Why no toolbelt on Mechanist?

[Quench.7091]

A mega turret with legs is a new way to play the engineer.  You guys wanted turret buffs, so they gave you a buff turret. You guys couldn't do this before, because it was really awful. Stop speculating about it being awful.

[azarhal.3086]

2 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

It's such a blank statement to tell people not to play the new elite spec if they have issues with it. 

Elite specs is very much about what you lose and what you gain from the spec and as the spec is presented currently we loose far more then we gain. 
They are also expansion sellers and can mean a lot for people.

It's not just a number game, which could be easy solved (Not that Anet's balance track record nor speed is impressive).
But it's a matter about fundamentally mechanist over focus on AI and trades offs not being balanced. It's not about "doom and gloom". 

People post precisely their concerns around what we have already been shown, and yet we have several people like you trying to shut down the conversation with statements like "Just don't play it" "Stop the doom and Gloom" "Just have fun. "

We are gonna play the beta, we are gonna come with feedback, but I don't have to play the beta to see some over the glaring design issues that comes from tool belt being removed as the "trade off"

Looking at the stream, I take that Mech over any toolbelt skills personally. Way better damage than any Ranger's pet or Necro's minions, constant barrier and alacrity pulsing with the right trait, fast attack rate with most hitting 5 targets, crazy health and toughness.  Even the signets and mace look good.  And top of it, way less keyboard piano! 

You want the toolbelt skills on top of that? That means even more keyboard piano than the other Engineers. It also mean a nerfed mech that is crappier than Necro's minions because what you want is Core Engineer+++.  No thanks. I prefer getting the full Mech and paying for it with the fixed Mech Commands replacing the toolbelt skills.

By the way, Mechanist is a pet classes and those are very popular. Minionmancers and Rangers are at the top of the most played builds in the game. Engineer is going to get a lots of new players with EoD/Mechanist really.

Edited October 24, 2021 by azarhal.3086

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:52 AM, Kaizoku.1298 said:

I'll give you all a little tip - Let your mech die all the time, get killed easily when your mech is away and don't deal any damage with the mech. That way after the beta, anet will buff us up real good.

Actually, if you REALLY want Anet to fix it, just don't play it. I guarantee people not playing Mechanist shows up on their radar. I doubt this gets the specific fixes people want but it gets their attention that's for sure.  See it's a catch 22 ... because no one is going to play a spec they don't like and no one avoids playing a spec they do like.

Frankly, I don't know why anyone petitions about this toolbelt change ... like Anet didn't know they were changing it? Pretty sure they did. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

5 minutes ago, azarhal.3086 said:

And top of it, way less keyboard piano!

This is a point that could be stressed more.  Seems to the strongest counter to simply restoring the toolbelt.  However, a lot of the feedback in favor of restoring the toolbelt also includes Core reforms that might also reduce keyboard piano for all Engineers both the Core and elites.  There are also other issues entangled in the feedback that aren't solved by simply accepting no a toolbelt scenario.

I am in favor of reducing keyboard piano, or at least options to do so.  There is already feedback (buried in needless argument) that the toolbelt could be removed completely, and those skills could get absorbed or otherwise become enhancements to kit skills... and the Kits in turn get removed from the utility slots and given their own place where the toolbelt was or something similar.  Gyros and Mech skills could in turn become kits.  Lots to think about and work out in such a scenario... but it could bring Engineer out of the dustbin of class choices.  Engineer would get to actually make utility skill choices too, but they will need to be re-balanced without their toolbelt counterparts.

Anyway, +1 to less mandatory keyboard piano.

[azarhal.3086]

2 minutes ago, Random Wax Orc.7695 said:

This is a point that could be stressed more.  Seems to the strongest counter to simply restoring the toolbelt.  However, a lot of the feedback in favor of restoring the toolbelt also includes Core reforms that might also reduce keyboard piano for all Engineers both the Core and elites.  There are also other issues entangled in the feedback that aren't solved by simply accepting no a toolbelt scenario.

