Vindicator recommendations, notably skill flipping needs to return.

[Shao.7236]

Edit: Best Solution by Za Shaloc.3908

 

Having the ability to change by just tapping once more after using the skill is a great idea to keep skill flipping and it would be the best over what we have right now.

 

As long as the elite stays unique like so, bring it. Have it this way, you use a skill then it prompts a visual change to that slot with the ability to switch that skill slot to either and like said, if you don't press that button in time (3 seconds), it remains on the last one you used with it's attributed cooldown to which that cooldown is also depleted during the possible switch itself, don't have the CD pause like it's a channel of sort.

 

F2 should remain as Energy Meld, F3 should allow you to mass flip to Archemorus and grant offensive boons, F4 be the latter but to Saint Viktor and grant defensive boons, boons will justify the fact that you can be in already fully of dedicated to one of the alliance and still get benefit by using it. Both should have a cast time similar to Ancient Echo however their cooldown be the same 10 seconds. There's little exploit or broken mechanic here to be seen with such ability, it even simulates what most seems to be wanting if you have F3 and F4, never have to flip any skills, can just change in between.

 

Make it happen Anet, I may as well been on the side on going on the easy about it to save you hours, but this is the solution that could make everyone happy and that's the better way of doing it over not having anything at all for either sides.

 

Original post:

 

First to start with the elephant in the room, it wasn't skill flipping that bottlenecked the legend, it was the sudden stop of movement at the end of evade preventing effective use of it and the large consumption of energy on F2 ruining any potential follow ups that could would be possible without, considering swapping legends was always the only option afterwards. Being able to camp them now creates an incredibly overpowered amount shenanigans which the primary design wouldn't be possible and now requires an extremely horrendous amount of rework for several skills to balance which would be really bad and ruin it further. 

 

The need for switching to either Viktor or Archemorus became extremely trivial depending on the gamemode, notably Viktor for PvP/WvW because of the really powerful sustain and Archemorus for PvE because of the really high amount of damage that STILL doesn't make it anymore satisfying to most players which shows that no matter the way you do it, nothing will be suitable until you repeat ideas that already exist. Having a legend swap within a legend adds a lot of jank to the flow of Revenant as is arguably not really alike with the profession main design considering how easy it is to use skills over and over right now. Skill flipping was a great idea and mostly well executed with the skills themselves not needing a high CD either nor high costs because it would ruin the way things were, only the control over skill flipping at a high cost of energy was a poor decision because you can't do anything else like said before.

 

The separation of Energy Meld is a welcomed changed and it's not to say that it's entirely bad to have the ability to skill flip manually with a cast time, it's a good thing to do so if you bring back the old skill flipping. It's not if you keep it the way things are right now, reason being players are hard stuck with decisions as if it was a third legend instead of being able to hybrid at all based on their own decisions.

 

It's with clear intend that with no cost to force a flip, you give players just as much control without taking away the fun aspect of the legend because there's a flow available to keep up with. In a way putting forth that if players wanted to stay on the offense, they easily can by using up their offense skills, alliance skillflip, throw a weapon rotation, repeat offensive skills and by the time they're done, alliance is available again. Showing that having it's not necessary to force stances to stick since players can do it themselves with the existing mechanic being properly implemented with F3.

 

Now onto skills;

 

The Urn, I want to say that I love the idea behind that skill and I wish that it was more obvious to most at how it ain't so bad but in fact such an efficient way to heal others as a Revenant without much effort, it's often as simple as using it then dropping it to get already decent benefits. Please don't rework that skill, perhaps buff the heal on drop but otherwise, let it be the instant cast that it is.

 

Reaver's Rage, definitely needed this daze, it allows great opportunity to be offensive with the legend, keep that one in!

 

Mist Swing, all of the autoattack skills have REALLY poor reach and cleave compared about anything, this really needs to be fixed, someone has already showed it on reddit and to see how Rangers have such hitbox compared Rev's one, it's really unpleasant.

