Make Core Proffessions Specs

[Trevvster.6938]

This is simple, core Guardian etc. get a spec trait line and players can chose 3 other trait lines. 

eg. Engineer gets a new spec same logo called engineer with a new trait line, (devs can add whatever they wanted around balance)

after selecting the spec players can now choose from 3 other trait-lines

Thoughts ...

[Naxos.2503]

Err, you're essentially saying core should receive 4 trait lines instead of the normal 3 ? If that's the case, that'd be a monstrous balancing problem...

[Rogue.8235]

12 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

NO.......

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!

 

Anyways, this is just adding extra traits as the OP originally frames it.  That would be far too much power creep.

As for Core classes, the elite specializations need to have a trade off.  Instead of having 3 specializations you are replacing one for an elite specialization.  That's the trade off.  Now, whether that trade off exists in practice is what's up for debate.  That is also a debate the forums are very, very familiar with.

 

[Linken.6345]

Some delete shenanigans going on in this thread.

[Obtena.7952]

Nope ... especially considering no rationale provided for why this change should happen. 

[Trevvster.6938]

14 hours ago, Naxos.2503 said:

Err, you're essentially saying core should receive 4 trait lines instead of the normal 3 ? If that's the case, that'd be a monstrous balancing problem...

im saying all the specs should have 4, right now there is no spec identifying the core classes

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Better change would be make the profession mechanic traitline mutually exclusive with the e-spec traitlines. The e-spec traitlines change the profession mechanic afterall, so why should they be able to pick the core profession mechanic traitline?

 

THAT would fix a multitude of balance problems.

*Said with straight face in warrior*

[Dadnir.5038]

46 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Better change would be make the profession mechanic traitline mutually exclusive with the e-spec traitlines. The e-spec traitlines change the profession mechanic afterall, so why should they be able to pick the core profession mechanic traitline?

 

THAT would fix a multitude of balance problems.

*Said with straight face in warrior*

Is this self destructive impulses? I mean, warrior's e-specs without discipline is like sprinters without legs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

44 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Is this self destructive impulses? I mean, warrior's e-specs without discipline is like sprinters without legs.

Yes and no? I've played non discipline builds and done fine, just takes some time to unlearn the muscle memory.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

Yea I think if there were a way to make the base classes more viable compared to the elite, making the “class mechanic” traitline mutually exclusive with the especs would be the easiest way to do it. Will absolutely, for sure break some builds and classes though while some classes and builds won’t be affected as hard.

Warrior specs will probably be hit hard.

All Necromancer builds lose the buff to LF generation and shroud buffs.

Power Soulbeast gets kicked down again.

—Heal Scrapper loses all the healing bonuses in Inventions.—
EDIT: Tools is actually the proff mechanic trait line, not Inventions. Ignore this

Guardians lose the Virtues line.

 

Mixed feelings about if this type of change actually happened. It would definitely be a huge overhaul of how the classes and specs are balanced to one another, and would require a significant rebalance across all game modes, but it will definitely create areas for base classes to shine. The classes are also not power crept nearly as much since the especs (which in basically every situation are head over shoulders better than the base classes) no longer have insane synergy as a result of 3 highly specialized trait lines working together.

Obviously this doesn’t affect every class equally like I said above. DPS Weaver doesn’t have Arcane, so it’s damage in PvE is unaffected. Soulbeast loses the stat gains from Beastmastery when merged. Renegade no longer uses Invocation for its top DPS. Most other classes would have to transition to some other traitline that provides some secondary/tertiary synergy with their build (like pSoulbeast taking Skirmishing and Marksmanship instead of BM).

Edited September 22, 2021 by AlexndrTheGreat.8310

[Trevvster.6938]

21 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Better change would be make the profession mechanic traitline mutually exclusive with the e-spec traitlines. The e-spec traitlines change the profession mechanic afterall, so why should they be able to pick the core profession mechanic traitline?

 

THAT would fix a multitude of balance problems.

