Vindicator recommendations, notably skill flipping needs to return.

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

You aren't wrong, and yet that's really not a reason to shoot down the idea. Anet just needs to devote the requisite engineering time to it, I highly doubt that they can budget that before eod. But perhaps this will finally be put to bed after eod, especially if they revamp vindicator to do what people are talking about here.

It'd be great if they did it the way suggested by Za Shaloc with my edited OP picking up on the idea, it promotes the early mechanic for those who enjoy it as well as those who prefer to camp skills.

 

The legend becomes a good hybrid with it's ability to mix re-using a mechanic similar to facets but not dedicated to having it activated when the skill is activated.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

I disagree that GS5 needs to be reworked at all.  Have you actually fought against anyone using it?  It has some of THE MOST obvious animations in the entire game.  Enemy GS5 all show up as red areas before they strike, not to mention the wind up obvious Gravedigger animation on the rev.  A single dodge on any class is enough to mitigate most/all the damage.  And quite frankly the skill wasn't great until they went from 3 to 5 guaranteed-to-spawn-under-enemies strikes.  If the damage is too high they can reduce it slightly for pvp/wvw.  As it is now, it's actually a fun skill to use and the only thing that makes me excited for the GS kit. 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Shao.7236]

51 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I disagree that GS5 needs to be reworked at all.  Have you actually fought against anyone using it?  It has some of THE MOST obvious animations in the entire game.  Enemy GS5 all show up as red areas before they strike, not to mention the wind up obvious Gravedigger animation on the rev.  A single dodge on any class is enough to mitigate most/all the damage.  And quite frankly the skill wasn't great until they went from 3 to 5 guaranteed-to-spawn-under-enemies strikes.  If the damage is too high they can reduce it slightly for pvp/wvw.  As it is now, it's actually a fun skill to use and the only thing that makes me excited for the GS kit. 

 

No dodge issue, don't care about that. It always had the guaranteed hits, only not on downs. The animation also is much faster, not that we care about that either. I think it's stupid that you can't redirect it anywhere and have most of your hits be wasted behind you instead of getting someone stuck in the middle of it all. The skill tooltip was a re-use of Meteor Shower.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Shao.7236

[VoodooChurch.6513]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:05 AM, Dawanarth.4601 said:

How wouId you see that expanded toolkit ? Taking into account that there in total 10 skill, and that the F1 and F2 are already taken, so we would go from F3 to F8 ? That's a lot of cooldown and for a lot of abilities.

In my head, what I saw was the skills on the right bisected diagonally with the artwork for each skill on its respective portion of the button. I realize this isn't necessarily the most aesthetically pleasing idea, but it's what I came up with off the top of my head. 

 

As far as the keys go, for my skills I use Shift +1 (heal) then Q, E, R, and C for the other skills. I just figured I'd keybind Shift+Q, Shift+R, etc. for the corresponding skills from the other legend. The increase in keybinds is definitely a weak point in the idea. As is the potential visual representation I envisioned.

 

Ultimately, the point behind my suggestion was the idea that the Alliance legends' abilities should interact in some way. As it stands, we have what amounts to three separate legends - which apparently works better than the flipping from a functional standpoint. However,  I think that leaving it that way represents a missed opportunity to make the Elite spec stand out from Herald and Renegade. Sort of like how rifle Deadeye is a shift in gameplay from what one might expect from a typical thief build, and Specter is an even further departure from the greedy, backstabbing thief archetype. 

 

The way in which Arch and St. Viktor should interact is certainly up in the air, and if other people have better ideas, I'm all for it. 

 

 

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

How about no?

[Joxer.6024]

Just allow both on one bar, mix and match, thus an actual "alliance".  simples....