I am in favor of reducing keyboard piano, or at least options to do so.  There is already feedback (buried in needless argument) that the toolbelt could be removed completely, and those skills could get absorbed or otherwise become enhancements to kit skills... and the Kits in turn get removed from the utility slots and given their own place where the toolbelt was or something similar.  Gyros and Mech skills could in turn become kits.  Lots to think about and work out in such a scenario... but it could bring Engineer out of the dustbin of class choices.  Engineer would get to actually make utility skill choices too, but they will need to be re-balanced without their toolbelt counterparts.

Anyway, +1 to less mandatory keyboard piano.

 

Anet love keyboard piano, they think giving players carpal tunnel or wrist tendinitis* shows those players have skills.

 

*I actually developed that playing Engineer mid-way LS2...

[MrForz.1953]

1 hour ago, azarhal.3086 said:

And top of it, way less keyboard piano!

 

The piano comes from the kits, not the toolbelt. You can already choose not to walk the path of the piano with the other two specs, they have access to kitless builds that perform quite well even though not optimal. In terms of optimization on the Mechanist: the signets probably won't be worth choosing over kits once again despite the lack of a toolbelt. It will likely be played just like Core, but with less potency and a pet at your side so that's not exactly a strong argument.

[azarhal.3086]

14 minutes ago, MrForz.1953 said:

 

The piano comes from the kits, not the toolbelt. You can already choose not to walk the path of the piano with the other two specs, they have access to kitless builds that perform quite well even though not optimal. In terms of optimization on the Mechanist: the signets probably won't be worth choosing over kits once again despite the lack of a toolbelt. It will likely be played just like Core, but with less potency and a pet at your side so that's not exactly a strong argument.

Toolbelt skills contribute a lot more to the high APM of Engineer for the average players than kits do, as they do not switch to kits to use a single ability, they camp it for a little while. They do use toolbelt skills off cooldown thought...or not and just suck.

Low Intensity Core Engineer is camping Flamethrower with turrets without using any of the toolbelt skills. Damage isn't that good, but that build will still work with the Mech without losing anything. Big increase in damage output.🤣

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by azarhal.3086

[Amadeus.5687]

58 minutes ago, azarhal.3086 said:

Looking at the stream, I take that Mech over any toolbelt skills personally.

Way better damage than any Ranger's pet or Necro's minions, constant barrier and alacrity pulsing with the right trait, fast attack rate with most hitting 5 targets, crazy health and toughness.  Even the signets and mace look good.  And top of it, way less keyboard piano! 

 

You want the toolbelt skills on top of that? That means even more keyboard piano than the other Engineers. It also mean a nerfed mech that is crappier than Necro's minions because what you want is Core Engineer+++.  No thanks. I prefer getting the full Mech and paying for it with the fixed Mech Commands replacing the toolbelt skills.

 

By the way, Mechanist is a pet classes and those are very popular. Minionmancers and Rangers are at the top of the most played builds in the game. Engineer is going to get a lots of new players with EoD/Mechanist really.

Sure is a lot to unfold here so lets go;

I'm glad you will pick it any day, good for you.

The Mech might end up doing more dmg then any Ranger pet or Necro minions. The thing is both of these profession have acces to weapon swap, heck necromancers even have shroud.
Also none of these two profession rely on their AI for thier top PvE DPS builds, because AI is a big issue in any competitive format. 
We have paid a severe tax for our toolbelt; We have no weapon swap and our weapon options are very limited. 

Sure the Mechanist might be a new alacrity bot, if it could give it to 10 man instead of only 5. And even then it would have to be able to outdps Renegade and the new Scepter, which I highly doubt it will be able to do when you go the support route traitwise with it. In special with how bad mace is designed as a hybrid weapon that deals a bit of condi, a bit of power and a bit of barrier.
You could maybe go full support mechanist, but who would pick that?
If you need the healing, you'd rather have a Scrapper, which can supply perma quickness and superspeed while being a better healer AND can function as the raid tank while doing all that.

