It's not Catalyst, it's Core Ele that's weak

[JohnWater.5760]

I always said that.

A example of this annoying traitline is:

Only Fire Traitline gives you power AND only while attuned to Fire. If you swap to any other attunement you lose power attributes. Fire is useless while in other attunement.

This is the worse traitline in game, there are no other traitlines in the entire game that only work with a specific mechanic, not even Elementalist's other traitlines.

[Crackmonster.2790]

12 minutes ago, JohnWater.5760 said:

I always said that.

A example of this annoying traitline is:

Only Fire Traitline gives you power AND only while attuned to Fire. If you swap to any other attunement you lose power attributes. Fire is useless while in other attunement.

This is the worse traitline in game, there are no other traitlines in the entire game that only work with a specific mechanic, not even Elementalist's other traitlines.

Working with a specific mechanic is probably the most common denominator among tradelines laddie. Fire is designed to empower elementalist builds which rotate through fire frequently, and does that job very well. Arcane is the jack of all trades, all the others provide powers that specifically powers the individual elements in particular.

If you want to pick fire traitline and stay in air all the time, it's not wonder fire isn't benefitting you much, whereas if you are relying on fire and in particular condis, fire is a monster that empowers the fire playstyle. You really think thats bad design?

Edited September 29, 2021 by Crackmonster.2790

[Coldtart.4785]

A damage traitline that only does for a quarter of the time what other damage traitlines do all the time is bad design, yes.

[Sunshine.5014]

1 hour ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

A damage traitline that only does for a quarter of the time what other damage traitlines do all the time is bad design, yes.

Exactly this. Necro's trait for example, applies 100% of time. [Lingering Curse] has 100% uptime.

On the other hand, [Pyromancer's Training] only applies in 1/4 of the attunements. If both the traits are tuned by the same parameters, then Ele is underpowered by default, due to their uptime being a fraction of what other classes get for free.

 

[Tukaram.8256]

My main in GW was my elementalist, so when I GW2 came out, that was the first avatar I made.  He was the worst.  I kept playing him to see if he got any better at higher levels - he did not. Made a necro/minion master and fell in love!

 

I just dusted off my elementalist this week and he is not quite as bad I remember, but still pretty weak.  Core Ele needs a lot of updating. 😎

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

It's not the traitlines. They are quite powerful.  In fact elementalist almost has too much.

Its a problem ingrained in the viable weapon skills always being melee centric in combination with lowest health/armor.

Elementalist has SO much like its unreal how much it has really. From bunker builds with perma protection, blind every 8 seconds, frequent stability, potential crit immunity or practically immunity to condis when above 75% health, and heal amounts from skills without much effort that reached 4-5x the level of other classes and tbh im not sure there is one class that comes close to the insane self heals of the elementalist. It's basically healing to full every 10 seconds or so. The elementalists gets far more defensive powers than anything else i would almost dare claim. And huge offensive powers too. There are abilties when you have full might like primordial stance that does 60k condi damage before vuln in an area that follows you on an instant cast with 20 second cooldown. LOL It's really really sick.

It's all about the weapon skills forcing them into the most risk paired with the low health and armor which means that elementalists had to get sooo many extreme defensive powers to avoid the oneshots and survive.

If you ever gave elementalist a top tier and reliable ranged weapon where didnt have to go in melee all the time to do things, nothing would ever hurt them in bunker builds that would faceroll everything else.

The problem is not from the traitlines LOL, have you looked at other classes traitlines and compared? Its from the weapons skills forcing a risky gameplay on the lowest health/armor class.

They need to revamp weapons and make elementalist more ranged, and they need to change HP values between lowest and highest health like reduce the diff maybe 50% or so. Then after that they have to nerf lots of the traitlines so elementalist arent broken op in survival. And the combined self heal has to be cut more than in half.

Honestly, I've been wondering myself if ArenaNet just has to bite the bullet and bump elementalist health up to mesmer level.

 

I'm pretty sure the theory back in the day was that elementalist had less inherent defences than other professions, but could make up for it by having more active defences and enough damage that they can afford to use more defensive stats. The former is still true, but the need to normalise DPS figures for raids has pared elementalist in full glass stats down to having the same damage potential as other professions. If you don't have the damage advantage any more, it would make sense to take away the health disadvantage too.

 

Heck, it could be interesting to see what happens if they make that the benefit of being core: core elementalists get medium health instead of minimum health.

[Crackmonster.2790]

5 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

A damage traitline that only does for a quarter of the time what other damage traitlines do all the time is bad design, yes.

