why are dungeons dead?

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

I think the problem with dungeons is that they weren't updated along with the rest of the game.  When it was just core game it was fine, but once the expansions started to drop they needed QoL updates, but never received them.

For example updating mechanics on bosses (or even changing some of them all together), making trash mobs something that you actually have to deal with as oppose to just run from, and most importantly giving dungeons loot you can't find elsewhere (other than the skins you get by using tokens).
Taking GW1 as an example, when people went to the Underworld or Fissure of Woe  they would clear everything because those were pretty much the only places you could get ectos and obsidian shards respectively. So killing those enemies was an essential part of the area. And the end chest of the The Fissue of Woe was the only place that one could get the super rare Obsidian Shard sword.

I think that having exclusive, desirable, rare, tradable loot/skins drop from bosses would attract more people to dungeons. Having trash mobs drop items that are needed for say cooking or other recipes, would also create an incentive to not skip them.
Dungeons needed to become intertwined with the rest of the game, but instead they were set aside and forgotten.

I think the problem here is more with people refusing to understand/accept that fractals are updated dungeons.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I think the problem here is more with people refusing to understand/accept that fractals are updated dungeons.

And by this logic, raids are the updated fractals. Lol

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

And by this logic, raids are the updated fractals. Lol

I don't see the relevance to the thread or my post.

...and even if it was relevant to anything here (but it clearly isn't), it would still be absolutely wrong, considering we got new fractals released after raids.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't see the relevance to the thread or my post.

I applied your own logic and your confused right? It’s cause your logic is confusing and makes no sense. That’s why my post is relevant. The fact I have to explain that is kind of ridiculous (probably because your are feeling some type of way).
 

Apply yourself more and stop catching feelings.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I applied your own logic and your confused right? It’s cause your logic is confusing and makes no sense. That’s why my post is relevant. The fact I have to explain that is kind of ridiculous (probably because your are feeling some type of way).

 

How did you "apply my own logic" here? The point is you didn't, what are you missing about my previous post? Is it this: "...and even if it was relevant to anything here (but it clearly isn't), it would still be absolutely wrong, considering we got new fractals released after raids." ?

Seriously, at this point it just seems you're bent on going "after my logic" when you're not interested in understanding it in the first place. Your response to my post made no sense and I explained why. Your post is irrelevant, because it's irrelevant. Why are you even bringing up raids here anyways? Why are you pretending that 10 player group content = 5 player group content? Why are you pretending that raids are "updated fractals", when they got intertwined releases? When I say your response isn't relevant, it's because it isn't, not because you think I need some excuse, lol.

What's ridiculous here is the fact that you think you're explaining anything here while you're missing where you're blatantly wrong about it being "the same logic".

Quote

Apply yourself more and stop catching feelings.

Well said.

 

Now if you have anything to say as for why you think fractals aren't updated dungeons, then go ahead, because that would be a relevant answer to my inital post. Otherwise spare me your next strawman, I'm just not interested.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

How did you "apply my own logic" here? The point is you didn't, what are you missing about my previous post? Is it this: "...and even if it was relevant to anything here (but it clearly isn't), it would still be absolutely wrong, considering we got new fractals released after raids." ?

Seriously, at this point it just seems you're bent on going "after my logic" when you're not interested in understanding it in the first place. Your response to my post made no sense and I explained why. Your post is irrelevant, because it's irrelevant. Why are you even bringing up raids here anyways? Why are you pretending that 10 player group = 5 player group? Why are you pretending that raids are "updated fractals", when they got intertwined releases? When I say your response isn't relevant, it's because it isn't, not because you think I need some excuse, lol.

What's ridiculous here is the fact that you think you're explaining anything here while you're missing where you're blatantly wrong about it being "the same logic".

Well said.

 

You said the following...correct: " Fractals, are updated dungeons."

 

By proxy, someone can say that "Raids, are updated Fractals."

 

This is your logic, being applied somewhere else to see if the logic makes sense. which it clearly does not, therefor your logic is flawed. This is not hard to understand.

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

You said the following...correct: " Fractals, are updated dungeons."

 

By proxy, someone can say that "Raids, are updated Fractals."

