[Suggestions] Allow characters to use weapons from unlocked Elite Specialisations when that specialisation is not equipped

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

See title

Example: Elementalist with Tempest and Weaver unlocked should be able to equip Sword and Warhorn regardless of if they are set as either Elite specializations or core Elementalist.

This would also mean being able to equip both Sword and Warhorn at the same time on any of these.

 

This would allow for more flexible usage of weapons and provide more options and variety.

This would allow allow Revenant and Mesmer to use shields for extra defence stats rather then power.

For professions like Engineer with very restricted weapon choices this would really open up the profession in a much needed way.

 

As this would only be a chance to equipping the weapon and you would not get access to the specializations trait lines, specialisation mechanics or utility skills it should have limited impact on balance.

It would also prevent some current annoyances like having to change specialisations just to change skin on a weapon or being left without a useable weapon equip after changing specializations.

 

Discuss......

[Cindaria.6379]

I would agree since the point of the elite speccs are the mechanics, not only the weapon. In the start of GW2 ArenaNet told a lot about flexibility in fighting.

[Sigmoid.7082]

54 minutes ago, ShadowInTheVoid.9183 said:

Discuss......

Already has been. Several times. At length.

 

There was literally a thread last week about it and there are many many more. 

 

Still a no from me. Why?  A quick search for the old threads, again of which there are many, will net you the answers.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[pinerider.1950]

Your first example is why it probably can't work, at least for Ele.  The Weaver's sword skill 3 is determined by the two elements you're currently attuned to, which is a Weaver only mechanic.  They could just force it to use the pure element skills, but at least for me, outside of the fire/fire one, I prefer the mixed element 3 skills on the sword.

[Omega.6801]

Nah. The system is fine how it is.

Not trying to be offensive, but the fact that you write that classes need to equip shields to have defensive stats shows how deep into the game you probably are. Also, the problem of not having the weapon your newly onlocked elite uses is solved by collections and achievements. Engi has limited weapon choices because it has kits that basically serve as new weapons. Try playing the game for a few more hours before trying to "improve" it.

 

gl hf

Edited September 24, 2021 by lokh.2695

[Panda.1967]

I have been pushing for this since HoT... it is utterly ridiculous that the weapons are locked to the elite specs. Locking them behind the elite spec is one thing, but they shouldn't be locked TO them. I wouldn't even mind if they required the elite spec to be fully unlocked or if they added 1 last trait to be unlocked to fully unlock the weapon across all specs. Sure you might not get the full benefit out of a weapon if you don't use it's corresponding elite spec, but that is really no different than core weapons being used without their corresponding traits.

6 hours ago, pinerider.1950 said:

Your first example is why it probably can't work, at least for Ele.  The Weaver's sword skill 3 is determined by the two elements you're currently attuned to, which is a Weaver only mechanic.  They could just force it to use the pure element skills, but at least for me, outside of the fire/fire one, I prefer the mixed element 3 skills on the sword.

It 100% would be the pure element skill. If you equip a sword as a Weaver and change specs, you will see the greyed out skills for the pure element attunement you are currently in. If sword were unlocked for all elementalists, it would simply enable access to those skills, the dual element skills will always be a weaver exclusive. It is no different than a Weaver wielding a Scepter, Mainhand Dagger, or Staff. For a Weaver, those weapons have several additional skills for 3 based on dual attunement, but for all other elementalists they only have the 4 standard choices. An argument could be made that Hammer on Weaver would require them to make a bunch of new skills, but at the same time, due to how they have made Hammer 3 they could very easily just set up weaver with Hammer to either summon 2 orbs at once or always use the 2nd attunement for it instead of adding 6 new skills.

6 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Nah. The system is fine how it is.

It is far from fine. If you take a few minutes and actually look at the system objectively you would see this for yourself even. Build options are stifled by locking weapons to elite specs. Some elite spec weapons have skills that actually synergize better with different elite specs but can't be utilized by them... and with the Catalyst now, we have atleast 1 example of a weapon that has absolutely ZERO synergy with it's corresponding elite spec. As it is right now, Catalyst plays better with Dagger/Dagger or Staff and has nothing about it makes you even want the Hammer... However, Elementalist Hammer is far from a bad weapon... it's just simply locked to a spec that doesn't properly mesh with it.

Catalyst with Warhorn could be a very good combination, but with Warhorn locked to Tempest that combination can't ever be played. Mesmer Axe would actually work better on Chronomancer, Chronomancer has traits that synergize better with it's abilities. Mesmer Shield would also work amazingly with Mesmer Axe if they were permitted to be used together.

6 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Not trying to be offensive, but the fact that you write that classes need to equip shields to have defensive stats shows how deep into the game you probably are.

