Epidemic needs a nerf/rework

[ROMANG.1903]

I know this sounds bad. I know everyone, including me, loves to play with their unique class tools. I wouldn't be suggesting this if Epidemic alone wasn't effectively excluding burst builds from CM fractals. The last thing I want is to turn this ability useless. But currently, it virtually makes entire builds sub-optimal.
I do not know for sure how to fix the ability. A couple of things I can think of are, reducing the transfer area, or limitting the condition transfer to only those that were applied by the necromancer using Epidemic.

A more fanciful approach... Would be to go the opposite way entirely, and give one class a way to do the same thing as Epidemic, but for burst damage: Apply a debuff on the current target that, for a few seconds, duplicates all direct damage to 5 ennemies in a 900 area around them, at 50% effectiveness.

Edited September 26, 2021 by ROMANG.1903

[Dadnir.5038]

Epidemic is a gimmick skill and honestly it shouldn't work the way it does. Personally I think it should copy the conditions that are on the caster instead of the conditions that are on it's foe. It would be logic as a corruption: You apply conditions on you then copy them onto your foe and nearby foes.

But... Well... The devs tend to cling to a few problematic designs for whatever reason and epidemic is one of those designs.

[CafPow.1542]

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You apply conditions on you then copy them onto your foe and nearby foes.

so like a staff 4 condi cleanse...

sounds kinda boring.

 

one could discuss a certain Nerf for this ability since it scales up crazy well with the amount of condi-builds / conditions on the Target.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

so like a staff 4 condi cleanse...

sounds kinda boring.

 

one could discuss a certain Nerf for this ability since it scales up crazy well with the amount of condi-builds / conditions on the Target.

Nope, without the cleanse.

[ZDragon.3046]

On 9/26/2021 at 3:39 PM, ROMANG.1903 said:

I know this sounds bad. I know everyone, including me, loves to play with their unique class tools. I wouldn't be suggesting this if Epidemic alone wasn't effectively excluding burst builds from CM fractals. The last thing I want is to turn this ability useless. But currently, it virtually makes entire builds sub-optimal.
I do not know for sure how to fix the ability. A couple of things I can think of are, reducing the transfer area, or limitting the condition transfer to only those that were applied by the necromancer using Epidemic.

A more fanciful approach... Would be to go the opposite way entirely, and give one class a way to do the same thing as Epidemic, but for burst damage: Apply a debuff on the current target that, for a few seconds, duplicates all direct damage to 5 ennemies in a 900 area around them, at 50% effectiveness.

If you can acknowledge this then sure you can do the same fore firebrands right?

Those things have been uber meta for a while and prevent most other types of support options from being anywhere near competitive.  Epidemic kinda scores pretty low on the list of things that "needs a change" by comparison to meta firebrands being locked into the majority of end game content including CMs 

What In terms of epidemic your change suggestion makes no sense thats not how an epidemic works That also would be very unhealthy for wvw. Because it is a skill mechanical change it will change in all modes. Skill number values can be split mechanical functions cannot. 

Let epidemic be viable in the few situations its actually viable to use in a few CMs and a few raid encounters here and there. 

If you can come up with another reason other than "It makes other builds sub optimal" then I'm game to hear it but this argument is pretty invalid when you look at the daily gate keeping firebrand does in the majority of content. 

I don't think "Other builds being sub optimal" in a few encounters is a good reason to change a skill unless we are willing to hit the bigger nails on the head first for doing the exact same thing.

Edited September 27, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[ROMANG.1903]

2 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

If you can acknowledge this then sure you can do the same fore firebrands right?

Those things have been uber meta for a while and prevent most other types of support options from being anywhere near competitive.  Epidemic kinda scores pretty low on the list of things that "needs a change" by comparison to meta firebrands being locked into the majority of end game content including CMs 

What In terms of epidemic your change suggestion makes no sense thats not how an epidemic works That also would be very unhealthy for wvw. Because it is a skill mechanical change it will change in all modes. Skill number values can be split mechanical functions cannot. 

