Question regarding shadow arts.

[Axl.8924]

So just earlier i was watching vallun play thief in WVW he was playing various and talking about all sorta things and a topic happened where he discussed shadow arts saying it needed to be nerfed.

Do you guys think that its being used as a crutch and should be nerfed?

 

Do you think its a crutch that could take small nerfs and be ok? would it be a good idea? he said its unlikely to happen due to anet unlikely to hit.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Infusion.7149]

People were saying the same about acro before it was given 300s cooldowns.

Was it mentioned what exactly they wanted nerfed?

The only thing out of the ordinary on shadow arts is 50% movement speed in stealth : I don't think 3s of spider venom is gamebreaking. Being able to boon rip with stealth attacks requires hitting with stealth attacks, unlike older sword+dagger builds for example. You could achieve a similar outcome with a sigil of nullification , sigil of absorption, or sigil of revocation (PVP).

[Axl.8924]

36 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

People were saying the same about acro before it was given 300s cooldowns.

Was it mentioned what exactly they wanted nerfed?

The only thing out of the ordinary on shadow arts is 50% movement speed in stealth : I don't think 3s of spider venom is gamebreaking. Being able to boon rip with stealth attacks requires hitting with stealth attacks, unlike older sword+dagger builds for example. You could achieve a similar outcome with a sigil of nullification , sigil of absorption, or sigil of revocation (PVP).

One of the things he mentioned was the ability to heal often with stealth saying it was overpowered.
He said syphon life was fine because it was an active move.

[kash.9213]

SA can get wild with some kits but I wouldn't call for any nerfs to SA. Shadows Rejuv healing is on an interval and you're taking that over two other really good options. I think it should be changed to something better though, I just don't know what that might be, but I'd rather have more siphon and leech to manage their health along with mine, or I'll start to gas out while they can recover during my heal also. 

I don't know what kind of WvW he plays, but if you get focused and lit up a lot then you see what everyone else is packing and how they're not about holding any of that back on you. 

[Axl.8924]

8 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

SA can get wild with some kits but I wouldn't call for any nerfs to SA. Shadows Rejuv healing is on an interval and you're taking that over two other really good options. I think it should be changed to something better though, I just don't know what that might be, but I'd rather have more siphon and leech to manage their health along with mine, or I'll start to gas out while they can recover during my heal also. 

I don't know what kind of WvW he plays, but if you get focused and lit up a lot then you see what everyone else is packing and how they're not about holding any of that back on you. 

 

He-s playing cele condi daredevil Pistol pistol bow thief.

The other clips: He has a power staff daredevil and last one is D/P core power.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Chips.7968]

18 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

So just earlier i was watching vallun play thief in WVW he was playing various and talking about all sorta things and a topic happened where he discussed shadow arts saying it needed to be nerfed.

Do you guys think that its being used as a crutch and should be nerfed?

 

Do you think its a crutch that could take small nerfs and be ok? would it be a good idea? he said its unlikely to happen due to anet unlikely to hit.

Did he not say how/why various points of it were over performing and needing nerfs, or just how big the nerf bat should be and why (does it over synergise - if that's even a saying - with a specific build, or weapon/stats, or for every spec it's too much?). 

[Axl.8924]

17 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

Did he not say how/why various points of it were over performing and needing nerfs, or just how big the nerf bat should be and why (does it over synergise - if that's even a saying - with a specific build, or weapon/stats, or for every spec it's too much?). 

He mentioned that a thief with the heal from stealth could in theory heal infinitely and outlive opponents and complained about non active abilities.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Axl.8924

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

If SA gets nerfed, other trait lines need compensation. We cannot have 2 completely gutted trait lines in Acrobatics AND Shadow Arts. And before you say Acrobatics is fine - no, this isn't early level PvE. It's not fine by any measure, especially in competitive.

Revamp Acrobatics, adjust Shadow Arts and compensate others.

Edited October 14, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[MrForz.1953]

Well, to the original question: Absolutely. Shadow Arts carries, and passively, even more so with D/P and DE Rifle to some extent. The synergy's the reason the class is potentially obnoxious to fight against and also one of the reasons Thief can't have nice things, like at all.

I'd certainly not mind seeing some of the trait line passive power shaved or replaced with something more active, then beef up Acrobatics and perhaps Critical Strikes to have them compete with the likes of Trickery.

Edited October 14, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[Axl.8924]

Because i'm no expert i can't remember but i coulda sworn that acro is still taken in some stuff for SPVP, unless acro staff daredevil is no longer a thing.

[Zacchary.6183]

3 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

He mentioned that a thief with the heal from stealth could in theory heal infinitely and outlive opponents and complained about non active abilities.

