Mechanist design is very-very questionable.

[Bomboed.5697]

1. Why devs say that Mechanist pet is not intended to be permanent, if the entire traitline works only when pet is active and there is no profit from dismissing it?
    
2. What engineer gets from this spec when pet is dead or not active, if it replaces toolbelt completely and always?
    
3. Why all minor traits are wasted on stat inheritance and basic pet abilities, if they can be integrated into pet baseline, just like with ranger pets?
    
4. What even the point of choosing between different stats being inherited if it is already determined by what stats engineer has? Pet can't inherit stats that you don't have and you always want it to inherit stats that you have.
    
5. Why devs say that pet is highly customizable, when there is literally no choice in traits, because they have heavy synergy withing same line, but absolutely no synergy between different lines? It is always better to have all condi traits together or all support traits together or all power traits together.
    
6. Is it even okay that pet abilities, which replace toolbelt, are also tied to traits? Isn't it better to tie them as toolbelt skills to Signets and allow traits to provide something interesting for both pet and engineer? It will allow players to choose what they want more and combine mech commands with regular toolbelt skills.
    
7. How devs suppose to create a balance between Signets, which are created and balanced without toolbelt skills, and other Utility skills, which are created and balanced with their associated toolbelt skills in mind? What about majority of utility skills, which are good only with or only because of their toolbelt skills?
    
8. Why devs think that "Mechanist will be welcomed to any group", when there is a long history of AI-based specs being not welcomed in any type of group content?

Edited October 26, 2021 by Bomboed.5697

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Why devs say that Mechanist pet is not intended to be permanent, if the entire traitline works only when pet is active and there is no profit from dismissing it?

This shows to me that Anet really didn't think this whole thing through... They say that the design intent is that the pet is not permanent to make it different from ranger, but the entire design of mechanist goes against this concept.

Honestly.... It is a pure role-playing spec. It doesn't seem Anet actually thought about gameplay at all, they just went like "people want to have a robot, let's just give them one, it doesn't matter how it works and what it does".

[Bomboed.5697]

42 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Honestly.... It is a pure role-playing spec. It doesn't seem Anet actually thought about gameplay at all, they just went like "people want to have a robot, let's just give them one, it doesn't matter how it works and what it does".

And this is very sad. Because even with all problems with AI, engineer with pet has a lot of potential.
The engineer as a class has a lot of potential. But it wasted with refusal to do things properly.

[Cisii.8317]

Silently waiting for a rework after 3 years much like the scrapper that will allow the mech to be behind us all the time like a Jojo stand

[Lynx.9058]

Overall, mechanist and catalyst are both looking to be my favorite especs with EoD, however they both have extreme design issues that make it clear Anet didn't really pay attention when coming up with them.

Mechanist needs the toolbelt when the mech is on cooldown, and all of the traits should apply to the mechanist when the mech is not active as well.  They've based the spec around simultaneously having and not having the mech up 100% of the time.  If you don't have it up, you're crippled compared to every other class and spec in the game until you can resummon it, which can take an extreme amount of time in any combat situation.

I've said it in the other threads: Every trait needs a second effect that works on the mechanist when the mech is inactive.  The mech should be put on F5, toolbelts F1-F4 should be available when the mech is inactive, and F4 should allow you to mount or merge with the mech and basically use it's hitpoint pool as a barrier, kinda like necro when in shroud.

Catalyst has similar issues but not quite as severe; they built the spec around being a melee bruiser yet gave it no durability, and the F5 for catalyst is on both a cooldown and energy requirement and is simultaneously more difficult and less useful than many of the utility/weapon skills.

[Amadeus.5687]

14 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

1. Why devs say that Mechanist pet is not intended to be permanent, if the entire traitline works only when pet is active and there is no profit from dismissing it?
    
2. What engineer gets from this spec when pet is dead or not active, if it replaces toolbelt completely and always?
    
3. Why all minor traits are wasted on stat inheritance and basic pet abilities, if they can be integrated into pet baseline, just like with ranger pets?
    
4. What even the point of choosing between different stats being inherited if it is already determined by what stats engineer has? Pet can't inherit stats that you don't have and you always want it to inherit stats that you have.
    
