Your design philosophies will cost you

[draxynnic.3719]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

For things that take more then 5s to kill. Sure, but then they also have to not move, not CC, and not one shot your while you charge your lolomegalazer.

Lord Hizen's video showed use of flickerstep and the aegis to block or avoid enough of the attacks that Immortal Dragon can cover the rest, and part of my point was that adrenaline in general isn't great against trash mobs (there are skills that can get you the adrenaline faster, but if it's going to die in under 5s anyway, why bother?).

 

A lot of bosses are fairly stationary (and you obviously wouldn't use it against, say, largos twins that are both highly mobile and throw around a lot of stuff you need to dodge), and I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to pull it off. But it does seem to be workable... in PvE. In part because of how inflated the damage is.

 

Competitive modes are an entirely different ball game, though. Only way I can see it working at all is by not playing it the way it's designed to be played, and even then I have my doubts.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:47 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

 

Then again, it's not like a company should listen to a bunch of weirdos playing a class for 2k to 8k hours in the past years. 

 

You gotta pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers in this racket.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:59 AM, Raizel.1839 said:

What is it that you don't like in bladesworn? 

I don't know about competitive modes (and I don't care because I never play pvp/wvw), but I played bladesworn in pve and I loved it.

What exactly are you gonna use Bladesworn for? 

Everything works in Openworld/Story, so that doesn't matter. 

Is it good power dps? If yes. Better then Berserker? 2 Power Dps options are not needed. One will always be better than the other. 

It's useless in PvP and Wvw. A place we're Warrior desperately needs help. 

 

In the current scenario there are 2 ways it can go. 

A) Bladesworn is better Power Dps the berserker on Golem. Making power Berzerker obsolete. 

B) Bladesworn isn't a better power Dps and completely worthless in all aspects of the game except Openworld. 

[Raizel.1839]

23 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

What exactly are you gonna use Bladesworn for? 

I don't know, everything I can? I just like the "big damage number charged attack" and the "samurai stance/moves" concepts, that's all, I'm quite simple after all xD

But as long as you don't want to change these two, I'm fine with whatever other changes you want to do.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Raizel.1839

[Jzaku.9765]

On 10/11/2021 at 7:58 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Lord Hizen's video showed use of flickerstep and the aegis to block or avoid enough of the attacks that Immortal Dragon can cover the rest, and part of my point was that adrenaline in general isn't great against trash mobs (there are skills that can get you the adrenaline faster, but if it's going to die in under 5s anyway, why bother?).

 

A lot of bosses are fairly stationary (and you obviously wouldn't use it against, say, largos twins that are both highly mobile and throw around a lot of stuff you need to dodge), and I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to pull it off. But it does seem to be workable... in PvE. In part because of how inflated the damage is.

 

Competitive modes are an entirely different ball game, though. Only way I can see it working at all is by not playing it the way it's designed to be played, and even then I have my doubts.

Hizen's build video relies entirely on the bugged interaction of Dragon Slash triggering weapon swap triggering his sigil of intelligence for a build with high survivability that always crits with Dragon Slash. It will be forced to play full zerker to achieve anything remotely close the next time around.

[Katary.7096]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

What exactly are you gonna use Bladesworn for? 

Everything works in Openworld/Story, so that doesn't matter. 

Is it good power dps? If yes. Better then Berserker? 2 Power Dps options are not needed. One will always be better than the other. 

It's useless in PvP and Wvw. A place we're Warrior desperately needs help. 

 

In the current scenario there are 2 ways it can go. 

A) Bladesworn is better Power Dps the berserker on Golem. Making power Berzerker obsolete. 

B) Bladesworn isn't a better power Dps and completely worthless in all aspects of the game except Openworld. 