Youre intentionally trying to mislead. If youre spending 25% of your time in fire, while fire specced, youre  playing extremely bad using pure random action and no brain input.

The fact is, anyone speccing fire will use vastly more time in fire, you just said 25% to mislead making your point appear stronger, when really, it's a deception nothing more. Fire also has tons of benefits that don't require fire to be active.

If you understand elementalist design you would understand that it's meant to rotate elements, which ones are determined by your items and trait choices. Therefore, you will get a continuous benefit from fire throughout a fight as a good elementalist continually rotates.

In fact it lends a lot more identify to the specc that you must use skill to unleash specific powers that you choose to specialize in, rather than just putting some generic overall increase that "affects all".

Also, every single element traitline has a lot and some even  more advantages than fire, that are only active during that particular element. Just go and look at it....

Also to the nutter reply to yours youre so out of touch like the fire bonuses can reach 450 power when in fire, its a huge amount so yes it might not be active 100% uptime but its also a much larger number. It's not meant to be balanced around a 100% uptime so you cant just say oh but other class has 100% uptime on everything therefore any bonus of ours that is not is automatically weaker.... Like there is no logic there at all.

You folks just can't handle the complexity, you should roll a simpler class where you can just hug 1 weapon all the time and not worry about the details too much. Real talk. You will be happier than trying to change ele into a more generic style before you can be satisfied.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Crackmonster.2790

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

23 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

All these things you listed are not particularly problematic:

• Elemental Polyphony
• Empowering Flame
• Aeromancer's Training
• Piercing Shards
• Elemental Surge trait (it's 15s long so it's more of Arcane skills being not particularly strong with it besides Arcane Blast)

 

When you take them individually, no, they are not problematic and allows really pinpoint builds with a lot of synergy, of micro management.

But when you you need to combine, to build actively in your gameplay, a lot of them ... then also take into account you need active sustain, skills; for most of people it's just too hard. Or even when you just want to theorycraft.

Look at staff weaver : most of these traits are counterintuitive to each others.
You want to maximize your meteor shower. What is the best way ? Fire/fire for double elemental polyphony +Empowering Flame + Power overwhelming +  Elements of rage ? Or Air/Fire for Aeromancer's Training but without elements of rage ?
What if I'm Earth/Fire and I need to cast it right now ? While casting, do I need to switch to Fire/Earth or Air/earth for respective fire/air buffs and elemental polyphony, or to earth/earth for element's of rage buff ? Or earn element's of rage while it hits people but quickly swap to fire or air for elemental poplyphony etc before the end of the buff ?  What if I don't have the 8 mights for Power overwhelming ? Do I need to think again about the right attunements and buffs ? Etc etc, we can also consider the power/ferocity curve if you're not fully berserker/marauder, if you don't have precision...
It should not be like that. It should be "Elements of rage + meteor shower > All", period. And other buffs stack themself, but do not  come into conflict.

 

Look at fresh air ; it's just insane how many buffs you can stack or validate requests, and even with all them you're not even sure to scratch a core necro in shroud : fresh air, raging storm, arcane surge with arcane skill or fire traits pyromancer's trait, swift revenge, elements of rage, superior elements, glyph of EP, flash, ... and then yeah you have Elemental Polyphony, Empowering Flame, Aeromancer's Training that add to.
Even soulbeast which also rests enormously on buffs to pile doesn't have that much, and also have way stronger "passive" sustain or "stat free" sustain.

There is too much to consider, and that's why there is a very huge disparity between uber players and casuals, for elementalist.
That's why most of people who try fresh air, or go pvp with elem, just act like "Hmmm okai 🤣 Character select > Delete elementalist* "

 

I think Elementalist, and weaver above, have too much buffs in all specs (for personal dps, not even for the group) with too much conditions to be fulfilled or unintuitives, too complex.

You delete the elemental polyphony, the "when in air, earn twice the effect" etc, you buff skills, it is not THE unique solution to all elem's issues, but it's the first step; you throw the trashs, you clear the way for the next balance.

Edit by the way it'll be the same issue with Catalyst : Hardened Auras and Empowering Auras to 5 stacks max, Elemental Empowerment to 10 stacks with 5 TRAITS including the grandmaster one that will almost oblige the two other major ones or  aurasharing like tempest. THIS IS INSANE. WHAT THE HELL ANET ????????????????

Edited September 30, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[fuzzyp.6295]

10 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

Exactly this. Necro's trait for example, applies 100% of time. [Lingering Curse] has 100% uptime.

