Power Revenant needs a damage buff.

[Buran.3796]

This is exclusively related to WvW/PvP. Power Revenant also is in need of more damage in PvE but that never will compete vs condis, so I won’t waste time arguing about that.

 

  Now about power (strike damage based) builds in competitive game modes: I don’t use a lot of classes (mostly heavy classes, and a bit of Necro, Ranger or Thief sometimes) but I swap builds a lot: power and condi core Rev, Herald and Renegade, power DH, celestial Firebrand, support core Guardian, power Spellbreaker, hybrid Berseker… Oftenly I chose one build and play it for a week or two in both roaming and/or PvP, and usually test how good are at dealing damage (aside from human encounters) tracking how fast in seconds they dispatch a WvW guard, a veteran hwarg or a camp, or which builds do the task spending the least amount of skills, so in case of a clash against roamers you have less tools on cooldown. Sometimes I use a giant from the Elonian Riverlands to check the damage of those builds since they have a lot of HP and interrupts so the differences in damage and resources spent over time are more evident there.

 

  Is not a surprise that power Revenant (mostly Herald but also core and Renegade) does well agains single targets you can burst fast, the difference blasting a WvW guard or a veteran hwarg using your classic power Herald, a celestial Herald and a condition Renegade is minimal to small, but when you meed to clean a camp becomes more evident: with power weapons and skills you’re splitting most of your damage and the elements of sustain (blocks, evades, movement skills and even cc) oftenly interrupts your damage, whereas condi builds AoE everytning to death and they can sustain while the condis ticks and reaply in burst.

 

Then this week I was busy testing against this chud:

 

Veteran Bristleback from the Desert Borderlands.

 

 

   Of couse is based on the creature from the HoT expansion, from maps as Auric Basin or Ember Bay, infamous about the amount of armor it has and the 7 seconds channeled ranged attack which auto tracks and and will be cast each 10 seconds is the defiant bar isn’t erased. Once is depleted, that chonky beast will remain unactive for 5-6 seconds but then will repeat the channel (at least one full time between the bar is reset and can be nocked out again). And yes, acts as a regular veteran BB, but the stats aren’t the same: larger damage (~600 x hit with no crit vs ~2500 armor), better armor and way, WAY more HP than a PvE one. His defiant bar is also immune to chill, blind and the brutality trait (hits under quickness that should remove stability make no dent on him -this should be solved in PvE, by the way- ).

 

So I tried to tackle him with a regular, full berserker, power Herald build which I use to roam and PvP. He broke me to pieces. Once, and another and another.Took me like 6 attempts to kill that monster, and the first two times I got it took me ~1’48” and I killed him from downed state. Finally I defeated him in 1’36” while standing. I’m sure is possible to do faster and better with a power build better played and made ad hoc to face its mechanics, but that probably would work worse for roaming PvP and is not the point. The point is: power Herald, 1’36” to kill a WvW veteran Brsitleback (and ~25% of success 😞 ).   

 

   Then I swaped to my full celestail celestial Herald roaming build. Fisrt attempt: beast killed in 33”, effortless. Then I swaped to my condition Renegade roaming build (trailblazer + viper). Fisrt attempt, beast killed in 26”; second in 25”, third in 24”. I’m sure that better players can do it even better, and of course those builds benefits from the change to torment which now is almost like burning vs static foes (a handicap for the Bristleback which won’t work the same vs functional players). But the point is the same: there’s a massive difference in damage from condition and or hybrid builds in the Renegade class compared to the power builds available, and that gap not existss vs multiple foes but also in single target stages, and encompasses from PvE to WvW and PvP.

 

   So Anet, please buff power Rev, preferably in a way that doesn’t break the Vindicator as op -since I’ll prefer to avoit it, anyway-.

 

   By the way, how much time takes you to nuke the BB?

[Dr Meta.3158]

That's the nature of power herald. Big burst, low dps. There are other classes that will offer what it seems you want which is low burst, high dps.

[Buran.3796]

33 minutes ago, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

That's the nature of power herald. Big burst, low dps. There are other classes that will offer what it seems you want which is low burst, high dps.