What if power Bladesworn and power Berserker had close to identical levels of damage output? You think that that might lead to a situation where a player can choose to play the build which they prefer? Seems like a pretty good reason to make an elite spec. Although that would require the balance team to actually improve the balance of the game, so I'm not blaming anyone who thinks that this is an unrealistic scenario.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

What if power Bladesworn and power Berserker had close to identical levels of damage output? You think that that might lead to a situation where a player can choose to play the build which they prefer? Seems like a pretty good reason to make an elite spec. Although that would require the balance team to actually improve the balance of the game, so I'm not blaming anyone who thinks that this is an unrealistic scenario.

There is about PvE 22k difference in the benchmarks at the moment in BdS's favor while BdS tickles in Competitive, so for this to happen either Berserker needs big buffs in all game modes, or BdS needs nerfing in PvE and buffing in Competitive.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

6 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

What exactly are you gonna use Bladesworn for? 

Everything works in Openworld/Story, so that doesn't matter. 

Is it good power dps? If yes. Better then Berserker? 2 Power Dps options are not needed. One will always be better than the other. 

It's useless in PvP and Wvw. A place we're Warrior desperately needs help. 

 

In the current scenario there are 2 ways it can go. 

A) Bladesworn is better Power Dps the berserker on Golem. Making power Berzerker obsolete. 

B) Bladesworn isn't a better power Dps and completely worthless in all aspects of the game except Openworld. 

I see B being the more likely option as with the Bladesworn you're rooted while you do your DPS  meanwhile Berserker isn't rooted while it does it's DPS.  Which in high end content like raids if you're rooted for 5-8 seconds you're probably going to end up eating mechanics which will get you killed. There's a reason you don't see too many eles doing raids as a DPS even though they pull big numbers on the golem. If you're going to end up dying because of your class's mechanic raid groups will end up taking a safer class/build.

 

TLDR: big numbers mean nothing if you're dead.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

25 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

I see B being the more likely option as with the Bladesworn you're rooted while you do your DPS  meanwhile Berserker isn't rooted while it does it's DPS.  Which in high end content like raids if you're rooted for 5-8 seconds you're probably going to end up eating mechanics which will get you killed. There's a reason you don't see too many eles doing raids as a DPS even though they pull big numbers on the golem. If you're going to end up dying because of your class's mechanic raid groups will end up taking a safer class/build.

 

TLDR: big numbers mean nothing if you're dead.

Dead DPS is 0 DPS according to ArcDPS.

[anbujackson.9564]

Personally I think that bladesworn doesnt belong in GW2. Its design is not fast paced at all. I play this game because I can do so much while moving my character, unlike other MMO's which are more restricted. I dont want to waste at least 10min out of 30 by just standing around waiting for my gimmick attack which holds 95% of the specs power.

 

The traits are awful. The grandmaster traits are useless in high end PvE (if not everywhere besides some soloing of champs which isnt the norm), master traits are fillers besides lush forest which sadly carries the spec with its spam playstyle to reset your skills, especially f2. Adept traits arent that good either. Gunsaber has no real cc. Wasting your big hit to cc (if traited) is kind of stupid.

 

The hope for a 1h ranged weapon is gone and the offhand has the same range as melee weapons.  No support either. Meanwhile harbringer can pulse quickness for free while being in shroud and catalyst just needs to drop its lightning field.

 

Make warrior the commander like how its supposed to be. They should lead zergs, not guardians.

[oscuro.9720]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:51 AM, Jzaku.9765 said:

Hizen's build video relies entirely on the bugged interaction of Dragon Slash triggering weapon swap triggering his sigil of intelligence for a build with high survivability that always crits with Dragon Slash. It will be forced to play full zerker to achieve anything remotely close the next time around.

Dragon slash is supposed to trigger sigils based on what I’ve read. The only bug was that it proc’d cool down on weapon swap as well, which was not intentional. But the intelligence sigil procing on DT is most likely still going to be a thing. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

DT is supposed to be a kit, and those proc sigils. Actual swap going on CD is the bug.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

DT is supposed to be a kit, and those proc sigils. Actual swap going on CD is the bug.

