Specter not viable in Raids and Fractals?

[Lurana.7506]

As I understand it, we only get single target support, except a little bit aoe healing. So where to use this?

In Raids and Fractals people will stick with support classes that benefit the whole subgroup.

In PvP and WvW it could be viable but in open world PvE it's again not viable, maybe with a few specific exceptions.

So as I see it we have a spec which is only viable or usable in a few specific contexts.

Just to be clear: I'm only talking about the support side of this spec.

Am I missing something here? I'd love playing the Specter as support in Raids...

Edited October 23, 2021 by Lurana.7506

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

36 minutes ago, Lurana.7506 said:

As I understand it, we only get single target support, except a little bit aoe healing. So where to use this?

In Raids and Fractals people will stick with support classes that benefit the whole subgroup.

In PvP and WvW it could be viable but in open world PvE it's again not viable, maybe with a few specific exceptions.

So as I see it we have a spec which is only viable or usable in a few specific contexts.

Just to be clear: I'm only talking about the support side of this spec.

Am I missing something here? I'd love playing the Specter as support in Raids...

I don't see it being a problem in Fractals. Raids might pose an issue... as you don't really gurantee a specific boon in an AOE. But uh... lets be real... most raids are just a stack fest. And you don't actually need that much healing. just enough to remove chip damage as long as people are mindful about staying outside of the stupid.

PvP and WvW might be an issue due to the Init issue, and how slowly a thief will generate shroud from init alone. And how quickly they can get their shroud stripped from basic damage. And by Init issue, I don't mean on a damage front. but the general ability to escape and stay alive.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[Meridian.9103]

Spectre will be bad everywhere you run in slightly larger groups, as it basically anti-scales with the amount of allies. The single target focus is simply a mistake, gw2 is not made for that.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Meridian.9103

[Lurana.7506]

I'm really sad it turned out like this... I was hoping for a support spec for ages 😞

[Dadnir.5038]

As I personally understand it, you have ton of support on a single target and some group wide support.

DPS wise it seemed to have potential and if you had the bit of support you still provide even traited for dps, it's already a good asset for 5 man and 10 man content. It does have potential in 5 man content as a support (With Wells and their shadow step I first thought that it would be Shadow savior rise to prominence, but scrap that, leeching venom is seem to be the clear winner even on this spec (The rate at which he was building those venom stack was insane).

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I think it'll have it's spot. Core thief already brings some unique utility like venoms and shadow portal. Combine this with specter's supportive abilities and his condi output from scepter and shroud and we're looking at a pretty nice dps "off-support". Doing solid dps themselves and padding the holes of main support/healer.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Unless there's some combination I'm missing, it doesn't look good.  The single target nature of the weapons/shadow shroud makes it the least effective buffer in the game.  It's contemporaries all have 5-man and 10-man boons.  The only consistent boon the Specter puts out in AoE is alacrity, making it's chief competitor the staff mirage.

I'm hoping it has good DPS.  If it does, it will be the only thief spec that doesn't anchor or awkwardly force movement during its damage rotations.  

[Lex.3975]

They made thief into a monk. This isn't what I signed up for choosing thief at the start. When someone says thief/rogue/assassin, no one has this kind of gameplay in mind. They wanted thief to be wanted in a party, a debilitator would have been a better fit. Hex enemies so party does better dmg. Plus, a gw2 wasn't built for ally targeting skills and as someone who plays with action camera, clicking on portraits is also not an option.

[wolfyrik.2017]

What really angers me is that this is yet another example of anet utterly failing to learn from their own mistakes. There's a poignant example of why this is a bad idea already in the game's history. Scrapper Funtion gyro used to rely on targetting specific allies into order to revive them. It 'was such a failure that Anet had to turn it into an targetted aoe skill to make it work. How are they going to fix the targetting issues for Thief to avoid the exact same problem they've already seen?

Between this and mechanist and willbender, I've completely lost faith in Anet's ability to deliver in this expansion. All the same espec mistakes of HoT are being revisited with alarming accuracy. What other mistakes are we going to revisit?