You seem to have misunderstood what they said. Currently the two professions that gain Shield via an Elite spec gain them as Power Weapons. It is generally assumed that if a Mesmer or a Revenant has a shield that they are playing a Power build, because Herald and Chronomancer both lean heavily towards Power builds. If a Mesmer or Revenant wanted to use a Shield simply for their defensive skills on the otherhand, they are currently forced into the elite specs of Herald and Chronomancer which heavily dictates their playstyle.

6 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Engi has limited weapon choices because it has kits that basically serve as new weapons.

This has been a very poor excuse since day 1. Kits are optional utility skills. If Engineer had Kits as their class mechanic instead of Toolbelt Skills then this would be a valid excuse for the abysmal weapon choice that Engineers have, but as Utility skills it is no different than Elementalist Conjures, Warrior Banners, or Guardian Tomes (at launch). Not every Engineer is going to use a Kit. Kits being the reason why Engineers have no weapon swap is limitation enough. Engineer has been kicked around constantly with all of it's problems dismissed on the grounds of "That's what Kits are for"... Seriously... EVERY SINGLE ISSUE... "That's what Kits are for". NO, Kits are NOT the solution to Engineer's problems... they are the CAUSE... and it's not that Kits are so ungodly good that they are the cause... no they are the cause, because those problems exist for the simple reason that the issues that lead to them have been ignored because of kits. Kits need to stop being used as an excuse to not fix Engineers problems. Their lack of weapons is one such problem. Literaly the ONLY "problem" engineer has that kits are a valid excuse for ignoring is their lack of in-combat weapon swap.

[Kalocin.5982]

I think there needs to be a whole new pass on all of the weapons, right now a lot of weapons are ignored on every single profession. Revamp the old weapons.

 

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

Pretty much all what Panda.1967 said.

 

Weavers using other weapons just adds the dual attunement skill to the existing skill 3, I can't see why using a sword restricted to pure attunments would cause problems. Using Warhorn on Weaver would have no impact on skills as doesn't use slot 3 so yeah, Hammer might need something but frankly slot 3 on hammer is it's weak link anyway in an otherwise interesting weapon.

 

 

It really is Engineer that most needs some love though.

I accept no weapon swap on Holosmith, especially as they're sticking with the choice on Bladesworn. I might even accept Kits as a reason for not allowing weapon swaps but even if you are willing to give up valuable utility slots for a Kit that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more then 3 weapon combinations on core + just the 1 weapon if you choose an elite specialisation.

 

In general giving more choices to core professions would help reinforce the idea that elite specialisations are another way to play rather then the only way to play.

 

[Teletric.3821]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:15 AM, ShadowInTheVoid.9183 said:

It really is Engineer that most needs some love though.

I accept no weapon swap on Holosmith, especially as they're sticking with the choice on Bladesworn. I might even accept Kits as a reason for not allowing weapon swaps but even if you are willing to give up valuable utility slots for a Kit that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more then 3 weapon combinations on core + just the 1 weapon if you choose an elite specialisation.

 

Agreed. Also, imagine if were to give Engineer an off-hand in a future elite spec... Y'know, the profession where your only option for a main-hand weapon is pistol.

[Jski.6180]

They should let just core class use all of the elite spec wepon making the core class into a wepon rack class. But they should not let elite spec use other elite spec weapons.

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

Wanting this more then ever if Engineer is only getting Mace offhand in End Of Dragons

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

agreed, a weapon is just a weapon, this nonsense of binding weapons to a specialty class discourages innovative play.

[Dawanarth.4601]

Though I would like to be able to use Expec weapon without using the Expec (Mainly to try SB on Herald) doesn't most of those weapon have a certain flair to them

Renegade: Open way for the arrow to pass through from a battlefield or something

Chronomancer: Time based weapon abilities

Holosmith: Sun/concentrated light based weapon abilities

Druid: Healing staff

Bladesworn: Mechanic tied to the Expec (Ammo, could still work but would be very bursty)

Deadeye: Mechanic tied to the Expec (Kneel)

...

 

[Panda.1967]

1 hour ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

Though I would like to be able to use Expec weapon without using the Expec (Mainly to try SB on Herald) doesn't most of those weapon have a certain flair to them

Renegade: Open way for the arrow to pass through from a battlefield or something

Chronomancer: Time based weapon abilities

Holosmith: Sun/concentrated light based weapon abilities

Druid: Healing staff

Bladesworn: Mechanic tied to the Expec (Ammo, could still work but would be very bursty)

Deadeye: Mechanic tied to the Expec (Kneel)

...

 

Renegade Shortbow on its own is really no different from other Revenant weapons… they tap into the mists to enhance the power of the weapon… the main difference for SB is that it can inflict burning… but that’s not special enough to make it elite spec only.

