Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

You are very underestimating FH's functionality compared to previously nerfed "exceptional cases" ...

That point is exactly the reasoning Anet could nerf it because I think FH is great, especially with it's associated traits in Discipline.

If Anet has shown to nerf less functional 'exceptional cases', then FH is even MORE a candidate for getting nerfed because if I think FH is great and your telling me I'm actually underestimating it's greatness ... you must be implying that FH is so OP for warrior, it should be baseline. That's ridiculous. That's NOT what happens to things that are OP'ed ... and we see that. We have evidence of it. We have RELEVANT examples of how OP things are addressed in this game. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That point is exactly the reasoning Anet could nerf it because I think FH is great, especially with it's associated traits in Discipline.

If Anet has shown to nerf less functional 'exceptional cases', then FH is even MORE a candidate for getting nerfed because if I think FH is great and your telling me I'm actually underestimating it's greatness ... you must be implying that FH is so OP for warrior, it should be baseline. That's ridiculous. That's NOT what happens to things that are OP'ed ... and we see that. We have evidence of it. We have RELEVANT examples of how OP things are addressed in this game. 

I think you are confused. FH is strong trait for sure, but it is different compared to VP in terms of how it impacts gameplay. If you think about this as "if FH changes warrior much more than VP changes necro, then FH is much more OP", then of course you will come to conclusion that FH is OP. However, you could do this with literally anything and suddenly the game balance wouldn't make sense at all.  That is exactly why you have to treat FH differently, aka special case. Also, what other examples of Anet nerfing things that people wanted as baseline are there to support your argument, except VP nerf?

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

I think you are confused. FH is strong trait for sure, but it is different compared to VP in terms of how it impacts gameplay. If you think about this as "if FH changes warrior much more than VP changes necro, then FH is much more OP", then of course you will come to conclusion that FH is OP. However, you could do this with literally anything and suddenly the game balance wouldn't make sense at all.  That is exactly why you have to treat FH differently, aka special case. Also, what other examples of Anet nerfing things that people wanted as baseline are there to support your argument, except VP nerf?

Sure, it's different ... but that doesn't exclude FH for being considered for a nerf based on the arguments you and other people are giving to make it baseline. Again, you might think it deserves some special status and consideration. You don't seem to understand that Anet doesn't have to consider what players think when they change the game ... and that's why VP is a good example here ... because they didn't. They did the exact OPPOSITE of what players were wanting.  

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, it's different ... but that doesn't exclude it for being considered for a nerf based on the arguments you and other people are giving to make it baseline. 

 

By underestimating FH's functionality, I meant that you probably don't realize the fallout of FH nerf on all Discipline builds which work properly and are not even overtuned compared to other professions. Nerfing such working system just for sake of "not having to be forced to pick Fast Hands traitline" (similarly to VP) makes absolutely no sense.

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

 

By underestimating FH's functionality, I meant that you probably don't realize the fallout of FH nerf on all Discipline builds which work properly and are not even overtuned compared to other professions. Nerfing such working system just for sake of "not having to be forced to pick Fast Hands traitline" (similarly to VP) makes absolutely no sense.

Well, you would 'probably' be absolutely wrong. Just because I recognize that the arguments you and others are presenting could result in an FH nerf doesn't mean I don't understand how good FH is (why do you think I'm so invested in this discussion in the first place?).

I'm just realistic ... because I know Anet nerfs things on have-not classes that are really good things for those classes. You seem to want to believe that doesn't happen, or the label of 'special case' for warrior would prevent that ... it wouldn't as the game history shows.

Again, what do you think is more important to Anet for how the game works? A trait system that has integrity or warrior 'being better'? Based on the experience in the game, that trait system seems way more important than any specific classes performance. I mean, just ask yourself ... do we have good warrior performance or a trait system with integrity? Just look at how the game works ... that will tell you what is important to Anet. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

35 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, you would 'probably' be absolutely wrong. Just because I recognize that the arguments you and others are presenting could result in an FH nerf doesn't mean I don't understand how good FH is (why do you think I'm so invested in this discussion in the first place?).

I'm just realistic ... because I know Anet nerfs things on have-not classes that are really good things for those classes. You seem to want to believe that doesn't happen, or the label of 'special case' for warrior would prevent that ... it wouldn't as the game history shows.

Again, what do you think is more important to Anet for how the game works? A trait system that has integrity or warrior 'being better'? Based on the experience in the game, that trait system seems way more important than any specific classes performance. I mean, just ask yourself ... do we have good warrior performance or a trait system with integrity? Just look at how the game works ... that will tell you what is important to Anet. 