DT is a burst not a kit, our "kit" is the gunblade regular skills.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:04 PM, Katary.7096 said:

What if power Bladesworn and power Berserker had close to identical levels of damage output? You think that that might lead to a situation where a player can choose to play the build which they prefer? Seems like a pretty good reason to make an elite spec. Although that would require the balance team to actually improve the balance of the game, so I'm not blaming anyone who thinks that this is an unrealistic scenario.

Even if both would do exactly the same dps, there would still be a reason to use one over the other. 

And why 2 dps options when we don't even have a good Wvw option and our PvP option is nerfed so much it basically doesn't exist. 

 

[Jzaku.9765]

15 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Dragon slash is supposed to trigger sigils based on what I’ve read. The only bug was that it proc’d cool down on weapon swap as well, which was not intentional. But the intelligence sigil procing on DT is most likely still going to be a thing. 

You can't put 2 and 2 together and deduce that the fact that it triggers weapon swap CD (in effect, triggering weapon swap) is what is proccing the sigil? One effect is directly causing the other. Gunsaber is supposed to trigger weapon swap cd (and this swap sigils) on swapping to Gunsaber, nothing to do with Dragon Slash. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

DT is a burst not a kit, our "kit" is the gunblade regular skills.

DS is the burst. DT function like any other kit or mode like shroud.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

DS is the burst. DT function like any other kit or mode like shroud.

Yeah that's true I guess the slashes are the burst, but I'm guessing that DT acting like a swap is unintended and will be patched out. Unfortunately we won't know until the next beta event.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Yeah that's true I guess the slashes are the burst, but I'm guessing that DT acting like a swap is unintended and will be patched out. Unfortunately we won't know until the next beta event.

No, it is functioning like how any other kit, bundle, or mode functions, which is to trigger weapon swap traits and sigils.

The bug is that kits, bundles, and modes are not supposed to also trigger your weapon swap CD while DT is triggering the weapon swap CD. Unless of course we got a preview of a massive nerf that is planned for kits, bundles, and modes.

[oscuro.9720]

8 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

You can't put 2 and 2 together and deduce that the fact that it triggers weapon swap CD (in effect, triggering weapon swap) is what is proccing the sigil? One effect is directly causing the other. Gunsaber is supposed to trigger weapon swap cd (and this swap sigils) on swapping to Gunsaber, nothing to do with Dragon Slash. 

I would agree with you if it had been putting it on a 10 or 5 second CD (depending on if discipline was being run), but it was utilizing the 8 second cooldown of dragon trigger, which, to me, suggests the bug was putting weapon swap on cool down, not an accidental trigger of the weapon swap, resulting in Sobil activation.

[Katary.7096]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:11 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There is about PvE 22k difference in the benchmarks at the moment in BdS's favor while BdS tickles in Competitive, so for this to happen either Berserker needs big buffs in all game modes, or BdS needs nerfing in PvE and buffing in Competitive.

Nerfing Bladesworn PvE damage down to roughly the level of Berserker would technically also achieve that, I didn't even mention Competitive. And balance for Bladesworn was already split between game modes during the beta anyway, so changes in one mode don't necessarily affect other modes. Of course any of these scenarios require the balance team to balance Warrior, which is probably the biggest obstacle.

20 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Even if both would do exactly the same dps, there would still be a reason to use one over the other. 

And why 2 dps options when we don't even have a good Wvw option and our PvP option is nerfed so much it basically doesn't exist. 

 

By your logic there is no point in giving Warrior good DPS/Support/WvW/sPvP builds because there are always going to be reasons to use other Professions builds instead. As for your second point: You acknowledge that the "PvP option" has been nerfed so much that it might as well be nonexistent but you still believe that an elite spec giving Warrior a "WvW option" wouldn't be nerfed to that degree?

And why 2 DPS options? Because they might play differently and offer a larger number of players a fun experience on Warrior.

[Jzaku.9765]

8 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I would agree with you if it had been putting it on a 10 or 5 second CD (depending on if discipline was being run), but it was utilizing the 8 second cooldown of dragon trigger, which, to me, suggests the bug was putting weapon swap on cool down, not an accidental trigger of the weapon swap, resulting in Sobil activation.