 

Mist Unleashed, range still needs to be increased. Like way more, at least around another half as it is a frontal cone. Match the animation if anything.

 

Phantom's Onslaught, misleading tool tip as the range is still wrong and doesn't even go close to half the range it suggests.

 

Imperial's Guard, the range is just as bad if not worst than the autoattack skills, this really needs to be increased as well.

 

Eternity's Requiem, this skill is a really neat thing to have in concept but the guaranteed hits are a really bad idea, it deals WAY too much damage from a PvP stand point as it focuses only one player if that's all there is which can deal insane damage (Up to 12k on heavy armor which is ridiculous coming from only one skill.) while in PvE can be extremely underwhelming because the AoE is based around the player which a lot of hits unless surrounded will miss, hence why the suggestion for it would be to make it a target AoE with 'no guaranteed hits' to avoid the bias of single target while increasing the potential hits on single targets, be large or small. I know that a lot of players may come at me and say "Unrelenting Assault is just as good if we compare them in 1v1!" well yeah but Unrelenting Assault doesn't deal in the whereabouts of 900 damage per hit on Berserker with the potential for more. Yes it can deal up to 10k with Impossible Odds but that's the thing, it's not just the skill itself alone, not to forget you can combine Impossible Odds with Eternity's Requiem also, ridiculous.

 

As for traits in mostly WvW/PvP;

 

Saint of Zu Heltzer, for the love of anything NERF that trait, 3k healing with 3k barrier without investing any Healing Power is beyond overpowered, at least reduce it by half entirely while higher co-efficients make up for that in PvP/WvW.

 

Imperial Impact, after evade protection is an extremely strong benefit. A nerf in between 4 or 3 seconds at least in PvP/WvW would really help that. The evade is much more accessible now and Revenant doesn't need permanent protection with all the Weakness it can already inflict.

 

Bugs;

 

Somehow, there's Quickness obtained when switching to Vindicator legend which I suspect Spirit Boon is the culprit and doesn't belong.

 

This is mostly what I think is objectively required from Vindicator to make everyone happy without also being weak or overpowered.

 

Also as a reminder if you're reading this Anet, please fix Revenant Hammer 2 (Coalescence of Ruins) AoE being too far up ahead of the player, making hits impossible at close range. You've balanced the damage on it there's no reason for that to occur, the sound is bugged as there is none and the speed at which the skill moves forward is much slower than it previously was. The hitbox as well is seemingly smaller than it used to be.

 

ᴵ ᶜᵒⁿᵍʳᵃᵗᵘˡᵃᵗᵉ ʸᵒᵘ ᶠᵒʳ ʳᵉᵃᵈᶦⁿᵍ ᵃˡˡ ᵗʰᵉ ʷᵃʸ ᵈᵒʷⁿ, ᵃᵗ ˡᵉᵃˢᵗ ᴵ ʰᵒᵖᵉ ʸᵒᵘ ᵈᶦᵈ.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Shao.7236
Missing parts. Added new solution. Typo.

[Raiken.1476]

The Vindicator definitely doesn't need nerfs, at the very least in PvE, it's still pretty weak. Skill flips were the worst possible thing to happen to the legend, and the legend at the moment, even without the gigantic nerf that skill flips were, still competes with Dwarf. Nerfing the two non-damage dodges... no comment, but also... Eternity's Requiem? If flips come back in any way, shape or form, I'm avoiding this spec entirely and maining Thief.

To add onto that though, the greatsword does need better cleave angles. That's the one good thing here. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Raiken.1476

[Shao.7236]

13 minutes ago, Raiken.1476 said:

The Vindicator definitely doesn't need nerfs, at the very least in PvE, it's still pretty weak. Skill flips were the worst possible thing to happen to the legend, and the legend at the moment, even without the gigantic nerf that skill flips were, still competes with Dwarf. Nerfing the two non-damage dodges... no comment, but also... Eternity's Requiem? This might just be the worst suggestion for the Vindicator I've read, and I've seen their original idea in beta 2.