[Lurana.7506]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Unless there's some combination I'm missing, it doesn't look good.  The single target nature of the weapons/shadow shroud makes it the least effective buffer in the game.  It's contemporaries all have 5-man and 10-man boons.  The only consistent boon the Specter puts out in AoE is alacrity, making it's chief competitor the staff mirage.

 

That's exactly my point. Even if the support is decent, people in end game content will always want to take the one which is most effective, especially support wise. So it won't be used.

I'd love to have the situation that you can choose between for example support chrono and Specter for boon support and either one is equally up for the job - maybe one having some advantages over the other ag certain bosses.

Say said in the stream that it will be a "Support the king (commander)" type of Spec. But the usability for that is just too narrow.

I hate to say that about the thief spec aa I really was looking forward to it the most 😞

[Eleandra.4859]

Please do not forget that Spectre will be the only support in the game that has to de-target an enemy and stop its damage completely to provide a big part of the specialization's support.

This makes the spectre:
1. The only single target support in a game where (nearly) everything else is aoe.
2. The only support that needs to stop dps 100% (apart from condis ticking) to provide a big part of its support in a world where all the other support specs buff their whole group (or even squad) by doing an enemy focused rotation.
3. The only support spec that does not support itself.

To me this does not bode well and feels like the ANet devs did the worst thing a developer can do: "Falling in love with their own (bad) idea".

Cal Cohen even mentioned that the team was aware of the fact that the concept might be interesting but could be too limited.

In a different game, this elite might have been great or at least interesting but in GW2, based on the admittedly limited data we have at this time I guess it will be DOA.

Let us hope that Anet will either realize that putting a self-absorbed, pseudo-immersive, green field elite into a game with as much legacy as GW2 or that they are aware of the fact that Spectre (and many of the other EoD elites) have severe mechanical issues and limitations that do not work in a world with POF and (to a lesser extend) HOT elites in the game.

The main concern I have is that this is not a numbers (quantitative) issue that can be tweaked later on, the complete mechanical setup of the class is against the design philosophy of 9 years of GW2. If this means ANet is going to change their design philosophy and retroactively change a lot of stuff in the game I would be happy but I guess that is not going to happen.

For me the idea that Cal Cohen brought up during the elite preview "a bunch of Spectres all buffing up the WVW Commander" to keep them alive by it should have been a very clear red flag that the elite spec design team is running in a very wrong direction.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Eleandra.4859

[The Boz.2038]

Party-wide alacrity, barriers, and healing. That's enough to guarantee you a spot in fractals and raids. 

The single-target support (that can also give quickness to multiple people) is just gravy. 

[Dadnir.5038]

The main combo the specter bring to it's party is Scepter AA granting barrier to allies around the impact. Granting allies barrier grant them a venom that apply torment on hit (minior trait). Venoms leech life from shadow art.

You grant barrier, make people apply ton of torment for you, add to their damage and heal them by just waving your wand. Use siphon once in a while to grant might/fury/vigor/swiftness. And if it's not to demanding you can even add some utility skills to the mess (Well to provide Alac or more venoms for condi damage and party life siphon).

It's definitely a solid support/dps for PvE 5 man content. Honestly I'm not even sure why they even put a shroud that support a single ally on top of that (maybe for PvP in order to add to the "+1" job).

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Let's also not forget we're still missing a very big piece of specter support puzzle - the actual encounters in EoD. May be  the situations where ppl gotta split up will be much more frequent and a support that can insta jump from one ally to another will be a huge factor compared to traditional supports that prefer to sit in one place and just move with the group.

Edited October 23, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Sons.5493]

I feel like people are forgetting about the torment vemon trait. In the preview it was stacking as high as 12 in a single Sc/p 3 cast on 1 ally, and the beam pierces... that means potentially a lot of torment, regeneration and quickness besides the extra barrier. 

Also the whole bottom line of traits is more than enough aoe heal to sustain any fractals group. I think this class has insane potential and people are getting too hung up on the single target aspect of it.

