the awful cast time increase on Shackling Wave.

 

You then go and force a support aspect into this spec when you can't even bring up the supposed support spec, Herald, up to par, or even give Ventari and Jalis enough boon and utility provision to be a proper competitive support spec to Healbrand or druid.

 

Can we drop the gimmicks that are only relevant in PvP and severely weaken the spec in PvE? It was bad enough for Herald that renegade outperformed it in both support and power damage output despite also being the supreme condi damage spec.

 

What revenant needs is a competitive power DPS PvE spec. You can go and fix Herald to be the heal/buffer support spec, and renegade can remain the condition specific specialization.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Loules.8601]

9 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

Then to top it off, the Greatsword 5 skill is being turned into the same nerfed meteor shower that has knocked elementalist staff out of viability. Again, why?

Top skill, love it very much

[RabbitUp.8294]

What do reaper shouts have to do with any of this? The only scaling on those are on Rise and the cd reduction on the trait.

Also, you mention GS and Meteor Shower. The problem with staff is that Meteor Shower and Lava Font is all it was good for. Vin greatsword has a lot more going for it.

Just wait for the beta and the benchmarks, no point discussing theoretical pve dps based on the stream.

Edited September 18, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Zenith.7301]

35 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

What do reaper shouts have to do with any of this? The only scaling on those are on Rise and the cd reduction on the trait.

Also, you mention GS and Meteor Shower. The problem with staff is that Meteor Shower and Lava Font is all it was good for. Vin greatsword has a lot more going for it.

Just wait for the beta and the benchmarks, no point discussing theoretical pve dps based on the stream.

 

 

The shouts have everything to do with it, because their effectiveness is designed around max target count. The trait for reaper shouts emphasizes this. The heal life force gain, condition removal, might gain, minion damage transfer, and stability off the shouts all are balanced around target counts, and it's why not a single reaper shout besides the stunbreak is used in PvE (and only because most necro stunbreaks are abysmal and have humongous cd's besides the reaper shout).

 

When are you using Chilled to the Bone over flesh golem in PvE? NEVER. 2 sec stun and some small duration chill in exchange for nearly three times the cooldown of flesh golem, which does more CC bar damage, the main reason any of these elites would ever be used.

 

Lava Font and meteor shower were not all it was good for. Before weaver sword came into the mix, staff was already outsustaining the nerfed tempest dagger after anet went and nerfed dagger fire and air autos for no reason whatsoever (or rather, because dagger was good in pvp and pvp is all this game is ever balanced for when it comes to heavy handed nerfs).

 

And Vindicator greatsword has not a lot more going for it. It has exactly 2 DPS skills just like staff, the others are mobility/defensive skills with no PvE relevance.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Heinel.6548]

Right now it does look like vindicators will be good for open world zerg events and little else. Not gonna effect strikes or raids in any meaningful manner borderline acceptable as just another DPS in fractals. But I'm willing to wait and see how things turn out at release.

[Zenith.7301]

31 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

Right now it does look like vindicators will be good for open world zerg events and little else. Not gonna effect strikes or raids in any meaningful manner borderline acceptable as just another DPS in fractals. But I'm willing to wait and see how things turn out at release.

 

The developers are clueless.

 

"The class is not designed to be a boon support, but you will play with other boon supports".

 

UM, NO. THIS IS WHY HEAL TEMPEST DOESN'T SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AND NEITHER DOES HEALING RENEGADE, PURE HEAL SUPPORT SPECS WITHOUT COMPETITIVE UTILITY TO OFFER.

 

DO THEY EVEN PLAY THE PVE IN THEIR OWN GAME? SOLE HEALING THROUGHPUT SUPPORTS ARE NOT USED IN FRACTALS OR RAIDING IN ANY MEANINGFUL RATE.

[SidewayS.3789]

3 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

The developers are clueless.

 

"The class is not designed to be a boon support, but you will play with other boon supports".