*Said with straight face in warrior*

thats true

[Trevvster.6938]

it would refresh the core classes, especially the traits that was deleted in the past, obviously this would need balance and would shake up everything 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 hours ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Yea I think if there were a way to make the base classes more viable compared to the elite, making the “class mechanic” traitline mutually exclusive with the especs would be the easiest way to do it. Will absolutely, for sure break some builds and classes though while some classes and builds won’t be affected as hard.

Warrior specs will probably be hit hard.

Not as hard as you think. Fast hands and Warrior's Sprint are just very very useful. Warrior can be played fine without Discipline, it just takes getting used to when you've used it for so long which is a steep hump to get over, but once you're over it it's fine.

15 hours ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

All Necromancer builds lose the buff to LF generation and shroud buffs.

Power Soulbeast gets kicked down again.

—Heal Scrapper loses all the healing bonuses in Inventions.—
EDIT: Tools is actually the proff mechanic trait line, not Inventions. Ignore this

Guardians lose the Virtues line.

Yeah, Reaper would lose damage and Scourge would lose out on a lot of burn, Power Soulbeast would lose out on stats and a few modifiers, but then that would curtail memebeasts, and DH+FB don't really have proper tradeoffs anyway. And yes I also play those classes.

15 hours ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Mixed feelings about if this type of change actually happened. It would definitely be a huge overhaul of how the classes and specs are balanced to one another, and would require a significant rebalance across all game modes, but it will definitely create areas for base classes to shine. The classes are also not power crept nearly as much since the especs (which in basically every situation are head over shoulders better than the base classes) no longer have insane synergy as a result of 3 highly specialized trait lines working together.

Obviously this doesn’t affect every class equally like I said above. DPS Weaver doesn’t have Arcane, so it’s damage in PvE is unaffected. Soulbeast loses the stat gains from Beastmastery when merged. Renegade no longer uses Invocation for its top DPS. Most other classes would have to transition to some other traitline that provides some secondary/tertiary synergy with their build (like pSoulbeast taking Skirmishing and Marksmanship instead of BM).

You're right that this would not affect every class equally as some core mechanic traitlines are kind of useless, but some offer way too many synergies with the e-spec traitlines and end up being broken. And yes, this would hurt Power Berserker cause of losing Axe Mastery, that would just be impetus to properly balance E-spec traitlines knowing that they can't access the core mechanic traitline anymore.

[Panda.1967]

On 9/21/2021 at 8:34 AM, Trevvster.6938 said:

im saying all the specs should have 4, right now there is no spec identifying the core classes

That’s not entirely true… each profession has one spec that is hyper focused on the core profession mechanic…

Elementalist - Arcane

Mesmer - Illusions

Necromancer - Soulreaping

Ranger - Beastmastery

Thief - Trickery

Engineer - Tools

Warrior - Discipline

Guardian - Virtues

Revenant - Invocation

Pretty much any specs that would be created to represent the core professions would be built around the same exact traits that these specs already offer…

Edited September 28, 2021 by Panda.1967

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again here. Lock especs out of the core mechanic traitlines. Buff the core mechanic traitlines. Move any weapon trait out of the core mechanic traitlines. While the especs should be locked out of the core traitlines, core should not be locked into the core mechanic traitline.

[Trevvster.6938]

agreed

On 9/21/2021 at 5:30 PM, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Yea I think if there were a way to make the base classes more viable compared to the elite, making the “class mechanic” traitline mutually exclusive with the especs would be the easiest way to do it. Will absolutely, for sure break some builds and classes though while some classes and builds won’t be affected as hard.

Warrior specs will probably be hit hard.

All Necromancer builds lose the buff to LF generation and shroud buffs.

Power Soulbeast gets kicked down again.

—Heal Scrapper loses all the healing bonuses in Inventions.—
EDIT: Tools is actually the proff mechanic trait line, not Inventions. Ignore this

Guardians lose the Virtues line.

 

Mixed feelings about if this type of change actually happened. It would definitely be a huge overhaul of how the classes and specs are balanced to one another, and would require a significant rebalance across all game modes, but it will definitely create areas for base classes to shine. The classes are also not power crept nearly as much since the especs (which in basically every situation are head over shoulders better than the base classes) no longer have insane synergy as a result of 3 highly specialized trait lines working together.