[wolfyrik.2017]

I still think my way would have been better. Urn becomes the heal but the self damage removed, spear says the same. Using heal flips you to Viki. Using Spear flips you to Archie. Utilities are made the same basic skill on each flip in terms of stun breaks and movement skills or viki should be made forward movement, archi should be backwards movement on the utility. Heck you could juice up the heal if you're already on viki, making it more powerful but a longer cooldown. Spear gets more damage but longer cooldown when on Archie.

This way you keep the flips to a degree, but now they feel like they're working in tandem rather than against you. Your skill needs are met as there's always a reliable utility where you want it, when you want it as only the flavour of buffs, number of condi cleanses etc is changed.

Meh, anet will as anet will. We can only try to work with it or ignore it.

Me, I'll probably ignore it at this point. I don't think there's a single EoD elite left that I have any interest in. None of them anymore have anything of value over pre-existing specs that I can see and none of them have any gampleay that looks interesting or unique. Maybe spectre? Meh. Vini was DoA for me and it remains that way. The removal of flips makes it less awful but I still don't see any reason to run it over Herald or Renegade and plenty of reasons not to.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Skill flipping on use isn't necessary. The new F3 is actually really nice. The ONLY problem with it is that it has a cast time. Remove that, and it's gold. 

[Loopgru.1026]

If flipping comes back the espec is DoA for me. It made it impossible to specialize in PvE, and in PvP it was unreliable and took too much attention on the UI / current state of your bar.

 

That said, for a compromise I'd crib a note from Warframe here. What about tap/hold functionality to grant access to either skill on demand? They'd need to share a cooldown, which seems fair, but if that could be implemented it would be pretty great to have ready access to either Vicky or Archie skills on demand- tap for Luxon, hold for Kurzick.

[Jthug.9506]

9 minutes ago, Loopgru.1026 said:

If flipping comes back the espec is DoA for me. It made it impossible to specialize in PvE, and in PvP it was unreliable and took too much attention on the UI / current state of your bar.

 

That said, for a compromise I'd crib a note from Warframe here. What about tap/hold functionality to grant access to either skill on demand? They'd need to share a cooldown, which seems fair, but if that could be implemented it would be pretty great to have ready access to either Vicky or Archie skills on demand- tap for Luxon, hold for Kurzick.

I'd be ok with a 2-3 sec window with an option to flip after casting, like you I am not ok with getting locked out with no choice.

[Shao.7236]

On 12/8/2021 at 3:47 AM, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Skill flipping on use isn't necessary. The new F3 is actually really nice. The ONLY problem with it is that it has a cast time. Remove that, and it's gold. 

Legend swap within legend is still a boring concept that doesn't belong in this theme. Better ways to do this for Revenant to achieve new levels of hybrid. Removing the cast time is just a band-aid on top of the other.

 

2 hours ago, Loopgru.1026 said:

If flipping comes back the espec is DoA for me. It made it impossible to specialize in PvE, and in PvP it was unreliable and took too much attention on the UI / current state of your bar.

 

That said, for a compromise I'd crib a note from Warframe here. What about tap/hold functionality to grant access to either skill on demand? They'd need to share a cooldown, which seems fair, but if that could be implemented it would be pretty great to have ready access to either Vicky or Archie skills on demand- tap for Luxon, hold for Kurzick.

 

No such thing in this game as holding, only channeling. Re-using Herald facet mechanics with a timer is a more efficient way to allow skills to go back and forth. Did you read at all? Or completely ignore everything like what seems a majority that hates the concept of true Hybrid while giving the best of both world at the small compromise of all skills at least have a 3 seconds CD but Urn no longer being spammable? 3 seconds is literally invisible to the skills themselves as they have it all already (Other than Urn).

 

2 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I'd be ok with a 2-3 sec window with an option to flip after casting, like you I am not ok with getting locked out with no choice.

 

At least more people seems to understand, slowly. That window doesn't even change the flow of the legend that most want in a basic manner while also improving it greatly for the others that wants to go a step further by mix, match and hybrid like a true Alliance because that was the intend since the beginning.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

doesn't even change the flow of the legend that most want in a basic manner while also improving it greatly for the others that wants to go a step further by mix, match and hybrid like a true Alliance because that was the intend since the beginning

While it was intended. We have to consider practicality. 