Let epidemic be viable in the few situations its actually viable to use in a few CMs and a few raid encounters here and there. 

If you can come up with another reason other than "It makes other builds sub optimal" then I'm game to hear it but this argument is pretty invalid when you look at the daily gate keeping firebrand does in the majority of content. 

I don't think "Other builds being sub optimal" in a few encounters is a good reason to change a skill unless we are willing to hit the bigger nails on the head first for doing the exact same thing.

I also think the support/healer role in general (which includes Firebrand) needs to be tuned as to not monopolize the build options. I mean, a year or so ago it was all about chonomancers and druids, and now no one wants to see them? They all deserve to be viable.

Except, I never played support. Not even in the lowest skill tiers of the game. So I do not think it is my place to discuss these topics. But if you make a post about Firebrands needing to be tuned better to make room for others healers, you will have my full support.

However, I do main, and exclusively play in fractals, a burst DPS Weaver. My performance in this game, mechanical and numerical, is one of the few things I am confident about. Yet I witness first-hand the exclusion of burst DPS builds in CM fractal runs. We could easily CC the adds in Sunqua, it doesn't take much. But players want the easier, slightly less demanding option of "stack around the support and do your regular roation, ignoring all the mechanics".

That is on top of unbelievable KP requirements which already gatekeep newer players out of this content. I have my own opinions on that too, but I wanted to keep this post focused on a single topic.

As for World vs World, there are almost no utility skills that are useful in every game mode. And currently, in order for Epidemic to be viable in WvW, it needs to be overpowered in PvE. That is, in my opinion, even less healthy for the game.

Edited September 27, 2021 by ROMANG.1903

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, ROMANG.1903 said:

I also think the support/healer role in general (which includes Firebrand) needs to be tuned as to not monopolize the build options. I mean, a year or so ago it was all about chonomancers and druids, and now no one wants to see them? They all deserve to be viable.

Except, I never played support. Not even in the lowest skill tiers of the game. So I do not think it is my place to discuss these topics. But if you make a post about Firebrands needing to be tuned better to make room for others healers, you will have my full support.

However, I do main, and exclusively play in fractals, a burst DPS Weaver. My performance in this game, mechanical and numerical, is one of the few things I am confident about. Yet I witness first-hand the exclusion of burst DPS builds in CM fractal runs. We could easily CC the adds in Sunqua, it doesn't take much. But players want the easier, slightly less demanding option of "stack around the support and do your regular roation, ignoring all the mechanics".

That is on top of unbelievable KP requirements which already gatekeep newer players out of this content. I have my own opinions on that too, but I wanted to keep this post focused on a single topic.

As for World vs World, there are almost no utility skills that are useful in every game mode. And currently, in order for Epidemic to be viable in WvW, it needs to be overpowered in PvE. That is, in my opinion, even less healthy for the game.

Are you saying that players mentality is an issue so there is a need to nerf a skill?

Are you saying that you can't "stack around the support and do your regular rotation" when it's the very basic of PvE end game gameplay since release of the vanilla game?

Also, you're wrong, WvW balance and PvE balance are separated so the level required for epidemic to be viable in WvW have nothing to do with it being "OP" in PvE.

 

Personally I don't like Epidemic mechanically, because it is a mechanism that's to easy to abuse. But it's difficult to try to justify a nerf to epidemic on the basis of performance when the skill wasn't an issue until players specifically sought to exploit the mechanism more than 5 years after the release of the skill.

You can ask for a change of the skill because it's an open door to abuse and I'd 100% support you. However if what motivate you is the fact that it's the current most effective tactic available in the players' mind then, no, I won't agree with you, Epidemic have been nerfed more than enough after PoF release for this argument to be null and void.

[ROMANG.1903]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Are you saying that players mentality is an issue so there is a need to nerf a skill?

Yes? That is the basis of how you direct player behavior? Players will always go for the most optimal option, you can't expect them to do things differently when there's one, clear, better way to do them. So yes, this is a perfectly valid reason to nerf a skill.