On the other hand, [Pyromancer's Training] only applies in 1/4 of the attunements. If both the traits are tuned by the same parameters, then Ele is underpowered by default, due to their uptime being a fraction of what other classes get for free.

 

I don't know if Lingering Curse is the best trait to compare to Pyromancer's Training. Lingering Curse is strong because you have to select it over two other options, its a Major Grandmaster Trait. Necros aren't getting it for free... meanwhile Pyromancer's Training is a minor trait that is applied just by taking the Fire Line, you're not really giving anything up for it. Elementalist are the ones getting free damage and  reduction with that minor that requires you give up nothing.

EDIT: Also, the extra damage we get from this trait does apply regardless of your attunement, right?  It says increased damage to burning foes, not just while in Fire, meaning you should get increased damage while in Air/Water/Earth as long as they're burning. The same thing can be said with Earth and Water, its only Air that specifically requires you to be in Air.

Compare Pyromancer's Training to Banshee Wail, where Necros have to not only choose it over two other triats but also only get the benefit added to 2 skills and we get ours for 5... well 4 on Weaver I guess if Dual Skills don't count.

Don't 't most Elementalist players just camp fire anyway nowadays in PvE? Or at the very least constantly swap back to it. It seems the Training Minor traits are meant to encourage you to be most effective in the trait line you choose, which is why it only applies to that one trait line.

I don't think the Training Minor traits are bad. There are worst traits that interact with their attunements out there... like Piercing Shards.

EDIT 2: Maybe Stone Heart or Pyromancer's Puissance would be a better trait to compare to Lingering Curse?

Edited September 30, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295
spelling, extra information.

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

When you take them individually, no, they are not problematic and allows really pinpoint builds with a lot of synergy, of micro management.

But when you you need to combine, to build actively in your gameplay, a lot of them ... then also take into account you need active sustain, skills; for most of people it's just too hard. Or even when you just want to theorycraft.

Look at staff weaver : most of these traits are counterintuitive to each others.
You want to maximize your meteor shower. What is the best way ? Fire/fire for double elemental polyphony +Empowering Flame + Power overwhelming +  Elements of rage ? Or Air/Fire for Aeromancer's Training but without elements of rage ?
What if I'm Earth/Fire and I need to cast it right now ? While casting, do I need to switch to Fire/Earth or Air/earth for respective fire/air buffs and elemental polyphony, or to earth/earth for element's of rage buff ? Or earn element's of rage while it hits people but quickly swap to fire or air for elemental poplyphony etc before the end of the buff ?  What if I don't have the 8 mights for Power overwhelming ? Do I need to think again about the right attunements and buffs ? Etc etc, we can also consider the power/ferocity curve if you're not fully berserker/marauder, if you don't have precision...
It should not be like that. It should be "Elements of rage + meteor shower > All", period. And other buffs stack themself, but do not  come into conflict.

 

Look at fresh air ; it's just insane how many buffs you can stack or validate requests, and even with all them you're not even sure to scratch a core necro in shroud : fresh air, raging storm, arcane surge with arcane skill or fire traits pyromancer's trait, swift revenge, elements of rage, superior elements, glyph of EP, flash, ... and then yeah you have Elemental Polyphony, Empowering Flame, Aeromancer's Training that add to.
Even soulbeast which also rests enormously on buffs to pile doesn't have that much, and also have way stronger "passive" sustain or "stat free" sustain.

There is too much to consider, and that's why there is a very huge disparity between uber players and casuals, for elementalist.
That's why most of people who try fresh air, or go pvp with elem, just act like "Hmmm okai 🤣 Character select > Delete elementalist* "

 

I think Elementalist, and weaver above, have too much buffs in all specs (for personal dps, not even for the group) with too much conditions to be fulfilled or unintuitives, too complex.

You delete the elemental polyphony, the "when in air, earn twice the effect" etc, you buff skills, it is not THE unique solution to all elem's issues, but it's the first step; you throw the trashs, you clear the way for the next balance.

Edit by the way it'll be the same issue with Catalyst : Hardened Auras and Empowering Auras to 5 stacks max, Elemental Empowerment to 10 stacks with 5 TRAITS including the grandmaster one that will almost oblige the two other major ones or  aurasharing like tempest. THIS IS INSANE. WHAT THE HELL ANET ????????????????

 

Well since staff was only recently used on WvW weavers and not in PVE, I would have to say your assessment with meteor shower in it is kind of flawed. Any PVE weaver is going to be going fire+earth or fire+air for power at a minimum.