I have never said I wanted toolbelt on top of mech commands nor do I wish for a core Engineer+++, we allready have that in Holosmith and it have been a design and balance disaster from day one. But feel free to asume whatever you want.
If we are forced to have an AI, I much rather they simply had given the "toolbelt" to the mech, 4 command skill slots and the skills are directly linked to the utility skills we have equipped.
Would it have been a lot of work to design 27 new cool Mech command skills? Sure thing, but that's what I wanted.
Because now we are left with a bunch of our utility skills being weakend a lot, cause they are balanced and designed around also having the toolbelt skill.
Med kit have literly lost it's healing skill because of this.
Mechanist is in it's current state an inflexible elite spec, with boring build crafting and instead of providing us more options, it's limiting out options. That is bad game design.  

And you claim you won't be playing piano now? Piano where never a must outside endgame PvE  FOTM/Raids and guess what? It will still be top DPS for mechanist to play full kits + mech. if the condition dmg mechanist build can out dps the holosmith condi build, your still gonna roll FT, Grenade, Bomb and Mortar kit.  So you will still play piano...

Also I don't care about how popular Engineer is and that minion/pet specs are popular, doesn't make it more fun or well designed

[MrForz.1953]

16 minutes ago, azarhal.3086 said:

 

Toolbelt skills contribute a lot more to the high APM of Engineer for the average player than kit do, as they do not switch to kit to use a single ability. They do use toolbelt skills off cooldown thought.

 

 

Low Intensity Core Engineer is camping Flamethrower with turrets without using any of the toolbelt skills. Damage isn't that good, but that build will still work with the Mech without losing anything. Big increase in damage output.🤣

 

So... Toolbelt skills contribute more to the APM than using your pistols kills then switching to Grenade Kit for 2 and 5, then Flamethrower for 2 3 and 4 then Bomb kit for 2 and the autoattack in constant rotation? There may be a silver lining for power but not by that much. You will be stuck with that, the mech won't change the piano.

Edited October 24, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[azarhal.3086]

46 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Sure is a lot to unfold here so lets go;

I'm glad you will pick it any day, good for you.

The Mech might end up doing more dmg then any Ranger pet or Necro minions. The thing is both of these profession have acces to weapon swap, heck necromancers even have shroud.
Also none of these two profession rely on their AI for thier top PvE DPS builds, because AI is a big issue in any competitive format. 
We have paid a severe tax for our toolbelt; We have no weapon swap and our weapon options are very limited. 

Sure the Mechanist might be a new alacrity bot, if it could give it to 10 man instead of only 5. And even then it would have to be able to outdps Renegade and the new Scepter, which I highly doubt it will be able to do when you go the support route traitwise with it. In special with how bad mace is designed as a hybrid weapon that deals a bit of condi, a bit of power and a bit of barrier.
You could maybe go full support mechanist, but who would pick that?
If you need the healing, you'd rather have a Scrapper, which can supply perma quickness and superspeed while being a better healer AND can function as the raid tank while doing all that.

I have never said I wanted toolbelt on top of mech commands nor do I wish for a core Engineer+++, we allready have that in Holosmith and it have been a design and balance disaster from day one. But feel free to asume whatever you want.
If we are forced to have an AI, I much rather they simply had given the "toolbelt" to the mech, 4 command skill slots and the skills are directly linked to the utility skills we have equipped.
Would it have been a lot of work to design 27 new cool Mech command skills? Sure thing, but that's what I wanted.
Because now we are left with a bunch of our utility skills being weakend a lot, cause they are balanced and designed around also having the toolbelt skill.
Med kit have literly lost it's healing skill because of this.
Mechanist is in it's current state an inflexible elite spec, with boring build crafting and instead of providing us more options, it's limiting out options. That is bad game design.  

And you claim you won't be playing piano now? Piano where never a must outside endgame PvE  FOTM/Raids and guess what? It will still be top DPS for mechanist to play full kits + mech. if the condition dmg mechanist build can out dps the holosmith condi build, your still gonna roll FT, Grenade, Bomb and Mortar kit.  So you will still play piano...