It triggers the normal weaponswap cooldown ie 5s when traited with Disc. Also, its been mentioned a few times on this forum as if it were true, but the tooltip of 8.something traited CD of Gunsaber is just a visual bug. It was actually 5s as you'd expect if you actually played it. 

 

15 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, it is functioning like how any other kit, bundle, or mode functions, which is to trigger weapon swap traits and sigils.

The bug is that kits, bundles, and modes are not supposed to also trigger your weapon swap CD while DT is triggering the weapon swap CD. Unless of course we got a preview of a massive nerf that is planned for kits, bundles, and modes.

This is the same kind of nonsense you were spouting when Rifle's new explosive shot was double hitting. Even if you completely disregard the fact that Warrior Streamer Ajaxx confirmed it was a bug with a dev, simply apply a lick of common sense that it's clearly obviously not intended to permanently lock you into Gunsaber if you use Dragon Trigger regularly. If somehow this logic escapes you, please refer to my previous post about putting 2 and 2 together regarding weapon swap CD and weapon swap sigils activating. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jzaku.9765

[oscuro.9720]

2 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

It triggers the normal weaponswap cooldown ie 5s when traited with Disc. Also, its been mentioned a few times on this forum as if it were true, but the tooptip of 8.something traited CD of Gunsaber is just a visual bug. It was actually 5s as you'd expect if you actually played it. 

 

This is the same kind of nonsense you were spouting when Rifle's new explosive shot was double hitting. Even if you completely disregard the fact that Warrior Streamer Ajaxx confirmed it was a bug with a dev, simply apply a lick of common sense that it's clearly obviously not intended to permanently lock you into Gunsaber if you use Dragon Trigger regularly. If somehow this logic escapes you, please refer to my previous post about putting 2 and 2 together regarding weapon swap CD and weapon swap sigils activating. 

Interesting, I was playing mostly without discipline and it was procing 9 seconds (in line with DT’s 8 3/4 cd) without discipline. I stand corrected on the traited version. 
honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed it, but I don’t think having it proc so good was a mistake and/or should be removed. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

 

This is the same kind of nonsense you were spouting when Rifle's new explosive shot was double hitting. Even if you completely disregard the fact that Warrior Streamer Ajaxx confirmed it was a bug with a dev, simply apply a lick of common sense that it's clearly obviously not intended to permanently lock you into Gunsaber if you use Dragon Trigger regularly. If somehow this logic escapes you, please refer to my previous post about putting 2 and 2 together regarding weapon swap CD and weapon swap sigils activating. 

First of all, go read what Ajaxx said, in fact go reread what I have been saying because you are clearly not comprehending it. Ajaxx said the exact same thing I am. Weapon swap going on CD is the bug.
 

On 9/22/2021 at 1:02 PM, Ajaxx.3157 said:

Dragon Trigger making weapon swap go on CD is a bug, its fixed but not coming to this beta apparently.

Sad but hey its a start.

Second of all, you apparently do not understand the mechanics of weapon swap traits and sigils and how they interact with things not actually weapon swap:
Weapon swap - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W):
 

• During combat, swapping has a cooldown of 10 seconds, but you can swap repeatedly out of combat.
• Engineers and elementalists cannot swap weapons during combat.
• There are several traits and sigils effects that trigger on swapping.
• If you choose to leave either the main hand or offhand weapon slot empty in one of the sets, the game will not swap the empty slot, and instead automatically use the weapon in that slot from the first set when you switch to the second.
• Engineers can trigger on-swap effects by changing kits; elementalists do so by switching between attunements; revenants can trigger it by switching out legends. Necromancers and Druids can also trigger on-swap effects by entering and exiting Death Shroud and Celestial Avatar respectively.
• Firebrands also trigger on-swap effects by swapping in and out of tomes.
• Switching to a bundle will also trigger on-swap effects.
• Successfully attacking while mounted--which will then dismount you, put you into combat, and swap into your normal weapons--will trigger weapon swapping.