Obviously this doesn’t affect every class equally like I said above. DPS Weaver doesn’t have Arcane, so it’s damage in PvE is unaffected. Soulbeast loses the stat gains from Beastmastery when merged. Renegade no longer uses Invocation for its top DPS. Most other classes would have to transition to some other traitline that provides some secondary/tertiary synergy with their build (like pSoulbeast taking Skirmishing and Marksmanship instead of BM).

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 9/29/2021 at 9:53 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again here. Lock especs out of the core mechanic traitlines. Buff the core mechanic traitlines. Move any weapon trait out of the core mechanic traitlines. While the especs should be locked out of the core traitlines, core should not be locked into the core mechanic traitline.

 

What does this mean? 

 

Like, as a ranger playing SB or Druid, should I be locked out of: Marks, Skirm, Beastmastery, Wilderness Survive, and Nature Magic? Because weapon traits, condi clears, damage modifiers, etc. are ALL throughout those, to the point where it's ludicrous.  

 

I mean, I can see buffing the non-elite traitlines if you are playing core.  That would require thought though, and this is a company that thinks 500k dmg numbers are hilarious.  

Edited October 5, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

What does this mean? 

 

Like, as a ranger playing SB or Druid, should I be locked out of: Marks, Skirm, Beastmastery, Wilderness Survive, and Nature Magic? Because weapon traits, condi clears, damage modifiers, etc. are ALL throughout those, to the point where it's ludicrous.  

You did not read it completely before quoting me. It means Beastmastery for Druid and Soulbeast. I mention the core mechanic traitline, which for rangers is Beastmastery. I also say in the same thing you quoted that weapon traits would have to be moved out of said traitlines.

Just now, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I mean, I can see buffing the non-elite traitlines is you are playing core.  That would require thought though, and this is a company that thinks 500k dmg numbers are hilarious.  

The change I recommended would create a traitline for core that can be buffed without also buffing elite specs, which is an issue for certain elite specs where core is underperforming but the elites are not. As it stands now these core specs cannot be buffed without also buffing the elites.

[Shena Fu.5792]

you're just creating a new elite spec-- the 'core elite'. such that any core build that doesn't have this core elite is SOL. now the pure core build without this core elite will then complain being forced to include the core elite. 

 

Another solution is to make certain core traits perform better, either in absence of elite specced, and/or synergize with other core trait lines.

A) A trait like "This trait has bonus if you are not specced into an elite."

B) A trait like "This Beastmastery trait has bonus if you are specced into Wilderness Survival." Thus a core build specced into three core trait lines gets more bonuses from these combo traits. Obviously it's implied that core traits never combo with elite traits.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Shena Fu.5792

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

10 hours ago, Shena Fu.5792 said:

you're just creating a new elite spec-- the 'core elite'. such that any core build that doesn't have this core elite is SOL. now the pure core build without this core elite will then complain being forced to include the core elite. 

 

Another solution is to make certain core traits perform better, either in absence of elite specced, and/or synergize with other core trait lines.

A) A trait like "This trait has bonus if you are not specced into an elite."

B) A trait like "This Beastmastery trait has bonus if you are specced into Wilderness Survival." Thus a core build specced into three core trait lines gets more bonuses from these combo traits. Obviously it's implied that core traits never combo with elite traits.

I think in terms of simplicity, having one traitline that is unique to the core classes is much easier to manage than trying to sprinkle tons of extra bonuses everywhere throughout the class. I think the idea of some classes getting “screwed out” from not taking that “Core Elite” is still largely dependent on what role you are trying to accomplish with your build. Most builds at the core level are still really shallow in a way and can only fit certain roles so well.

Every class has a traitline roughly dedicated to every major role (2 or so for damage one being power and the other condi, 1 for survivability, 1 for support, 1 for the base mechanic). The base mechanic traitlines are already pretty broad in what they do, but in general they are offensive focused and grant some kind of bonus to using your class mechanic. A dps build for the base class would pretty much always consist of the two dps focused traitlines and then your Core Elite. Support builds would consist of your support traitline, any traitline that would give unique group bonuses (ie Spotter, EA, boons, etc) and then either a dps traitline or your Core Elite.