Fresh air doesn't need buffs really, it's the air autoattacks that aren't up to date. Fresh air is used on both hybrid weaver and power tempest. If you air auto on scepter it is really depressing and while auto on sword is okay (used to be 20K DPS without EOR buff) and auto on dagger is mediocre, auto on staff is also sad (but since staff isn't relevant in PVE for the most part anymore people overlook it). The alternative to fresh air is bolt to the heart so any attunement camp rotation is going to use BttH. For a long time BttH was more DPS than FA power weaver also , just less forgiving.

Many of your core ele complaints are alleviated completely in a group scenario: power overwhelming (10+ might in PVE or 8+ might in WVW), raging storm (critical strike is not much to ask), swift revenge (weavers in WVW at least), etc. Aeromancer's Training at least provides a bonus outside of air attunement : your suggestion ought to be a split of Empowering Flame to be +75 power and double in fire attunement. Notice the bulk of those complaints are on weaver (EOR, swift revenge, superior elements for PVE). One of my friends who plays elementalist since launch in WVW despises weaver for this reason.

If pyromancer's puissance was restored to its original functionality at a minimum we could see a resurgence of power weavers in WVW : you still see some of them but there really isn't a strong case for power weaver over power tempest so long as superspeed scrappers are dominant (dual attacks miss often and meteor will not get many hits in). 10 stacks of might lost is a hefty price to pay because in general most skills give you 5 might at most save for Overload Fire , Chaos Vortex on mirage, and Empower on guardians. You don't camp air or earth at all so Empowering Flame isn't as problematic as you make it out to be. Also it is far more of a problem that glyph of elemental power is not based off spell usage as opposed to strikes (so it can be wasted on autos or multi-hit skills).

Catalyst has a whole different problem: F5 is meaningless for the most part unless you can use finishers often and the whole energy thing is sort of extra hoops for what is not going to be 100% uptime quickness unless you camp air with boon duration; hammer 3 is overpowered on large hitboxes due to functionality and requires using all 4 attunements to maximize effectiveness. Really hammer 3 passive should be primarily defensive until you unload it to trade off defense for damage. Hammer on earth also doesn't have bleed application on autoattack and given the slower overall attackspeed on hammer it won't proc burning precision/arcane precision as often as a result. There isn't enough help for the aura play (as opposed to tempest) or the jade orb in general.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

: your suggestion ought to be a split of Empowering Flame to be +75 power and double in fire attunement.

Empowering Flame : doesn't exist.
Or
Empowering Flame : +150 power period.

 

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Fresh air doesn't need buffs really

I was speaking for wvw/pvp. Same for staff weaver. Where you don't have quickness/alacrity/might to loop all buffs anyway. And yes, you want stack the maximum buffs into the short window for dual attacks chains for scepter fresh-air, it is almost twice the dps if you're able to stack buffs of ferocity, scholar, swift revenge, element's of rage, weakness, goep etc.

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Any PVE weaver is going to be going fire+earth or fire+air for power at a minimum.
[...]
Notice the bulk of those complaints are on weaver (EOR, swift revenge, superior elements for PVE).
[...]
You don't camp air or earth at all so Empowering Flame isn't as problematic as you make it out to be.
[...]

Sure. For pve players, for casual players; no buff is really problematic; you earn power, or you don't ... it's just bonus, it's okai if you don't fulfill the conditions on each buffs.

But, and with all weaver's traits and dual attacks, that is exactly why they nerf all core weapons, skills and even cut in half most of buffs.
Because a minor party of elem's consider all those traits, were able to maximize and take advantage of numerous buffs, like spamming air overload, storms, ice bow, into water attunement  while as you say most of players were just spamming fire, because "Fire = damage, right ?".
And it's not their fault, they do the same on every classes; except elem is way more complex than most of others specs, rests too much on all those "active" buffs, and developpers started to nerf elem because of their success.
 

Mender sword weaver was not just a clown holding camps with too much cleanse and too much evades; you had real and very high, power and condi dps potential too, combining superior element's, piercing shard, primordial stance, arcane precision, weaver's prowess, flow like water, and combos to earn mights, to earn fire aura ... with zero ferocity, zero condition damage.

They nerfed core elem even more, because of weaver. They nerfed sometimes the wrong traits, sometimes the right traits, but kept the trashs ones, the unitintuives ones, the too numerous ones.