It wasn't a practical design realistically, it was always going to hold the proffession back in all content. Vindicator had no chance of being close to meta on such a design. 

It's a cool idea in theory. But it prevents the player being able to use the utility the moment calls for. 

A practical concept is better then a exciting concept, look at harbingers attempt at being exciting with its blight mechanic... We all know it's gonna be balancing hell and the speccs gonna take continous leaps and dives.. balancing that out is a headache and won't ever work.

And even tho it's unique and different. No ones excited. Because we are all expecting necro to remain scourge for another expansion 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

While it was intended. We have to consider practicality. 

It wasn't a practical design realistically, it was always going to hold the proffession back in all content. Vindicator had no chance of being close to meta on such a design. 

It's a cool idea in theory. But it prevents the player being able to use the utility the moment calls for. 

A practical concept is better then a exciting concept, look at harbingers attempt at being exciting with its blight mechanic... We all know it's gonna be balancing hell and the speccs gonna take continous leaps and dives.. balancing that out is a headache and won't ever work.

And even tho it's unique and different. No ones excited. Because we are all expecting necro to remain scourge for another expansion 

Did you read at all or just the title? Many are asking for skillflips to stay on "demand", it's not a hard concept to grasp, neither does it influence skill camping because all skills but one have cooldowns that meet the design, the gameplay hardly changes while allowing those who wants to take it a step further in hybrid and mixing.

 

Actually now it begs the question, does anybody read at all anyway? I wonder. So much hate for an idea that doesn't affect them or barely if those players care about Urn spamming though no one but a select few counted on one hand do.

[Puck.3697]

21 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Did you read at all or just the title? Many are asking for skillflips to stay on "demand", it's not a hard concept to grasp, neither does it influence skill camping because all skills but one have cooldowns that meet the design, the gameplay hardly changes while allowing those who wants to take it a step further in hybrid and mixing.

 

Actually now it begs the question, does anybody read at all anyway? I wonder. So much hate for an idea that doesn't affect them or barely if those players care about Urn spamming though no one but a select few counted on one hand do.

because what ur asking for.. i dont think they can actually make happen.. u want buttons that multi-function and hand the player the choice between flipping or remaining every push?

Not only would this Cause complication under heated Periods such as SPVP where mistakes could be made trashing their play from there.

the decision isnt Reversible til the next use of the same ability Unlike right now.

This is a game that to this day hasnt fixed the bug with revs utility bars. and ontop of that has back piece wardrobe items which litterally lag players.

im NGL i dont think ur idea is implementable, remember this games Incredibly old and at this point the coding is quite litteral spaghetti.

[Shao.7236]

32 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

because what ur asking for.. i dont think they can actually make happen.. u want buttons that multi-function and hand the player the choice between flipping or remaining every push?

Not only would this Cause complication under heated Periods such as SPVP where mistakes could be made trashing their play from there.

the decision isnt Reversible til the next use of the same ability Unlike right now.

This is a game that to this day hasnt fixed the bug with revs utility bars. and ontop of that has back piece wardrobe items which litterally lag players.

im NGL i dont think ur idea is implementable, remember this games Incredibly old and at this point the coding is quite litteral spaghetti.

Bugs with Revenant utility was introduced the same day that we couldn't switch legends mid-air at the same time as build templates showed, they can fix that if they care enough.

 

Same thing goes for Vindicator requested design here, they can do it. They have all the foundation and existing examples to put it together, several skills already have such time limit before returning to their prior use, how hard could it be to stitch in between the old vindicator flips a timer that works the same as those that already exist?

 

Press skill, cast skill then offer swap timer, if false, return, if true, continue. Rinse and repeat.

 

Not as hard given nothing is final and still in development, it's best we put the word out there before everything ends up to be final and they start building on top of it.

