Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Zraurum.8493]

Dear arena and players, our favorite class is discriminated against compared to other classes, I would like the arena not to return the second dodge to the mirage. And I would like to bring this problem to the surface and not hush it up. Maybe if a lot of people sign this request to ArenaNet, then maybe they will hear us and return the second Dodge to our beloved mirage!

 

https://chng.it/ccnLZTxLqf

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Zraurum.8493
update link

[Uvirith.9573]

Looking at the new rev spec which also has a single dodge, I doubt mirage will ever get reverted. 

[Levetty.1279]

Imagine thinking Anet will ever treat Mesmer as well as the other specs. 🤣

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Uvirith.9573 said:

Looking at the new rev spec which also has a single dodge, I doubt mirage will ever get reverted. 

Yeah, but that rev elite was balanced from the start with 1 dodge in mind, so they have enough to compensate for it, and with all the regen they get, they actually get more dodges than daredevil, and also dodges for WAY longer, like, i can't even comprehend how that's a comparison or a reason to not return the dodge to Mirage.

 

Mirage wasn't balanced with one dodge in mind, it was balanced with two, and then they ripped the one dodge out of lazy balancing. It was jank then and it is janky now.

[Uvirith.9573]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mirage wasn't balanced with one dodge in mind, it was balanced with two, and then they ripped the one dodge out of lazy balancing. It was jank then and it is janky now.

I agree, but I doubt anet does. Mirage took huge hits at its functionalities. Even disregarding balance it made the spec very boring to play. We can only wish that some day it will get a proper rework.

[Mell.4873]

I am Mesmer main, (not pvp) but i will say mirage is still very strong in pvp due to the burst. The extra dodge let you escape so much damage while still attacking so that is why it was broken.

If it was to be returned then you would have to remove any attack animations during the dodge(like every other dodge) which would make it worse.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

47 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I am Mesmer main, (not pvp) but i will say mirage is still very strong in pvp due to the burst. The extra dodge let you escape so much damage while still attacking so that is why it was broken.

If it was to be returned then you would have to remove any attack animations during the dodge(like every other dodge) which would make it worse.

So again another clear example of making comments where you are no expert. You clearly said you are a Mesmer main not for PvP but why are you trying to make comments regarding PvP?

The extra dodge isn't to mitigate damage but its also a core function of Mesmer that relates to traits that require dodging. This goes for clone generate, damage output, condi cleanse, and more. 

The audacity of calling yourself a Mesmer main while not understanding how important dodge is overall to Mesmers especially Mirage is sickening.

Mesmer as a whole was made in conjunction with dodging, I dare say dodge affects Mesmers more then any other class in the game.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Simonoly.4352]

It's definitely something that should be added back to Mirage in WvW. It's actually a bit weird that Anet decided to nerf it in WvW - a game mode where Mesmer has no real impact on the minutiae of the large scale battles that actually decide the outcome of a matchup. It's not even a very good solo or group roamer anymore as it's very much outcompeted by Rev, Thief and Ranger. Condi Mirage can still be effective in certain scenarios, but it's also quite easy to ignore since the damage output is rather piddly outside of duels. 

Can't really comment on sPvP as I'm not playing the game mode enough.

[Mell.4873]

23 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So again another clear example of making comments where you are no expert. You clearly said you are a Mesmer main not for PvP but why are you trying to make comments regarding PvP?

The extra dodge isn't to mitigate damage but its also a core function of Mesmer that relates to traits that require dodging. This goes for clone generate, damage output, condi cleanse, and more. 

The audacity of calling yourself a Mesmer main while not understanding how important dodge is overall to Mesmers especially Mirage is sickening.

Mesmer as a whole was made in conjunction with dodging, I dare say dodge affects Mesmers more then any other class in the game.

When i do pvp with the Mirage i only ever used the dodge to avoid damage it was wasted on trying to obtain more dps. 2 condition cleanse is about the only other use but that is avoiding damage again.