Ok so what about traits where Anet broke this trait system with integrity and made them baseline? Why did they broke it back then and why couldn't they do it again?

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Ok so what about traits where Anet broke this trait system with integrity and made them baseline? Why did they broke it back then and why couldn't they do it again?

I would say THOSE are the exceptions!!!

I'm not saying they couldn't do it again. I'm saying that the arguments you and others are making could result in an FH nerf. I'm not the one in denial here ... I'm not fooling myself with this "Warrior is a special case" nonsense because we have 9 years of game history that shows there isn't any thing special going on here. Personally, I think you are putting FH and the whole Discipline traitline at massive risk with all the arguments people are making for this FH baseline campaign. Maybe you think it's a good idea to bet against Anet's game design philosophies to get things you want ... I do not. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I would say THOSE are the exceptions!!!

I'm not saying they couldn't do it again. I'm saying that the arguments you and others are making could result in an FH nerf. I'm not the one in denial here ... I'm not fooling myself with this "Warrior is a special case" nonsense because we have 9 years of game history that shows there isn't any thing special going on here. Personally, I think you are putting FH and the whole Discipline traitline at massive risk with all the arguments people are making for this FH baseline campaign. Maybe you think it's a good idea to bet against Anet's game design philosophies to get things you want ... I do not. 

Eh, should we pretend that Fast Hand doesn't massively alter warrior's gameplay? I believe that Anet is aware of how potent FH is. We are simply vocal about the fact that it would be beneficial for all warrior builds. The aim of this change is to improve warrior because warrior needs improvements. The trait is good candidate to become baseline because of its effect, how it alters the gameplay which naturally helps less used builds to be more useful.

I mean, sure, Anet can do anything (whether it's reasonable or complete nonsense) but I believe they are aware that FH plays big role in many builds that rely on 5sec cd swapping.

[Obtena.7952]

52 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Eh, should we pretend that Fast Hand doesn't massively alter warrior's gameplay?

Except no one is doing that. I mean, you keep accusing me of this ... but it's not true. I KNOW EXACTLY how massively FH impacts warrior's gameplay. That's why I DO see the arguments people are presenting can be viewed as reasons to nerf it. That's why it also astounds me that you and others don't. 

Again do not think that because Warrior is a 'special case' as a have-not class that Anet won't nerf something on it just because of how 'massively altering' that something might be to warrior's gameplay. It's happened before on other classes. That special case argument will not prevent Anet from considering nerfing FH based on the points you and other people are making here. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except no one is doing that. I mean, you keep accusing me of this ... but it's not true. I KNOW EXACTLY how massively FH impacts warrior's gameplay. That's why I DO see the arguments people are presenting can be viewed as reasons to nerf it. 

Again do not think that because Warrior is a 'special case' as a have-not class that Anet won't nerf something on it just because of how 'massively altering' it is to warrior's gameplay. It's happened before on other classes. That special case argument will not prevent Anet from considering nerfing FH based on the points you and other people are making here. 

It doesn't matter what Arenanet might or might not do, they can turn of the servers if they want to, that is on them. If they are delusional that making weapon swap on warrior 10 seconds is good idea, more power to them, it is their creation but they have been wrong on many accounts. If they kitten up and the game is not fun people will leave, it is simple.  
We are here to suggest change that might help the situation. We are here to complain about stuff that do not work.]

 

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

It doesn't matter what Arenanet might or might not do, they can turn of the servers if they want to, that is on them. If they are delusional that making weapon swap on warrior 10 seconds is good idea, more power to them, it is their creation but they have been wrong on many accounts. If they kitten up and the game is not fun people will leave, it is simple.  
We are here to suggest change that might help the situation. We are here to complain about stuff that do not work.]

 

So discussing the points people are making might result in Anet nerfing it ... has nothing to do with what Anet will do? I'm pretty sure it does. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's 100% related to what Anet may do. 

Sure, suggest changes that help the situation. Just don't pretend that the points people are making to 'help' FH being baseline are also not the same points people could use to 'help' result in a FH nerf. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

So discussing the points people are making might result in FH nerfing it ... has nothing to do with what Anet will or won't do? I'm pretty sure it does. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's 100% related to what Anet may do. 

That is the paranoia speaking, go out of the covid isolation grab some fresh air.

People in Anet are not malicious, they might make mistakes but I'm pretty sure they won't be kicking people when they are on the ground. Considering that FS is not even what makes warrior viable in group setting (WoD in wvw, banners in PVE), I do not think they will nerf it making warrior use even less button presses then right now.  