 

Once again I'm not saying there are the unique issue of core or weaver; just most of elem don't get how important they are, don't even get how to make use of them; and that's why there is a huge disparity of players into elems, and so, unfair nerfs ...
I think, compared to most of classes, elem has too much buffs with too much conditions and constraints; they need to clear that. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Empowering Flame : doesn't exist.
Or
Empowering Flame : +150 power period.

 

I was speaking for wvw/pvp. Same for staff weaver. Where you don't have quickness/alacrity/might to loop all buffs anyway. And yes, you want stack the maximum buffs into the short window for dual attacks chains for scepter fresh-air, it is almost twice the dps if you're able to stack buffs of ferocity, scholar, swift revenge, element's of rage, weakness, goep etc.

Sure. For pve players, for casual players; no buff is really problematic; you earn power, or you don't ... it's just bonus, it's okai if you don't fulfill the conditions on each buffs.

But, and with all weaver's traits and dual attacks, that is exactly why they nerf all core weapons, skills and even cut in half most of buffs.
Because a minor party of elem's consider all those traits, were able to maximize and take advantage of numerous buffs, like spamming air overload, storms, ice bow, into water attunement  while as you say most of players were just spamming fire, because "Fire = damage, right ?".
And it's not their fault, they do the same on every classes; except elem is way more complex than most of others specs, rests too much on all those "active" buffs, and developpers started to nerf elem because of their success.
 

Mender sword weaver was not just a clown holding camps with too much cleanse and too much evades; you had real and very high, power and condi dps potential too, combining superior element's, piercing shard, primordial stance, arcane precision, weaver's prowess, flow like water, and combos to earn mights, to earn fire aura ... with zero ferocity, zero condition damage.

They nerfed core elem even more, because of weaver. They nerfed sometimes the wrong traits, sometimes the right traits, but kept the trashs ones, the unitintuives ones, the too numerous ones.

 

Once again I'm not saying there are the unique issue of core or weaver; just most of elem don't get how important they are, don't even get how to make use of them; and that's why there is a huge disparity of players into elems, and so, unfair nerfs ...
I think, compared to most of classes, elem has too much buffs with too much conditions and constraints; they need to clear that. 

Thing is mender's sword weaver has no ferocity from the amulet, which is why fire weaver is now sometimes played and not mender's (avatar now). In addition in terms of team support you only really have water attunement to rely on which means unlike fire weaver you won't be pumping out burn. Unlike core guard, scourge/core necro, holo , support spellbreaker, aura tempest, scrapper, renegade, druid, etc. the team support is far weaker.

Meta PVP weavers aren't even running EOR at all, they use the barrier on dodge so I don't understand the tirade about damage modifiers for competitive modes whatsoever.

[Mell.4873]

I think the main problem is nothing to do with ele, it's to do with how we play classes. We only use glass cannons or full healers/buffers.

Ele is all of them, filling multiple roles so something like celestial gear would make them more tanky but also reducing there dps. Since everyone cares about the numbers and buff uptimes no one would run celestial in a fractal or raid. It is probably only used in wvw. 

 

I don't like the meta at all for pve and would rather see people contribute there individual classes unique aspect to a group, rather than damage number. 

[Puck.3697]

Tbh it's both. 

Core ele has multitudes of problems that need fixing. It has no real strength and each elite has 0 trade off because there's nothing to effectively trade off. 

Catalyst has 0 mechanic. Which makes it play like effectively core should play like lol 

Catalyst is core ele with huge stat bonuses effectively with a F5 to give boons. 

Maybe that's what they should do. 

Roll hammer + catalyst into core ele then create a new elite that actually feels like a elite. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Thing is mender's sword weaver has no ferocity from the amulet, which is why fire weaver is now sometimes played and not mender's (avatar now). In addition in terms of team support you only really have water attunement to rely on which means unlike fire weaver you won't be pumping out burn. Unlike core guard, scourge/core necro, holo , support spellbreaker, aura tempest, scrapper, renegade, druid, etc. the team support is far weaker.

Meta PVP weavers aren't even running EOR at all, they use the barrier on dodge so I don't understand the tirade about damage modifiers for competitive modes whatsoever.

 

 

This is anachronistic.
Primordial stance was different, same for power and healing base and coef, for piercing shard, flow like water,  weaver's prowess, riptide, polaric leap, but even runes (they nerfed 2 runes in pvp because of weaver, runes of Evasion and an other one).
You didn't need ferocity nor condition damage do deal 6k burning and 6k on flame uprising. But Mender sword is may be the first meta-build of weaver, and IMO the beginning of a widened gap between those who succeeded in adapting to all nerfs and the complexity, and the others who just see a more and more useless class in every game modes.