 

As you should read for context whether it's PvE or not. Skill flips are a great design and only hated by the laziest because the old F2 was horrendously taxing to the point where nothing can be done following it, ever. It's actually possible to keep using offensive skills with a proper design with skill flips in the equation, as it should have been, only Anet GREATLY overestimated the potential.

 

It was called by many including me from several miles that Vindicator wouldn't shake up the meta builds and what would you know, we weren't set for disappointment at all. It won't as there is no way to without scrapping everything.

 

Are you also calling Dwarf bad? From PvE? Perhaps because it only provides irrelevant buffs and debuffs, from PvP/WvW? You need to really reconsider your statement. Saint Viktor alone in PvP/WvW is easily outsustain any kind of condition builds, better than Mallyx even if Mallyx actually still had proper Condition mitigation. Battledance is super cheesy and allow for so many evade chains that you don't even have to try.

 

GS5 is an absolute random meme that needs to be reworked into something proper and fair from every aspect that it is, implying that having it this way benefits anyone is a joke, GS as the weapon it is doesn't lack damage and wouldn't change in the slightest if it was for having a targeted AoE similar to Meteor Shower rather than "Guaranteed" hits.

 

You are laughably supporting the idea that it's okay to just evade spam around in PvP/WvW with little effort for survival which I don't get, did you even read anything? Just try to at least.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Raiken.1476]

11 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

 

As you should read for context whether it's PvE or not. Skill flips are a great design and only hated by the laziest because the old F2 was horrendously taxing to the point where nothing can be done following it, ever. It's actually possible to keep using offensive skills with a proper design with skill flips in the equation, as it should have been, only Anet GREATLY overestimated the potential.

 

It was called by many including me from several miles that Vindicator wouldn't shake up the meta builds and what would you know, we weren't set for disappointment at all. It won't as there is no way to without scrapping everything.

 

Are you also calling Dwarf bad? From PvE? Perhaps because it only provides irrelevant buffs and debuffs, from PvP/WvW? You need to really reconsider your statement. Saint Viktor alone in PvP/WvW is easily outsustain any kind of condition builds, better than Mallyx even if Mallyx actually still had proper Condition mitigation. Battledance is super cheesy and allow for so many evade chains that you don't even have to try.

 

GS5 is an absolute random meme that needs to be reworked into something proper and fair from every aspect that it is, implying that having it this way benefits anyone is a joke, GS as the weapon it is doesn't lack damage and wouldn't change in the slightest if it was for having a targeted AoE similar to Meteor Shower rather than "Guaranteed" hits.

 

You are laughably supporting the idea that it's okay to just evade spam around in PvP/WvW with little effort for survival which I don't get, did you even read anything? Just try to at least.

 

There's no reason to ever call the legend the Alliance when the skills flip. In an alliance, the legends work together, with skill flips, they work against each other. I'm not calling Dwarf bad, I'm calling Alliance still worse than Dwarf, the core class option. As for GS, I'd make the radius on the 5 smaller. Easier to avoid completely in PvP, more consistent in PvE.

[Shao.7236]

14 minutes ago, Raiken.1476 said:

 

There's no reason to ever call the legend the Alliance when the skills flip. In an alliance, the legends work together, with skill flips, they work against each other. I'm not calling Dwarf bad, I'm calling Alliance still worse than Dwarf, the core class option. As for GS, I'd make the radius on the 5 smaller. Easier to avoid completely in PvP, more consistent in PvE.

Taking turns is working together, having not to ever change skill sets is not. Wanting to stick to one skillset because "muh damage" is not valid towards your point.

 

You keep missing the point for GS5, forget it.

 

Alliance is not worst than Dwarf, arguably because of the lack of skill flipping, it's beyond overpowered in sustain and should you pray that nobody looks at you, damage is just key mashing because there's no consequence to it. It's easy to switch legends and roll away from danger in case anyone bothers to focus you, you won't be using that sustain anytime soon to back Arch because there is no skill flip, you'd have to drop all your damage to just start playing the overpowered boring sustain again until they get bored enough and leave, to which the only way to stop is completely wreck skills to have high energy cost.