Bundle - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
 

Bundles are available to some professions as part of their regular skills or profession mechanic:

• Elementalists can conjure elemental weapons having their own sets of skills.
• Engineers' engineering kits are bundles that they can take out and stow at any time. These kits act as a replacement to weapon swapping for them since they only have access to one weapon set instead of two. For an engineer, dropping a bundle has the same effect as stowing the kit.
• Rangers can have their porcine pets use their forage skill to obtain a bundle.
• Thieves have the steal attack, which provides them with a skill to use depending on the target.

Photon Forge is a kit/not a kit that triggers weapon swap, sorry too lazy to throw a third link at you.

Dragon Trigger itself is not a burst. Flicker step is not a burst. Triggerguard is not a burst. It would be great if all of them counted as bursts, but they are not the burst. Dragon Slash is the burst.

What Dragon Trigger is, is a mode, not unlike Shroud, that expends a resource, grants a new set of skills, and has its own CD. Whether this mode is formally a kit, a bundle, or a mode like CA or Shroud is a moot point because all of these function to trigger on swap traits and sigils without triggering the actual weapon swap CD.

So, for the last time. Triggering the sigils and traits on entering Dragon Trigger is not a bug, that is intended gameplay based on how every other similar ability works. What is a bug is that DT puts weapon swap on CD which none of these other mechanics do, which is what Ajaxx confirmed with a dev.
 

[Jzaku.9765]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So, for the last time. Triggering the sigils and traits on entering Dragon Trigger is not a bug, that is intended gameplay based on how every other similar ability works. What is a bug is that DT puts weapon swap on CD which none of these other mechanics do, which is what Ajaxx confirmed with a dev.
 

I find it really funny that you can make a giant snarky post when fundamentally you obviously didn't even touch bladesworn for the entire duration of the beta, because the bug is exiting DT via using Dragon Slash that triggers weapon swap and associated Sigils and Traits. 

 

Gunsaber is the shroud/Holo form change equivalent. Going from "weapons > Gunsaber" and "Gunsaber > weapons" both trigger on swap effects as you'd expect. Dragon Trigger, a subform of Gunsaber, should not interact with the weapon swap mechanic at all. Kneeling on Rifle Deadeye does not, which is the same mechanic. Entering Dragon Trigger does not, so the bug is that Leaving it does. Is that clear enough for you? 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jzaku.9765

[draxynnic.3719]

9 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I find it really funny that you can make a giant snarky post when fundamentally you obviously didn't even touch bladesworn for the entire duration of the beta, because the bug is exiting DT via using Dragon Slash that triggers weapon swap and associated Sigils and Traits. 

 

Gunsaber is the shroud/Holo form change equivalent. Going from "weapons > Gunsaber" and "Gunsaber > weapons" both trigger on swap effects as you'd expect. Dragon Trigger, a subform of Gunsaber, should not interact with the weapon swap mechanic at all. Kneeling on Rifle Deadeye does not, which is the same mechanic. Entering Dragon Trigger does not, so the bug is that Leaving it does. Is that clear enough for you? 

You're missing the point.

 

Gunsaber and Dragon Trigger both act as mode switches. Apart from flipover skills, pretty much EVERYTHING that allows you to change your skills in combat triggers on-weaponswap sigils. Activating Dragon Trigger does this. Bladesworn essentially has two such modes - gunsaber out has a set of skills, and gunsaber in sheathe has a set of skills. Dragon Trigger is linked to gunsaber, but is still a separate mode with its own set of skills.

 

Coming out of Dragon Trigger putting weaponswap on cooldown has been acknowledged as a bug, but nothing has been said regarding its behaviour with on-swap sigils, traits, and so on.

 

Sure, it's possible that Arenanet will decide that Dragon Trigger is a subset of gunsaber, and therefore that it shouldn't trigger these effects. There's precedent in deadeye rifle kneeling, for instance. But it's also possible that this particular interaction is intended.