Chronomancer Shield is not much different from shield on any other profession. It has a block ability and a “bash” ability… the time theme to it is also not very pronounced… infact all of the abilities it uses can easily be connected to core Mesmer with zero effort.

Holosmith Sword… this one might pose some problems… but given the nature of the Engineer in general… it’s hardly outside the realm of reason.

Druid Staff still fits the central core theme of Ranger… a master of Nature… not every weapon has to be focused on damage either, look at Guardian Staff, it is also primarily a healing weapon…

Nothing about the Bladesworn’s offhand Pistol says it couldn’t fit in with a core warriors kit. And obviously the gunsabre would be Bladesworn exclusive, it is literally the profession mechanic… it isn’t an actual weapon, but rather a weapon kit ability.

Kneel isn’t a profession mechanic, it is literally skill 5 on the Deadeyes Rifle… the weapon would function the same across all thief specs… the Deadeye’s profession mechanic is Stealth Attack. The actual abilities of Deadeye’s Rifle are perfectly in line with a standard thief as well.

 

other elite spec weapons you didn’t mention…

Soulbeast Dagger is just a mainhand extension of Ranger’s Offhand Dagger.

Weaver Sword, Tempest Warhorn, and Catalyst Hammer are literally just Elementalist versions of these weapons… if you knew nothing about the elite specs you wouldn’t even think these weren’t just made for elementalist.

Mirage Axe is inspired by Mesmer Sword.

Virtuoso Dagger poses the most trouble out of any elite spec weapon simply because skill2 stocks a blade… to be made compatible with core Mesmer it would need to summon a clone instead… but since clones just auto attack with the weapon they were created with that is easily do able.

Firebrand Axe & Dragonhunter Longbow fit with core guardian just fine… they don’t do anything special that any other guardian weapon couldn’t do.

Willbender offhand Sword is simply an extension of Guardian mainhand Sword.

Vindicator Greatsword and Herald Shield are just like Any other Revenant weapons.

Reaper Greatsword, Scourge Torch, and Harbinger offhand Pistol are still just Necromancer weapons… yet again nothing about any of them says they should only work for their respective elite specs.

Scrapper Hammer is perfectly in theme with core engineer.

Spellbreaker Daggers despite the specialization theme these weapons are very mundane and act just like any other warrior weapon… the higher attack speed just make them more viable for interrupting foes and harassing spellcasters, something a warrior can’t do as effectively with other weapons…

Edited October 21, 2021 by Panda.1967

[Dawanarth.4601]

But isn't Warrior Pistol 4 just a skill that speed up the reload of Pistol 5 and Bladesword (I didn't get to try the Beta)

[Panda.1967]

8 minutes ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

But isn't Warrior Pistol 4 just a skill that speed up the reload of Pistol 5 and Bladesword (I didn't get to try the Beta)

You are thinking of the bladesworns elite skill, Tactical Reload…

while pistol 4, Gunstinger, does restore 3 ammo to pistol 5, Dragon’s Roar, it is also a melee attack that applies vulnerability to foes and grants the warrior aegis. Gunstinger also has no interaction with the gunsabre.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Panda.1967

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

1 hour ago, Panda.1967 said:

Renegade Shortbow on its own is really no different from other Revenant weapons… they tap into the mists to enhance the power of the weapon… the main difference for SB is that it can inflict burning… but that’s not special enough to make it elite spec only.

Chronomancer Shield is not much different from shield on any other profession. It has a block ability and a “bash” ability… the time theme to it is also not very pronounced… infact all of the abilities it uses can easily be connected to core Mesmer with zero effort.

Holosmith Sword… this one might pose some problems… but given the nature of the Engineer in general… it’s hardly outside the realm of reason.

Druid Staff still fits the central core theme of Ranger… a master of Nature… not every weapon has to be focused on damage either, look at Guardian Staff, it is also primarily a healing weapon…

Nothing about the Bladesworn’s offhand Pistol says it couldn’t fit in with a core warriors kit. And obviously the gunsabre would be Bladesworn exclusive, it is literally the profession mechanic… it isn’t an actual weapon, but rather a weapon kit ability.

Kneel isn’t a profession mechanic, it is literally skill 5 on the Deadeyes Rifle… the weapon would function the same across all thief specs… the Deadeye’s profession mechanic is Stealth Attack. The actual abilities of Deadeye’s Rifle are perfectly in line with a standard thief as well.

 

other elite spec weapons you didn’t mention…

Soulbeast Dagger is just a mainhand extension of Ranger’s Offhand Dagger.

Weaver Sword, Tempest Warhorn, and Catalyst Hammer are literally just Elementalist versions of these weapons… if you knew nothing about the elite specs you wouldn’t even think these weren’t just made for elementalist.

Mirage Axe is inspired by Mesmer Sword.