Sounds like he hasn't mained it for more than two weeks.

[Axl.8924]

3 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Sounds like he hasn't mained it for more than two weeks.

 

I dunno he seemed pretty good as a thief player he showed a site with builds of his he tested of all sorts of classes.

 

https://guildjen.com/pvp-builds/

 

I don't know how accurate of course there is all sorts of builds there a variety of builds for SPVP and WVW such as DP roamer 

Roamer SD build  etc.

 

The section i'm looking at is specifically SPVP.

[Infusion.7149]

11 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

He-s playing cele condi daredevil Pistol pistol bow thief.

The other clips: He has a power staff daredevil and last one is D/P core power.

If it's cele then it's WVW I guess. If you're playing cele thief in WVW it means you are useless for the matchup so asking for it to be nerfed is rather pointless.

You can't contest a ring in WVW while stealthed so all you can do is gank people that are full glass or clueless. Keep in mind Vallun is more experienced in PVP than WVW other than roaming: WVW isn't balanced around plat PVP players on troll builds ganking people trying to get daily yak slapper or veteran creature. If that were the case they'd probably nerf condi druids as well when no serious WVW player plays condi druid or any projectile-based build such as shortbow renegade.

It's been that way since 2012. Thieves have been ganking eles , mesmers (especially) and necros since WVW's inception while doing literally nothing else for the matchup even when there is no PPK.

The rationale for it to be nerfed isn't as strong as he would lead you to believe. In largescale you're better off running staff daredevil with critical strikes.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If it's cele then it's WVW I guess. If you're playing cele thief in WVW it means you are useless for the matchup so asking for it to be nerfed is rather pointless.

You can't contest a ring in WVW while stealthed so all you can do is gank people that are full glass or clueless. Keep in mind Vallun is more experienced in PVP than WVW other than roaming: WVW isn't balanced around plat PVP players on troll builds ganking people trying to get daily yak slapper or veteran creature. If that were the case they'd probably nerf condi druids as well when no serious WVW player plays condi druid or any projectile-based build such as shortbow renegade.

The way i heard it he was complaining about how some pieces of gear giive too much of every stat such as condi dmg sustain etc for wvw and said other pieces type were removed for WVW due to how tanky some builds were and complained about how it dumbed down builds because if celestial is good everyone goes celestial.

[ASP.8093]

On 10/13/2021 at 4:35 PM, Axl.8924 said:

Do you guys think that its being used as a crutch and should be nerfed?

I think GW2 players really over-focus on "lots of builds of my class take this one particular trait line" even though, like, the traits are a huge part of the class' foundational identity in the first place.

I've stopped using Shadow Arts in SPvP because (at least at my level of play) I get way more out of using Deadly Arts to augment my damage a bit, apply Poison/Weakness, and reset my utility cooldowns. Deadly Arts just gives me way more team fight presence and more ability to pressure targets one-on-one.

I still use Shadow Arts in WvW because it's good for fighting outnumbered or picking apart tanky condi builds. You don't feel the DPS loss as much because there are other ways to get your damage up that aren't available to you in SPvP. Shadow Arts is the most sustain-/defense-oriented of all the thief trait lines (though you're better off just taking Invigorating Precision for sustain in PvE), so it's really not surprising that it's a popular choice for roamers who are looking for a balance of offense and survival in their builds. Especially since Acrobatics, the only other defense-oriented core trait line, got Smiters'-Booned super hard, and everything that's left is heavily oriented towards Sword/Dagger play.

 

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

no serious WVW player plays condi druid or any projectile-based build such as shortbow renegade.

Projectile-based builds are fine one-on-one or in small-scale group combat. If you run into an engineer or whatever you've still got weapon swap.

Edited October 14, 2021 by ASP.8093
typos

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

If SA gets nerfed, other trait lines need compensation. We cannot have 2 completely gutted trait lines in Acrobatics AND Shadow Arts. And before you say Acrobatics is fine - no, this isn't early level PvE. It's not fine by any measure, especially in competitive.

Revamp Acrobatics, adjust Shadow Arts and compensate others.

What about the always forgotten CS ? Lol most dont take it cuz it offers 0 utility while only providing slightly higher DPS gains over kitten.

[Axl.8924]

23 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

I think GW2 players really over-focus on "lots of builds of my class take this one particular trait line" even though, like, the traits are a huge part of the class' foundational identity in the first place.

I've stopped using Shadow Arts in SPvP because (at least at my level of play) I get way more out of using Deadly Arts to augment my damage a bit, apply Poison/Weakness, and reset my utility cooldowns. Deadly Arts just gives me way more team fight presence and more ability to pressure targets one-on-one.