5. Why devs say that pet is highly customizable, when there is literally no choice in traits, because they have heavy synergy withing same line, but absolutely no synergy between different lines? It is always better to have all condi traits together or all support traits together or all power traits together.
    
6. Is it even okay that pet abilities, which replace toolbelt, are also tied to traits? Isn't it better to tie them as toolbelt skills to Signets and allow traits to provide something interesting for both pet and engineer? It will allow players to choose what they want more and combine mech commands with regular toolbelt skills.
    
7. How devs suppose to create a balance between Signets, which are created and balanced without toolbelt skills, and other Utility skills, which are created and balanced with their associated toolbelt skills in mind? What about majority of utility skills, which are good only with or only because of their toolbelt skills?
    
8. Why devs think that "Mechanist will be welcomed to any group", when there is a long history of AI-based specs being not welcomed in any type of group content?

 

#5 is honestly the biggest bummer to me right now after seeing the preview. 
It's the most limiting elite spec in terms of build crafting and it saddens me. The mechanist traitline in of it self is super boring, cause as you wrote; You always just pick top row for condition dmg.
Furthermore if you wanna play condition dmg they pretty much force you to also pick Explosive trait line, with the way the top row interact with explosives. 

Likewise the removal of toolbelt severely limit which utility skills that will be worth using. We are left with 3 core stunbreaks and one stunbreak from the elite spec to pick from, where two of the core sun breaks will be elixirs and the last one Utility googles which no one uses, Just as an example to how we get further limited.
Why is there no stun breaking mech command??

I don't get why they didn't just give us 3 different Mech to pick from if they wanted to give us the 3 different playstyles, with more interesting traits to chose from.
Even better; Each of our utility skills should give it's own Mech command and we should have 4 mech commands. Flamethrower Kit could give it a flamethrower attack, Rocket Turret a Rocket launcher and so forth. See that would have been fun buildcrafting.

In the end I wish we just had gotten something else, with a more specialized focus condition dmg, so we could have several interesting traits to pick from 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Amadeus.5687

[Zzik.5873]

17 hours ago, Kaizoku.1298 said:

Silently waiting for a rework after 3 years much like the scrapper that will allow the mech to be behind us all the time like a Jojo stand

This would be boring behong believe. The spec have problemes in its design, but removing the AI aspect would just make it boring and generic.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

all of the traits should apply to the mechanist when the mech is not active as well.  

This. There are a couple that do this - Channeling Circuits allows the engineer to continue applying alacrity through barrier (available through the mace auto chain and one of the signets) and J-Drive has both the bombardment and the signet improvements.

 

They really all need to have some form of effect like this. Especially if the mechanist isn't supposed to have the mech out permanently - some of the traits should possibly have features where you might choose not to have the golem out so you can benefit from the trait in other ways. For instance, Barrier Engine could make the engineer pulse barrier (but possibly not as much as the golem) if the golem isn't out, while Jade Dynamo might have a smaller chance of turning the engineer's attacks into explosions while the golem is on the bench. Similar ideas could apply to the other traits. Right now, even putting aside all the other criticisms, it just makes mechanist feel unfinished.

[Bomboed.5697]

21 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

This would be boring behong believe. The spec have problemes in its design, but removing the AI aspect would just make it boring and generic.

It will make it functional. AI specs are boring by design, because they usually have very passive gameplay. They are also unplayable in all gamemode outside of openworld farming.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

rangers play soulbeast in PvE group content.
scrapper gyro was changed into wells to avoid stupid AI movements.
necro minions isn't played in PvE group content.

guardian spirit weapons got changed into skills.
...
nut they designed the new engi around having a stupid golem pet, not even permanent, and with nothing to compensate the lack of toolbelt skills when the golem isn't up except for a random laser strike that will cause unwanted aggro.
in short a clunky sPvP spec which will not have its place in WvW nor in PvE group content.

the golem is cool and its ability selection gives some sense of customization but if thats all the new trait line does then not having the golem up will be very detrimental.
and the new signet only activating from the golem when it is up is also a problem.
the concept is cool but the design sucks. a bit like any other spec for the expac.

what about the attack button to force the pet to go and attack a specific target? it is gone. sigh...