  How is power Herald big burst when took me 2,9 times less time to kill the same single target with a hybrid celestial Herald, and 4 times less time to do the same with a condi Renegade?  That maybe was the case before the large nerf damage circa 2019's Feb balance patch but not now. Is not only that the damage overall was cut across all weapons, but also that we lost lots of vulnerability procs and might stat generation. I mean: I'm full zerk there and my Unrelenting Assault is critting ~2700 at most.  I'll for sure will try again with Vindi next week, but don't expect it to be much better (and doesn't change that power core/Herald/Renegade damage is really poor).

[Dr Meta.3158]

Ah ok, I see. I'd ask some good power herald players how they do their burst rotation. That should fix the issue for you.

[Buran.3796]

13 minutes ago, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

Ah ok, I see. I'd ask some good power herald players how they do their burst rotation. That should fix the issue for you.

  Rotations do exist to maximize dps builds. I'm afraid that power Revs have been "baned" from instanced PvE content long time ago, since condi Renegade does way more damage, and power Reengade is demanded due provides alacrity to the group, not because is good at doing damage.

   But I would like to see any power Revenent build doing more significative damage to that creep. I'm sure my technique leaves to be desired...

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Using a random mob to test dps like this is probably not the best way, especially since it may be the case (i'm not 100% sure on this) that Bristlebacks have high toughness values (hence why power attacks may be doing less damage to it overall and condi seemingly more).  This alone is going to completely skew the results.

I also would question the efficacy of the build displayed here a bit.  You didn't show traits at all, but the build has very low might generation it seems which is extremely important on Power based builds.  Not using Shiro and Impossible Odds during the burst phases alongside Burst of Strength's 5s damage bonus is also going to cost you a lot of potential damage.  Not swapping to Shiro for extended periods or properly linking skills together or completely ignoring facet passives when they're available is also very costly in terms of dps.  If I was trying to kill this thing as quickly as possible I also would likely not swap back to staff after the initial burst phase and instead CC with Chaotic Release and Soft CC from chill/etc.

It's no surprise that Power Herald has low sustain dps on mobs comparatively, but it's not as low as this video is trying to say it is.  Also pve mob dps is only relevant to Camps/Towers/Keep lords anyway and there are WvW infusions that can help directly increase WvW dps against those enemies.  While those won't help you against "Veteran Bristleback" they'll certainly help you against actual important enemy lords throughout the mists. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Buran.3796]

^ Thanx for the input. The complete builds are linked in the description, but for the power Herald the traits selected were Devastation 333, Invocation 111 and Herald 322 (I also tried Devastation 331 but eneded ditching Brutality due has no effect in the defiant bar so came back to Dance of Death for sustain). 

   I didn't use Impossible Odds too much due with that build is crucial to save energy to break the defiant bar: Winds of Jade removes ~50% of the defiant bar and Chaotic Release another ~40% and sadly Chilling Isolation, Shackling Wave and Gaze of Darkness doesn't affect the defiant bar of this monster (using axe's Temporal Rift damages the blue bar, but that choice is inferior to off hand sword for a power build in most of roaming situations). So there''s a 10% defiant bar which is very hard to remove without swaping to the staff (Surge of the Mist removes the full bar disabling the foe).

   Disabling the Bristleback is crucial to solve the puzzle of beating it as fast as possible with a power build due the channel attack last so long and the damage is so big against a ~2500 armored character that a single channel would kill us (conversely a single 3 seconds Infuse Ligth tanking that attack will refill entirely our HP). So when the channeled attack starts (which last 7 seconds) we need to either inmediatly remove the defiance bar (which isn't inmediatly possible in tne recovery phase when the BB starts to attack again after being disabled) or use as many evades, blocks or Infuse Ligth cast as are available to survive. Of course the channel can be avoided using an obstacle (as a palm tree) to prevent the damage, but that takes more time and defeats the point of trying to beat the foe ASAP.