 

Meta PvP weaver  doesn't exist. I don't see weaver in ATM. And even if I see one, you're right they don't play EoR, but it's not the only fault of the trait  on itself.

But WvW exist too, and because WvW exist you want EoR in your underwhelming fresh-air build to buff your underwhelming scepter fresh-air build, (Or your staff weaver) for the extra power bonus, but also because of the freedom of stats and runes, and ascended, infusion, food... you can reach the 100% precision with a good amount of vitality too. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Infusion.7149]

19 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

This is anachronistic.
Primordial stance was different, same for power and healing base and coef, for piercing shard, flow like water,  weaver's prowess, riptide, polaric leap, but even runes (they nerfed 2 runes in pvp because of weaver, runes of Evasion and an other one).
You didn't need ferocity nor condition damage do deal 6k burning and 6k on flame uprising. But Mender sword is may be the first meta-build of weaver, and IMO the beginning of a widened gap between those who succeeded in adapting to all nerfs and the complexity, and the others who just see an useless class in every game modes.

 

Meta PvP weaver  doesn't exist. I don't see weaver in ATM. And even if I see one, you're right they don't play EoR, but it's not the fault of the trait  on itself.

But WvW exist too, and because WvW exist you want EoR in your underwhelming fresh-air build to buff your underwhelming scepter fresh-air build, (Or your staff weaver) for the extra power bonus, but also because of the freedom of stats and runes, and ascended, infusion, food... you can reach the 100% precision with a good amount of vitality too. 

https://gw2mists.com/builds/elementalist/dps-weaver   , https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Staff_Backline
Bolt to the Heart is run on WVW weaver. I have literally never seen anyone run fresh air unless they are on a scepter build or on DPS tempest (not weaver), which is niche in itself. DPS tempest wasn't viable in large scale WVW til the retaliation change.

Your whole point about burning just is meaningless because mender's has no condition damage stat. Burning is (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 per second per stack , this is not opinion it's just a fact. To hit 6K ticks you need insanely many stacks without condition damage. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. Sage and mender's are completely two different things (sage is normally used on fire weaver).

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Fire_Weaver
https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/elementalist
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/elementalist/fire-weaver-r6/

See old mender weaver: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Mender's_Sword

 

Fire weaver was used in August final mAT and even this month so I'm not sure what that bit about "never seen one" is about either.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Bolt to the Heart is run on WVW weaver. I have literally never seen anyone run fresh air unless they are on a scepter build

 

16 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

But WvW exist too, and because WvW exist you want EoR in your underwhelming fresh-air build to buff your underwhelming scepter fresh-air build, (Or your staff weaver)

 

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Your whole point about burning just is meaningless because mender's has no condition damage stat.

 

17 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

This is anachronistic.
Primordial stance was different, same for power and healing base and coef, for piercing shard, flow like water,  weaver's prowess, riptide, polaric leap, but even runes (they nerfed 2 runes in pvp because of weaver, runes of Evasion and an other one).
You didn't need ferocity nor condition damage do deal 6k burning and 6k on flame uprising. But Mender sword is may be the first meta-build of weaver, and IMO the beginning of a widened gap between those who succeeded in adapting to all nerfs and the complexity, and the others who just see a more and more useless class in every game modes.

 

3 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

and combos to earn mights, to earn fire aura ... with zero ferocity, zero condition damage.

And the "old mender sword" is already updated to include differents balance and progress on a cap-holder spec.

But you can also look at the video guide if you still don't want to read the entirety of my message or don't believe me.

 

 

But we engage in diverse arguments far from the subject.

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

 

 

And the "old mender sword" is already updated to include differents balance and progress on a cap-holder spec.

But you can also look at the video guide if you still don't want to read the entirety of my message or don't believe me.

 

 

But we engage in diverse arguments far from the subject.

It's not far from the subject. The subject is about core traitlines being weak, which they are not as terrible as made out to be. Your examples were all about weavers, when I showed you the clear evidence people still do run them in PVP (and WVW) but with none of the stated damage modifiers that you claim are a problem (i.e. Glyph of Elemental power , weaver's prowess, or arcane surge).

Gods of PVP hasn't been updated for quite some time. If you want to argue it's been updated you can just look at archive.org for your site of choice, the build hasn't changed drastically.