 

There is no fun way to play Alliances as it is right now because you can't make use of it all in a balanced manner which like said goes against Revenant basic design anyway, you're meant to go on about everything, not be so selective.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Shao.7236

[BadSanta.6527]

1 hour ago, Raiken.1476 said:

The Vindicator definitely doesn't need nerfs, at the very least in PvE, it's still pretty weak. Skill flips were the worst possible thing to happen to the legend, and the legend at the moment, even without the gigantic nerf that skill flips were, still competes with Dwarf. Nerfing the two non-damage dodges... no comment, but also... Eternity's Requiem? If flips come back in any way, shape or form, I'm avoiding this spec entirely and maining Thief.

To add onto that though, the greatsword does need better cleave angles. That's the one good thing here. 

the op is imaginnig .. i agreee with you 100%

[Dawanarth.4601]

Vindicator from Beta 1 was in all it's implementation worse than in Beta 2 (They literally salvaged it), now I do like the skill flip system, I find it interesting and make sense (According to the lore of the espec/Legends) and I really would love to see a Vindicator with the skill flip again, but  bandaid is better than an impossible mechanic to control

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

The separation of Energy Meld is a welcomed changed and it's not to say that it's entirely bad to have the ability to skill flip manually with a cast time, it's a good thing to do so if you bring back the old skill flipping. It's not if you keep it the way things are right now, reason being players are hard stuck with decisions as if it was a third legend instead of being able to hybrid at all based on their own decisions.

 

It's with clear intend that with no cost to force a flip, you give players just as much control without taking away the fun aspect of the legend because there's a flow available to keep up with. In a way putting forth that if players wanted to stay on the offense, they easily can by using up their offense skills, alliance skillflip, throw a weapon rotation, repeat offensive skills and by the time they're done, alliance is available again. Showing that having it's not necessary to force stances to stick since players can do it themselves with the existing mechanic being properly implemented with F3.

One of the problem of the skill switch was the absence of control, you can only switch the whole line while what would be needed would be able to either switch certain skill or to lock certain skill (Like having 2 button that would force all the skills toward their Legend)

[Shao.7236]

49 minutes ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

Vindicator from Beta 1 was in all it's implementation worse than in Beta 2 (They literally salvaged it), now I do like the skill flip system, I find it interesting and make sense (According to the lore of the espec/Legends) and I really would love to see a Vindicator with the skill flip again, but  bandaid is better than an impossible mechanic to control

One of the problem of the skill switch was the absence of control, you can only switch the whole line while what would be needed would be able to either switch certain skill or to lock certain skill (Like having 2 button that would force all the skills toward their Legend)

Impossible mechanic really? It wasn't that difficult to play with it. The poor choices of what accompanied it was the reason why it felt underwhelming because it didn't work with it, it worked against it.

 

That is the purpose of the new F3 is to give players the ability to manage the mechanic. Which is fairly similar to Unravel from Weaver itself.

 

Can be certain that if Vindicator stays the way it is right now, I won't be touching it at all. Greatsword is already underwhelming enough, as it was also expected.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Shao.7236

[ShazaM.2583]

Vindicator is in a much better spot than the first beta. I had a blast playing it this time around. Not sure why you’re advocating for damage nerfs on a class that clearly needs tuning. The mechanic for gs5 is different, but right now it’s the big kahuna for vindicator. Don’t beg for them to take it away UNLESS numbers get tweaked.

 

also not sure why you’re calling for a nerf on Saint Zu. Not sure if you’re just trying to cripple the class or what the deal is - but it’s not overpowered at all. As is, this trait needs to stay. Again, unless we get a much needed damage tuning, I don’t see how this would balance anything.

 

I don’t really care if the skills flip or not to be honest with you - I could see an argument either way and honestly liked playing the legend both ways. Overall I thought dwarf was a touch stronger (which is disappointing since I was really looking forward to the new legend).

 

I agree with you on the bug for GS3, that’s kitten annoying. And I certainly agree that this class needs SOME kind of cc. 
 