 

It's the best of both worlds and neither players preference gets the short end of the stick because we both get to play in different ways without hindering each other. Yes, Anet is the one that has to face the problem but it's their job to figure it out, they are paid for it, we are the one giving money to them, we should demand effort as such.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Bugs with Revenant utility was introduced the same day that we couldn't switch legends mid-air at the same time as build templates showed, they can fix that if they care enough.

 

Same thing goes for Vindicator requested design here, they can do it. They have all the foundation and existing examples to put it together, several skills already have such time limit before returning to their prior use, how hard could it be to stitch in between the old vindicator flips a timer that works the same as those that already exist?

 

Not as hard given nothing is final and still in development, it's best we put the word out there before everything ends up to be final and they start building on top of it.

 

It's the best of both worlds and neither players preference gets the short end of the stick because we both get to play in different ways without hindering each other. Yes, is the one that is faced with the problem but it's their job to figure it out, they are paid for it, we are the one giving money to them, we should demand effort as such.

Then clearly your faith is much larger then mine... I can only see it leading to complications. 

Well ofcourse I'm the customer. But I'm not exactly going to start threatening my wallet at something that has no bearing on my enjoyability. 

With or without this. There is every possibility vindicator comes out and is trash, they could nerf it, theres no gsruntee to the final point of the specc. I don't generally buy expansions on the base of a single elite in a mmorpg it's a risky one to bet one 

Espically as I can't think of many situations you would take vindicator over renegade to begin with 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Shao.7236]

7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Then clearly your faith is much larger then mine... I can only see it leading to complications. 

Well ofcourse I'm the customer. But I'm not exactly going to start threatening my wallet at something that has no bearing on my enjoyability. 

With or without this. There is every possibility vindicator comes out and is trash, they could nerf it, theres no gsruntee to the final point of the specc. I don't generally buy expansions on the base of a single elite in a mmorpg it's a risky one to bet one 

Espically as I can't think of many situations you would take vindicator over renegade to begin with 

I would 100% play Vindicator if the design was pushed forward to be in the light of the initial ideas rather than the direction that it took because while skill flips were a majority of the complain, it's not the only thing that added jank.

 

GS skills don't work like a GS should, evades would be almost impossible to benefit or hit anyone with. Alliances/Meld took away 20 freaking percent of energy, killing most follow ups, like what's the point to force flip if you can't even use the skills? Anyway.

 

It's not just faith, we are in early development still until they start screwing the lids on top of the pot, it's important to let them know hence the feedback threads. I will still play the game because I wanted this new content, however it'd be great that this content is pushed properly, this is me coming from PvP who uses Hammer a lot as Revenant as well, still demanding a proper skill fix after 2 years now.

 

As you said yourself, most will still play Renegade but at least give plenty more incentive to have other choices by making those choices enjoyable.

 

Alliances can be a lot of fun if they really try.

 

 

[Dawanarth.4601]

What if they gave a really reduced switching but skill on cooldown take 50% longer on cool down when not in the bar

So if you use a Kurzic skill that has a 10 sec cool down and remain in Kurzic it remain at 10 sec

But if you switch to Luxon it become 15 sec instead, and back to 10 if you come back to Kurzic

Use skill: 10 sec

2 sec later you switch to Luxon: 12 sec =(10-2)x1.5

6 sec later you switch back to Kurzic: 4 sec =(12-6)/1.5

 

Then the ratio can be adjusted to better support the frequent skill changes (as you would want to put base many skill that you'd want

[Loopgru.1026]

6 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Legend swap within legend is still a boring concept that doesn't belong in this theme. Better ways to do this for Revenant to achieve new levels of hybrid. Removing the cast time is just a band-aid on top of the other.

Most of us don't want the Vindicator to "achieve new levels of hybrid"- we already have Herald that offers exactly that. Vindicator, with a big crunchy GS, represents an opportunity for Revenant to finally have a respectable power build.