Virtuoso Dagger poses the most trouble out of any elite spec weapon simply because skill2 stocks a blade… to be made compatible with core Mesmer it would need to summon a clone instead… but since clones just auto attack with the weapon they were created with that is easily do able.

Firebrand Axe & Dragonhunter Longbow fit with core guardian just fine… they don’t do anything special that any other guardian weapon couldn’t do.

Willbender offhand Sword is simply an extension of Guardian mainhand Sword.

Vindicator Greatsword and Herald Shield are just like Any other Revenant weapons.

Reaper Greatsword, Scourge Torch, and Harbinger offhand Pistol are still just Necromancer weapons… yet again nothing about any of them says they should only work for their respective elite specs.

Scrapper Hammer is perfectly in theme with core engineer.

Spellbreaker Daggers despite the specialization theme these weapons are very mundane and act just like any other warrior weapon… the higher attack speed just make them more viable for interrupting foes and harassing spellcasters, something a warrior can’t do as effectively with other weapons…

Agreed with all of this really.

Holosmith would really just work the same as if you had Holosmith equip but and had no heat level. No damage bonus  but otherwise no great loss.

Without the E-spec your not going to have access to trait bonuses so there will be a trade-off but there will be always be always be other trait lines to help offset this.

[Mik.3401]

This idea looks fun on paper but I think in reality it would lead to big balance problems (or rather even bigger problems than now). Basically with each new spec the whole base 9 classes + previous elites would need to be reworked on ad hoc basis to prevent potential broken combos. So basically it would 3+ times the workload. This would not happen anyway.

Also it would kind of discourage ppl from buying expansions which is something Anet wouldn’t like surely.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Xephir.7635]

No, this not a good change at all, locking the weapon to a elite spec is what keeps the game balanced, imagine a fb with bow, or a herald with bow, wvw would be so unbalanced and pvp also. This wont work.

[Tabootrinket.2631]

The only concrete problem I see is : what happens when classes have circled through all existing weapons and we still need new e-spec ?

The current system would permit them to change the behavior of already used weapons depending on the specialization.

However, if they unlock weapons for all specs everytime a new spec is created, they’ll soon reach a dead end (for warriors first most likely).

Current system is future proof. However making that change would be like them eyeing the end of gw2

Edited October 22, 2021 by Tabootrinket.2631

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

10 hours ago, Tabootrinket.2631 said:

The only concrete problem I see is : what happens when classes have circled through all existing weapons and we still need new e-spec ?

The current system would permit them to change the behavior of already used weapons depending on the specialization.

However, if they unlock weapons for all specs everytime a new spec is created, they’ll soon reach a dead end (for warriors first most likely).

Current system is future proof. However making that change would be like them eyeing the end of gw2

That would be my 1 concern.

After EOD warriors will have 5 more weapons they can be given. (+ Trident if they ever wanted to do a more underwater focused expansion.)

Are we going to get more then 5 more expansions from GW2?

That would be 8 especs + core for every profession. 81 total combinations.

 

If the answer is yes then they could always it so especs that reuse a weapon could replace the weapon instead I guess.

 

 

If they were really that concerned then they could at least give a few extra weapons to the most at need core professions.

Which I guess really is Engineer.

 

[Mik.3401]

19 hours ago, Xephir.7635 said:

No, this not a good change at all, locking the weapon to a elite spec is what keeps the game balanced, imagine a fb with bow, or a herald with bow, wvw would be so unbalanced and pvp also. This wont work.

I agree, all the confused reactions  come from people who want it all and want it now No matter how it affexts the game

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

3 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I agree, all the confused reactions  come from people who want it all and want it now No matter how it affexts the game

Then please explain.

Can you give an example of a e-spec weapon which if equipped on core or another e-spec would have an unbalanced advantage over using that weapon on it's own spec?

[Dawanarth.4601]

If anything I would think that using a Expec weapon without it's associated expec would be detrimental. As the chosen Expec would most certainly buff another part of your kit than what you would have with your chosen weapon

But the same can be said about the core weapon I suppose.

[Panda.1967]

Here are some innate problems that exist with the current system…

1) Future elite spec weapons for Engineer… if it isn’t a two-handed weapon or a mainhand it is a bad weapon because the only mainhand option for core is pistol. I’m sure we all saw how pissed the engineer community was with the teaser art for the mechanist showing what looked to be an off-hand mace.

2) if they recycle weapons with new abilities later on then at some point they will either have to give warrior dual daggers again or risk angering the community by giving a single dagger that is either insanely OP or completely worthless…

3) If a future elite spec has a dual weapon that reuses a past elite spec weapon, it runs the same sort of issue as recycling warrior daggers.

4) they would only ever recycle elite spec weapons if they get to that point… core weapons will never see variations… which heavily restricts options for future elite specs. Unlocking the weapons fully opens up the possibility of recycling core weapons.