Also might doesn't magically make 6K burn ticks. The burning damage formula is the same if you have 0 might or 25 might (750 condition damage if you have zero to start with). You'd need about 24 stacks of burning.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also might doesn't magically make 6K burn ticks. The burning damage formula is the same if you have 0 might or 25 might (750 condition damage if you have zero to start with). You'd need about 24 stacks of burning.

 

You might forget weaver's prowess, weaveself buff, primordial stance with fire/air. But, omg, may be it was 5.3k and not 6k, my bad.

 

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's not far from the subject. The subject is about core traitlines being weak, which they are not as terrible as made out to be. Your examples were all about weavers, when I showed you the clear evidence people still do run them in PVP (and WVW) but with none of the stated damage modifiers that you claim are a problem (i.e. Glyph of Elemental power , weaver's prowess, or arcane surge).

 

 

No. You avoid words intentionnaly to make weird interrogation and dig far from the subject.
Plus, I may repeat again,Weaver enhance all aspects of core elem; if you want to fix core elem, you have to go through weaver first. This is my point.

Edit, oops there was ONE weaver in finale on the 2 videos. My bad, you find 2 weavers in ATM since february 2020 patch. But what is your point of this nitpicking ? On exception, and weaver is totally viable at 1 against 15 necros, 15 revenants .... ? I don't watch full tournaments  often enough ?

 

Fresh air :

 

Fresh air ON PVP

 

D/D fresh air build

Fire/Air fresh air and full power modificators

 

That is an other point I wanted to enlight in the thread. Big disparity between "metabattle" players with a lot of sustain to compensate for; and personnal builds / uber elementalists who knows a lot about attunements swap tips, differents buffs and combinations.
Of course it's easier in WvW due to ascended, food etc, gameplay without node, and in pve too ... but it exists. I

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Coldtart.4785]

12 hours ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

Youre intentionally trying to mislead. If youre spending 25% of your time in fire, while fire specced, youre  playing extremely bad using pure random action and no brain input.

The fact is, anyone speccing fire will use vastly more time in fire, you just said 25% to mislead making your point appear stronger, when really, it's a deception nothing more. Fire also has tons of benefits that don't require fire to be active.

If you understand elementalist design you would understand that it's meant to rotate elements, which ones are determined by your items and trait choices. Therefore, you will get a continuous benefit from fire throughout a fight as a good elementalist continually rotates.

In fact it lends a lot more identify to the specc that you must use skill to unleash specific powers that you choose to specialize in, rather than just putting some generic overall increase that "affects all".

Also, every single element traitline has a lot and some even  more advantages than fire, that are only active during that particular element. Just go and look at it....

Also to the nutter reply to yours youre so out of touch like the fire bonuses can reach 450 power when in fire, its a huge amount so yes it might not be active 100% uptime but its also a much larger number. It's not meant to be balanced around a 100% uptime so you cant just say oh but other class has 100% uptime on everything therefore any bonus of ours that is not is automatically weaker.... Like there is no logic there at all.

You folks just can't handle the complexity, you should roll a simpler class where you can just hug 1 weapon all the time and not worry about the details too much. Real talk. You will be happier than trying to change ele into a more generic style before you can be satisfied.

Fire's maximum benefit to power damage:

+450 power (lose 300 of that if you leave fire)

+21% damage

 

Strength's maximum benefit to power damage

+490 power (lose 120 of that if you leave GS)

+33.3% damage

[Infusion.7149]

37 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

You might forget weaver's prowess, weaveself buff, primordial stance with fire/air. But, omg, may be it was 5.3k and not 6k, my bad.

 

 

 

No. You avoid words intentionnaly to make weird interrogation and dig far from the subject.
Plus, I may repeat again,Weaver enhance all aspects of core elem; if you want to fix core elem, you have to go through weaver first. This is my point.

Edit, oops they were on finale. My bad, you find 2 weavers in ATM since february 2020 patch.

 

Oops fresh air

 

Oops, fresh air ON PVP

 

D/D fresh air build

Fire/Air fresh air and full power modificators

That is an other point I wanted to enlight in the thread. Big disparity between "metabattle" players with a lot of sustain to compensate for; and personnal builds / uber elementalists who knows a lot about attunements swap tips, differents buffs and combinations.
Of course it's easier in WvW due to ascended, food etc, gameplay without node, and in pve too ... but it exists.

So the thread is about catalyst being weak because of core traitlines but you went on another tirade about weavers.
Also most people play with heralds , firebrands, and scrappers in WVW which means that might, fury, and swiftness/superspeed are more or less covered even if you don't run Raging Storm (a core trait). Even quickness has high uptime because scrapper quickness is not split whatsoever between PVE and WVW.
Mentioning fire weaver or anything burning is completely irrelevant unless you only roam in WVW.