The main reason i don't pvp with the Mesmer is it like the theif, you cant hold points, soak damage or really anything needed for conquest.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Mell.4873 said:

When i do pvp with the Mesmer i only ever used the dodge to avoid damage it was wasted trying to obtain more dps. 2 condition cleanse is about the only other use but that is avoiding damage again.

The topic here is Mirage having one dodge not Mesmer, Mirage especially benefits more on dodges because the kit was centralized on dodging. Mesmer on the other hand uses dodges more defensively because it doesn't have a mechanic called ambush tied to it's dodges. Any Mesmer mains can tell the difference on how dodges work on Mesmer aside from Mirage.

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

The topic here is Mirage having one dodge not Mesmer, Mirage especially benefits more on dodges because the kit was centralized on dodging. Mesmer on the other hand uses dodges more defensively because it doesn't have a mechanic called ambush tied to it's dodges. Any Mesmer mains can tell the difference on how dodges work on Mesmer aside from Mirage.

Sorry i meant mirage

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Sorry i meant mirage

And again Mirage has AMBUSH which is meant to use dodges more offensively rather then defensively. This is a huge reason why the one dodge nerf without compensation was dumb. You look at Vindicator, the whole spec is balanced and made with the mindset of one dodge.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mirage wasn't balanced with one dodge in mind, it was balanced with two

Clearly it wasn't. Being able to dodge while stomping, ressing, immobed etc. just proved way to strong with two dodges, and Anet thankfully is pretty aware of how broken the Mirage Cloak mechanic is. 

 

If you want two Dodges back for Mirage, sure, but it certainly will have to come at the cost of Mirage Cloak.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Clearly it wasn't. Being able to dodge while stomping, ressing, immobed etc. just proved way to strong with two dodges, and Anet thankfully is pretty aware of how broken the Mirage Cloak mechanic is. 

 

If you want two Dodges back for Mirage, sure, but it certainly will have to come at the cost of Mirage Cloak.

Being able to stomp while dodging is a nice niche but mesmers can just invul stomp anyways or perhaps stealth stomp, this is only prevalent in sPvP but most of the time you don't want to stomp if you are able to so it delay's their spawn so long as they aren't at the capture point. Perhaps what you are saying is mesmers should also lose distortion as well because its too strong of a mechanic.

It was never about just giving 2 dodges back, its nerfing everything because 2 dodges was too strong then removing the dodge afterwards without buffing back all the things got nerfed because of 2 dodge. 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Asum.4960]

19 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Being able to stomp while dodging is a nice niche but mesmers can just invul stomp anyways or perhaps stealth stomp, this is only prevalent in sPvP but most of the time you don't want to stomp if you are able to so it delay's their spawn so long as they aren't at the capture point. Perhaps what you are saying is mesmers should also lose distortion as well because its too strong of a mechanic.

It was never about just giving 2 dodges back, its nerfing everything because 2 dodges was too strong then removing the dodge afterwards without buffing back all the things got nerfed because of 2 dodge. 

 

Being the only spec than can dodge while CC'ed, stomping, reviving, attacking and so on is a broken mechanic (going far beyond uncounterable stomps, the power of which you are drastically downplaying here), that these other mechanics already exist on the spec, compounding with the OP'ness off Mirage Cloak, also isn't an argument for two dodges back on top of that, but further against it.

 

There is no need to put words into my mouth of what I "perhaps am saying", when clearly I'm not.

 

[Zenith.7301]

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Clearly it wasn't. Being able to dodge while stomping, ressing, immobed etc. just proved way to strong with two dodges, and Anet thankfully is pretty aware of how broken the Mirage Cloak mechanic is. 

 

If you want two Dodges back for Mirage, sure, but it certainly will have to come at the cost of Mirage Cloak.

lol are you serious? Thief was getting easy stomps through shadowstep with no counterplay way before mirage even existed. Stealth rezzing is the most powerful rezzing in the game.

[Salt Mode.3780]

24 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Being the only spec than can dodge while CC'ed, stomping, reviving, attacking and so on is a broken mechanic (going far beyond uncounterable stomps, the power of which you are drastically downplaying here), that these other mechanics already exist on the spec, compounding with the OP'ness off Mirage Cloak, also isn't an argument for two dodges back on top of that, but further against it.