[Amadeus.5687]

2 hours ago, ledernierrempart.6871 said:

in short a clunky sPvP spec which will not have its place in WvW nor in PvE group content.

In won't see any play in sPvP either as it stand 😅

[Kodama.6453]

42 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

In won't see any play in sPvP either as it stand 😅

You gotta admit, tho, they really nailed the thematic of the spec.

They even gave it a skill called "sky circus". They really can't be more direct in telling us that engineers are just clowns for them.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Amadeus.5687]

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You gotta admit, tho, they really nailed the thematic of the spec.

They even gave it a skill called "sky circus". They really can't be more direct in telling us that engineers are just clowns for them.

 

haha omfg haven't tought of that, but that's true!

[hugo.4705]

I don't see how it is not customizable!!! 3 possibilities for each F slot, it is 27 possibilities!!!!! Lol indeed, not customizable. I don't understand any of the complain

[Amadeus.5687]

1 minute ago, hugo.4705 said:

I don't see how it is not customizable!!! 3 possibilities for each F slot, it is 27 possibilities!!!!! Lol indeed, not customizable. I don't understand any of the complain

Lets try to explain it ones more then;

We can't freely pick which Mech Command we want to use, cause they are linked to the traits. In the current state it's also the traits that make the Mech scale with our stats. Which means If I wanna play condition dmg it's all 3 top rows I pick, so I get a Mech that can actually do; Condition damage.

It's very much not a very customizable elite specialization, cause it limits our choices, not increasing them.

We usually have 5 tool belt skills, now we are left with 3 mech commands.
We usually have aces to 6 stunbreak, 7 with elite specs, we are now left with 4, that's also less options.
 

[Bomboed.5697]

1 hour ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

We usually have aces to 6 stunbreak, 7 with elite specs, we are now left with 4, that's also less options.

Its not only the 4, but 4 of the worst ones.

[Xanadrine.4352]

2 min is a long time in gaming, they need to let us buff and heal the mech if they are giving it a 2 min cd on resummon. That is ridiculous amount of down time for an entire traitline. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The number of options is irrelevant.  Anet can take everything away, but so long as they give me an "I win" button, I'm going to win.

That is... effectively the burden being placed on the Mech.  The mech has to be so powerful that it needs to compensate for the lack of toolbelt skills.  This, in theory, is wholly possible.  In practice, I'm not sure it will.  AI builds tend to be inconsistent in their performance, being inaccurate and easily ignored.  Unless this mech is given immense strength, most fights will end with the enemy breezing right past the mech and focusing down the significantly nerfed engineer.

 

Now, if I were to say what my biggest design gripe with the Mechanist is, it would be the lack of a role.  The other specs have something that they do.  The Scrapper took many redesigns, but it now works as a tank, buffer/healer, and frontline fighter.  Heck, I'm sitting on my scrapper right now in WvW.  The Holosmith, in contrast, is a high damage but high risk duelist and DPS monkey.  The Mechanist is... I don't know.  Alacrity bot, in a bizarrely more literal sense?  The mech exists and it does some stuff, but the only thing it looks to be proficient at well enough to call a role is its alacrity application.  Otherwise, everything on it just seems like inferior versions of what the holosmith or the scrapper do.  

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Lets try to explain it ones more then;

We can't freely pick which Mech Command we want to use, cause they are linked to the traits. In the current state it's also the traits that make the Mech scale with our stats. Which means If I wanna play condition dmg it's all 3 top rows I pick, so I get a Mech that can actually do; Condition damage.

It's very much not a very customizable elite specialization, cause it limits our choices, not increasing them.

We usually have 5 tool belt skills, now we are left with 3 mech commands.
We usually have aces to 6 stunbreak, 7 with elite specs, we are now left with 4, that's also less options.
 

Pretty much this. It's not quite so bad as all builds being just across the row - I could see 2-3-1 working as a melee power spec that couples with the Explosives line, for instance - but most of the traits just aren't designed to work together. There may be 27 configurations on paper, but more than half are either not really viable or are niche setups that you'd only take because taking the normal choice would mean adding more on top of something that's already capped.