 

UM, NO. THIS IS WHY HEAL TEMPEST DOESN'T SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AND NEITHER DOES HEALING RENEGADE, PURE HEAL SUPPORT SPECS WITHOUT COMPETITIVE UTILITY TO OFFER.

 

DO THEY EVEN PLAY THE PVE IN THEIR OWN GAME? SOLE HEALING THROUGHPUT SUPPORTS ARE NOT USED IN FRACTALS OR RAIDING IN ANY MEANINGFUL RATE.

For Raids/Fractals we are stuck on alac (power/condi) or condi dps. This spec doesn't have anything to do for fractal/raids. Besides Anet doesn't play fractals or raids to begin with. I already i am thinking to switch my main after what i saw last night.

Edited September 18, 2021 by SidewayS.3789

[Telgum.6071]

The new elite specializations seem to be very pvp/wvw oriented, Vindicator being a good example. Sure those AoE skills that escalate in function of how many enemies you hit may be useless on raids and most fractals, but will be a blast on competitive.

[Kleshr.7358]

I also plan on dropping revenant because of a lot of these design choices. Tired of only being relevant in content for having to press the Orders From Above button every 20s. So many different playstyles i'd love to play but they are so hardcore non-viable or literally unplayable (heal ren underwater). I don't see how this spec will break any molds or bring A) unique playstyle or B) unique utility

Here's what really feels bad and makes this spec so disappointing:

1. The spec doesn't bring useful utility to a group. PBAoE proc might, vigor? like cmon. No alac, not a lot of quickness? maybe some spammable stability?

2. With low boon/support focus, half the legend skills feel kind of useless. Heal Renegade is already useless af because ventari and kalla are unusable underwater, and no quick. I don't see how anyone could build a heal vindicator and fit.

3. Holy crap, more useless and costly elites. A suicide button.

4. Spec F2 button does fk-all for other legends, no trait synergy to expand on it from what we see. This makes the spec feel like we're getting forcefully shoehorned into only playing in the dual legend. if you choose to not use the dual legend, this elite spec gives you a different dodge and GS, that's it. wtf?

5. 2nd tier trait lines all revolving around fixing endurance generation feels like crap. You guys created the dodge problem, then solve the problem you created with traits, effectively robbing players of player agency/choice or three traits that could be useful instead of 3 different flavors of endurance gain. Don't solve a problem that you guys CREATED. feels cheap.

6. GS skills aren't original at all, and animations are ripped from others. budget, much?

 

I feel like this is a wannabe yoshimitsu pogo stick flavor RP spec

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

13 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

The new elite specializations seem to be very pvp/wvw oriented, Vindicator being a good example. Sure those AoE skills that escalate in function of how many enemies you hit may be useless on raids and most fractals, but will be a blast on competitive.

 
How can the new e-spe be pvp oriented ?
Only one dodge and it is very telegraphed. Which means, other player will avoid it and then, they will know you can't evade anymore. Big time to put you down.

It's even worse for WvW. How can you survive in WvW with only one dodge ?

[Za Shaloc.3908]

13 minutes ago, Parthenos Polias.5683 said:

 
How can the new e-spe be pvp oriented ?
Only one dodge and it is very telegraphed. Which means, other player will avoid it and then, they will know you can't evade anymore. Big time to put you down.

It's even worse for WvW. How can you survive in WvW with only one dodge ?

 

Bottom GM trait

Energy Sigil

Dodge food

Staff 3 

Staff 5 

Greatsword 4

F2

Perma supervigor

The evade slide on Saint Viktor

Saint Viktor urn quick tap when incoming damage is big

Kiting from Greatsword 3 and the Archemordus dash skill

Other legend skills: Riposting Shadows, RotGD, etc.

 

Honestly there are a lot of options, kinda like how Inspiration Signet Mirage can adapt to the one-dodge issue in PvP/WvW. I have roamed on Rev for years now and I am not afraid of the 1 dodge...well as long as I stick with the bottom GM trait because a 150-endurance dodge sounds like garbage for competitive. Rev has always been very good at chaining defensives and this will allow for even more chaining than before.