• Weave self = weaver, not core.
• Weaver's Prowess = weaver, not core.
• Primordial stance = weaver, not core.

Your claim was there are no weavers in PVP. Just the existence of ONE in monthly AT (in the past two months all the way to quarter/semi finals no less) disproves your claim.

It's possible to play auramancer both in PVP and WVW (more common in WVW than PVP) and if the RNG wasn't bad on small hitboxes (lightning orb) tempest would actually be rather decent given it has less reliance on others for might. If catalyst is fixed for next beta it could be catalyst is the casual ele spec with less DPS than weaver but more consistency and ease of use.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Your claim was there are no weavers in PVP. Just the existence of ONE in monthly AT (in the past two months all the way to quarter/semi finals no less) disproves your claim.

 

Nitpicking... Plus I claimed I didn"t see weaver in ATM, nuance. 
Please could we stop fighting on words, etc ? Are we enemies now or something ?

 

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So the thread is about catalyst being weak because of core traitlines but you went on another tirade about weavers.

 

Because you argue and dig on my point on weaver's traits. So yeah, I drag on weaver too  ... Endless circle.
But we can come back on Aeromancer's training, power overwhleming etc, and catalyst.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also most people play with heralds , firebrands, and scrappers in WVW which means that might, fury, and swiftness/superspeed are more or less covered even if you don't run Raging Storm (a core trait). Even quickness has high uptime because scrapper quickness is not split whatsoever between PVE and WVW.
Mentioning fire weaver or anything burning is completely irrelevant unless you only roam in WVW.

 

I don't see where you are going with this.
I don't understand if you answer to me, to a particular point or it's just general, because i've made no mention of fireweaver, or not on my own initiative; but you did, for pvp, not for wvw roaming.

 

26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Weave self = weaver, not core.
• Weaver's Prowess = weaver, not core.
• Primordial stance = weaver, not core.

 

So we agree. Core is weak.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[fuzzyp.6295]

46 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Fire's maximum benefit to power damage:

+450 power (lose 300 of that if you leave fire)

+21% damage

 

Strength's maximum benefit to power damage

+490 power (lose 120 of that if you leave GS)

+33.3% damage

There is a real danger in trying to compare trait lines based only on flat stats. This is vastly over simplifying what both trait lines offer to the player and doesn't take into consideration what it takes to achieve those stats or how the trait line plays with other aspects of the class.

For example, in order for a Warrior to reach that max they need to run Greatsword regardless of how they play and has to turn down two additional traits that may be more beneficial to them. Yet for Elementalist about 150 of that power and 10% of that damage increase are given to the Elementalist regardless of weapon choice and have no trade off whatso ever other than picking Fire.

I get what you're trying to say about loss of damage of Fire vs Greatsword but I don't think straight comparing these lines really makes a compelling argument, it just highlights two different trait lines flat stat gains and nothing else they offer. That's not helpful.

Edited October 1, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

Nitpicking... Plus I claimed I didn"t see weaver in ATM, nuance. 
Please could we stop fighting on words, etc ? Are we enemies now or something ?

 

 

Because you argue and dig on my point on weaver's traits. So yeah, I drag on weaver too  ... Endless circle.
But we can come back on Aeromancer's training, power overwhleming etc, and catalyst.

 

I'm not enemies with you, don't know why you would think that. It just annoys me when people think core traitlines need massive buffs. Weaver specifically needs some help in playability, that I could agree on. The rest is really conditional on what sort of performance you expect out of core ele. It's perfectly capable of 30K even on core as far as PVE goes , so really the elite specs need group support (see tempest) or even more DPS (see weaver). We would not have this discussion if tempest wasn't so RNG-based on small hitboxes. For WVW I think if pyromancer's puissance were still functional and superspeed were not as rampant you'd see more auramancers and power weavers (to a lesser extent) alike.

Catalyst's shortcoming is being diagnosed as being due to core traitlines, which isn't the issue. The problem is you wouldn't run catalyst over core ele unless you run hammer (with the whole hammer 3 gimmick) or use jade orb. If hammer doesn't pan out to be at least as good as dagger or scepter then it is a dead spec. The only uniqueness on F5 (jade sphere) is quickness but because it is dependent on energy and only on air attunement (which isn't great to camp on dagger and especially not hammer) it needs rethinking.

The only thing that has me remotely interested in catalyst right now is the potential to use water attunement for DPS.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149