Also I don't care about how popular Engineer is and that minion/pet specs are popular, doesn't make it more fun or well designed

Necro and Ranger don't rely on pets/minions for their DPS build because the minion/pet damage output is pathetic. I main Necro since I was forced to drop Engineer. I have 4 of them. I played minion master all over the Summer because I was getting bored. Minions damage scale very poorly and they only attack every 2 seconds. You will never see a minion hit for over 2000 like the Mech in the stream did, if they go over 200 it's actually a good hit. Ranger's pet deal  more damage than minions and some are more DPS oriented with higher crit chance. But just check the Untamed presentation and compare the pet damage to what the Mech does a few minutes later in the same stream. It's not the same thing at all.

Both Necro and Ranger are designed with the player dealing most of the damage, the pets/minions are accessories. Mechanist is clearly different, otherwise that Mech is getting nerfed by over 75% before EoD release.

And Mechanist can give Alacrity to 10 people. The Mech can give it to 5 people (Mech excluded it's mentioned on the description) while still attacking (because it's a passive) and the Engineer can do the same with the mace. Probably more work than what people want thought, because it will require two stacks and not one.

You don't care about making the Engineer more popular but then bring up "they have an expansion to sell". Right...

Edited October 24, 2021 by azarhal.3086

[Amadeus.5687]

3 minutes ago, azarhal.3086 said:

Necro and Ranger don't rely on pets/minions for their DPS build because the minion/pet damage output is pathetic. I main Necro since I was forced to drop Engineer. I have 4 of them. I played minion master all over the Summer because I was getting bored. Minions damage scale very poorly and they only attack every 2 seconds. You will never see a minion hit for over 2000 like the Mech in the stream did, if they go over 200 it's actually a good hit. Ranger's pet deal  more damage than minions and some are more DPS oriented with higher crit chance.

But just check the Untamed presentation and compare the pet damage to what the Mech does a few minutes later in the same stream. It's not the same thing at all.

 

Both Necro and Ranger are designed with the player dealing most of the damage, the pets/minions are accessories. Mechanist is clearly different, otherwise that Mech is getting nerfed by over 75% before EoD release.

 

And Mechanist can give Alacrity to 10 people. The Mech can give it to 5 people (Mech excluded it's mentioned on the description) while still attacking (because it's a passive) and the Engineer can do the same with the mace.

Probably more work than what people want thought, because it will require two stacks and not one.

 

You don't care about making the Engineer more popular but then bring up "they have an expansion to sell". Right...

 

Nope and Necromancer and Ranger are far better off for doing having to do that; It's one of the major complaints many of us have with the éntire mechanist design; To much forcus on the AI.
My point where also that minions ain't the Necromancer profession mechanic, it's just an utility type. 
For rangers it is, one they very often complain about loudly on their forums, rightfully. I have over 1000 PvP matches on Ranger and know the issues that the AI bring

We really don't know if the Engineer can target 5 different people while the pet target 5 different, time will tell. I do allready know that Engineer would have to auto attack with the weak mace and would get outdpsed by Renegade and hence not picked.

Yeah I don't care about whatever or not more people play Engineer in EoD.
But Anet still have an expansion to sell and they want a happy customer base; I get it, Mechanist is a cool class fantasy, but I also want it to be a balanced elite spec that work in all gamemode, which it won't

 

[Zzik.5873]

21 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I'm not sure wether you thought this through... 😶

You dont know, med kit is our only healing skill in the game. If only engineer got like a totem or some kind of... dunno... turret that could splash water around it... Sadly I dont think we have anything like this.

[Amadeus.5687]

1 minute ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

You dont know, med kit is our only healing skill in the game. If only engineer got like a totem or some kind of... dunno... turret that could splash water around it... Sadly I dont think we have anything like this.

This is such a bad argument; People are annoyed that for the first time in GW2 an elite spec have literally removed the core healing mechanic of a healing skill from the game. There is no other example of an elite spec limiting the players choices in such a degree as the Mechanist.