   And yes, the nature of the high armor value from the Bristleback goes against power builds, but that proves another point: the power Herald full berserker build stays at 2446 total armor value (and 19689 HP), whereas the trailblazer + viper condition Renegade has 2647  armor (almost 18k HP)  and the celestial hybrid damage Herald stays at 2974 armor (almost 27k HP), so the other builds benefit for having better armor  while also deal much more damage (which reduces the number of times they must remove the defiant bar or tank the channeled attack).

    The monster itself doesn't matter (has no WvW value, drops no significative loot, takes time to beat...) but proves how against a difficult foe with lots of HP and good armor (as facind multiple foes in a small n vs n skirmish) the Revenant power builds pale in damage and sustain compared againts the condition builds available inside the same class.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Buran.3796

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Split dmg mechanic has to go. It always felt wrong how rev is the only class that loses damage vs multiple targets. Been saying that for years at this point. Literally everyone else would rage until it changed but no revs for whatever reason.

 

Apart from that dps is whatever due to lots of nerfs that happened over time. And burst.. excuse me what burst? Our skills r slow af so unless u phase for quickness theres no burst whatsoever. Literally 0 dmg on cc skills including immobilize (what a briliant desing, who came up with it again?) doesnt help either with sword oh and ruined many other classes/weapons (rip warrior) as well. kitten balance what else to say

[otto.5684]

On 11/25/2021 at 6:40 PM, Buran.3796 said:

  Rotations do exist to maximize dps builds. I'm afraid that power Revs have been "baned" from instanced PvE content long time ago, since condi Renegade does way more damage, and power Reengade is demanded due provides alacrity to the group, not because is good at doing damage.

   But I would like to see any power Revenent build doing more significative damage to that creep. I'm sure my technique leaves to be desired...

Talking from PvE standpoint, herald needed fo be addressed before vindicator is released. Right now herald is not power dps, condi dps or even support. It is mediocre in every respect. Then we have Vindicator with some support skills, for no reason what so ever.

Rev , outside of renegade, is a kittening mess. It really needs dev time to sort this kitten out.

[Buran.3796]

^ I agree. Is what happens when the designer of the class is no longer in the company. Main point of Herald as support wasn't sharing boons (which tons of other classes can do) but having a 50% boon duration increase which was shaved to nothing when they decided that boon duration, insted of being buffed by runes or active skills, should be granted by a new, highly expensive gear as diviner, which  players had to grind again if they wanted to stay competitive in instanced PvE content. So now Herald is a support build that provides weaker boons than other specs, but still is weak at dps, specially at physical damage. 

[Telgum.6071]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:58 PM, Buran.3796 said:

This is exclusively related to WvW/PvP.

You know, I can understand people wanting Herald buffs for PvE (although it is not needed IMO), but WvW/PvP? Herald already deals from good to massive damage, be power with swords, be ranged with hammer or be condition with Mace/Axe (not as godlike as it used to be, but still very good).

I also agree that it isn't the most optimal for clearing camps, despite having a very good cleave through sword 2 and 4, Glint skills and hydromancy sigil, but that isn't s good metric to say that Herald needs damage buffs. Thief is also kitten at clearing camps and that doesn't mean it needs more damage. When it comes to WvW/PvP we are talking about fighting against other enemy players, not about camps or random mobs.

Revenant damage is just fine, if it has to be buffed or reworked, IMO the changes should go towards Ventari, Shiro's energy costs and weapon variety.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You know, I can understand people wanting Herald buffs for PvE (although it is not needed IMO), but WvW/PvP? Herald already deals from good to massive damage, be power with swords, be ranged with hammer or be condition with Mace/Axe

   Condi damage is either fine or op, not asking any buff to mace, but hammer and swords? Hammer deals less damage over time than staff, and is only picked in zerg vs zerg due CoR and Phase Smash ignore "projectile hate" skills. 

   Swords and staff don't cut across enemy players since damage was shaved from cc abilities and nowadays everyone in WvW is running trailblazers or celestial stats (because celestial obviously needed a buff, I mean: they removed it from PvP for balance reasons, cut 200 stat points from vit & armor from the crusader amulet but then gave to celestial  concentration and expertise for free, what could be wrong?), so they have high armor values while doing excellent burst of condition damage, as you can see in the video. By the way, did you look how the changes in torment affected mele builds (as power Herald, since we don't have ranged weapons feasible for combat vs humans)? Torment is almost like a second burn in terms of burst, since when you pressure a foe you're not moving.