 

There is no need to put words into my mouth of what I "perhaps am saying", when clearly I'm not.

 

Yes at the same time its the only dodge that is stationary, the point to make isn't about how powerful the dodge is the argument is that the class as a whole was made to have 2 dodges which is irrelevant to how powerful the dodge is. Fine if they remove a dodge then they should compensate for having only 1 dodge on a 8 second fixed regen rate.

When people compare it to vindicator which is again 1 dodge it is on the premise that the spec as a whole was made for the one dodge. 

Please understand the forum topic or perhaps you can create a thread why Mirage cloak is too strong and how it needs to get nerfed. If you argument is because Mirage can stomp in while dodging then its a very weak one. The dodging in CC is strong but what else would compensate a stationary dodge? Again all blind complaints with nothing to back up.

I wouldn't oppose to even reducing the dodge even lower from .75 to .5 seconds. So a normal dodge will have a 1.5 sec of evasion while Mirage with cloak will be at 1 second that is a .5 second loss. Removing a whole dodge when the spec was not made for it is no excuse simple as that.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Clearly it wasn't. Being able to dodge while stomping, ressing, immobed etc. just proved way to strong with two dodges, and Anet thankfully is pretty aware of how broken the Mirage Cloak mechanic is. 

 

If you want two Dodges back for Mirage, sure, but it certainly will have to come at the cost of Mirage Cloak.

Good solution IMO ... revert to two dodges and put a reasonable ICD on the offensive portion of Mirage Cloak, treating it like any other offensive skill. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Veprovina.4876]

4 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Clearly it wasn't. Being able to dodge while stomping, ressing, immobed etc. just proved way to strong with two dodges, and Anet thankfully is pretty aware of how broken the Mirage Cloak mechanic is. 

 

If you want two Dodges back for Mirage, sure, but it certainly will have to come at the cost of Mirage Cloak.

No it wasn't too strong, it was on par with other similarly effective classes. Why don't they remove Necro shroud from WvW then? It's also something other classes don't have and it's stronger than just one health bar?

 

The only reason Mirage lost a dodge was because of all the whiners in PvP and WvW forums who couldn't beat a mirage and wanted to see it fail so they spammed Anet with "nerf Mirage" until Anet did the dumbest thing to "balance" what never needed balance in the first place.

 

I can't kill a thief.

I don't think i ever killed one, i just don't know how to play against one, so i just usually scare them with "some" damage, and go away while they stealth and heal up.

 

But i'm not spamming thief, PvP and WvW forums to nerf thief like everyone and their mother did for Mesmer and still has the audacity to do today on occasion after all the nerfs.

 

Mirage was strong, but Scourge, Dragonhunter and Spellbreaker were stronger (at the time Mirage had 2 dodges).

But Mirage was "annoying". That's the only difference.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

And again Mirage has AMBUSH which is meant to use dodges more offensively rather then defensively. This is a huge reason why the one dodge nerf without compensation was dumb. You look at Vindicator, the whole spec is balanced and made with the mindset of one dodge.

You can still do all that and at regular intervals if you want, you just cant dodge twice in a row to survive.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Being able to stomp while dodging is a nice niche but mesmers can just invul stomp anyways or perhaps stealth stomp, this is only prevalent in sPvP but most of the time you don't want to stomp if you are able to so it delay's their spawn so long as they aren't at the capture point. Perhaps what you are saying is mesmers should also lose distortion as well because its too strong of a mechanic.

It was never about just giving 2 dodges back, its nerfing everything because 2 dodges was too strong then removing the dodge afterwards without buffing back all the things got nerfed because of 2 dodge. 

 

Invulnerability's are on long cooldowns and in stealth you can still be attacked or stunned.

I take no pleasure in agreeing with the one dodge except for when i play against that same mirage. The burst is crazy, its just not for me in pvp. I only ever played the old mirage with 2 dodges since i could face roll damage.

[Asum.4960]

17 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes at the same time its the only dodge that is stationary, the point to make isn't about how powerful the dodge is the argument is that the class as a whole was made to have 2 dodges which is irrelevant to how powerful the dodge is. Fine if they remove a dodge then they should compensate for having only 1 dodge on a 8 second fixed regen rate.