There are also some other bugs that need to be worked out too, but I like to think that’s something that will be handled on release (fingers crossed?).

Overall I think it’s headed in the right direction and I’m looking forward to the finished result of the class.

Edited December 6, 2021 by ShazaM.2583

[Puck.3697]

Id rather nerfs then the flipping skills returning. I'm sorry but the flipping mechanic was a huge hindrance and would result in the legends quite litterally never used. 

We would just go back to shiro/jalis set up and ignore it's existence if the flipping skill returns 

ATM I think numbers do need tweaking alittle. 

GS5 feels like it hits too hard,

GS2 and GS3 feel like they hit too weak. 

Spear still doesn't do near enough damage to be relevant. I think you could add a stun onto it. 

I think our blocks second attack needs a form of CC such as a knock down. Maybe under conditions. As the ability ramps per strike blocked maybe if 2 attacks blocked we knock the target down or daze them. 

The dodge skill hitting for 7k in PvP might be alittle too much now we have the f2 restoring energy... The double leap is defintly very strong offensively. I dunno tho I had this traited to do more damage ontop of that the risk v reward factor of blowing defensives for damage. 

Although I question in proper spvp builds we will take the trait to turn it into a self/group heal that costs 50 energy down from 100. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

F3 is the death that skill flipping deserved. It has nothing to do with 'lazy'. The flipping made skills unmanageable. 

[Telgum.6071]

I really didn't like the flipping mechanic to be honest, at least not the original design. I prefer the current one by far (I still think the Arch skills are weak)

[Dawanarth.4601]

The current iteration is more than alright, it's just that the Alliance Archemorus and Saint Viktor's kit don't really feel like they belong to an Espec when compared to the Core Legend.

Herald was : to make signets work while having a energy cost (Since Signet wouldn't really work with a Revenant

Renegade was instead, having summons (Ranger's spirit)

Vindicator at first was the switching skills who were tied to each other, the first iteration failed, quite spectacularly if I may.

 

Anet did the safest thing, taking out the offending part but at the same time it also make it less special

[Jthug.9506]

I had a lot of fun in beta 2, never even used zu helter just FoD, if pressured camped st viktor, was surprised how much sustain there was, but I wouldn’t want to loose it because I felt too glassy without it.
 

Jalis/Mallyx we’re still very strong in wvw zergs because their upkeeps hit while in dodge. 

 

GS5 was crazy strong with FoD it was so good that I felt I would actually get more value out of it with 33% less damage and a 33% shorter cooldown, as it was often wasted overkill. Another interesting way to deal with GS5 would be to cut the damage but allow each circle to hit multiple people. If they make GS5 weaker but on a shorter cd it might also alleviate some of the OP’s concern about zu helter. In any case I think the pve damage is just right at the moment so I hope whatever happens with GS5 will not make the pve bench dps any lower than it is right now.

 

I would personally really love to see spear of archamoris moved to an fkey and a damage boosting upkeep skill put in the elite skill slot instead.

 

I’m going to chime in with the chorus of people who dislike the old skill flip system and don’t want it to return, however I think it would be even cooler if we could pick from either side as our default load out and flip all the skills with f3 like it is now.

 

The biggest problem I had with this beta was that spear of archamorus missed my target 9/10 times when I was using it near it’s maximum range even if they only moved a tiny bit, and then the few times it worked, I was disappointed in it’s low damage. I would very much like to see it be made into a homing pull, that way it could be used to get our targets into range of our great swords, and it would be very attractive to use in wvw for dealing with free casters during a keep siege.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Fueki.4753]

The flip mechanic was just gross. Removing that was the single best choice Arenanet could have done for it.

They way it is now, you always have the supportive abilities available if you want, without having to spend resources on the offensive ones (or the other way around).