 

The current solution with a manual flip does exactly that. Vicky is there on the off chance that I need an occasional oh kitten button and otherwise stays out of the way and lets me play aggressively and do damage, which is perfect. Your suggestion is clunky, more likely to result in accidental, unwanted skill flips than any actual improvement in utility.

 

6 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Did you read at all? Or completely ignore everything like what seems a majority that hates the concept of true Hybrid while giving the best of both world at the small compromise of all skills at least have a 3 seconds CD but Urn no longer being spammable? 3 seconds is literally invisible to the skills themselves as they have it all already (Other than Urn).

Don't conflate disagreement and ignorance. If you want a "true Hybrid," play Herald instead of messing up the power spec.

 

More generally... what content is it that you're doing where you think that this kind of multirole spec is going to shine? What gear stats would support it? Like some sort of Crusader or Celestial open world build?

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Loopgru.1026 said:

Most of us don't want the Vindicator to "achieve new levels of hybrid"- we already have Herald that offers exactly that. Vindicator, with a big crunchy GS, represents an opportunity for Revenant to finally have a respectable power build.

 

The current solution with a manual flip does exactly that. Vicky is there on the off chance that I need an occasional oh kitten button and otherwise stays out of the way and lets me play aggressively and do damage, which is perfect. Your suggestion is clunky, more likely to result in accidental, unwanted skill flips than any actual improvement in utility.

 

Don't conflate disagreement and ignorance. If you want a "true Hybrid," play Herald instead of messing up the power spec.

 

More generally... what content is it that you're doing where you think that this kind of multirole spec is going to shine? What gear stats would support it? Like some sort of Crusader or Celestial open world build?

 

Set for disappointment were you? Many called it from miles that it wouldn't do anything. The hype surrounding a "respectable power spec", give me a break and play some Core Rev for once, who can literally output 25k DPS by just pressing one button for days while spikes raise to possible 35k. That's already way above the minimum requirement of 15k.

 

Herald is not even close to be an Hybrid support, more in line with being a hybrid damage, it fails to do many things such as mere cleansing of teammates that I and many recommended Anet to improve shield skills to be no longer so selfish. Dwarf fills that role better by just being able to cut all damage in half, Alliances is and by design will always be made to be an hybrid spec for the simple fact that it's in the lore itself.

 

It's not written anywhere that Alliances was supposed to be DPS, let alone the fact that because we get a GS that it should be DPS, where's Warrior respected power DPS GS or any DPS GS specs for that matter? What makes Revenant anymore deserving? Why are we so tied to ruining any fun by constantly min maxing everything before it even comes out?

 

Your points make no sense, accidental skillflip? You imply that as if no one can't ever accidently press anything. It's part of the game for you to not make that mistake and you're going to let an entire aspect of a new legend be ruined by that? Get real, that's low, considering how skills don't even go on CD right away, it wouldn't be possible to switch instantly.

 

This solution adds on top of the already basic skill camping, players that want more shouldn't have to cope for those who accidently press buttons. My suggestion (Which is Za Shaloc general genius if anything) is not clunky in the slightest, if you can't handle it, that's more like a player issue. You can't go "oh kitten" with Vindicator because there's not such thing as having mixed skills or swapping to the "oh kitten" skills while already stuck in the "oh kitten" moment. By the time you stunbreak on Arch and switch to Viktor, you're already dead, that wouldn't happen if you could manage skills yourself, better than having to entiiiiiirely switch your set and pause damage altogether for 10 seconds with a small cast time, you might as well Legend swap and be done with it.