 

This is your logic, being applied somewhere else to see if the logic makes sense. which it clearly does not, therefor your logic is flawed. This is not hard to understand.

How did you "apply my own logic" here? The point is you didn't, what are you missing about my previous post? Is it this: "...and even if it was relevant to anything here (but it clearly isn't), it would still be absolutely wrong, considering we got new fractals released after raids." ?

Seriously, at this point it just seems you're bent on going "after my logic" when you're not interested in understanding it in the first place. Your response to my post made no sense and I explained why. Your post is irrelevant, because it's irrelevant. Why are you even bringing up raids here anyways? Why are you pretending that 10 player group content = 5 player group content? Why are you pretending that raids are "updated fractals", when they got intertwined releases? When I say your response isn't relevant, it's because it isn't, not because you think I need some excuse, lol.

 

Stop dodging just because you understand you're wrong. I explained to you why it's not the same logic in the very first response, you keep avoiding the facts, which won't make you correct.

18 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Apply yourself more and stop catching feelings.

 

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now if you have anything to say as for why you think fractals aren't updated dungeons, then go ahead, because that would be a relevant answer to my inital post. Otherwise spare me your next strawman, I'm just not interested.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How did you "apply my own logic" here? The point is you didn't, what are you missing about my previous post? Is it this: "...and even if it was relevant to anything here (but it clearly isn't), it would still be absolutely wrong, considering we got new fractals released after raids." ?

Seriously, at this point it just seems you're bent on going "after my logic" when you're not interested in understanding it in the first place. Your response to my post made no sense and I explained why. Your post is irrelevant, because it's irrelevant. Why are you even bringing up raids here anyways? Why are you pretending that 10 player group content = 5 player group content? Why are you pretending that raids are "updated fractals", when they got intertwined releases? When I say your response isn't relevant, it's because it isn't, not because you think I need some excuse, lol.

 

First, relax and take a deep breath.

 

You're creating made-up criterion to differentiate the two. Example: Dragon Response Missions and Dungeons don't get updates...they are both 5 player content...and they both have pretty meaningless loot tables...does that mean Dragon Response Missions can also be considered "the updated Dungeon" 

 

Your criteria you are creating to try to validate your logic is "made up"...its not real.

 

Logic is universally applicable. So when you apply that logic and it's inconsistent, it means the logic is wrong.

 

Anyway, got to go on about my day, you should too...say what you have to say...ill read it, but you won't hear back from me.

[Sobx.1758]

28 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

First, relax and take a deep breath.

I am relaxed, thanks. Maybe instead of constantly pretending it has anything to do with my emotional state, you should stop dodging facts that obviously prove you wrong.

Quote

You're creating made-up criterion to differentiate the two.

No, I'm not, I kept explaining it from the beginning, my post and your response are talking about 2 different things and they're not "the same logic". I already explained why and you repeatedly dodged it.

Quote

Your criteria you are creating to try to validate your logic is "made up"...its not real.

If releases of 2 types of content are intertwined, then neither of them is a replacement of the other. It's not a "made up criteria", it's an obviosly logical fact that you desperately try to dodge.

Quote

Logic is universally applicable. So when you apply that logic and it's inconsistent, it means the logic is wrong.

But these two "cases" aren't the same. You know why? That's why:

How did you "apply my own logic" here? The point is you didn't, what are you missing about my previous post? Is it this: "...and even if it was relevant to anything here (but it clearly isn't), it would still be absolutely wrong, considering we got new fractals released after raids." ?

Seriously, at this point it just seems you're bent on going "after my logic" when you're not interested in understanding it in the first place. Your response to my post made no sense and I explained why. Your post is irrelevant, because it's irrelevant. Why are you even bringing up raids here anyways? Why are you pretending that 10 player group content = 5 player group content? Why are you pretending that raids are "updated fractals", when they got intertwined releases? When I say your response isn't relevant, it's because it isn't, not because you think I need some excuse, lol.

 

Stop dodging just because you understand you're wrong. I explained to you why it's not the same logic in the very first response, you keep avoiding the facts, which won't make you correct.

57 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Apply yourself more and stop catching feelings.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 11/6/2021 at 6:50 PM, zombyturtle.5980 said:

That's fair. I imagine COF and AC are pretty easy to get people for explorable. SE maybe not so much. 