   Nah, I'm not fine with the power Rev damage, they removed quickness from our arsenal and other things like damage at legend swap (which was fair because it was impredictable, but, you known, what about stealth? what about instant casting F abilities from Mesmers?  why not a call as Invoking Torment?) and even our highly telegraphed attacks now do 10 points of damage because (as sadly happened with Warrior's hammer) they had cc attached to it. Plus Surge of the Mist rooting us in first place, etc.

   ...And now they pretend us to play with a mele power build with a single dodge which costs 100 endurance? They must be kidding.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Buran.3796

[Telgum.6071]

18 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Condi damage is either fine or op, not asking any buff to mace, but hammer and swords? Hammer deals less damage over time than staff, and is only picked in zerg vs zerg due CoR and Phase Smash ignore "projectile hate" skills. 

   Swords and staff don't cut across enemy players since damage was shaved from cc abilities and nowadays everyone in WvW is running trailblazers or celestial stats (because celestial obviously needed a buff, I mean: they removed it from PvP for balance reasons, cut 200 stat points from vit & armor from the crusader amulet but then gave to celestial  concentration and expertise for free, what could be wrong?), so they have high armor values while doing excellent burst of condition damage, as you can see in the video. By the way, did you look how the changes in torment affected mele builds (as power Herald, since we don't have ranged weapons feasible for combat vs humans)? Torment is almost like a second burn in terms of burst, since when you pressure a foe you're not moving.

   Nah, I'm not fine with the power Rev damage, they removed quickness from our arsenal and other things like damage at legend swap (which was fair because it was impredictable, but, you known, what about stealth? what about instant casting F abilities from Mesmers?  why not a call as Invoking Torment?) and even our highly telegraphed attacks now do 10 points of damage because (as sadly happened with Warrior's hammer) they had cc attached to it. Plus Surge of the Mist rooting us in first place, etc.

   ...And now they pretend us to play with a mele power build with a single dodge which costs 100 endurance? They must be kidding.

Hammer dealing less damage over time doesn't mean it doesn't deal damage. We can go with hammer and staff to a zerg and see who deals more damage at the end of the fight.

I agree with you that Celestial and Trailblazer stats are a joke of bad taste, but those stats being OP doesn't mean Power Herald needs a buff, it means those stats need a nerf, just like what happened in PvP. IMO removing Toughness or Vitality from Trailblazer and undoing the last Cele buff would be a good call.

Vindicator style feels very unwelcoming, but the 100 dodge means nothing compared to the lack of CC. You will end dodging more often as Vindicator than Herald or Renegade thanks to the permanent Vigor + endurance recharge, but the big issue will be the lack of CC, not the endurance or the damage. In fact, in terms of power damage I think Vindicator is such a big new for us. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Buran.3796]

5 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

. You will end dodging more often as Vindicator than Herald or Renegade thanks to the permanent Vigor + endurance recharge,

   Of course not, non-Vindicator Rev has the same access to energy sigils and Unwavering Avoidance from Retribution as a Vindicator, and the only advantage they have which is gaining 50 endurance on F2 at 10 energy cost on a 20 s cd and Song of Arboreum granting vigor after our only dodge won't outpace the x2 endurance cost of each dodge compared to core Rev, Herald and Renegade cost.

   And this another reason why I think that power Rev needs a damage buff: sure they can tune the damage numbers for Vindicator to work in PvE (instanced PvP, leave any hope about OW):  Vindicator won't work vs humans with the new nerfs to dodge, and power Rev is both more frail than condi builds and also does way less damage.Guess how fun will be to figth vs condi celestial/trailblazer Thieves in WvW against their new ranged Specter spec full of teleports if they are already curbstomping power builds with their current mix of stealth + condi ranged burst.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You know, I can understand people wanting Herald buffs for PvE (although it is not needed IMO), but WvW/PvP? Herald already deals from good to massive damage, be power with swords, be ranged with hammer or be condition with Mace/Axe (not as godlike as it used to be, but still very good).