When people compare it to vindicator which is again 1 dodge it is on the premise that the spec as a whole was made for the one dodge. 

Please understand the forum topic or perhaps you can create a thread why Mirage cloak is too strong and how it needs to get nerfed. If you argument is because Mirage can stomp in while dodging then its a very weak one. The dodging in CC is strong but what else would compensate a stationary dodge? Again all blind complaints with nothing to back up.

I wouldn't oppose to even reducing the dodge even lower from .75 to .5 seconds. So a normal dodge will have a 1.5 sec of evasion while Mirage with cloak will be at 1 second that is a .5 second loss. Removing a whole dodge when the spec was not made for it is no excuse simple as that.

 

How exactly is Mirage Cloak "stationary"? You can freely move while dodging with Mirage Cloak (with a 66% movespeed increase from Speed of Sand), with the added benefit of not having to move while dodging, enabling all those other game mechanic circumventing benefits. 

 

16 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

No it wasn't too strong, it was on par with other similarly effective classes. Why don't they remove Necro shroud from WvW then? It's also something other classes don't have and it's stronger than just one health bar?

 

The only reason Mirage lost a dodge was because of all the whiners in PvP and WvW forums who couldn't beat a mirage and wanted to see it fail so they spammed Anet with "nerf Mirage" until Anet did the dumbest thing to "balance" what never needed balance in the first place.

 

Mirage was strong, but Scourge, Dragonhunter and Spellbreaker were stronger (at the time Mirage had 2 dodges).

But Mirage was "annoying". That's the only difference.

 

You can list all unique profession mechanics you want, that's not going to change how the unique properties of Mirage Cloak (being invulnerable while being able to attack, stomp, ress, point capture, ignore CC and with that punish skillfull play etc.) was an incredibly problematic thing to add to the game which inherently breaks some mechanical design rules of GW2, all in form of a Minor Trait spec feature that previously had zero tradeoff. 

 

And let's not ignore how Mirages were literally casually winning 1v4's at their peak in Plat 2+, until for 3+ seasons straight I had 3+ mirages every match at that time, which got so ridiculous that I started to track match outcomes during the 2 dodge CI Mirage days, and the team with the most Mirages turned out to be a 95% accurate win prediction for my well over 100 P2-3 games over those months leading up to it's nerfs. 

That build was imo the most damaging thing to the PvP scene since Bunker Chrono.

 

Anyway, since balance Devs like CMC are on record on stream as recent as this month talking about how insanely broken Mirage Cloak is and what a bad idea it was to add to the game, it's not like you have much of an argument here, least of all to have with me.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

You can list all unique profession mechanics you want, that's not going to change how the unique properties of Mirage Cloak (being invulnerable while being able to attack, stomp, ress, point capture, ignore CC and with that punish skillfull play etc.) was an incredibly problematic thing to add to the game which inherently breaks some mechanical design rules of GW2, all in form of a Minor Trait spec feature that previously had zero tradeoff. 

You can also try to ignore the fact that all the unique elite profession mechanics are strictly more powerful than the base ones. Mirage cloak isn't the only one, yet somehow it's the only one that needs a tradeoff while everyone else got a strict upgrade. 

 

Quote

And let's not ignore how Mirages were literally casually winning 1v4's at their peak in Plat 2+, until for 3+ seasons straight I had 3+ mirages every match at that time, which got so ridiculous that I started to track match outcomes during the 2 dodge CI Mirage days, and the team with the most Mirages turned out to be a 95% accurate win prediction for my well over 100 P2-3 games over those months leading up to it's nerfs. 

That build was imo the most damaging thing to the PvP scene since Bunker Chrono.

Yeah, good job using top 1% players to illustrate how "OP" something is. It's supposed to be powerful in capable hands. Go watch scourge PvP footage of someone just using a mouse and never dying. That's not OP at all. And that's in a noob's hands. 

I never managed to 1v4 anyone. Neither have a lot of people. 