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Are you saying that you can't "stack around the support and do your regular rotation" when it's the very basic of PvE end game gameplay since release of the vanilla game?

Oh well, why do we even have mechanics at this point? Might as well have every boss be a HP bag with a different coat of paint. That's gonna make the game interesting and fun to play!

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Also, you're wrong, WvW balance and PvE balance are separated so the level required for epidemic to be viable in WvW have nothing to do with it being "OP" in PvE.

Except I was responding to you, who said changing the skill in PvE would harm WvW. So, which is it? Because in both cases, I still think it needs to be nerfed for the health of PvE.

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

the skill wasn't an issue until players specifically sought to exploit the mechanism more than 5 years after the release of the skill.

I do not think that "players took a long time to figure it out" is a valid argument to leave an overpowered mechanic in the game.

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You can ask for a change of the skill because it's an open door to abuse and I'd 100% support you. However if what motivate you is the fact that it's the current most effective tactic available in the players' mind then, no, I won't agree with you, Epidemic have been nerfed more than enough after PoF release for this argument to be null and void.

I don't understand you. What does, to you, qualify as "abuse"? Because this skill alone is dictating the meta.

It is abuse because there's no other way to be as effective with the same ease. It is effective because people abuse its mechanic.

It's happening, currently, right now.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, ROMANG.1903 said:

Because this skill alone is dictating the meta.

It is abuse because there's no other way to be as effective with the same ease. It is effective because people abuse its mechanic.

It's happening, currently, right now.

The skill isn't dictating the meta, else it would have done so since release of the game. Players are the one that dictate the meta.

There is plenty of way to roll over PvE content just as easily as you do with epidemic. Sure right now, using the epidemic gimmick is the popular way but it doesn't mean that you can't use the many other way to do so.

 

Epidemic, in essence, is a trash mob clearing skill that necessite the support of a group to reach maximum efficiency. The necromancer would be hard pressed to build all the conditions alone and necromancer condi builds aren't known for their great ability to build boons. The main issue of this skill is that it's a remnant of the vanilla game era where conditions were oppressed by low stack caps and the end game only had 5 man content. 10 man content make it easier to integrate the skill within an efficient group and the loss of the low cap on condition stack make it easier to reach the maximum potential of the skill.

 

NB.:

2 hours ago, ROMANG.1903 said:

Oh well, why do we even have mechanics at this point? Might as well have every boss be a HP bag with a different coat of paint. That's gonna make the game interesting and fun to play!

I don't know for how long you've been playing this game but stacking in PvE has been the most effective strategy since release. It allow you to easily control your foes and benefit from the buff and heal that your support provide. Not wanting to accept this much put you in a category of player that play "outside" the meta and thus have little right to talk about "meta defining" things. Why would you care about meta thing if you don't want to even accept the basics gameplay that would be required of you within the meta?

[ROMANG.1903]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The skill isn't dictating the meta, else it would have done so since release of the game. Players are the one that dictate the meta.

You're saying yourself that the game evolved to make the skill more powerful.
Players don't dictate the meta, players *find* the meta, which is dictated by class design and balancing.

5 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

There is plenty of way to roll over PvE content just as easily as you do with epidemic. Sure right now, using the epidemic gimmick is the popular way but it doesn't mean that you can't use the many other way to do so.

I wish that were true, I wouldn't be here talking about it. Clearly you have never tried to find a CM group with a non-meta build. Players don't want to think about the game, group composition or mechanics. Even if you effectively perform equally, they will not take you, because doing it your way requires 5% more brain power.

12 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Epidemic, in essence, is a trash mob clearing skill that necessite the support of a group to reach maximum efficiency. The necromancer would be hard pressed to build all the conditions alone

You make it sound like that's a tradeoff, but in group content, there will always be a group. You can't make a class straight up better than the others and justify it by "it's only strong when you're playing the game normally". I can't think of any other single skill that benefits so much from your allies, excluding support of course but that's because you base your entire build around it.

Epidemic would be just as good as a trash-clearing skill if it copied only the caster's conditions, but at a higher efficiency. That way you don't demand players to base an entire group composition around it to buff it as much as possible.