 On NA, it's incredibly easy to fill SE p1/p3. SE p1 is the single fastest path in the game, and there's enough familiarity and enough skips in p3 to make that one efficient too. The only hard one to get is p2, as there's a much higher chance of the escort NPC bugging out, and there's just a lot of unavoidable trash mobs. I don't have much trouble filling SE story either, but it helps that every single story mode is incredibly easy to solo, with the two exceptions being HotW and CoE final bosses. Those two are soloable as well, but I actually have to build for those specifically to make it easy.

AC story is soloable in less than 10 mins, and an AC merge of all three paths can take less than 30 mins, meaning you have 4 of the 8 Dungeon Frequenter paths cleared in about 40-50 mins. SE p1/p3 are popular on NA, and those bring you up to 6. For the last 2 paths you can pick any from TA story/up/fwd, CM story/p1/p3, and you'll be done in well under 2 hours. TA fwd in particular has two (arguably three) pretty solid mesmer portal skips greatly increasing clear speed.

Edited November 10, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[SkinnyT.5382]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:07 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

I think the problem here is more with people refusing to understand/accept that fractals are updated dungeons.

I understand that, but I was referring to the other ones; the ones released with base game specifically.
Ascalonian Catacombs, Twilight Arbor, Honor of waves, etc. Those dungeons never got the QoL updates that they needed to keep up with the developing/growing game. Fractals is an updated version of dungeons sure, but they are also different in the fact that they focus on past events in the world of Tyria, as oppose to dungeons which focus on side stories in specific maps. And that's great, I love being able to experience some of those historical events, but with that said , even fractals lack some of the things I mention such as exclusive skins that only drop from certain bosses (with the exception of maybe like 1 or 2 fractals).
At the end of the day all I'm saying is that ANET didn't address the original dungeons the best way possible; they just set it aside and moved on to the next thing. Just like they are setting aside raids and moving on to strike missions. All these different aspects of the game have their place and uniqueness, but when not provided with good QoL they will die. The original dungeons were the first victims.

Edited November 12, 2021 by SkinnyT.5382

[Astralporing.1957]

Why are the dungeons dead? Because Anet gave up on them and delivered to them a swift kick over the edge at some point in the past. The current state they're in is something Anet wants - they don't want people to return to that content, because they do not want to put any effort into it anymore.

[Jables.4659]

On 11/12/2021 at 8:43 AM, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Fractals is an updated version of dungeons sure, but they are also different in the fact that they focus on past events in the world of Tyria, as oppose to dungeons which focus on side stories in specific maps.

I love the game-play side of Fractals, but they've always felt disconnected from the world itself.  I sometimes appreciate the Fractals that give us a glimpse into past events (ex: Urban Battleground and Twilight Oasis), but with so many of them I literally have no idea how they connect to Tyria.  It just feel like a missed opportunity for world-building. 

[firedragon.8953]

While they aren't as popular as fractals, I did just complete my "Dungeon Master" achievement a couple weeks ago which requires me to run every dungeon path at least once. It's been on my bucket list for a while. I just found people running them in the evenings (OCX/SEA time zones) using the LFG tool. Surprisingly if I just checked once and a while there were people running them. Some people obviously ran them a lot because they knew the dungeons like the back of their hand.

That being said, compared to fractals, the rewards are not as good. Also, core Dungeon AI can be SUUUPPER annoying with NPCs bugging out to the point that you have to restart the dungeon path.

Honestly I do like Dungeons and am really happy I could experience them all even these many years after their release, and recommend anyone to do it just to check them out. But fractals are basically better in almost every way, and it shows with the availability of PUG groups. During my "dungeon grind" there were often group saying stuff like "Story, watch cutscene" and stuff in the LFG and generally there were 3 or 4 people already in the group, so...dunno...guess it can be pretty hit or miss.

Edited November 16, 2021 by firedragon.8953

[PeterRedhill.3182]

It's funny because people tell you dungeons are good for xp while leveling, but then you open the lfg panel and find your current levels dungeon and there's nobody in it.  So you just ignore it and move on with your life.  I mean the fact that it's not automated like the other top games is already a turn off, but no players is a worse one.  Also every time you hit a level with a corresponding dungeon you get mail that you just delete because nobody is doing them so what's the point?