 

It's even more insulting to the concept after Alliances that most skills can synergize well in between but gets bottlenecked by this entire skill swap cast and CD. Like it baffles me that you think that having the ability to use Scavenger's Burst followed by Treesong on demand is bad and you'd prefer having to stunbreak and swap everything at once just to likely swap legends again after.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Part of why I am in favor of choice-based skill flipping on the utility skills it to make the legend feel more interlaced and self-incorporated than it currently does. Previously the skill flipping felt clunky, inefficient, and wasteful, and now it just feels dry and lacking depth. Current Vindicator really just doesn't meet that thoughtful and complex mark that I was really hoping to get in our new e-spec. I want to see both Saint Viktor and Archemorus really have the option of working together rather than exclusively separatelty and one at a time. It is a way of "having your cake and eating it too."

 

The current iteration feels like a quick bandaid solution to perhaps test out the opposite extreme to what existed in the first beta round, and I really hope ANet takes the time to meet halfway with both versions of the alliance to bring the best of both worlds. In its current form I will play the heck out of a support build without a doubt, but I am still unsatisfied with their vision of making an actually complex, thoughtful, and fluid mechanic. I don't really see how this idea would interfere with those who want to play a pure-Arch-or-SV-except-for-emergency playstyle as it still allows you to camp whichever skills you want to camp due to the 3-second window. Accidentally twitch-flipping skills shouldn't really happen if they implement it properly and give it a short ICD. Bad example of incomplete implementation is Virtuoso sword 3, which will cancel the leap and insta port back; ANet can and should easily fix these issues just like any other flipover skills.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Jthug.9506]

Ehh in actual practice the current system is extremely strong. If I know I’m going to be in trouble I’ll just camp the blue skills for a minute until I am feeling comfy enough to go aggressive again. Is it less engaging? I don’t actually think so, I’ll probably be swapping a lot in every game mode, hopefully less so in raids, but there’s times when a group cleanse and a group stun break are the right play. 

[Dawanarth.4601]

30 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Ehh in actual practice the current system is extremely strong. If I know I’m going to be in trouble I’ll just camp the blue skills for a minute until I am feeling comfy enough to go aggressive again. Is it less engaging? I don’t actually think so, I’ll probably be swapping a lot in every game mode, hopefully less so in raids, but there’s times when a group cleanse and a group stun break are the right play. 

True, but the most likely theme of mechanical them for the Vindicator was the always present switching between Kurzic and Luxon. the current iteration doesn't promote that style of play, rather keeping the Luxon side as a safety net and then switching back to Kurzic

 

Have the switching/F3 on a smaller cooldown (CD 10s->2s) but have the cooldown remain even when not in legend (Have them higher when out of legend but remain the same as currently when in legend)

[Kidel.2057]

Terrible suggestions. The class mechanics of beta 4 are fine, with the overwhelming majority of players happy about the changes. They just need to tweak the numbers to make Vindicator stronger in pve. There is some great feedback given in the main thread. 

Also give it some visual appeal. The spec is visually super boring. 

[Puck.3697]

On 12/10/2021 at 2:51 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Set for disappointment were you? Many called it from miles that it wouldn't do anything. The hype surrounding a "respectable power spec", give me a break and play some Core Rev for once, who can literally output 25k DPS by just pressing one button for days while spikes raise to possible 35k. That's already way above the minimum requirement of 15k.

 

Herald is not even close to be an Hybrid support, more in line with being a hybrid damage, it fails to do many things such as mere cleansing of teammates that I and many recommended Anet to improve shield skills to be no longer so selfish. Dwarf fills that role better by just being able to cut all damage in half, Alliances is and by design will always be made to be an hybrid spec for the simple fact that it's in the lore itself

Given vindicator is now a 37k power DPS, it's a leading power DPS now. 

And 15k minimum 25k for a pure DPS isn't even acceptable. 35k DPS is the minimum anything lower is a joke lol. 

Heralds only functionality is boon herald.. it's DPS is a joke Also. 

Skill flipping was one of the largest critics of the elite and had alot more negativity around it then positivity. That's why it's gone. Anet are gonna cater to the feedback the majority follow realistically it's never gonna appease everyone. 

And accidently pressing a average ability is fine. Accidently swapping to urn in spvp puts you without a elite lol