19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't know for how long you've been playing this game but stacking in PvE has been the most effective strategy since release. It allow you to easily control your foes and benefit from the buff and heal that your support provide. Not wanting to accept this much put you in a category of player that play "outside" the meta and thus have little right to talk about "meta defining" things. Why would you care about meta thing if you don't want to even accept the basics gameplay that would be required of you within the meta?

Only recently has this allowed us to straight up ignore a boss's mechanics, stand inside every AOE, ignore adds or mechanics that damage you if you don't deal with them, because we can just spam heal through their damage and keep DPSing the boss. We've been really smart to come up with these tricks, but now we're using them to turn off our brains and sleep through the content, while excluding anyone who wants to actually have fun by doing anything slightly out of the ordinary.

[KrHome.1920]

Epidemic is generally great. It's just overnerfed.

The 1 second cast time in combination with the 50% reduced duration of the copied conditions makes it useless more often than not. You end up with a 1 or 2 second remianing condi duration on the targets - if the skill wasn't avoided with a random dodge already due to the long cast time in the first place.

If the cast time was 0.5 seconds I would run this skill in team fights even on power reaper and copy chills and vulnerability all day.

[Infusion.7149]

It's often used on 99CM for anomaly , 100CM for Sorrows (instead of CC), W1 Sabetha for any adds, W2 Sloth if the scourges actually know when to epi, W5 Soulless Horror for wurms and Tormented Dead, and W4 MO for Jade Scouts. It's important to remember context, you're unlikely to run this in competitive modes.

[CafPow.1542]

7 hours ago, ROMANG.1903 said:

Oh well, why do we even have mechanics at this point? Might as well have every boss be a HP bag with a different coat of paint. That's gonna make the game interesting and fun to play!

see, here i kinda get stuck.

afaik, Epidemic is pretty much a unique skill in the Game, and you advocate for killing it, but on the other hand you don't want the Game to be monotone like "every boss be a HP bag with a different coat of paint".

 

i see a contradiction here.

 

for my Taste, Epidemic is useful but in certain Situations, not always, so it's not a Mandatory skill. But i could agree on a discussion about making it a little bit less strong, not nerfing it to death or make it even worse then Staff 4 is (i mean come on lol).

i am also all in for a Second ability (on another class ofc) that does a similar Thing for Power Builds because 1 Necro with Epidemic boosts kinda all Condi-Builds, so having an alternative here would be nice.

 

but yea... that's just how i see it.

[ROMANG.1903]

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

and you advocate for killing it

I don't want any skill to be useless. I want it to be useful for what it was meant to do in the first place, deal with packs of mobs. But it doesn't need to be buffed by the entire group, that's the part that makes it overpowered. If the duration of copied conditions was increased in trade of having it only copy the necromancer's conditions, that would be perfectly fine in my eyes.

[ZDragon.3046]

16 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Are you saying that players mentality is an issue so there is a need to nerf a skill?

Are you saying that you can't "stack around the support and do your regular rotation" when it's the very basic of PvE end game gameplay since release of the vanilla game?

Also, you're wrong, WvW balance and PvE balance are separated so the level required for epidemic to be viable in WvW have nothing to do with it being "OP" in PvE.

 

Personally I don't like Epidemic mechanically, because it is a mechanism that's to easy to abuse. But it's difficult to try to justify a nerf to epidemic on the basis of performance when the skill wasn't an issue until players specifically sought to exploit the mechanism more than 5 years after the release of the skill.

You can ask for a change of the skill because it's an open door to abuse and I'd 100% support you. However if what motivate you is the fact that it's the current most effective tactic available in the players' mind then, no, I won't agree with you, Epidemic have been nerfed more than enough after PoF release for this argument to be null and void.