I also agree that it isn't the most optimal for clearing camps, despite having a very good cleave through sword 2 and 4, Glint skills and hydromancy sigil, but that isn't s good metric to say that Herald needs damage buffs. Thief is also kitten at clearing camps and that doesn't mean it needs more damage. When it comes to WvW/PvP we are talking about fighting against other enemy players, not about camps or random mobs.

Revenant damage is just fine, if it has to be buffed or reworked, IMO the changes should go towards Ventari, Shiro's energy costs and weapon variety.

 

This is basically how I feel as well.

 

In regards to the OP: Power Rev is fantastic in WvW (and seems competitive/meta in PvP but I don't play that so won't comment on that) across all specs: core, Herald, and Renegade. The only time I ever feel I am lacking damage is if I am fighting a tank build, but I think it is fair to say that nearly any power spec deals with the same issue. Swords are just fine the way they are. Hammer could use some love to make it more usable in different contexts, but it's not damage that it is lacking. Using examples like clearing camps or fighting a vet PvE mob is a bit disingenuous because that is vastly different from fighting players. You bring up fighting condi Thieves being tough to fight against, but I would argue that is more of a matchup issue than it is a sign that power Rev needs damage buffs. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Aeolus.3615]

23 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

This is basically how I feel as well.

 

In regards to the OP: Power Rev is fantastic in WvW (and seems competitive/meta in PvP but I don't play that so won't comment on that) across all specs: core, Herald, and Renegade. The only time I ever feel I am lacking damage is if I am fighting a tank build, but I think it is fair to say that nearly any power spec deals with the same issue. Swords are just fine the way they are. Hammer could use some love to make it more usable in different contexts, but it's not damage that it is lacking. Using examples like clearing camps or fighting a vet PvE mob is a bit disingenuous because that is vastly different from fighting players. You bring up fighting condi Thieves being tough to fight against, but I would argue that is more of a matchup issue than it is a sign that power Rev needs damage buffs. 

It could be better since its and elite spec and Glint is towards defending allies while providing damage IMO Rev needs(Note this is based on the build i play mostly in WVW):

RNG utility swap fixed (altou this happens on build swap mostly)

Sword 3 atacks everything even non damageable assets arround your target

Ventari needs to consume slighly less energy on some skills and tablet movement slightly better HealP coeficient %, Ventari elite skill neads to heal allies that removes conditions as well to be worth using towards its skill description, its a non damage able KD that burns all energy in 1st place.

Herald F2 isnt worthy nowadays(IMO) due the massive boon duration stats and possible stacks classes can reach alone, Shield 5 could have its root removed(or just make player move self slower while effect is happening) and its effect could be aoe 240 range arround the user since it would be a strong effect would have its range limited, possible maybe return the 10 ally trait back or make it work like affects 20 players in pve.

Towards damage rev has alot of might gameplay self gain being wathever spec stable build it is to buff damage directly Anet would have to remove some part of the might gains, and on devastation we have a trait to make might give more power.

 

 

Imo this changes could put herald on a good hybrid spot, since its a class that should avoid using minstrell stats like ic some players using in it.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 PM, Buran.3796 said:

This is exclusively related to WvW/PvP.

This is a joke right?

Also power renegade is arguably the best open world build, and alac renegade has very good damage for a support. In most groups power dps rev would work fine, people just want condi comps while stacking FB and scourge so they dont have to pay attention to anything.

[Buran.3796]

23 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

This is a joke right?

Also power renegade is arguably the best open world build, and alac renegade has very good damage for a support. 

   CONDI Renegade wreacks the Legendary Corrupted Facet in 4'35", good luck doing the same below 6' with any power build with this class. The same with every bounty, or world boss, or anything, really.

   But this is not about PvE,  this is about the crap damage power Revenant builds do at PvP/WvW, while also being usually very frail to condition damage.