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

People in Anet are not malicious, they might make mistakes but I'm pretty sure they won't be kicking people when they are on the ground. Considering that FS is not even what makes warrior viable in group setting (WoD in wvw, banners in PVE), I do not think they will nerf it making warrior use even less button presses then right now.  

I'm not accusing Anet of being malicious but if you actually think that, you aren't paying attention to the game history. Anet HAS in the past nerfed things on have-not classes because they don't like how they work. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not accusing Anet of being malicious but if you actually think that, you aren't paying attention to the game history. Anet HAS in the past nerfed things on have-not classes because they don't like how they work. 

It also has buffed the kitten out of other things. What is your point? The sky isn't falling.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

It also has buffed the kitten out of other things. What is your point?

My point is simple .. and I will repeat it until you stop asking me what it is. The arguments people are presenting could be used to make FH baseline could also be used to nerf FH. That's not a 'sky is falling' thing ... that's real. It's happened in the past, in similar scenarios with the same arguments being made by other people here. 

I'm not the one looking for loopholes to convince myself warrior is a 'special case' nor am I the one ignoring the fact that Anet has nerfed have-not classes in the past somehow doesn't apply here. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

My point is simple ... and I don't get why I have to keep repeating it. The arguments people are presenting could be used to nerf FH. 

If it makes warrior better why the kitten not. I think you don't get that people understand what you are saying, but your spectrum is not understanding that people do not think Arenanet is so inept as to nerf basic functionality that has worked since the game started. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

If it makes warrior better why the kitten not.

There are lots of things that could make warrior better that aren't happening ... so indeed why not? Obviously there are reasons. Do I know what they are? No, but if they didn't exist, we wouldn't be talking about this. 

And yes, I understand people are unrealistically thinking Anet won't nerf FH because of the reasons presented for making it baseline. It's happened in the past. There isn't a reason it can't happen again. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There are lots of things that could make warrior better that aren't happening ... so indeed why not? Obviously there are reasons. 

And yes, I understand people are unrealistically thinking Anet won't nerf FH because of the reasons presented for making it baseline. It's happened in the past. There isn't a reason it can't happen again. 

https://imgur.com/mCmfwMj

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My point is simple .. and I will repeat it until you stop asking me what it is. The arguments people are presenting could be used to make FH baseline could also be used to nerf FH. That's not a 'sky is falling' thing ... that's real. It's happened in the past, in similar scenarios with the same arguments being made by other people here. 

I'm not the one looking for loopholes to convince myself warrior is a 'special case' nor am I the one ignoring the fact that Anet has nerfed have-not classes in the past somehow doesn't apply here. 

What you are engaging in is a false equivalence mate. Please stop. It stopped being constructive a long time ago.

[Obtena.7952]

32 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What you are engaging in is a false equivalence mate. 

The arguments being made are just as relevant to nerf FH as people think they are relevant to make FH baseline. The VP example is simply supporting that observation as more than just speculation. That's not a 'false equivalence' at all. It's recognizing a pattern of behaviour and seeing how it applies to the situation here. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The arguments being made are just as relevant to nerf FH as people think they are relevant to make FH baseline. The VP example is simply supporting that observation as more than just speculation. That's not a 'false equivalence' at all. It's recognizing a pattern of behaviour and seeing how it applies to the situation here. 

False. Equivalence. Please. Stop. Let it drop.

[Obtena.7952]

 

26 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

False. Equivalence. 

I will not allow people to misunderstand what I'm saying here as some attempt to tell me I'm wrong because I'm absolutely not wrong here.

Other people have made these claims:

1. FH has too big an impact on how potent weaponswapping is. 

2. FH is the kind of trait that defines warrior gameplay to the point where not having it is actively detrimental

3. Discipline is a go-to traitline because of the importance for every warrior to have FH

These are all points that would not be hard for someone to conclude FH needs to be nerfed because if all of these points are true (and I'm not arguing they aren't) then it indicates FH is punches way above its weight class for its position as a Minor trait in a core traitline. VP is just the cherry on top because it shows my concern here isn't speculation ... it's actually come to pass that for similar reasons, VP was viewed by necro players as needing to be baseline ... and Anet nerfed VP for a reason that would address all the claims being made for FH above. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kodama.6453]

I think the underlying question which really needs to get answered if we want to evaluate if a trait needs to become baseline is "is this trait needed for a mechanic in this game to work properly?"

To pick up some examples mentioned in this entire discussion here again:

Illusionary Persona: Mesmer shatter skills without this trait relied entirely on clones reaching the target to detonate and do their thing. Now this might not always function in some situation, specifically in environments which are riddled with tons of AoE damage flying around. If the clones died on their way to the target, shatter abilities simply did nothing at all.