 

Who knows though...I accept that I could be wrong about all of this.

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Bottom GM trait

Energy Sigil

Dodge food

Staff 3 

Staff 5 

Greatsword 4

F2

Perma supervigor

The evade slide on Saint Viktor

Saint Viktor urn quick tap when incoming damage is big

Kiting from Greatsword 3 and the Archemordus dash skill

Other legend skills: Riposting Shadows, RotGD, etc.

 

Honestly there are a lot of options, kinda like how Inspiration Signet Mirage can adapt to the one-dodge issue in PvP/WvW. I have roamed on Rev for years now and I am not afraid of the 1 dodge...well as long as I stick with the bottom GM trait because a 150-endurance dodge sounds like garbage for competitive. Rev has always been very good at chaining defensives and this will allow for even more chaining than before.

 

Who knows though...I accept that I could be wrong about all of this.

You’re definitely onto something.

 

What I see a lot with other comments are people who don’t know how to theorycraft and expect things to be absolutely bonkers broken out of the box with little thought.

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

You’re definitely onto something.

 

What I see a lot with other comments are people who don’t know how to theorycraft and expect things to be absolutely bonkers broken out of the box with little thought.

How do you want to theorycraft with complete garbage coefficients? Gs has to carry the entire spec and it is quite op. The rest is kitten. Dodge takes almost as long as the bs 350k hit but hits for barely more than gs2. Alliance elite does garbage level damage aswell, the rest of the utilities are reaper shout rp stuff.

Want to know how bad it is? 1 aa chain does more dmg than dodge and takes like half the time. Sword 4 does more damage than spear of the wet noodle (alliance elite).

Power rev needed a power legend since hot. Shiro has 1 dps skill. Thats the only really damaging power skill on core legends aswell. The rest are all healing or utility or strict pvp. And these clowns introduced another heavily pvp utility focused joke legend. Current power rev consists of almost only autoattacks just because of this and this will continue with this kitten. Gs2 is again an incredible overloaded skill that has to carry the entire spec in pve so it has a chance to not completely suck. A 3sec cd low cost spamable move.

Spaming a single button over and over for dps is exactly what i wanted from rev... We will see the results on tuesday but i dont see this outdamaging power renegade.

 

3 of the normal utilities are straight copies from other legends. Leap and roll are from shiro, just weaker and cheaper. pure pvp stuff. Condi cleanse from ventari, both skills function the same.

I get the condi cleanse but shiro is the offensive power legend, 0 reason to copy 2 skills onto the ONLY OTHER DPS OPTION.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[RabbitUp.8294]

8 hours ago, Parthenos Polias.5683 said:

 
How can the new e-spe be pvp oriented ?
Only one dodge and it is very telegraphed. Which means, other player will avoid it and then, they will know you can't evade anymore. Big time to put you down.

It's even worse for WvW. How can you survive in WvW with only one dodge ?

Pick the bottom Master (vigor gives 75% end regen)

Take resolution (minor 25% end regen)

 

Enjoy 100% increased endurance regen

 

 

 

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 9/18/2021 at 3:35 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

When are you using Chilled to the Bone over flesh golem in PvE? NEVER. 2 sec stun and some small duration chill in exchange for nearly three times the cooldown of flesh golem, which does more CC bar damage, the main reason any of these elites would ever be used.

You just countered your own argument. Like you said, CttB has all these other problems that have nothing to do with target scaling. It could give 100 stacks of stability, and it would still be a subpar skill for pve.

 

Quote

And Vindicator greatsword has not a lot more going for it. It has exactly 2 DPS skills just like staff, the others are mobility/defensive skills with no PvE relevance.