[Zenith.7301]

If you noticed this build they virtually did nothing to substantially buff the Sword/Sword or Greatswor skill damage coefficients. Which is why power revenant builds are so abysmal in PvE

 

The other reason really is that Shiro and Archemorus are undertuned garbage in PvE as well. The Archemorus elite already channeled for like 3 seconds for a pitiful 14k damage crit at full 25 might with buffs on the golem. Most of Archemorus's skills are totally redundant in organized PvE with a boon support HB or renegade unless they pump up their damage.

 

They're all awful, boring repeats of the garbage reaper shouts that nobody uses in PvE, because scaling buff duration on boons that are already capped in group content, and in raids where most encounters are 90%+ of the time against a single target = useless utility skill.

 

Archemorus feels absolutely mediocre as a DPS legend for power specs, and Shiro was already mediocre to begin with.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Zaret.1450]

in my opinion, vindi is in need of more dmg, not a lot but yes a bit on both scavengers burst and the spear and taking the burning and torment out, vindi also needs a bit more cc, id say on gs3 making it a pull like raptor dismount skill

[Cykur.2908]

Bristlebacks have a lot of toughness, condi is going to do better on stuff that has high toughness values.

I never had a problem with the damage output from rev power swords, I love swords.  When I test them against golems, the damage is very high and almost as good as my condi build damage, but I don't have to wait for it to ramp up.  I mostly play hybrid renegade these days with a mix of viper's and celestial with torment runes for added survivability.   The only reason I moved away from swords was because in tough fights I prefer the versatility and AoE of condi builds.  It is a lot easier to die with swords if you get knocked down and you don't have the energy to Riposte, or cooldown to legend swap.  Power builds might need some love in terms of overall competitiveness, but I don't think the problem is swords damage potential.

[Buran.3796]

7 minutes ago, Cykur.2908 said:

Bristlebacks have a lot of toughness, condi is going to do better on stuff that has high toughness values.

I never had a problem with the damage output from rev power swords, I love swords.  When I test them against golems, the damage is very high and almost as good as my condi build damage, but I don't have to wait for it to ramp up.  I mostly play hybrid renegade these days with a mix of viper's and celestial with torment runes for added survivability. 

   With a power build if you catch an enemy player without stunbreak or "panic button" available you can burst them in seconds...  with a condi build if you cath an enemy foe without cleanses it will die equaly in seconds. The difference as you say is that to do that as a power Rev I need to run with 16K HP and ~2300 armor and figth in mele because our ranged power weapons are terrible (outside underwater), whereas as a condi Rev I can do the same while having 25K+ HP and over 3K armor, and figthing at range if I please. So power builds should do more damage.

 

   That's in PvP/WvW, in PvE power builds works are beyond any hope to reach condi numbers due how condi ignores armor and keeps doing damage while you dodge, block, etc. whereas in  power most of defensive actions stop entirely your own damage.

[Cykur.2908]

OK, I see your point a bit better.  I find my power builds killed faster if something could be killed faster, but yes, I switched to hybrid condi for the reasons you mentioned, I killed almost as fast and I had more defense, more sustain, and more range options.  I still don't think more damage on power swords is the answer, other players would die almost instantly if you phase into them with Shiro, but I agree they feel a bit lacking compared to the much more survivable gameplay of condi.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

9 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

in my opinion, vindi is in need of more dmg, not a lot but yes a bit on both scavengers burst and the spear and taking the burning and torment out, vindi also needs a bit more cc, id say on gs3 making it a pull like raptor dismount skill

The burning and torment does practically nothing on a power build and doesn’t need to be removed in order to buff the power damage of the skills.  These conditions are added to the skills to help enable hybrid builds and also add cover conditions for your soft CCs (which IS useful for a power build in wvw/pvp).  Having the conditions on the skills provides extra build opportunities for wvw/pvp instead of locking vindicator entirely into power which is a good thing. 
 

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 11/30/2021 at 6:48 PM, Buran.3796 said:

  this is about the crap damage power Revenant builds do at PvP/WvW

So this isnt a joke. You do realize power herald has been meta in pvp for like... at least 4 years. And power renegade has been meta for like 2 years? And hammer rev has been meta in wvw for just as long, if not longer? That power rev has been one of the strongest roamers in the history of the game because of their burst dps?