[Vidit.7108]

It's going to struggle to find space in PUG fractals because it's stability game is really weak. The healing is less of a problem. It might be a better replacement for Alacgade than say Mirage is though. As like a primary healer/boon supporter I don't see that happening. Damage comes at your fast in fractals and high amounts of single target barrier sounds great in theory but in practice getting that out to people might be hard. 

[Eleandra.4859]

[Disclaimer]: This is obviously a very speculative discussion especially in regards to quantitative balancing.

I am worried about the following thing:
The argument I read is that by using a limited set of mechanics, the Spectre will create an effect strong enough to grant a spot in a group.

That is for me a quantitative argument. If auto attacks would do 50k dps that would also grant the Spectre a slot in groups/raids but it would not be considered a good elite design.

The question for me is: Does the design of the Spectre work with GW2 as a game. And my argument is that it might not.
Obviously if you buff the numbers of skills you can make anything viable, if you add passive and/or secondary effects to skills they can cover for a lack of mechanical design quality.

Single target support, no self buffing and targeted vs. aoe mechanics are not bad design on a green filed (as I wrote above) but they are, in my opinion, bad design in the context of GW2 as it is today.

This gives several options to "secure the spectre a spot":
1. Leave everything as it is and powercreep the elite to valid levels (for raid?, for pvp? for fractals?).
2. Change the spectre conceptually to adapt to the context. And I actually believe they are not so far off the mark here, they just have to take the concept out of the green field and evaluate if it is valid in the GW2 greater context.
3. Change the context to adapt to the spectre (not going to happen).

Or give the spectre a niche where it can be viable. This would be very sad for me. I feel that they did this with deadeye already and it was clear from the first beta event that this would be exactly what would happen. This scenario I would consider complete design failure.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Eleandra.4859

[Lurana.7506]

1 hour ago, Eleandra.4859 said:

Or give the spectre a niche where it can be viable. This would be very sad for me. I feel that they did this with deadeye already and it was clear from the first beta event that this would be exactly what would happen. This scenario I would consider complete design failure.

 

What niche do you mean with your comment about Deadeye?

 

Apart from that, I'm hoping that you guys who suggest that the Specter could be viable in Raids due to the multi target support it got, are right. Or if it isn't, maybe the Devs could change the single target tethering to a multi target (5 ppl for example)  one after the beta. Even if it's just through a trait that changes the tethering to a multi target one. Would be fine for me.

[Loboling.5293]

OP this spec looks more viable than any support thief I could imagine A-Net making. You'll have aoe alacrtity, and some very high personal dps. It's a bit like a banzerker. You bring some extra damage for the group, but you don't sacrifice much for it. The flip side to that is that you can focus allies to keep them alive in a crunch. So it's like a scourge combined with a banner zerker. It'll be awesome, and while it might not find itself to be META, it'll certainly be viable and even borderline broken in some moments. You can spot heal, you can stealth allies, you can perma alacrity buff them, you can put out at least some quickness, all while mostly focusing on offence, and optimizing your damage rotation. It doesn't seem to have much of a support rotation, which is GOOD. I don't want thief support to play like a druid, etc. Focus on damage, and aoe boon support (just cast wells), while you save people who step into bad stuff. 

I know a lot of people would've loved a support that's OP like firebrand, but I think it's good A-Net isn't making the same mistake twice. Hopefully, as hard as this would be for guardians, they make legendary monsters able to hit through aegis, then the balance between support is much more in line. Shame they ruined the aegis mechanic with firebrand, since it no longer has a significant cost to use. Just spam as needed and good, allies survived instead of go splat. Scourge and Firebrand are terrible specs, that may be strong but they make the overall game worse. I'm glad Thief, isn't adding to that. It'll be powerful, useful, and very strong in some situations. Plus, it looks like an entirely new mechanic to play with, single target focus support. As a big time thief player, I'm very happy with this. But I get how in comparison to what's already in the game, it does lack the same luster. But I think that's good. 

[Asum.4960]

With right positioning for the Beam of Endless Night and some BD, Specter technically can do perma Quickness on 10+ Targets, on top of perma Alacrity for 5 Targets as well as AoE Heals and Barriers, on top of the single Target immortality support Tether, all while pumping out massive amounts of Torment via Rot Willow Venom, without ever even hitting an enemy. 