You are not wrong its easy to abuse in the right situation but those situations are few in number. We also cant ignore that basically anything in the game can be consider abusable if you are willing to setup the right situations for it. Epidemic has already undergone several changes and at this point its fairly lack luster in most situations except a few encounters here and there. While this would alone warrant it for a rework i personally cant think of anything that fits the skill name that would work across all game modes even if it was still more useful in some than others. Suggesting a nerf here just makes it another dead skill among necromancer's many utility skills particularly in pve.  Worst of all nerfing it a 3rd time might just see people try find away to bring more epi's rather than open up things for other classes.  

 

Going to the most effective tactic available thing.... again, there are bigger nails that need to be hit on the head before epidemic. Firebrand being the easiest one to pick out being extremely more META in its whole kit option list vs a single skill like epidemic. 

 

Keep in mind again that epidemic has already been nerfed for abuse and people actually stopped trying to abuse it in everyway possible roughly around that time. However it still does remain effective in a few encounters i think something being meta in a few encounters does not make it warrant for nerfs. If it was META in nearly every encounter to the point you don't take anything else then i see that as a problem. 

 

I would argue that it needs a change because its not useful in a wider range of encounters and not that it needs change for being super impactful in a single few encounters.  

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I'd say epidemic right now is pretty close to what you would want most utility skills to be: very powerful in the right situation in the right method of use.

 

Take an example of a situation where Epidemic is powerful, say, Soulless Horror.  How good is it when you epidemic the adds?  You're in the same situation, but now you're using the skill wrong and it's maybe tolerable in its effect.

 

It's a similar deal to Feedback and Wall of Reflection.  When you use it in the right situation and in the right manner, it is arguably the most powerful skill in the game.  Utility skills should have choices like these. 

 

Epidemic isn't so powerful that you can't get a group doing Mursaat Overseer if you're playing a non-Necro DPS, and that's the only encounter I'm aware of where stacking Necros is actually something people do specifically because the mechanics of the fight match up perfectly with what Epidemic does (right down to the radius).

[CafPow.1542]

17 hours ago, ROMANG.1903 said:

I don't want any skill to be useless. I want it to be useful for what it was meant to do in the first place, deal with packs of mobs. But it doesn't need to be buffed by the entire group, that's the part that makes it overpowered. If the duration of copied conditions was increased in trade of having it only copy the necromancer's conditions, that would be perfectly fine in my eyes.

okay then i misinterpreted it, or i mixed it up with something another one said in here.

as stated already, i am all ears for a discussion about some tuning. Although i'd prefer something else.

 

i prefer ... a change in Game-Design then. Like... if you have a Boss without any Adds, this skill is useless, right? So not creating fights with a lot of Adds, balances this as well, no?

 

i am by no means a PvE Player on High-Content so i can't know how many fights are out there, that "benefit" from this skill. So instead of nerfing the skill, nerf the Situations, this skill is useful. This creates the possibility of other Situations where we can use other Utilities that are fun aswell.

i prefer this kind of balancing.

 

 

/edit: i have a Question about Epidemic.

do the copied Conditions scale with my Gear or with the Gear the original Caster of the Condition that was applied wears? Cause you know, when i play power Reaper i think Epidemic is less useful because of lacking Condi-Damage on the Gear.

Edited September 29, 2021 by CafPow.1542

[Fizz.9384]

On 9/28/2021 at 7:12 PM, ZDragon.3046 said:

You are not wrong its easy to abuse in the right situation but those situations are few in number. We also cant ignore that basically anything in the game can be consider abusable if you are willing to setup the right situations for it. Epidemic has already undergone several changes and at this point its fairly lack luster in most situations except a few encounters here and there. While this would alone warrant it for a rework i personally cant think of anything that fits the skill name that would work across all game modes even if it was still more useful in some than others. Suggesting a nerf here just makes it another dead skill among necromancer's many utility skills particularly in pve.  Worst of all nerfing it a 3rd time might just see people try find away to bring more epi's rather than open up things for other classes.  

 

Going to the most effective tactic available thing.... again, there are bigger nails that need to be hit on the head before epidemic. Firebrand being the easiest one to pick out being extremely more META in its whole kit option list vs a single skill like epidemic. 