As things stand, in fact, you could probably merge the adept and master traits together without significantly reducing the amount of genuine customisation available. 

Ranger, by contrast... every pet is at least theoretically supposed to be viable. Practice might not hold up to that, but at the very least you could probably ask for a pet to be buffed without getting a "why are you even trying to make that work, those traits weren't intended to be used together" response.

Edited October 26, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Bomboed.5697]

So, all questions are still relevant....

[Obtena.7952]

The only question that's relevant is if people like it and play it. I'm pretty sure almost no one has any academic hangups about why devs say this or that. In the end, it's about how the spec is implemented regardless of what some script in a reveal says. 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

48 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The only question that's relevant is if people like it and play it. I'm pretty sure almost no one has any academic hangups about why devs say this or that. In the end, it's about how the spec is implemented regardless of what some script in a reveal says. 

 

 

I mean, I have academic hang-ups about that, and you know I always have. People liking something and playing something, is not corollary to whether something is actually good to have in the game.

 

People like taking drugs, smoking cigarettes' and drinking, and people like to have a good time while their high, smoking and drunk...doesn't mean drugs are good for you, it doesn't mean cigarettes' don't cause kitten, and it doesn't mean drinking and driving shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

Like the specs... Mech is fun to play because it is just fun to see your AI do all the work for you while you sit there and laugh at enemies struggling to get near the AI without exploding. That doesn't mean that behavior is healthy for the game.

[Obtena.7952]

29 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Like the specs... Mech is fun to play because it is just fun to see your AI do all the work for you while you sit there and laugh at enemies struggling to get near the AI without exploding. That doesn't mean that behavior is healthy for the game.

Feel free to expand then ... because THAT is the kind of relevant feedback we should be seeing, not  speculative crystal ball garbage from people who simply dislike the theme and trying to make convincing arguments about changing it without even play it.

Do you feel that Mechanist is not healthy for the game? Howso?

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

20 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Do you feel that Mechanist is not healthy for the game? Howso?

 

So it's not that i think the mechanist is unhealthy...it's the way this class, and really all the elite specs are designed which are unhealthy...in particular how it treats diversity.

 

Like others mentioned, the spec is so closed off from it's trait-lines, that the spec is an all or nothing "Invest in the Mech or Die." spec. On top of that, the trait-lines are designed around granting stats to the player...which is a huge HUGE mistake, because the spec is thus designed around a completely passive element of the game.

 

In other words...you aren't fighting the mech...you are fighting the stats of the mech. 

 

Likewise as the Mechanist...you aren't playing the game, the stats are playing the game for you.

 

For the sake of diversity...every single elite spec, needs a complete rethinking and really just a lesson in what synergies are...because that is what is lacking from every spec...

 

Surprisingly synergistics is the main "thing" behind my constant yapping about complexity theory... and low and behold we got specs that have no synergy which just clearly indicates that my voice has fallen on deaf ears. I'm not sour about that im not expecting for Anet to read my posts and exercise them...but I just hate being right about something because honestly this whole beta coulda been totally different and could have completely avoided such a bad reception. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Bomboed.5697]

I just played some more sPVP as mechanist. I enjoed it, but for very-very wrong reasons.
I took 3/3/1 in Machinst, 1/1/2 in Explosive and 1/3/2 in Inventions. I took Mace and Shield. I took Wizard amulet. I took Grenades, Barrier signet, stunbreak signet and Elite Signet.

In this way Mech deals even more damage, than me. I just run around with mace like an idiot, occasionally threw grenades and usually die. But my Mech revives me via killing someone by its own.

My conclusions:
Ranged mech is the only way to play in sPVP, because it is the only way it deals damage and not dies in seconds.

Elite signet is mandatory. Stubreak signet is mandatory. Barrier OR teleport one are almost mandatory. ALL other utilities work pretty bad on mechanist. Having one kit is mandatory. Sadly, Mortar is not an option because elite signet is mandatory.
Ranged mech deals so much damage, so it will be definitely nerfed to the ground in sPvP. This is bad, because it is the only fun thing in this spec.
This is a one-trick-pony spec with very little customization destined to be broken or nerfed to the ground.