I still use Shadow Arts in WvW because it's good for fighting outnumbered or picking apart tanky condi builds. You don't feel the DPS loss as much because there are other ways to get your damage up that aren't available to you in SPvP. Shadow Arts is the most sustain-/defense-oriented of all the thief trait lines (though you're better off just taking Invigorating Precision for sustain in PvE), so it's really not surprising that it's a popular choice for roamers who are looking for a balance of offense and survival in their builds. Especially since Acrobatics, the only other defense-oriented core trait line, got Smiters'-Booned super hard, and everything that's left is it heavily oriented towards Sword/Dagger play.

 

Projectile-based builds are fine one-on-one or in small-scale group combat. If you run into an engineer or whatever you've still got weapon swap.

 

I think i've done deadly arts in spvp at times i'm not good though as a player and i know this cause poison build with lotus training of course and other stuff on condi dagger kinda makes sense.

Also what about swindlers equilibrium? would you call it bad? I like the idea of having steal ability gain recharge

Edited October 14, 2021 by Axl.8924

[ASP.8093]

20 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Also what about swindlers equilibrium? would you call it bad? I like the idea of having steal ability gain recharge

Swindler's Equilibrium falls under "everything that's left [non-nuked in Acrobatics] is heavily oriented towards Sword/Dagger play."

Also, like, pound-for-pound, I do think Improvisation is stronger.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Projectile-based builds are fine one-on-one or in small-scale group combat. If you run into an engineer or whatever you've still got weapon swap.

The post I responded to  read : "He-s playing cele condi daredevil Pistol pistol bow thief. "

[ASP.8093]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

The post I responded to  read : "He-s playing cele condi daredevil Pistol pistol bow thief. "

Ah. I see. What happened here was: that build concept was so awful my brain just kinda blocked it out from the conversation, like forgetting a bad dream.

My apologies.

[Axl.8924]

35 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

Ah. I see. What happened here was: that build concept was so awful my brain just kinda blocked it out from the conversation, like forgetting a bad dream.

My apologies.

It had almost no damage it relied on staying away and being able to condi people hopefully down and or depend on distractions.

I mean he also had sb for teleport arrow of course to get away because its a essencial tool for any good thief to outmaneuver and escape being ambushed.

[saerni.2584]

I've run the numbers recently on celestial thief builds and it suffers a fair bit in the crit department. So unless you run something gimmick to get a spike of critical chance it is mostly a more hybrid version of trailblazer (because you also get expertise but less pure condi stat off a celestial build compared to TB).

 

As for Shadow Arts, the main way people "abuse" it is by using some kind of permanent stealth made possible with the initiative regen uptime from the Grandmaster. But many people who call for nerfs or changes to SA have no idea what they are talking about. In fact, SA was reworked once before and became less about camping Stealth as a result. However, that wasn't a 100% shift and subsequent iterations weren't enough to move it out of "be in stealth longer and benefit." 
 

Basically, a lot of the legitimately reasonable "redo" SA discussion revolves around making it more about active use of Stealth rather than passive camping Stealth by changing the offending Grandmaster. One method for that is to change some/both bonuses into "on entering Stealth." Another method would be to change the bonus to be incidental to Stealth Attacks. You can see some of this already in how some traits are designed, like with having Stealth Attacks siphon health. You can also see this philosophy in how certain traits were nerfed (stacking venoms limited to 2, making camping Stealth almost negligible benefit). But that might be to similar to other traits so that is possibly a no-go.

[BobbyT.7192]

I would like it if thieves played around with reveal alot more than they currently do. They do have a few traits based around reveal, but I think they can do more. Trait like:

Shadow form: Stealth based traits are also active while your revealed. 

Its a simple idea, but it allows the thief to keep its sustain up while being prevented from entering stealth. Especially reveal from outside sources.

Make it a GM minor, or have it combined with the damage reduction while reveal trait.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by BobbyT.7192
grammer

[itspomf.9523]

1 hour ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

I would like it if thieves played around with reveal alot more than they currently do. They do have a few traits based around reveal, but I think they can do more. Trait like:

Shadow form: Stealth based traits are also active while your revealed. 

Its a simple idea, but it allows the thief to keep its sustain up while being prevented from entering stealth. Especially reveal from outside sources.

Make it a GM minor, or have it combined with the damage reduction while reveal traits.

 

 

I have a certain feeling we're going to get something very much like that in the new elite specialization.

[BobbyT.7192]

1 hour ago, fluffdragon.1523 said:

 

I have a certain feeling we're going to get something very much like that in the new elite specialization.

God i hope not, that really should be part of core.