 

Keep in mind again that epidemic has already been nerfed for abuse and people actually stopped trying to abuse it in everyway possible roughly around that time. However it still does remain effective in a few encounters i think something being meta in a few encounters does not make it warrant for nerfs. If it was META in nearly every encounter to the point you don't take anything else then i see that as a problem. 

 

I would argue that it needs a change because its not useful in a wider range of encounters and not that it needs change for being super impactful in a single few encounters.  

OP is talking about fractal CMs. As a player who has been trying to get into CMs, it is incredibly frustrating to find that the only accepted group composition in pugs now is basically firebrand, alacren, 3x scourges. If I want to join groups for CMs I have to play one of those and not what I want to play. Even if I know my class well, play it well, and know the mechanics very well, if I want to do dps, I have to bring a scourge.

Scourge and epi are obviously beyond broken when a group comp like that has become standard. And it kills variety in the game. I agree with OP. As an alternative to nerfing epi, I would even suggest that if a fractal boss is vulnerable to condi (or if condi works well on a specific boss like Ai), then any adds in that encounter should have high resistance against condi. So sorrows and anomalies should be significantly more resistant to condi. This could force more varied group comps and it may even force players to respect mechanics again!

Edit: Also, yes, I'm very much in favor of heavily nerfing firebrand as well. IMO guardian should only be able to provide a couple boons to the group. It should not be able to diarrhea almost everything to the group as it currently can. Having said that, I think scourge is the bigger issue because scourge takes up 3/5 spots in a fractal party. A healbrand takes only one.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Fizz.9384

[Zenith.7301]

Epidemic needs a radius decrease so it can't cheese 100cm and 99 cm anymore. That alone would fix scourge dominance.

 

Unfortunately, all it would achieve is to tilt the balance to 4x Firebrands+1 alacrigade, as Firebrands has all the benefits of a condi class with exposed but functions effectively like a power burst class with little issue target swapping.

 

Epidemic needs its radius nerfed, Healbrand needs to lose the group aegis on heal mantra (make it heal allies for a larger amount, but only give aegis to the firebrand), and the exposed bar on fractals needs to just be a skill interrupt and not give any bonus damage to stop heavily advantaging good burst specs over others.

 

Fractals is going to be completely busted anyways once Bladesworn are released, since their burst is ridiculous. All the more reason to delete the damage taken bonus from the breakbar. Make breakbar function like in raids, an interrupt to deadly attacks. In fractals, since there's no deadly attacks besides Siax, just make not breaking the breakbar grant the boss a temporary enrage in damage and do an aura pulse corrupting boons as punishment.

Not removing the exposed bar and buffing up power damage taken just means that of Bladesworn doesn't take over in a 3xBS comp, either way it would be 3x dragonhunters instead. It's dumb.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Xenash.1245]

I mean I could say it might need a change even if I'm personally unsure about that right now, but I genuinely can't agree with you saying it would be just as good if it only copied the casters conditions. So I get your plight here but I also think that train of thought is incredibly dumb, no offense.

[anbujackson.9564]

Scourge in general does too much damage on single target already and its easy to keep your dps high since there is hardly anything that can go wrong and besides torch 4 the dps can be done in a wide range.

 

Now add to high single target dps the best cleave in the game (not mentioning the rest it has here). Even if you limit the copy of conditions to your own, like some suggested here, it wouldnt change too much tbh. The maximum stacks are 25. 

 

Scourge isn't just "good" in encounters with adds. People who say that have no idea what they are talking about. Epidemic just makes you think so. There are statics doing "scourge way" aka EVERY raid boss, even power favored ones. Think about that for a second.

 

Just like firebrand and renegade, scourge needs to get nerfed hard, no questions asked.

Edited October 8, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[ZDragon.3046]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:21 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

Scourge in general does too much damage on single target already and its easy to keep your dps high since there is hardly anything that can go wrong and besides torch 4 the dps can be done in a wide range.

 

Now add to high single target dps the best cleave in the game (not mentioning the rest it has here). Even if you limit the copy of conditions to your own, like some suggested here, it wouldnt change too much tbh. The maximum stacks are 25. 