Edited December 5, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Personally I liked the idea of skill flipping, but I did not like the execution. I found it unfun for a couple reasons primarily:

-There was a 10s cooldown between using the flipover skills. It felt like there was no flow to the legend, and I felt encouraged to camp the legend far too long to gain maximum value from it, rather than swapping legends more frequently. For Rev, I think legend swapping frequently should always be encouraged. With that said, the low cooldowns and energy costs of its new iteration allow for major legend camping as well. But I would rather them try to solve that differently than the old flipover mechanic.

-The old flipover mechanic encouraged completely wasting skills in order to cycle to what I wanted. Most notable was having to use urn as a dps in order to regain access to Spear, and having to use Scavenger Burst as a healer in order to regain access to Tree Song. You had the flip function which did indeed allow you to gain quicker access to skills, but it was honestly too much micromanagement for it to be legitimately fun or fluid. I played for probably 24 hours in the last beta for Vindi and adapted to it but still didn't enjoy it because it felt wrong and in poor design to waste skills.

 

I will give you that SV is probably too overtuned right now in its support potential and that Saint's Shield should have some of its strength moved from the base values to modifiers. But I would rather them solve that through different balance methods than the old flipover mechanic. 

 

Before these changes were implemented, my compromise suggestion to the flipover mechanic was that after using every Alliance skill, you had 3 seconds to flip that individual skill over to the other dude, giving you access to the flipover skill. If you choose not to flip it over, you keep that skill as is. The alliance swap skill could then go back to swapping each individual skill rather than the entire legend. Perhaps an energy discount could be implemented to encourage proper weaving of the alliances as well.

[Jthug.9506]

10 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Personally I liked the idea of skill flipping, but I did not like the execution. I found it unfun for a couple reasons primarily:

-There was a 10s cooldown between using the flipover skills. It felt like there was no flow to the legend, and I felt encouraged to camp the legend far too long to gain maximum value from it, rather than swapping legends more frequently. For Rev, I think legend swapping frequently should always be encouraged. With that said, the low cooldowns and energy costs of its new iteration allow for major legend camping as well. But I would rather them try to solve that differently than the old flipover mechanic.

-The old flipover mechanic encouraged completely wasting skills in order to cycle to what I wanted. Most notable was having to use urn as a dps in order to regain access to Spear, and having to use Scavenger Burst as a healer in order to regain access to Tree Song. You had the flip function which did indeed allow you to gain quicker access to skills, but it was honestly too much micromanagement for it to be legitimately fun or fluid. I played for probably 24 hours in the last beta for Vindi and adapted to it but still didn't enjoy it because it felt wrong and in poor design to waste skills.

 

I will give you that SV is probably too overtuned right now in its support potential and that Saint's Shield should have some of its strength moved from the base values to modifiers. But I would rather them solve that through different balance methods than the old flipover mechanic. 

 

Before these changes were implemented, my compromise suggestion to the flipover mechanic was that after using every Alliance skill, you had 3 seconds to flip that individual skill over to the other dude, giving you access to the flipover skill. If you choose not to flip it over, you keep that skill as is. The alliance swap skill could then go back to swapping each individual skill rather than the entire legend. Perhaps an energy discount could be implemented to encourage proper weaving of the alliances as well.

I think that’s a potentially good solution, especially with an energy discount. Although I would still prefer to be able to pick skills from both sides as my initial load out and use f3 to return them to my default with cooldowns reset if they did what you suggest here.

[VoodooChurch.6513]

Why not give players access to both legend's skills at the same time, then when you use one, it puts its counterpart on cooldown as well? That way you can take advantage of the alliance theme by having an expanded toolkit, but you can't use all of the skills right after one another. 

[Dawanarth.4601]

13 hours ago, Nachtmahr.7439 said:

Why not give players access to both legend's skills at the same time, then when you use one, it puts its counterpart on cooldown as well? That way you can take advantage of the alliance theme by having an expanded toolkit, but you can't use all of the skills right after one another. 

How wouId you see that expanded toolkit ? Taking into account that there in total 10 skill, and that the F1 and F2 are already taken, so we would go from F3 to F8 ? That's a lot of cooldown and for a lot of abilities.