Skill 2 has 3s cd, you don't need another dps skill.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I know this is the rev forum and all, but I have to say that I like the Reaper shouts.  When I'm not in a raid I prefer to use a hybrid well/shout build instead of the standard wells + minions + signet, because the shouts provide a good toolbox that affects a wide area.  

 

 

[lodjur.1284]

On 9/18/2021 at 2:35 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

(or rather, because dagger was good in pvp and pvp is all this game is ever balanced for when it comes to heavy handed nerfs).

That's just wrong tho.

For example

Signet of Inspiration and overall boon chrono got deleted cause of PvE.

Shiro originally was far worse in PvE than it is now. As it instead of a mini OWP it did quickness. 

Sword 3 was never a dps increase to use.

 

Reaper shouts are bad in PvE because they do things that aren't valued highly in PvE (Lifeforce, Condi clear, might, personal damage reduction, boon removal, unblockable, weakness, chill, personal stability). They would still be terrible there even if you always hit max targets. 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

5 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

 

Sword 3 was never a dps increase to use.

At release i used to reach 6k tooltip without single stack of might. It also did 2 attacks more and lasted 2sec

[draxynnic.3719]

8 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

At release i used to reach 6k tooltip without single stack of might. It also did 2 attacks more and lasted 2sec

That's kinda the point. They reduced the duration, and reduced the number of strikes, and therefore damage, accordingly. It was still often a DPS loss (albeit a small one) compared to just autoattacking.

 

Mind you, that fits the pre-raids philosophy of cooldown skills generally being more about utility than being 'use this on rotation to maximise damage' (except for elementalist).

[lodjur.1284]

43 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

At release i used to reach 6k tooltip without single stack of might. It also did 2 attacks more and lasted 2sec

That doesn't mean it was necessarily a dps increase to use. 

In a buffed PvE scenario of course.

Edited September 19, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Scoobaniec.9561]

49 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's kinda the point. They reduced the duration, and reduced the number of strikes, and therefore damage, accordingly. It was still often a DPS loss (albeit a small one) compared to just autoattacking.

 

Mind you, that fits the pre-raids philosophy of cooldown skills generally being more about utility than being 'use this on rotation to maximise damage' (except for elementalist).

Except using the very same build i have 3,5k tooltip these days. How much of a damage loss it actually is in %? UA used to deal more damage than simply autoattacking and mind you auto was also much stronger back then. Nobody could box rev with IO back then bc they would end up obligated in seconds and UA was dealing hefty damage as well. 15k UA in 2sec wasnt rare to see at all

[phokus.8934]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

How do you want to theorycraft with complete garbage coefficients? Gs has to carry the entire spec and it is quite op. The rest is kitten. Dodge takes almost as long as the bs 350k hit but hits for barely more than gs2. Alliance elite does garbage level damage aswell, the rest of the utilities are reaper shout rp stuff.

Want to know how bad it is? 1 aa chain does more dmg than dodge and takes like half the time. Sword 4 does more damage than spear of the wet noodle (alliance elite).

Power rev needed a power legend since hot. Shiro has 1 dps skill. Thats the only really damaging power skill on core legends aswell. The rest are all healing or utility or strict pvp. And these clowns introduced another heavily pvp utility focused joke legend. Current power rev consists of almost only autoattacks just because of this and this will continue with this kitten. Gs2 is again an incredible overloaded skill that has to carry the entire spec in pve so it has a chance to not completely suck. A 3sec cd low cost spamable move.

Spaming a single button over and over for dps is exactly what i wanted from rev... We will see the results on tuesday but i dont see this outdamaging power renegade.

 

3 of the normal utilities are straight copies from other legends. Leap and roll are from shiro, just weaker and cheaper. pure pvp stuff. Condi cleanse from ventari, both skills function the same.

I get the condi cleanse but shiro is the offensive power legend, 0 reason to copy 2 skills onto the ONLY OTHER DPS OPTION.

This tells me you don’t know how this class will work.

 

For reference I use WvW and pvp as the point.