[Bingus.4236]

I have only done the story versions, I had no trouble finding people for them. Ascalon and Twilight were busy. Caudecus Manor, there was someone there who was advertising to help new people go through. The others, I put up groups myself and I found no trouble filling them.  This was at EU prime time.

 

Dungeons were specifically the story about Destiny's Edge characters, so I am not sure how there could be more of them. Fractals have the freedom to keep adding more in their format.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Bingus.4236 said:

Dungeons were specifically the story about Destiny's Edge characters, so I am not sure how there could be more of them.

Only the story modes, and even that was not something necessary. Remember, that they created two more dungeons that we currently have - Molten and Aether. It's just that they removed those later, cut them in half and moved the pieces to Fractals.

[Mesket.5728]

Unfortunately, Fractals are cheaper. Dungeons requires a place in the world, a story to tell (how are done in gw2), 3 paths, tokens with armor and weapon skins and are usually larger.

 

At the same time, players dont really value all that effort much and just go speedy gonzalez skipping what they can.

 

I would've loved more dungeons but it is what it is. No surprise now they also moved from Raids to Strike missions. Same way of go cheaper and cheaper production wise.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Mesket.5728

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:56 AM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I applied your own logic and your confused right? It’s cause your logic is confusing and makes no sense. That’s why my post is relevant. The fact I have to explain that is kind of ridiculous (probably because your are feeling some type of way).
 

Apply yourself more and stop catching feelings.

 

 

In terms of design, raids aren't anything like fractals. Raids, are more like dungeons (Explore a bit to get to the next boss.  NPC giving exposition, etc.) and, given how ANet killed Dungeons with HoT at the announcement of raids, it's safe to assume that raids were their replacement.  This is more true by the fact that more fractals came out along side with raids.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Too many weird mechanics.

[piitb.7635]

No incentive to do dungeons.

 

Dungeons only have exotic gear, and its kind of a grind to get pieces.  So other than fashion wars, the trading post will have something for a couple of gold of equivalent stats 

 

When Fractals came out, all those years, they had some ascended gear.  So it made fractals instantly more popular..

 

Dungeons could be brought back into the fold if they made the rewards worth it.  One idea is, if you collect a set of armor, there is a mechanic that you can convert that set into a set of ascended/legendary gear.

Edited December 26, 2021 by piitb.7635

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 12/23/2021 at 6:52 PM, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

it's safe to assume that raids were their replacement. 

Anet could drop a new dungeon update tomorrow for all we know. Like mentioned previously….the criteria for this assumption is not real.
 

Its a belief…a conspiracy…a hunch…whatever you want to call it…that’s what that is.

That’s also why it happens to be logically inconsistent …like most hunches, beliefs and conspiracies are. One guy over here says “raids replaced dungeons,” another guy says “fractals replaced dungeons,” well which is it? Make up your mind.
 

In conclusion there is no truth to any of this made up logic until you actually have evidence…that’s what it actually means for something to be true lol…smh

Edited December 27, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That’s also why it happens to be logically inconsistent …like most hunches, beliefs and conspiracies are. One guy over here says “raids replaced dungeons,” another guy says “fractals replaced dungeons,” well which is it? Make up your mind.

Pretty obviously fractals, which are much closer to dungeons in structure than raids are. Also because of the timeline of introducing each of these types of content. Mind "made up" long ago.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Pretty obviously fractals, which are much closer to dungeons in structure than raids are. Also because of the timeline of introducing each of these types of content. Mind "made up" long ago.

Cool. Argue with Alymer about that, not me. I have about 0 interest in this fiction you guys have created here

Edited December 27, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Cool. Argue with Alymer about that, not me. I have about 0 interest in this fiction you guys have created here

What am I supposed to argue with Alymer here? You brought up what I said and wrote something about "making up our mind". My mind is already "made up", I'm not some sort of hive mind, so someone else having different opinion on the matter doesn't change what I previously said. And you were already arguing against what I said in this thread, except with 0 specifics, while carefully avoiding what I actually said.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Sobx.1758