Even if the Core Elite remains untouched right now, core classes that already use it remain the same and core classes that aren’t already using it aren’t going to magically start using it. The build they’re going for is already working just fine without it (for example, Condi core necro in WvW using Curses, Blood Magic, and Death Magic). The biggest change would be reducing the power from elite specs that use the mechanic traitline.

As mentioned above, the core mechanic traitline is general is mostly damage focused. Using a power dps traitline + mechanic traitline + elite spec means they will pretty much always perform above and beyond what the core class can do. At least now for those specs there can be a way to tune the core class to do something rather than usually be worthless.

This can also help better refine the theme / focus of the elite specs, but that’s not really an intended goal, but is something I kind of thought about. For Ranger for example (a bad example for this), core Ranger’s mechanic is pet swap. A core Ranger with Beastmastery can heavily emphasize the pet swap mechanic. When using Druid you can still have the pet swap that is just as good as the normal Ranger one, but you’ll never be able to get “Pet Swap +” and instead have Celestial Avatar alongside a normal Pet Swap. An Engineer can heavily focus on their Tools mechanic, but a Holosmith with have the normal tools + Holoforge mechanic.

Obviously this would affect the trade offs significantly as different classes’s tradeoffs had more of an effect than others. Soulbeast lost pet swap because they have merge, Guardian’s and Mesmer elites all have different types of Shatters, Engineer only lost their F5 skill, etc. At least with a Core Elite, the devs can better balance around the power difference between an empowered core mechanic vs the core mechanic + new mechanic or just a new mechanic.

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

So.... latley I have been playing core warrior as shout healer.

And yes, also in raids.
Works rather well, tbh.

 

IMO it is more about older trait lines beeing "wonky" or "not up to par", while e-specs usually bring a lot of value.

 

Just imagine we only had EoD specs, you probably would see a lot of core beeing used.

But IMO HoT has quit a lot "straight upgrades" for some classes (Tempest, Berserker), while PoF has some crazy strong e-spec you pretty much always wanna use (Scourge, Firebrand)

 

 

[Trevvster.6938]

On 9/28/2021 at 9:34 AM, Panda.1967 said:

That’s not entirely true… each profession has one spec that is hyper focused on the core profession mechanic…

Elementalist - Arcane

Mesmer - Illusions

Necromancer - Soulreaping

Ranger - Beastmastery

Thief - Trickery

Engineer - Tools

Warrior - Discipline

Guardian - Virtues

Revenant - Invocation

Pretty much any specs that would be created to represent the core professions would be built around the same exact traits that these specs already offer…

i agree but currently we have DH, FB, TEMPEST, ETC  then we have core this makes no sense make a core spec with news traits eg. guardian and players can select 4 trait lines to select in total

[Jski.6180]

Core classes need a massive update at this point.

[Panda.1967]

1 hour ago, Trevvster.6938 said:

i agree but currently we have DH, FB, TEMPEST, ETC  then we have core this makes no sense make a core spec with news traits eg. guardian and players can select 4 trait lines to select in total

Don’t get me wrong… I understand the reasonings behind dedicated core spec suggestions… and they are good reasons… I just don’t really see a feasible way of them doing it that doesn’t result in them basically gutting an entire spec as is…

The best option would be for them do develop a whole new expanded core mechanic for each profession that they build the “core spec” around effectively adding a true trade-off for elite specs. But that is effectively a whole elite spec worth of work for each profession…

Edited October 22, 2021 by Panda.1967

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:41 PM, Panda.1967 said:

Don’t get me wrong… I understand the reasonings behind dedicated core spec suggestions… and they are good reasons… I just don’t really see a feasible way of them doing it that doesn’t result in them basically gutting an entire spec as is…

The best option would be for them do develop a whole new expanded core mechanic for each profession that they build the “core spec” around effectively adding a true trade-off for elite specs. But that is effectively a whole elite spec worth of work for each profession…

You do it by first locking the especs out of the core profession mechanic traitline. Move any weapon/utility skill trait out of said traitlines, and then put awesome things into the core profession mechanic traitlines that the especs now cannot access.