 

Scourge isn't just "good" in encounters with adds. People who say that have no idea what they are talking about. Epidemic just makes you think so. There are statics doing "scourge way" aka EVERY raid boss, even power favored ones. Think about that for a second.

 

Just like firebrand and renegade, scourge needs to get nerfed hard, no questions asked.

Some of this is understandable some of it seems a bit meh to me

 

Scourge needs to be firmly placed in the support role (is what it was sold as at the release of PoF) in which case its damage goes down considerably and its supportive power increases (this would require anet actually give it boon support cause barriers alone are not good enough to make people want to use it as a support if its damage gets nuked)

OR

It loses all of its support features entirely and gets a rework into being just a pure damage role. (but then you have harbinger so this likely wont happen)

That said I would be fine with epidemic only applying to your own conditions on the idea that the previous nerfs are semi undone in the process. Durations copied to back to being a higher percentage since it is only applying conditions you applied there is no reason for the duration reduction to exists as that only exists in the first place to counteract the idea that you are throwing all conditions on the target and making them your own. (this is when epi was more viable in a wider spread of situations where people  performed epi bouncing as a meta thing) The nerf worked out because epi was is still useful in some situations but not nearly as abusable in wider areas of the game.

To be honest something like CM content is more likely to always be deadlocked to specific builds and classes. Whatever gets it done the fastest and easiest is always gonna be what people want to use. Expecting a wide verity in CM content specifically is a bit unrealistic imo. One must ask themselves is it really a class / skill issue or a community issue where players just dont want to enjoy the content. They just want to clear it with as little trouble and as quick as possible and for that specific things will always be locked in.

If this was a situational topic that was a bit more wide spread  through other game modes and areas of the game i could agree with more ease that perhaps epidemic needs a change for the better but with it being so specific to CMs its really hard to say. It will be really sad if anet takes a hammer to a whole elite or specific skill just because of a FRACTAL CM or two. when at that point the better solution would be to change the CM itself so that its a bit more epi proof. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[ZDragon.3046]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:51 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

It's often used on 99CM for anomaly , 100CM for Sorrows (instead of CC), W1 Sabetha for any adds, W2 Sloth if the scourges actually know when to epi, W5 Soulless Horror for wurms and Tormented Dead, and W4 MO for Jade Scouts. It's important to remember context, you're unlikely to run this in competitive modes.

about the only meta ones here in this list is realistically aside from CMs  are wings 4 MO and 5 SH

The other ones you pointed out for wing 1 wing 2  are not so much meta things and super optional as far as I know. People dont really demand the need for them there if your scourge happens to bring it cool but its not something thats like so good you cant pass up on it and run the risk of failing or hindering the clear. I usually hear request for mesmer pulls or even necro spectral grasp over epi and things of that nature specifically for wing 2.

People will always ask and demand for epi on  wing 5 SH and wing 4 MO because those fights can actually get problematic without them and requires even more stacked coordination without them should you choose not to run them. 

Realistically there are about 4 main areas currently at end game pve where you can make great use of epi wing 4 wing 5 and the CMs thats it. Sometimes it sees some use in WvW depending on the choke point situation. Everywhere else its super optional if not lackluster and a bit of a waste to use.

Edited October 10, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[Mell.4873]

Love this thread since its exactly on point. I mean I have my mirage keyboard playing down easily being able to pull 30k dps on some fights only to see the scourge doing 40k. Even firebrand beats me on some of the shorter fights with condi. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

22 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Love this thread since its exactly on point. I mean I have my mirage keyboard playing down easily being able to pull 30k dps on some fights only to see the scourge doing 40k. Even firebrand beats me on some of the shorter fights with condi. 

 

 

You're using your dpsmeter wrong.  They do 40k because they do mechanics/ trash mobs.
It doesn't mean they do 40k on boss, and the group couldn't do mechanics otherwise with same or close efficiency.

 

We could worry or question about how fast it clears some mechanics against particulars encounters or on contrary make it useful in more situations, but the "QQ 40k dps on 5 targets" isn't the issue.