[Lynx.9058]

Not only do we not get toolbelt, but this spec also might as well delete the Tools trait line as well, since nearly all traits in that line focus on improving the toolbelt and toolbelt skills.

 

[azarhal.3086]

42 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Not only do we not get toolbelt, but this spec also might as well delete the Tools trait line as well, since nearly all traits in that line focus on improving the toolbelt and toolbelt skills.

 

Tools work with the Mech Commands  F skills as if they were toolbelt skills, it was mentioned and shown in the stream start at 1:47:40.

 

[gitssac.7302]

> Buys EoD and plays WvW
> "I'm going to use my brand new Mechanist elite spec. I bet it'll be OP. I mean have you seen all that damage on the twitch stream preview?"
> Calls down Mech into enemy zerg
> Mech instantly dies
> 100 second cool down timer
> No tool belt skills and no Mech
> More useless than a core engi in WvW fights

> Feelsbadman

[anduriell.6280]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, if you REALLY want Anet to fix it, just don't play it. I guarantee people not playing Mechanist shows up on their radar. I doubt this gets the specific fixes people want but it gets their attention that's for sure.  See it's a catch 22 ... because no one is going to play a spec they don't like and no one avoids playing a spec they do like.

Frankly, I don't know why anyone petitions about this toolbelt change ... like Anet didn't know they were changing it? Pretty sure they did. 

In my experience they may see it and do nothing. There are no Druids outside from raids still Anet has neglected that elite for years. 

 

I would not expect miracles about mechanics reworks although it would be something nice . 

[The Fear.3865]

The piano argument... Mechanist is definitely made for open world ranger bois...

I don't care of it's gonna be good or bad, but at this point, it's pretty obvious to me that it's going to be the most boring gameplay of every spec. Sitting afk with 3 mechas skills and signets, feelsbadman. 

RIP engi complexity. 

[SeTect.5918]

20 minutes ago, The Fear.3865 said:

The piano argument... Mechanist is definitely made for open world ranger bois...

I don't care of it's gonna be good or bad, but at this point, it's pretty obvious to me that it's going to be the most boring gameplay of every spec. Sitting afk with 3 mechas skills and signets, feelsbadman. 

RIP engi complexity. 

U still going to use 2 kits with condi. Basically only photon forge and 1 kit is gone. U cant afk with it.

[Obtena.7952]

14 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

In my experience they may see it and do nothing. There are no Druids outside from raids still Anet has neglected that elite for years. 

 

I would not expect miracles about mechanics reworks although it would be something nice . 

True ... because that's not actually a problem. We know if a spec isn't played at the level they want it, they change it. If there aren't Druids outside from raids, and they don't have a problem with that, why would they change it?

I mean, we can complain about it all we like but there isn't a point ignoring how Anet wants the game to work. Sort of like there isn't much point to complain they replaced toolbelt with Jade Golem Commands. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ledernierrempart.6871]

what i mean by that is to give the mechanist his toolbelt skill back but only in the form of golem spells. like, when the golem is not on the field you can use special skills similar to what the golem can use as toolbelt skill instead of the random laser strike that will cause unwanted aggro in PvE.

kitten i will never play this spec in PvE it it will randomly strike foes around me and make me enter combat every time!!!!!

[Orack.9756]

Laser strike is from the Signet ultimate, not random at all.
But yeah, could be nice to get back toolbet for signet and other skill when golem is not up, especially with is very long CD.

[azarhal.3086]

7 minutes ago, Orack.9756 said:

Laser strike is from the Signet ultimate, not random at all.

He's talking about the passive from the grandmaster J-Drive that cause the  Mech that is away (in cooldown for repairs or dismissed) to randomly strike enemies around you. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by azarhal.3086

[Orack.9756]

Just now, azarhal.3086 said:

He's talking about the passive from the grandmaster J-Drive that cause the  Mech that is away (in cooldown for repairs or dismissed) to randomly strike enemies around you. 

Oh forget this one, thx you !

[Mesket.5728]

And Berserker should have its F1 back when not in mode. And Bladeswan should have its weapon swap and burst skill back also.