The trait illusionary persona enabled shatters to work without the requirement of squishy AI units having to reach a target without dying. Now shatter can always have a use. Sure, it requires the mesmer to be in melee range (at least for the enemy affecting shatters), but at least it's possible that these shatters do something even in environments which were basically shutting down clones completely.

Vital Persistence: This trait was reducing the decay rate of death shroud. This means a general (and pretty kitten strong) increase of performance of the shroud, but does it really change if this mechanic functions on a mechanical level? I think it doesn't. It was a strong trait which made performance of builds taking it way better, but all the mechanics still worked the exact same way. Making this baseline wouldn't have actually helped making death shroud function in situations it was not functioning in before.

This trait did not become baseline... instead, it got changed so it isn't that powerful that it is impossible to compete with for other traits. Making it baseline was not really required, because all mechanics it touched on were still working and doing their thing without it. They just didn't do them on the same power level as with this trait.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Now coming back to the topic of this thread.... looking at these 2 cases, I think that fast hands falls into the same tier as vital persistence.

Fast hands doesn't make changes to warrior which enable mechanics to work properly in situations they are otherwise shut down. It is a strong trait which improves the performance of the warrior class in general. But it is not something that is truly needed to prevent situations in which warrior mechanics stop functioning.

So I have to say that I kinda agree with Obtena to some extend.... even if not agreeing with their reasoning that much. But fast hands might actually be a candidate for nerfs, simply because it is a strong trait which improves so many aspects at the same time that it is basically just really hard for other traits to compete with it's power level.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

42 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I think the underlying question which really needs to get answered if we want to evaluate if a trait needs to become baseline is "is this trait needed for a mechanic in this game to work properly?"

To pick up some examples mentioned in this entire discussion here again:

Illusionary Persona: Mesmer shatter skills without this trait relied entirely on clones reaching the target to detonate and do their thing. Now this might not always function in some situation, specifically in environments which are riddled with tons of AoE damage flying around. If the clones died on their way to the target, shatter abilities simply did nothing at all.

The trait illusionary persona enabled shatters to work without the requirement of squishy AI units having to reach a target without dying. Now shatter can always have a use. Sure, it requires the mesmer to be in melee range (at least for the enemy affecting shatters), but at least it's possible that these shatters do something even in environments which were basically shutting down clones completely.

Vital Persistence: This trait was reducing the decay rate of death shroud. This means a general (and pretty kitten strong) increase of performance of the shroud, but does it really change if this mechanic functions on a mechanical level? I think it doesn't. It was a strong trait which made performance of builds taking it way better, but all the mechanics still worked the exact same way. Making this baseline wouldn't have actually helped making death shroud function in situations it was not functioning in before.

This trait did not become baseline... instead, it got changed so it isn't that powerful that it is impossible to compete with for other traits. Making it baseline was not really required, because all mechanics it touched on were still working and doing their thing without it. They just didn't do them on the same power level as with this trait.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Now coming back to the topic of this thread.... looking at these 2 cases, I think that fast hands falls into the same tier as vital persistence.

Fast hands doesn't make changes to warrior which enable mechanics to work properly in situations they are otherwise shut down. It is a strong trait which improves the performance of the warrior class in general. But it is not something that is truly needed to prevent situations in which warrior mechanics stop functioning.

So I have to say that I kinda agree with Obtena to some extend.... even if not agreeing with their reasoning that much. But fast hands might actually be a candidate for nerfs, simply because it is a strong trait which improves so many aspects at the same time that it is basically just really hard for other traits to compete with it's power level.

You are disregarding that fast hands changes the available burst and drives the usage of the profession mechanic and it's related traits, very much like IP.

[Kodama.6453]

9 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You are disregarding that fast hands changes the available burst and drives the usage of the profession mechanic and it's related traits, very much like IP.

I don't, really.

What fast hands does is making burst skills and therefore the usage of the class mechanic more efficient. Vital persistence did the same for death shroud. The slower decay rate was driving the usage of the death shroud and it's related traits. It greatly improved the performance of this class mechanic, but it didn't enable the class mechanic in situations it was completely malfunctioning in.

Illusionary persona on the other hand enabled the usage of shatter skills in situations they were absolutely unusable. If the clones died immediately, shatters did literally nothing without this trait. Making it baseline means that even without clones or even if clones are immediately killed, your shatters provide some value. It is not the biggest value possible, sure, but it is at least not absolutely nothing.

Fast hands allows you access to burst skills more frequently and variably. But it doesn't make burst skills do their job in situations they wouldn't without this trait. In all situations of this game burst skills with fast hands do their thing, they also do their thing without this trait.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Kodama.6453