 

 

[Shao.7236]

@Za Shaloc.3908Anything but what we're stuck with currently, it's hella boring and might as well just be two separate legends. A literal snooze fest and if they increase energy costs or add ridiculous cooldowns, you know how awful it's gonna feel.

 

Having the ability to change by just tapping once more after using the skill is a great idea to keep skill flipping and it would be the best over what we have right now.

 

As long as the elite stays unique like so, bring it. Have it this way, you use a skill then it prompts a visual change to that slot with the ability to switch that skill slot to either and like said, if you don't press that button in time (3 seconds), it remains on the last one you used with it's attributed cooldown to which that cooldown is also depleted during the possible switch itself, don't have the CD pause like it's a channel of sort.

 

F2 should remain as Energy Meld, F3 should allow you to mass flip to Archemorus and grant offensive boons, F4 be the latter but to Saint Viktor and grant defensive boons, boons will justify the fact that you can be in already fully of dedicated to one of the alliance and still get benefit by using it. Both should have a cast time similar to Ancient Echo however their cooldown be the same 10 seconds. There's little exploit or broken mechanic here to be seen with such ability, it even simulates what most seems to be wanting if you have F3 and F4, never have to flip any skills, can just change in between.

 

Make it happen Anet, I may as well been on the side on going on the easy about it to save you hours, but this is the solution that could make everyone happy and that's the better way of doing it over not having anything at all for either sides.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Shao.7236
Typo

[Dawanarth.4601]

7 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

F1 should remain as Energy Meld, F2 should allow you to mass flip to Archemorus and grant offensive boons, F3 be the latter but to Saint Viktor and grant defensive boons, boons will justify the fact that you can be in already fully of dedicated to one of the alliance and still get benefit by using it. Both should have a cast time similar to Ancient Echo however their cooldown be the same 10 seconds. There's little exploit or broken mechanic here to be seen with such ability, it even simulates what most seems to be wanting if you have F2 and F3, never have to flip any skills, can just change in between.

I even though about having those switches (Keeping F1 to switch normal legend, F3 being Energy Meld) have increased effect depending on the number of skill switched:

F2/Saint Viktor: Healing burst, Give boons depending on how many skill were switched (From 1 to 5)

F4/Archemorus: Move current Archemorus Elite; Give Boons depending on how many switch happened (From 1 to 5)

And then give a new Elite (And a continuous skill like all the other legends)

Both continuous skill would change only  upon exiting it

[Shao.7236]

15 minutes ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

I even though about having those switches (Keeping F1 to switch normal legend, F3 being Energy Meld) have increased effect depending on the number of skill switched:

F2/Saint Viktor: Healing burst, Give boons depending on how many skill were switched (From 1 to 5)

F4/Archemorus: Move current Archemorus Elite; Give Boons depending on how many switch happened (From 1 to 5)

And then give a new Elite (And a continuous skill like all the other legends)

Both continuous skill would change only  upon exiting it

Don't mind the F key mistakes. That completely went over my head. F1 should remain legend swap while the rest follows up to F4.

 

You'd want to have Energy Meld on F2 for the sake of consistency with normal legends. F3 and F4 could (If Anet puts in the effort.) have an effect while not using alliances or allow you to preset which of the Alliance you want as you'll return to next, but that may introduce jank unless we can make the effect exist even without it Alliances under legends picked by simply granting boons in it's least rewarding form.

Having consistent boons may be the best way of doing it so that it's less complicated to code in, however that's the important part here, giving players the choice of being able to start fresh in the skill set they want while outside the legend.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Silesium.5623]

What if we could pick from those 10 skills like other classes and mix match what we need.

[Dawanarth.4601]

We already have problem keeping the order of the skill the same all the time

[Jthug.9506]

49 minutes ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

We already have problem keeping the order of the skill the same all the time

You aren't wrong, and yet that's really not a reason to shoot down the idea. Anet just needs to devote the requisite engineering time to it, I highly doubt that they can budget that before eod. But perhaps this will finally be put to bed after eod, especially if they revamp vindicator to do what people are talking about here.