 

That on top of blinks and Shadow Portal, this is coming dangerously close to old Chrono for Fractals, and depending on how clunky is it (esp. the Quickness Beam), has the potential to replace FB+Ren. 

1 Specter + 4 Scourge/cRen/cFB looks like is going to be nuts for Fractals^^

Edited October 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Loboling.5293]

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

With right positioning for the Beam of Endless Night and some BD, Specter technically can do perma Quickness on 10+ Targets, on top of perma Alacrity for 5 Targets as well as AoE Heals and Barriers, on top of the single Target immortality support Tether, all while pumping out massive amounts of Torment via Rot Willow Venom, without ever even hitting an enemy.

I think, unless I'm mistaken, that the quickness support only works against multiple enemies. So quickness is not as reliable in some boss encounters.

[Asum.4960]

6 minutes ago, Loboling.5293 said:

I think, unless I'm mistaken, that the quickness support only works against multiple enemies. So quickness is not as reliable in some boss encounters.

It's allied Target. You target one player and the rest stands in the beam (3 target limit), and everybody gets 14-28 seconds (depending on BD) Quickness on a 3 second CD/6 Initiative (as well as 7 Stacks of Rot Willow/Torment application per player due to Barrier, and Regen).

Edited October 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Tails.9372]

23 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

With right positioning for the Beam of Endless Night and some BD, Specter technically can do perma Quickness on 10+ Targets

No it can't, seems like you never played initiative intensive thief builds before. P/P DE has to band over backwards to sustain what is essentially a 3 ini skill and that is with an e-spec specific ini reg trait that offers as much ini per sec as all other ini reg traits combined. Specter simply doesn't have the ini sustain to keep up "perma Quickness on 10+ Targets" in PvE (and especially not in competitive if it ends up having increased ini costs there). If quickness support is what you want it's better to just bring a Harbinger / Reaper and make them pulse it or bring anything else that is able to apply quickness more reliably (and preferably to itself too).

Edited October 23, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Asum.4960]

21 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

No it can't, seems like you never played initiative intensive thief builds before. P/P DE has to band over backwards to sustain what is essentially a 3 ini skill and that is with a e-spec specific ini reg trait that offers as much ini per sec as all other ini reg traits combined. Specter simply doesn't have the ini sustain to keep up "perma Quickness on 10+ Targets" in PvE (and especially not in competitive if it ends up having increased ini costs there). If quickness support is what you want its better to just bring a Harbinger / Reaper and make them pulse it or bring anything else that is able to apply quickness more reliably (and preferably to itself too).

Technically. I'm not saying it will be practical to have one Specter for 10 player squads. Probably would be too clunky to aim and stack for the beam anyway, 5 man caps on Alacrity, heals and Barrier aside. 

For 5 players it seems very feasible though. 

 

6 Initiative every 14-28 seconds (depending on BD) at 1 Initiative p/s clearly is possible with zero extra Initiative gain.

 

Reaper is self-Quickness only and while Harbinger has an easier time with it's plain AoE Quickness, Specter does perma 5 man Alacrity, Barrier, heals and the potential of Revives as well on top, all while likely still doing higher DPS as support through Rot Willow Venoms, probably even without self-Quickness - but even if not, since you don't need a secondary support for Alacrity and can do 4 DPS+Specter, group DPS will almost certainly be higher. 

On top of that, unlike Harbinger with 11k HP, light armor and 0% passive damage reduction, Specter won't fall over wen sneezed at without a Aegis spamming FB (which as Quickbrand would then make Quickbringer redundant anyway)

Edited October 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Tails.9372]

9 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

6 Initiative every 14-28 seconds (depending on BD) at 1 Initiative p/s clearly is possible with zero extra Initiative gain.

That's how it works for "up to 3 targets" but not for more. Quickness is applied on hit so you would have to use it way more often to cover a 5 man group let alone a 10 man group (which you could never fully cover since you would be always excluding yourself) which is not susuainable with 100% uptime for "everyone".