If you're going to illustrate how "op" something is, don't use top stats, most of us are at the average level, and here, Mirage never felt powerful. It felt "ok" compared to others and playable.

Quote

Anyway, since balance Devs like CMC are on record on stream as recent as this month talking about how insanely broken Mirage Cloak is and what a bad idea it was to add to the game, it's not like you have much of an argument here, least of all to have with me.

Nice misdirect, but my argument was never what you claim it to be. I just said we need 2 dodges back because it's one of the core features of the game, every AOE, every encounter, every skill timing is made with 2 in mind (and Vindicator gets around that in other ways before you try to use it as an argument), so ripping 1 dodge as a "balance move" was the dumbest idea Anet had for the game and gutted the class for no reason. 

And with all the nerfs mesmers in general recieved since then, losing a dodge hurts even more. Bringing it back has nothing to do with it being a Mirage cloak, but even with that "argument", 2 cloaks now would actually be balanced. 

 

But anway. I've seen that the contrarians have entered the thread, and this always starts going in circles because no matter what i say, the professional contrarians will always have to argue against it. 

 

And since i'm not into the whole circle arguing, i'm out.

Peace.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Veprovina.4876

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Nice misdirect, but my argument was never what you claim it to be. I just said we need 2 dodges back because it's one of the core features of the game, every AOE, every encounter, every skill timing is made with 2 in mind (and Vindicator gets around that in other ways before you try to use it as an argument), so ripping 1 dodge as a "balance move" was the dumbest idea Anet had for the game and gutted the class for no reason. 

And with all the nerfs mesmers in general recieved since then, losing a dodge hurts even more. Bringing it back has nothing to do with it being a Mirage cloak, but even with that "argument", 2 cloaks now would actually be balanced. 

 

But anway. I've seen that the contrarians have entered the thread, and this always starts going in circles because no matter what i say, the professional contrarians will always have to argue against it. 

 

And since i'm not into the whole circle arguing, i'm out.

Peace.

Dodge is a core feature of the game (as is not being able to dodge while CC'ed btw), yes, having two dodges isn't - as Mirage, Daredevil and Vindicator, so far, show. 

I can't atm recall a single AoE or encounter that's specifically designed with double dodging in mind, besides, Mirage still having 2 dodges for PvE Encounters and an overwhelming array of options to get around that limitation even if that were the case. 

In which ways does the Vindicator Kit get around that single Dodge limitation more than the Mirage Kit with Distort, Axes of Symmetry, Sand Through Glass, Illusionary Ambush, Vigor and plentiful Mirage Mirror's granting essentially 7+ extra Evades to the Kit (+ Blinks, Detargets, Stealth, Clone Spam and Dodge)? 

Weaver, Mirage, Daredevil and Soulbeast are the specs with the most evades ingame, out of those, counting all sources of Mirage Cloak and Distort, (single dodge) Mirage is the one able to have the single most Evades out of all specs in the game on a skillbar at once.

Also the Spec was hardly gutted considering a guy managed to get Legend on what, 5? alt account's in one season playing Mirage just a while ago. 

 

I'm not sure what you are intending to achieve with the label of contrarian, but according to it's definition of rejecting or opposing popular opinion and current practice, wouldn't that make you the one falling under that label? 

In which case, 

Quote

this always starts going in circles because no matter what i say, the professional contrarians will always have to argue against it. 

Likewise.

Good luck though, I do hope Anet finds a (non game breaking) way to placate yours and other's gripes with the single Dodge, I get that it feels limiting and annoying - even if it's justified for balance reasons.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

IPeople will tell the most absurd kitten to sell you something. 

Mirage was already one of the professions with the least amount of dodges before they cut out one dodge.

All vigor was nerfed into absurd levels, a single vigor trait from one of the other professions gets you the same vigor than mirage with three vigor traits. 

To add to that evade was reduce to match a regular dodge and the mobility of dodge was reduce to lower than a regular dodge and let's not even talk if you've impairing conditions on you. 

One dodge makes you spam on full endurance instead of playing smart. 

So please put the guitar back in the bag and go play your kitten music somewhere else.